Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
 

In article <moomesa-6BB8BB.12550424112004@news-east.newsfeeds.com>,
Jeepers <moomesa@INVALIDfnbnet.net> wrote:

> In article <hJ4pd.91466$T02.37417@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>,
> "c" <c@me.org> wrote:
>
> > My physics is a bit rusty here, but IIRC, the pressure created at the bottom
> > opening will be equal to the weight of a water column (which is the area of
> > the opening x the height of the water column). This applies whether the
> > bottom opening is at the side or on the bottom. A fluid exerts equal
> > pressure against all sides of its container that it is in contact with. What
> > this means in essence is that it would take slightly less energy to bottom
> > fill. Any fluid in a container has some amount of stored energy, The wider
> > and shorter the container is, the less energy it will take to fill it.
> >
> > Also, like the others said, the energy required to top fill will remain
> > constant as the barrel fills. For bottom filling, the energy will start out
> > slightly less, and end up the same as the barrel reaches full.
> >
> > Chris
>
> O.K. my lame-ass attempt at physics argument:
>
> Isn't part of the column the barrel? The barrel has a bigger column in
> it's part, than the hose. So the weight of the water column is GREATLY
> larger than the one in the hose going to the top. Less water - less
> weight, right?

I'm with you on this one -
The barrel has a lager cross-section than the hose. Much like the
pistons in a kiddie-toy-simple two-ram hydraulic system - Big piston
pushes on fluid, sending it throrugh the lines to wherever the work
needs to be done, where it presses against a smaller piston. Thethe
smaller piston can be seeing *RIDICULOUSLY HUGE* amounts of pressure
from a very light pressure being applied to the larger piston (The
multiplication of force effect that comes from the larger piston
displacing more fluid)

My take on this is that filling from the top would put take less effort
from the pump - Rather than needing to fight both its own "head" (The
size of the tube multiplied by the height it's climbing, if I remember
rightly) AND the "head" in the barrel, the pump only has to push against
it's own head until it's above the highest point of the barrel, where
gravity takes over and delivers it the rest of the way.

Pumping to the bottom of the barrel means a steadily increasing head in
the barrel as the barrel gets fuller. To go with the head developed in
the fill hose. The pump has to overcome that "total head" to get
anything more into the barrel.

How to test this theory:
Put a pressure gauge at the lowest point of the system after the pump -
right at the pump outlet would be ideal. Now fill the hose with water
(You'll probably have to block the pump's intake to get any reading at
all), and raise it into posiiton to fill from the top. What's the gauge
say?

Now hook the hose to the bottom bung, make sure it's full of water, then
pump until the top barrel is full. Shut down the pump and block the
intake as before, and read the gauge. What's it say now?

My nickel says that the "from the bottom" setup is going to show a
higher PSI than the setup to fill from the top.

--
Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html> for full details.

Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
 

In article <moomesa-6BB8BB.12550424112004@news-east.newsfeeds.com>,
Jeepers <moomesa@INVALIDfnbnet.net> wrote:

> In article <hJ4pd.91466$T02.37417@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>,
> "c" <c@me.org> wrote:
>
> > My physics is a bit rusty here, but IIRC, the pressure created at the bottom
> > opening will be equal to the weight of a water column (which is the area of
> > the opening x the height of the water column). This applies whether the
> > bottom opening is at the side or on the bottom. A fluid exerts equal
> > pressure against all sides of its container that it is in contact with. What
> > this means in essence is that it would take slightly less energy to bottom
> > fill. Any fluid in a container has some amount of stored energy, The wider
> > and shorter the container is, the less energy it will take to fill it.
> >
> > Also, like the others said, the energy required to top fill will remain
> > constant as the barrel fills. For bottom filling, the energy will start out
> > slightly less, and end up the same as the barrel reaches full.
> >
> > Chris
>
> O.K. my lame-ass attempt at physics argument:
>
> Isn't part of the column the barrel? The barrel has a bigger column in
> it's part, than the hose. So the weight of the water column is GREATLY
> larger than the one in the hose going to the top. Less water - less
> weight, right?

