Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
 

Jeepers <moomesa@INVALIDfnbnet.net> wrote in message news:<moomesa-4D3A5C.09163924112004@news-east.newsfeeds.com>...
> In article
> <tN0pd.966346$Gx4.269200@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Lynn Guini" <Lynn@nospan.com> wrote:
>
> > a bit easier to pump to the bottom bung, until the water level in the raised
> > barrel rises. The fact that the hose has less volume of water than the
> > barrel is irrelevant - it is the height you are pumping the water that
> > matters.
> >
> > but pumping to the top bung might prevent a problem if the hose comes loose.
>
> O.K. At this point I admit I'm no doctor of physics. I also have to
> admit it was my idea to install the top fill bung thinking it would be
> easier to fill because I wouldn't be filling against a barrel full of
> water. So I lose the argument. HOWEVER... I also want to leave the hose
> attached to the top fill bung so I don't have to re-attach a water
I pump juice through hozes all day long. Do not forget the diameter
of the hoze - the bigger it is the faster you can pump. Friction in
pipes is a real and very well understood phenomenon. So, if you can
have a bigger hoze going to the top bung then you are better off doing
thing that way.

I strongly advise filling from the top for this reason: If the
discharge is above the water and the pump guits or the hoze pops off
then you only lose one hoze volume of water. If you are filling from
the bottom you risk losing the whole barrel of water. If you make and
break fittings pretty soon they leak. Therefore if you have one line
for discharge that is made up properly and never monkeyed with and you
fill from a hoze going in the top you have Murphy insurance.

Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
 

Jeepers <moomesa@INVALIDfnbnet.net> wrote in message news:<moomesa-4D3A5C.09163924112004@news-east.newsfeeds.com>...
> In article
> <tN0pd.966346$Gx4.269200@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Lynn Guini" <Lynn@nospan.com> wrote:
>
> > a bit easier to pump to the bottom bung, until the water level in the raised
> > barrel rises. The fact that the hose has less volume of water than the
> > barrel is irrelevant - it is the height you are pumping the water that
> > matters.
> >
> > but pumping to the top bung might prevent a problem if the hose comes loose.
>
> O.K. At this point I admit I'm no doctor of physics. I also have to
> admit it was my idea to install the top fill bung thinking it would be
> easier to fill because I wouldn't be filling against a barrel full of
> water. So I lose the argument. HOWEVER... I also want to leave the hose
> attached to the top fill bung so I don't have to re-attach a water
I pump juice through hozes all day long. Do not forget the diameter
of the hoze - the bigger it is the faster you can pump. Friction in
pipes is a real and very well understood phenomenon. So, if you can
have a bigger hoze going to the top bung then you are better off doing
thing that way.

I strongly advise filling from the top for this reason: If the
discharge is above the water and the pump guits or the hoze pops off
then you only lose one hoze volume of water. If you are filling from
the bottom you risk losing the whole barrel of water. If you make and
break fittings pretty soon they leak. Therefore if you have one line
for discharge that is made up properly and never monkeyed with and you
fill from a hoze going in the top you have Murphy insurance.

Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
 

Jeepers <moomesa@INVALIDfnbnet.net> wrote in message news:<moomesa-4D3A5C.09163924112004@news-east.newsfeeds.com>...
> In article
> <tN0pd.966346$Gx4.269200@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Lynn Guini" <Lynn@nospan.com> wrote:
>
> > a bit easier to pump to the bottom bung, until the water level in the raised
> > barrel rises. The fact that the hose has less volume of water than the
> > barrel is irrelevant - it is the height you are pumping the water that
> > matters.
> >
> > but pumping to the top bung might prevent a problem if the hose comes loose.
>
> O.K. At this point I admit I'm no doctor of physics. I also have to
> admit it was my idea to install the top fill bung thinking it would be
> easier to fill because I wouldn't be filling against a barrel full of
> water. So I lose the argument. HOWEVER... I also want to leave the hose
> attached to the top fill bung so I don't have to re-attach a water
I pump juice through hozes all day long. Do not forget the diameter
of the hoze - the bigger it is the faster you can pump. Friction in
pipes is a real and very well understood phenomenon. So, if you can
have a bigger hoze going to the top bung then you are better off doing
thing that way.

