OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
#201
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
"Jerry Erickson" <jerroldoerickson@msn.com> wrote in message news:<41a5ffce$1_1@127.0.0.1>...
> Key words here are "head pressure"---there would be no difference in the
> force required to fill the upper barrel from any of the three bungs other
> than "line"loss (if you shortened the hose to fill from the lower bung you
> would have less line loss and therefore require less force to fill the drum,
> but the difference wouldn't be measureable without NASA scientists and
> equipment).
>
> Jerry
> "Jeepers" <moomesa@INVALIDfnbnet.net> wrote in message
> news:moomesa-F31228.08110724112004@news-east.newsfeeds.com...
> > O.k. got an argument to solve.
> >
> > Have a 55 gal. barrel, on a 8 to 10 foot tall platform (to provide water
> > in deer camp).
> >
> > It has three bungs. One on the bottom side (drain/flow). Two on the top
> > side. One for vent, one for fill.
> >
> > There is another barrel in the bed of a pickup, full of water. There are
> > two pumps, one hand diaphragm type or one typical 12v bilge type. This
> > is the source of water to fill the high barrel.
> >
> > The argument is that the water can be just as easily pumped into the
> > barrel through the drain bung, from below, as it could be through the
> > top fill bung. There is an assertion that the pressure inside the hose
> > is greater in the lower fill hose than in the upper fill hose, due to
> > the weight of the water in the barrel as it fills.
> >
> > Which, if any, fill location would require more or less force to fill
> > this barrel: the top hole or the bottom hole?
> >
> > --
> > Member AAAAAAAA
> > American Association Against Acronym Abuse And Also Ambiguity.
> >
> > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
> > News==----
> > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
> > Newsgroups
> > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
> > =----
> >
Well to be pedantic (this has been mentioned several times up thread)
the effort to fill will be somewhat less filling through the bottom as
you start with a partly or completely empty barrel. Assuming an empty
barrel about 3' high, the effort at beginning will be about 1.2 or 1.3
psi less than when full.
Harry K
> Key words here are "head pressure"---there would be no difference in the
> force required to fill the upper barrel from any of the three bungs other
> than "line"loss (if you shortened the hose to fill from the lower bung you
> would have less line loss and therefore require less force to fill the drum,
> but the difference wouldn't be measureable without NASA scientists and
> equipment).
>
> Jerry
> "Jeepers" <moomesa@INVALIDfnbnet.net> wrote in message
> news:moomesa-F31228.08110724112004@news-east.newsfeeds.com...
> > O.k. got an argument to solve.
> >
> > Have a 55 gal. barrel, on a 8 to 10 foot tall platform (to provide water
> > in deer camp).
> >
> > It has three bungs. One on the bottom side (drain/flow). Two on the top
> > side. One for vent, one for fill.
> >
> > There is another barrel in the bed of a pickup, full of water. There are
> > two pumps, one hand diaphragm type or one typical 12v bilge type. This
> > is the source of water to fill the high barrel.
> >
> > The argument is that the water can be just as easily pumped into the
> > barrel through the drain bung, from below, as it could be through the
> > top fill bung. There is an assertion that the pressure inside the hose
> > is greater in the lower fill hose than in the upper fill hose, due to
> > the weight of the water in the barrel as it fills.
> >
> > Which, if any, fill location would require more or less force to fill
> > this barrel: the top hole or the bottom hole?
> >
> > --
> > Member AAAAAAAA
> > American Association Against Acronym Abuse And Also Ambiguity.
> >
> > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
> > News==----
> > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
> > Newsgroups
> > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
> > =----
> >
Well to be pedantic (this has been mentioned several times up thread)
the effort to fill will be somewhat less filling through the bottom as
you start with a partly or completely empty barrel. Assuming an empty
barrel about 3' high, the effort at beginning will be about 1.2 or 1.3
psi less than when full.
Harry K
#202
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
"Jerry Erickson" <jerroldoerickson@msn.com> wrote in message news:<41a5ffce$1_1@127.0.0.1>...