I'm with you on this one -
The barrel has a lager cross-section than the hose. Much like the
pistons in a kiddie-toy-simple two-ram hydraulic system - Big piston
pushes on fluid, sending it throrugh the lines to wherever the work
needs to be done, where it presses against a smaller piston. Thethe
smaller piston can be seeing *RIDICULOUSLY HUGE* amounts of pressure
from a very light pressure being applied to the larger piston (The
multiplication of force effect that comes from the larger piston
displacing more fluid)

My take on this is that filling from the top would put take less effort
from the pump - Rather than needing to fight both its own "head" (The
size of the tube multiplied by the height it's climbing, if I remember
rightly) AND the "head" in the barrel, the pump only has to push against
it's own head until it's above the highest point of the barrel, where
gravity takes over and delivers it the rest of the way.

Pumping to the bottom of the barrel means a steadily increasing head in
the barrel as the barrel gets fuller. To go with the head developed in
the fill hose. The pump has to overcome that "total head" to get
anything more into the barrel.

How to test this theory:
Put a pressure gauge at the lowest point of the system after the pump -
right at the pump outlet would be ideal. Now fill the hose with water
(You'll probably have to block the pump's intake to get any reading at
all), and raise it into posiiton to fill from the top. What's the gauge
say?

Now hook the hose to the bottom bung, make sure it's full of water, then
pump until the top barrel is full. Shut down the pump and block the
intake as before, and read the gauge. What's it say now?

My nickel says that the "from the bottom" setup is going to show a
higher PSI than the setup to fill from the top.

--
Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html> for full details.

Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
 

In article <moomesa-6BB8BB.12550424112004@news-east.newsfeeds.com>,
Jeepers <moomesa@INVALIDfnbnet.net> wrote:

> In article <hJ4pd.91466$T02.37417@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>,
> "c" <c@me.org> wrote:
>
> > My physics is a bit rusty here, but IIRC, the pressure created at the bottom
> > opening will be equal to the weight of a water column (which is the area of
> > the opening x the height of the water column). This applies whether the
> > bottom opening is at the side or on the bottom. A fluid exerts equal
> > pressure against all sides of its container that it is in contact with. What
> > this means in essence is that it would take slightly less energy to bottom
> > fill. Any fluid in a container has some amount of stored energy, The wider
> > and shorter the container is, the less energy it will take to fill it.
> >
> > Also, like the others said, the energy required to top fill will remain
> > constant as the barrel fills. For bottom filling, the energy will start out
> > slightly less, and end up the same as the barrel reaches full.
> >
> > Chris
>
> O.K. my lame-ass attempt at physics argument:
>
> Isn't part of the column the barrel? The barrel has a bigger column in
> it's part, than the hose. So the weight of the water column is GREATLY
> larger than the one in the hose going to the top. Less water - less
> weight, right?

I'm with you on this one -
The barrel has a lager cross-section than the hose. Much like the
pistons in a kiddie-toy-simple two-ram hydraulic system - Big piston
pushes on fluid, sending it throrugh the lines to wherever the work
needs to be done, where it presses against a smaller piston. Thethe
smaller piston can be seeing *RIDICULOUSLY HUGE* amounts of pressure
from a very light pressure being applied to the larger piston (The
multiplication of force effect that comes from the larger piston
displacing more fluid)

My take on this is that filling from the top would put take less effort
from the pump - Rather than needing to fight both its own "head" (The
size of the tube multiplied by the height it's climbing, if I remember
rightly) AND the "head" in the barrel, the pump only has to push against
it's own head until it's above the highest point of the barrel, where
gravity takes over and delivers it the rest of the way.

Pumping to the bottom of the barrel means a steadily increasing head in
the barrel as the barrel gets fuller. To go with the head developed in
the fill hose. The pump has to overcome that "total head" to get
anything more into the barrel.

How to test this theory:
Put a pressure gauge at the lowest point of the system after the pump -
right at the pump outlet would be ideal. Now fill the hose with water
(You'll probably have to block the pump's intake to get any reading at
all), and raise it into posiiton to fill from the top. What's the gauge
say?

Now hook the hose to the bottom bung, make sure it's full of water, then
pump until the top barrel is full. Shut down the pump and block the
intake as before, and read the gauge. What's it say now?

My nickel says that the "from the bottom" setup is going to show a
higher PSI than the setup to fill from the top.

--
Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html> for full details.