I strongly advise filling from the top for this reason: If the
discharge is above the water and the pump guits or the hoze pops off
then you only lose one hoze volume of water. If you are filling from
the bottom you risk losing the whole barrel of water. If you make and
break fittings pretty soon they leak. Therefore if you have one line
for discharge that is made up properly and never monkeyed with and you
fill from a hoze going in the top you have Murphy insurance.

Re: OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
 

Jeepers proclaimed:

> O.k. got an argument to solve.
>
> Have a 55 gal. barrel, on a 8 to 10 foot tall platform (to provide water
> in deer camp).
>
> It has three bungs. One on the bottom side (drain/flow). Two on the top
> side. One for vent, one for fill.

Tighten all bungs. Drop a round or two from a hand loaded big bore
belted magnum thru it. Watch barrel disintegrate.

>
> There is another barrel in the bed of a pickup, full of water. There are
> two pumps, one hand diaphragm type or one typical 12v bilge type. This
> is the source of water to fill the high barrel.

>
> The argument is that the water can be just as easily pumped into the
> barrel through the drain bung, from below, as it could be through the
> top fill bung. There is an assertion that the pressure inside the hose
> is greater in the lower fill hose than in the upper fill hose, due to
> the weight of the water in the barrel as it fills.

>
> Which, if any, fill location would require more or less force to fill
> this barrel: the top hole or the bottom hole?

As you pump water up to the bottom, you'll be pumping water up thru
N feet of gravity. You'll also be pumping it against the extra weight
of water in the barrel, presuming that you left both top holes open so
there is no increase in atmospheric pressure in the barrel.
So the amount of pressure will be the water column of N feet plus the
height of the water in the barrel.

When you pump water in thru the top, you'll be pumping water up thru
"N+B" feet of gravity where "B" will be the extra height needed in
order to run the hose up to the top of the barrel. This will always
be higher than pumping up thru the bottom, so the water column will
weigh more.

Heck make it really tricky and try to suck a column of water up a
height of more than 21 feet at roughly sea level... less in the
mountains.


>

Re: OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
 

Jeepers proclaimed:

> O.k. got an argument to solve.
>
> Have a 55 gal. barrel, on a 8 to 10 foot tall platform (to provide water
> in deer camp).
>
> It has three bungs. One on the bottom side (drain/flow). Two on the top
> side. One for vent, one for fill.

Tighten all bungs. Drop a round or two from a hand loaded big bore
belted magnum thru it. Watch barrel disintegrate.

>
> There is another barrel in the bed of a pickup, full of water. There are
> two pumps, one hand diaphragm type or one typical 12v bilge type. This
> is the source of water to fill the high barrel.

>
> The argument is that the water can be just as easily pumped into the
> barrel through the drain bung, from below, as it could be through the
> top fill bung. There is an assertion that the pressure inside the hose
> is greater in the lower fill hose than in the upper fill hose, due to
> the weight of the water in the barrel as it fills.

>
> Which, if any, fill location would require more or less force to fill
> this barrel: the top hole or the bottom hole?

As you pump water up to the bottom, you'll be pumping water up thru
N feet of gravity. You'll also be pumping it against the extra weight
of water in the barrel, presuming that you left both top holes open so
there is no increase in atmospheric pressure in the barrel.
So the amount of pressure will be the water column of N feet plus the
height of the water in the barrel.

When you pump water in thru the top, you'll be pumping water up thru
"N+B" feet of gravity where "B" will be the extra height needed in
order to run the hose up to the top of the barrel. This will always
be higher than pumping up thru the bottom, so the water column will
weigh more.

Heck make it really tricky and try to suck a column of water up a
height of more than 21 feet at roughly sea level... less in the
mountains.