> Key words here are "head pressure"---there would be no difference in the
> force required to fill the upper barrel from any of the three bungs other
> than "line"loss (if you shortened the hose to fill from the lower bung you
> would have less line loss and therefore require less force to fill the drum,
> but the difference wouldn't be measureable without NASA scientists and
> equipment).
>
> Jerry
> "Jeepers" <moomesa@INVALIDfnbnet.net> wrote in message
> news:moomesa-F31228.08110724112004@news-east.newsfeeds.com...
> > O.k. got an argument to solve.
> >
> > Have a 55 gal. barrel, on a 8 to 10 foot tall platform (to provide water
> > in deer camp).
> >
> > It has three bungs. One on the bottom side (drain/flow). Two on the top
> > side. One for vent, one for fill.
> >
> > There is another barrel in the bed of a pickup, full of water. There are
> > two pumps, one hand diaphragm type or one typical 12v bilge type. This
> > is the source of water to fill the high barrel.
> >
> > The argument is that the water can be just as easily pumped into the
> > barrel through the drain bung, from below, as it could be through the
> > top fill bung. There is an assertion that the pressure inside the hose
> > is greater in the lower fill hose than in the upper fill hose, due to
> > the weight of the water in the barrel as it fills.
> >
> > Which, if any, fill location would require more or less force to fill
> > this barrel: the top hole or the bottom hole?
> >
> > --
> > Member AAAAAAAA
> > American Association Against Acronym Abuse And Also Ambiguity.
> >
> > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
> > News==----
> > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
> > Newsgroups
> > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
> > =----
> >
Well to be pedantic (this has been mentioned several times up thread)
the effort to fill will be somewhat less filling through the bottom as
you start with a partly or completely empty barrel. Assuming an empty
barrel about 3' high, the effort at beginning will be about 1.2 or 1.3
psi less than when full.
Harry K
> Key words here are "head pressure"---there would be no difference in the
> force required to fill the upper barrel from any of the three bungs other
> than "line"loss (if you shortened the hose to fill from the lower bung you
> would have less line loss and therefore require less force to fill the drum,
> but the difference wouldn't be measureable without NASA scientists and
> equipment).
>
> Jerry
> "Jeepers" <moomesa@INVALIDfnbnet.net> wrote in message
> news:moomesa-F31228.08110724112004@news-east.newsfeeds.com...
> > O.k. got an argument to solve.
> >
> > Have a 55 gal. barrel, on a 8 to 10 foot tall platform (to provide water
> > in deer camp).
> >
> > It has three bungs. One on the bottom side (drain/flow). Two on the top
> > side. One for vent, one for fill.
> >
> > There is another barrel in the bed of a pickup, full of water. There are
> > two pumps, one hand diaphragm type or one typical 12v bilge type. This
> > is the source of water to fill the high barrel.
> >
> > The argument is that the water can be just as easily pumped into the
> > barrel through the drain bung, from below, as it could be through the
> > top fill bung. There is an assertion that the pressure inside the hose
> > is greater in the lower fill hose than in the upper fill hose, due to
> > the weight of the water in the barrel as it fills.
> >
> > Which, if any, fill location would require more or less force to fill
> > this barrel: the top hole or the bottom hole?
> >
> > --
> > Member AAAAAAAA
> > American Association Against Acronym Abuse And Also Ambiguity.
> >
> > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
> > News==----
> > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
> > Newsgroups
> > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
> > =----
> >
Well to be pedantic (this has been mentioned several times up thread)
the effort to fill will be somewhat less filling through the bottom as
you start with a partly or completely empty barrel. Assuming an empty
barrel about 3' high, the effort at beginning will be about 1.2 or 1.3
psi less than when full.
Harry K
#203
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
> > >
> > > finally? He had a correct answer within ten minutes. Why this thread
> has
> > > grown (or should I say GROAN?) so long is a mystery to me!
> >
> > I was referring to the number of posts before it was pointed out.
> >
> so was I. The second response so stated.
>
>
#204
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
> > >
> > > finally? He had a correct answer within ten minutes. Why this thread
> has
> > > grown (or should I say GROAN?) so long is a mystery to me!
> >
> > I was referring to the number of posts before it was pointed out.
> >
> so was I. The second response so stated.