Re: OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
 

"volume" has nothing to do with pressure. 'Only' the 'vertical height'
(static head) is what requires the pressure; or, in another way....
each 2.31 feet (in the vertical direction) of water is equal to 1 psi.
So, if the total height of pumping (includes the height of water in the
barrel) is 23.1 ft. it will take 10 psi to 'push' it that far up

If you slowly submerge a pressure gauge into a large container of
water, the gage will read 1 psi at 2.31 ft. submergence, 5 psi @ 11.6
feet, 100 psi @ 231 ft. ..... and it doesnt matter if the container is
a vertical soda straw or the Atlantic Ocean.
;-)


In article <moomesa-60D31E.14054824112004@news-east.newsfeeds.com>,
Jeepers <moomesa@INVALIDfnbnet.net> wrote:

> In article <241120041442412259%RhmpL33@nospam.net>,
> Rich Hampel <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote:
>
> > If the fill hose touches the bottom of the barrel that is being
> > filled..... then each system will require the same exact pressure to
> > fill: The pressure required is the weight of the column of water
> > (static head); but, since the hose that goes over the top will partly
> > siphon (the distance from the top of the barrel to the bottomof the
> > barrel) the pressure requirements will be the same. The only
> > difference is that for 'starting' the hose that goes over the top, will
> > require more pressure to lift the water to the top of the bend, but
> > once the water entirely fills the hose and the sipon effect starts,
> > then either system will require the same pressure. whew!
>
> I was clear, no hose over the top. 3 bungs on side of barrel, two at
> top, one at bottom. One top one is vent the other is fill.
>
> Why isn't the additional water in the barrel not included as the static
> head on the lower fill? There is tremendously more volume in the barrel
> at, say half way.

Re: OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
 

"volume" has nothing to do with pressure. 'Only' the 'vertical height'
(static head) is what requires the pressure; or, in another way....
each 2.31 feet (in the vertical direction) of water is equal to 1 psi.
So, if the total height of pumping (includes the height of water in the
barrel) is 23.1 ft. it will take 10 psi to 'push' it that far up

If you slowly submerge a pressure gauge into a large container of
water, the gage will read 1 psi at 2.31 ft. submergence, 5 psi @ 11.6
feet, 100 psi @ 231 ft. ..... and it doesnt matter if the container is
a vertical soda straw or the Atlantic Ocean.
;-)


In article <moomesa-60D31E.14054824112004@news-east.newsfeeds.com>,
Jeepers <moomesa@INVALIDfnbnet.net> wrote:

> In article <241120041442412259%RhmpL33@nospam.net>,
> Rich Hampel <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote:
>
> > If the fill hose touches the bottom of the barrel that is being
> > filled..... then each system will require the same exact pressure to
> > fill: The pressure required is the weight of the column of water
> > (static head); but, since the hose that goes over the top will partly
> > siphon (the distance from the top of the barrel to the bottomof the
> > barrel) the pressure requirements will be the same. The only
> > difference is that for 'starting' the hose that goes over the top, will
> > require more pressure to lift the water to the top of the bend, but
> > once the water entirely fills the hose and the sipon effect starts,
> > then either system will require the same pressure. whew!
>
> I was clear, no hose over the top. 3 bungs on side of barrel, two at
> top, one at bottom. One top one is vent the other is fill.
>
> Why isn't the additional water in the barrel not included as the static
> head on the lower fill? There is tremendously more volume in the barrel
> at, say half way.

Re: OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
 

"volume" has nothing to do with pressure. 'Only' the 'vertical height'
(static head) is what requires the pressure; or, in another way....
each 2.31 feet (in the vertical direction) of water is equal to 1 psi.
So, if the total height of pumping (includes the height of water in the
barrel) is 23.1 ft. it will take 10 psi to 'push' it that far up

If you slowly submerge a pressure gauge into a large container of
water, the gage will read 1 psi at 2.31 ft. submergence, 5 psi @ 11.6
feet, 100 psi @ 231 ft. ..... and it doesnt matter if the container is
a vertical soda straw or the Atlantic Ocean.
;-)


In article <moomesa-60D31E.14054824112004@news-east.newsfeeds.com>,
Jeepers <moomesa@INVALIDfnbnet.net> wrote:

> In article <241120041442412259%RhmpL33@nospam.net>,
> Rich Hampel <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote:
>
> > If the fill hose touches the bottom of the barrel that is being
> > filled..... then each system will require the same exact pressure to
> > fill: The pressure required is the weight of the column of water
> > (static head); but, since the hose that goes over the top will partly
> > siphon (the distance from the top of the barrel to the bottomof the
> > barrel) the pressure requirements will be the same. The only
> > difference is that for 'starting' the hose that goes over the top, will
> > require more pressure to lift the water to the top of the bend, but
> > once the water entirely fills the hose and the sipon effect starts,
> > then either system will require the same pressure. whew!
>
> I was clear, no hose over the top. 3 bungs on side of barrel, two at
> top, one at bottom. One top one is vent the other is fill.
>
> Why isn't the additional water in the barrel not included as the static
> head on the lower fill? There is tremendously more volume in the barrel
> at, say half way.

Re: OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
 

The formula for the amount of pressure coming out of the bottom or top hole
is:

Each foot of height provides about 0.43 PSI (pounds per square inch) of
pressure.

The size or diameter of the tank does not matter. The pressure comes from
the height of the water column. The pressure for any given height difference
(from top tank to bottom tank) would be the same with any size tank. A
million gallon water tank 10 feet off the ground will have the same water
pressure draining as a 10 gallon tank, 10 feet off the ground.

Tom

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:41A4AC45.446CDF06@sympatico.ca...
> LOL!
>
> Water is heavy. How many PSI comes out that bottom hole?
>
> The pump must first overcome this pressure before it can start filling
> the tank. That can easily mean the pump will 'run backward' and fill up
> the truck if the top tank has enough weight in it.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
via Encryption =----

Re: OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
 

The formula for the amount of pressure coming out of the bottom or top hole
is:

Each foot of height provides about 0.43 PSI (pounds per square inch) of
pressure.

The size or diameter of the tank does not matter. The pressure comes from
the height of the water column. The pressure for any given height difference
(from top tank to bottom tank) would be the same with any size tank. A
million gallon water tank 10 feet off the ground will have the same water
pressure draining as a 10 gallon tank, 10 feet off the ground.

Tom

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:41A4AC45.446CDF06@sympatico.ca...
> LOL!
>
> Water is heavy. How many PSI comes out that bottom hole?
>
> The pump must first overcome this pressure before it can start filling
> the tank. That can easily mean the pump will 'run backward' and fill up
> the truck if the top tank has enough weight in it.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
via Encryption =----

Re: OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
 

The formula for the amount of pressure coming out of the bottom or top hole
is:

Each foot of height provides about 0.43 PSI (pounds per square inch) of
pressure.

The size or diameter of the tank does not matter. The pressure comes from
the height of the water column. The pressure for any given height difference
(from top tank to bottom tank) would be the same with any size tank. A
million gallon water tank 10 feet off the ground will have the same water
pressure draining as a 10 gallon tank, 10 feet off the ground.

Tom

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:41A4AC45.446CDF06@sympatico.ca...
> LOL!
>
> Water is heavy. How many PSI comes out that bottom hole?
>
> The pump must first overcome this pressure before it can start filling
> the tank. That can easily mean the pump will 'run backward' and fill up
> the truck if the top tank has enough weight in it.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
via Encryption =----

Re: OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
 

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:21:07 -0500, "mabar"
<mabar@NoooSpamgrbonline.com> wrote:

>The formula for the amount of pressure coming out of the bottom or top hole
>is:
>
>Each foot of height provides about 0.43 PSI (pounds per square inch) of
>pressure.
>
>The size or diameter of the tank does not matter. The pressure comes from
>the height of the water column. The pressure for any given height difference
>(from top tank to bottom tank) would be the same with any size tank. A
>million gallon water tank 10 feet off the ground will have the same water
>pressure draining as a 10 gallon tank, 10 feet off the ground.
>
If, and only if, the tanks are of the same height. If the million
gallon tank is taller there will be more pressure.
>Tom
>
>"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>news:41A4AC45.446CDF06@sympatico.ca...
>> LOL!
>>
>> Water is heavy. How many PSI comes out that bottom hole?
>>
>> The pump must first overcome this pressure before it can start filling
>> the tank. That can easily mean the pump will 'run backward' and fill up
>> the truck if the top tank has enough weight in it.

>> Mike
>> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>
>via Encryption =----
>