>

Re: OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
 

Jeepers proclaimed:

> O.k. got an argument to solve.
>
> Have a 55 gal. barrel, on a 8 to 10 foot tall platform (to provide water
> in deer camp).
>
> It has three bungs. One on the bottom side (drain/flow). Two on the top
> side. One for vent, one for fill.

Tighten all bungs. Drop a round or two from a hand loaded big bore
belted magnum thru it. Watch barrel disintegrate.

>
> There is another barrel in the bed of a pickup, full of water. There are
> two pumps, one hand diaphragm type or one typical 12v bilge type. This
> is the source of water to fill the high barrel.

>
> The argument is that the water can be just as easily pumped into the
> barrel through the drain bung, from below, as it could be through the
> top fill bung. There is an assertion that the pressure inside the hose
> is greater in the lower fill hose than in the upper fill hose, due to
> the weight of the water in the barrel as it fills.

>
> Which, if any, fill location would require more or less force to fill
> this barrel: the top hole or the bottom hole?

As you pump water up to the bottom, you'll be pumping water up thru
N feet of gravity. You'll also be pumping it against the extra weight
of water in the barrel, presuming that you left both top holes open so
there is no increase in atmospheric pressure in the barrel.
So the amount of pressure will be the water column of N feet plus the
height of the water in the barrel.

When you pump water in thru the top, you'll be pumping water up thru
"N+B" feet of gravity where "B" will be the extra height needed in
order to run the hose up to the top of the barrel. This will always
be higher than pumping up thru the bottom, so the water column will
weigh more.

Heck make it really tricky and try to suck a column of water up a
height of more than 21 feet at roughly sea level... less in the
mountains.


>

Re: OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
 

Mike Romain proclaimed:

> LOL!
>
> Water is heavy. How many PSI comes out that bottom hole?

Exactly the same as if the hose were exactly the height of the
water inside of the barrel longer. And always less than the height
to the top of the barrel, which will always have a longer water
column to pump water against.
>
> The pump must first overcome this pressure before it can start filling
> the tank. That can easily mean the pump will 'run backward' and fill up
> the truck if the top tank has enough weight in it.

Less likely to do so than if attempting to pump the water up to a
height high enough to clear the top of the barrel.

All that matters is the pure height of the water column as can easily
be measured or demonstrated by the artesian effect.

>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> Jeepers wrote:
>
>>O.k. got an argument to solve.
>>
>>Have a 55 gal. barrel, on a 8 to 10 foot tall platform (to provide water
>>in deer camp).
>>
>>It has three bungs. One on the bottom side (drain/flow). Two on the top
>>side. One for vent, one for fill.
>>
>>There is another barrel in the bed of a pickup, full of water. There are
>>two pumps, one hand diaphragm type or one typical 12v bilge type. This
>>is the source of water to fill the high barrel.
>>
>>The argument is that the water can be just as easily pumped into the
>>barrel through the drain bung, from below, as it could be through the
>>top fill bung. There is an assertion that the pressure inside the hose
>>is greater in the lower fill hose than in the upper fill hose, due to
>>the weight of the water in the barrel as it fills.
>>
>>Which, if any, fill location would require more or less force to fill
>>this barrel: the top hole or the bottom hole?
>>
>>--
>>Member AAAAAAAA
>>American Association Against Acronym Abuse And Also Ambiguity.
>>
>>----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
>>http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
>>----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Re: OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
 

Mike Romain proclaimed:

> LOL!
>
> Water is heavy. How many PSI comes out that bottom hole?

Exactly the same as if the hose were exactly the height of the
water inside of the barrel longer. And always less than the height
to the top of the barrel, which will always have a longer water
column to pump water against.
>
> The pump must first overcome this pressure before it can start filling
> the tank. That can easily mean the pump will 'run backward' and fill up
> the truck if the top tank has enough weight in it.

Less likely to do so than if attempting to pump the water up to a
height high enough to clear the top of the barrel.

All that matters is the pure height of the water column as can easily
be measured or demonstrated by the artesian effect.