>
>
#205
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
> > >
> > > finally? He had a correct answer within ten minutes. Why this thread
> has
> > > grown (or should I say GROAN?) so long is a mystery to me!
> >
> > I was referring to the number of posts before it was pointed out.
> >
> so was I. The second response so stated.
>
>
#206
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
Three reasons for the bottom fill on towers (having spent more white
knuckle time on those blatant lightning rods than I like to remember).
First, those fill pipes are gated to perform in both directions from
valves positoned on the ground (they also have flow restrictors for
reverse flow). Second, the flow rates, especially during fill cycles,
is high enough that wall friction is a significant factor so they keep
them short and straight. Third, top fill in those big tanks causes
some real nasty turbulence and wave problems where bottom fill is much
more benign and predictable. I've also been told that running the
pipe outside and up causes some appreciable balance and weight shift,
but I'm skeptical of that one myself.
By the time this thread is done, it's gonna be to damned cold for the
OP to want a shower, anyway.
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 02:57:32 UTC "mabar" <mabar@NoooSpamgrbonline.com>
wrote:
> I'm pretty sure that town water towers ARE filled from the bottom.
>
> As explained in a number of the previous posts in this thread, it takes less
> overall energy to fill a barrel (or water tower) from the bottom than from
> the top.
>
> http://people.howstuffworks.com/water1.htm
>
> Tom
>
> "Tom Greening" <tgreen@yohmama.com> wrote in message
> news:u1vpd.38278$sk2.14588@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> > For sake of argument, a half full drum of water will exert a fair amount
> of
> > pressure coming out of the bottom bung. Much more than the extra weight
> of
> > the additional water column if filling thru the top or near top side bung.
> > Going in thru the bottom requires you to overcome the pressure of the
> water
> > trying to exit. Imagine trying to fill a town water tower from the
> bottom
> > as opposed to filling it from the top.
> >
>
>
--
Will Honea
knuckle time on those blatant lightning rods than I like to remember).
First, those fill pipes are gated to perform in both directions from
valves positoned on the ground (they also have flow restrictors for
reverse flow). Second, the flow rates, especially during fill cycles,
is high enough that wall friction is a significant factor so they keep
them short and straight. Third, top fill in those big tanks causes
some real nasty turbulence and wave problems where bottom fill is much
more benign and predictable. I've also been told that running the
pipe outside and up causes some appreciable balance and weight shift,
but I'm skeptical of that one myself.
By the time this thread is done, it's gonna be to damned cold for the
OP to want a shower, anyway.
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 02:57:32 UTC "mabar" <mabar@NoooSpamgrbonline.com>
wrote:
> I'm pretty sure that town water towers ARE filled from the bottom.
>
> As explained in a number of the previous posts in this thread, it takes less
> overall energy to fill a barrel (or water tower) from the bottom than from
> the top.
>
> http://people.howstuffworks.com/water1.htm
>
> Tom
>
> "Tom Greening" <tgreen@yohmama.com> wrote in message
> news:u1vpd.38278$sk2.14588@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> > For sake of argument, a half full drum of water will exert a fair amount
> of
> > pressure coming out of the bottom bung. Much more than the extra weight
> of
> > the additional water column if filling thru the top or near top side bung.
> > Going in thru the bottom requires you to overcome the pressure of the
> water
> > trying to exit. Imagine trying to fill a town water tower from the
> bottom
> > as opposed to filling it from the top.
> >
>
>
--
Will Honea
#207
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
Three reasons for the bottom fill on towers (having spent more white
knuckle time on those blatant lightning rods than I like to remember).
First, those fill pipes are gated to perform in both directions from
valves positoned on the ground (they also have flow restrictors for
reverse flow). Second, the flow rates, especially during fill cycles,
is high enough that wall friction is a significant factor so they keep
them short and straight. Third, top fill in those big tanks causes
some real nasty turbulence and wave problems where bottom fill is much
more benign and predictable. I've also been told that running the
pipe outside and up causes some appreciable balance and weight shift,
but I'm skeptical of that one myself.
By the time this thread is done, it's gonna be to damned cold for the
OP to want a shower, anyway.
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 02:57:32 UTC "mabar" <mabar@NoooSpamgrbonline.com>
wrote:
> I'm pretty sure that town water towers ARE filled from the bottom.
>
> As explained in a number of the previous posts in this thread, it takes less
> overall energy to fill a barrel (or water tower) from the bottom than from
> the top.
>
> http://people.howstuffworks.com/water1.htm
>
> Tom
>
> "Tom Greening" <tgreen@yohmama.com> wrote in message
> news:u1vpd.38278$sk2.14588@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> > For sake of argument, a half full drum of water will exert a fair amount
> of
> > pressure coming out of the bottom bung. Much more than the extra weight
> of
> > the additional water column if filling thru the top or near top side bung.
> > Going in thru the bottom requires you to overcome the pressure of the
> water
> > trying to exit. Imagine trying to fill a town water tower from the
> bottom
> > as opposed to filling it from the top.
> >
>
>
--
Will Honea
knuckle time on those blatant lightning rods than I like to remember).
First, those fill pipes are gated to perform in both directions from
valves positoned on the ground (they also have flow restrictors for
reverse flow). Second, the flow rates, especially during fill cycles,
is high enough that wall friction is a significant factor so they keep
them short and straight. Third, top fill in those big tanks causes
some real nasty turbulence and wave problems where bottom fill is much
more benign and predictable. I've also been told that running the
pipe outside and up causes some appreciable balance and weight shift,
but I'm skeptical of that one myself.
By the time this thread is done, it's gonna be to damned cold for the
OP to want a shower, anyway.
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 02:57:32 UTC "mabar" <mabar@NoooSpamgrbonline.com>
wrote:
> I'm pretty sure that town water towers ARE filled from the bottom.
>
> As explained in a number of the previous posts in this thread, it takes less
> overall energy to fill a barrel (or water tower) from the bottom than from
> the top.
>
> http://people.howstuffworks.com/water1.htm
>
> Tom
>
> "Tom Greening" <tgreen@yohmama.com> wrote in message
> news:u1vpd.38278$sk2.14588@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> > For sake of argument, a half full drum of water will exert a fair amount
> of
> > pressure coming out of the bottom bung. Much more than the extra weight
> of
> > the additional water column if filling thru the top or near top side bung.
> > Going in thru the bottom requires you to overcome the pressure of the
> water
> > trying to exit. Imagine trying to fill a town water tower from the
> bottom
> > as opposed to filling it from the top.
> >
>
>
--
Will Honea
#208
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
Three reasons for the bottom fill on towers (having spent more white
knuckle time on those blatant lightning rods than I like to remember).
First, those fill pipes are gated to perform in both directions from
valves positoned on the ground (they also have flow restrictors for
reverse flow). Second, the flow rates, especially during fill cycles,
is high enough that wall friction is a significant factor so they keep
them short and straight. Third, top fill in those big tanks causes
some real nasty turbulence and wave problems where bottom fill is much
more benign and predictable. I've also been told that running the
pipe outside and up causes some appreciable balance and weight shift,
but I'm skeptical of that one myself.
By the time this thread is done, it's gonna be to damned cold for the
OP to want a shower, anyway.
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 02:57:32 UTC "mabar" <mabar@NoooSpamgrbonline.com>
wrote:
> I'm pretty sure that town water towers ARE filled from the bottom.
>
> As explained in a number of the previous posts in this thread, it takes less
> overall energy to fill a barrel (or water tower) from the bottom than from
> the top.
>
> http://people.howstuffworks.com/water1.htm
>
> Tom
>
> "Tom Greening" <tgreen@yohmama.com> wrote in message
> news:u1vpd.38278$sk2.14588@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> > For sake of argument, a half full drum of water will exert a fair amount
> of
> > pressure coming out of the bottom bung. Much more than the extra weight
> of
> > the additional water column if filling thru the top or near top side bung.
> > Going in thru the bottom requires you to overcome the pressure of the
> water
> > trying to exit. Imagine trying to fill a town water tower from the
> bottom
> > as opposed to filling it from the top.
> >
>
>
--
Will Honea
knuckle time on those blatant lightning rods than I like to remember).