>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> Jeepers wrote:
>
>>O.k. got an argument to solve.
>>
>>Have a 55 gal. barrel, on a 8 to 10 foot tall platform (to provide water
>>in deer camp).
>>
>>It has three bungs. One on the bottom side (drain/flow). Two on the top
>>side. One for vent, one for fill.
>>
>>There is another barrel in the bed of a pickup, full of water. There are
>>two pumps, one hand diaphragm type or one typical 12v bilge type. This
>>is the source of water to fill the high barrel.
>>
>>The argument is that the water can be just as easily pumped into the
>>barrel through the drain bung, from below, as it could be through the
>>top fill bung. There is an assertion that the pressure inside the hose
>>is greater in the lower fill hose than in the upper fill hose, due to
>>the weight of the water in the barrel as it fills.
>>
>>Which, if any, fill location would require more or less force to fill
>>this barrel: the top hole or the bottom hole?
>>
>>--
>>Member AAAAAAAA
>>American Association Against Acronym Abuse And Also Ambiguity.
>>
>>----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
>>http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
>>----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Re: OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
 

Mike Romain proclaimed:

> LOL!
>
> Water is heavy. How many PSI comes out that bottom hole?

Exactly the same as if the hose were exactly the height of the
water inside of the barrel longer. And always less than the height
to the top of the barrel, which will always have a longer water
column to pump water against.
>
> The pump must first overcome this pressure before it can start filling
> the tank. That can easily mean the pump will 'run backward' and fill up
> the truck if the top tank has enough weight in it.

Less likely to do so than if attempting to pump the water up to a
height high enough to clear the top of the barrel.

All that matters is the pure height of the water column as can easily
be measured or demonstrated by the artesian effect.

>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> Jeepers wrote:
>
>>O.k. got an argument to solve.
>>
>>Have a 55 gal. barrel, on a 8 to 10 foot tall platform (to provide water
>>in deer camp).
>>
>>It has three bungs. One on the bottom side (drain/flow). Two on the top
>>side. One for vent, one for fill.
>>
>>There is another barrel in the bed of a pickup, full of water. There are
>>two pumps, one hand diaphragm type or one typical 12v bilge type. This
>>is the source of water to fill the high barrel.
>>
>>The argument is that the water can be just as easily pumped into the
>>barrel through the drain bung, from below, as it could be through the
>>top fill bung. There is an assertion that the pressure inside the hose
>>is greater in the lower fill hose than in the upper fill hose, due to
>>the weight of the water in the barrel as it fills.
>>
>>Which, if any, fill location would require more or less force to fill
>>this barrel: the top hole or the bottom hole?
>>
>>--
>>Member AAAAAAAA
>>American Association Against Acronym Abuse And Also Ambiguity.
>>
>>----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
>>http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
>>----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
 

Jeepers proclaimed:

> In article <hJ4pd.91466$T02.37417@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>,
> "c" <c@me.org> wrote:
>
>
>>My physics is a bit rusty here, but IIRC, the pressure created at the bottom
>>opening will be equal to the weight of a water column (which is the area of
>>the opening x the height of the water column). This applies whether the
>>bottom opening is at the side or on the bottom. A fluid exerts equal
>>pressure against all sides of its container that it is in contact with. What
>>this means in essence is that it would take slightly less energy to bottom
>>fill. Any fluid in a container has some amount of stored energy, The wider
>>and shorter the container is, the less energy it will take to fill it.
>>
>>Also, like the others said, the energy required to top fill will remain
>>constant as the barrel fills. For bottom filling, the energy will start out
>>slightly less, and end up the same as the barrel reaches full.
>>
>>Chris
>
>
> O.K. my lame-ass attempt at physics argument:
>
> Isn't part of the column the barrel? The barrel has a bigger column in
> it's part, than the hose. So the weight of the water column is GREATLY
> larger than the one in the hose going to the top. Less water - less
> weight, right?
>
Nope. Height matters, width doesn't. Presuming the top has been
vented to the atmosphere.