First, those fill pipes are gated to perform in both directions from
valves positoned on the ground (they also have flow restrictors for
reverse flow). Second, the flow rates, especially during fill cycles,
is high enough that wall friction is a significant factor so they keep
them short and straight. Third, top fill in those big tanks causes
some real nasty turbulence and wave problems where bottom fill is much
more benign and predictable. I've also been told that running the
pipe outside and up causes some appreciable balance and weight shift,
but I'm skeptical of that one myself.
By the time this thread is done, it's gonna be to damned cold for the
OP to want a shower, anyway.
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 02:57:32 UTC "mabar" <mabar@NoooSpamgrbonline.com>
wrote:
> I'm pretty sure that town water towers ARE filled from the bottom.
>
> As explained in a number of the previous posts in this thread, it takes less
> overall energy to fill a barrel (or water tower) from the bottom than from
> the top.
>
> http://people.howstuffworks.com/water1.htm
>
> Tom
>
> "Tom Greening" <tgreen@yohmama.com> wrote in message
> news:u1vpd.38278$sk2.14588@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> > For sake of argument, a half full drum of water will exert a fair amount
> of
> > pressure coming out of the bottom bung. Much more than the extra weight
> of
> > the additional water column if filling thru the top or near top side bung.
> > Going in thru the bottom requires you to overcome the pressure of the
> water
> > trying to exit. Imagine trying to fill a town water tower from the
> bottom
> > as opposed to filling it from the top.
> >
>
>
--
Will Honea
#209
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
In article <JxX2tWiP5BNp-pn2-Fqg1ddgfMrtd@anon.none.net>,
"Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote:
> By the time this thread is done, it's gonna be to damned cold for the
> OP to want a shower, anyway.
LOL!
In that case we boil a couple gallons of water and add a bucket to the
shower stall to sit on and sponge away!
Thanks All Who Participated. I understand now. I am going to use
engineering instead of physics to solve this. I'll use the top hole in
order not to have to risk losing the whole thing to gravity in a failure
(it's or mine). Apparently the difference between the top and the bottom
are negligable (i know that's not spelled right).
Thanks again.
--
Member AAAAAAAA
American Association Against Acronym Abuse And Also Ambiguity.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
"Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote:
> By the time this thread is done, it's gonna be to damned cold for the
> OP to want a shower, anyway.
LOL!
In that case we boil a couple gallons of water and add a bucket to the
shower stall to sit on and sponge away!
Thanks All Who Participated. I understand now. I am going to use
engineering instead of physics to solve this. I'll use the top hole in
order not to have to risk losing the whole thing to gravity in a failure
(it's or mine). Apparently the difference between the top and the bottom
are negligable (i know that's not spelled right).
Thanks again.
--
Member AAAAAAAA
American Association Against Acronym Abuse And Also Ambiguity.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
#210
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
In article <JxX2tWiP5BNp-pn2-Fqg1ddgfMrtd@anon.none.net>,
"Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote:
> By the time this thread is done, it's gonna be to damned cold for the
> OP to want a shower, anyway.
LOL!
In that case we boil a couple gallons of water and add a bucket to the
shower stall to sit on and sponge away!
Thanks All Who Participated. I understand now. I am going to use
engineering instead of physics to solve this. I'll use the top hole in
order not to have to risk losing the whole thing to gravity in a failure
(it's or mine). Apparently the difference between the top and the bottom
are negligable (i know that's not spelled right).
Thanks again.
--
Member AAAAAAAA
American Association Against Acronym Abuse And Also Ambiguity.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
"Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote:
> By the time this thread is done, it's gonna be to damned cold for the
> OP to want a shower, anyway.
LOL!
In that case we boil a couple gallons of water and add a bucket to the
shower stall to sit on and sponge away!
Thanks All Who Participated. I understand now. I am going to use
engineering instead of physics to solve this. I'll use the top hole in
order not to have to risk losing the whole thing to gravity in a failure
(it's or mine). Apparently the difference between the top and the bottom
are negligable (i know that's not spelled right).
Thanks again.
--
Member AAAAAAAA
American Association Against Acronym Abuse And Also Ambiguity.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----