OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
11-25-2004, 07:46 PM
#191
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
Maybe I'm completely missing something but it seems to me that going in thru
the top will require less effort. Going in thru the bottom would only
require less effort until the weight of the water pumped in exceeds the
weight of the extra water columm if you go in thru the top.
For sake of argument, a half full drum of water will exert a fair amount of
pressure coming out of the bottom bung. Much more than the extra weight of
the additional water column if filling thru the top or near top side bung.
Going in thru the bottom requires you to overcome the pressure of the water
trying to exit. Imagine trying to fill a town water tower from the bottom
as opposed to filling it from the top.
"Offbreed" <Offbreed_106@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cMGdnasPi7lG1DvcRVn-pQ@scnresearch.com...
> default@uri.edu wrote:
>
> > Well, not quite. Moving the LAST slug of water requires the same
amount
> > of energy, but until the barrel is full, the water-column to the top
bung
> > is higher than the water colum to the botom bung and up the inside of
the
> > barrel. so the total energy used is LOWER if you pump through the botom
> > hole.
>
> DUH! (slaps head)
>
> You're right.
the top will require less effort. Going in thru the bottom would only
require less effort until the weight of the water pumped in exceeds the
weight of the extra water columm if you go in thru the top.
For sake of argument, a half full drum of water will exert a fair amount of
pressure coming out of the bottom bung. Much more than the extra weight of
the additional water column if filling thru the top or near top side bung.
Going in thru the bottom requires you to overcome the pressure of the water
trying to exit. Imagine trying to fill a town water tower from the bottom
as opposed to filling it from the top.
"Offbreed" <Offbreed_106@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cMGdnasPi7lG1DvcRVn-pQ@scnresearch.com...
> default@uri.edu wrote:
>
> > Well, not quite. Moving the LAST slug of water requires the same
amount
> > of energy, but until the barrel is full, the water-column to the top
bung
> > is higher than the water colum to the botom bung and up the inside of
the
> > barrel. so the total energy used is LOWER if you pump through the botom
> > hole.
>
> DUH! (slaps head)
>
> You're right.
11-25-2004, 07:46 PM
#192
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
Maybe I'm completely missing something but it seems to me that going in thru
the top will require less effort. Going in thru the bottom would only
require less effort until the weight of the water pumped in exceeds the
weight of the extra water columm if you go in thru the top.
For sake of argument, a half full drum of water will exert a fair amount of
pressure coming out of the bottom bung. Much more than the extra weight of
the additional water column if filling thru the top or near top side bung.
Going in thru the bottom requires you to overcome the pressure of the water
trying to exit. Imagine trying to fill a town water tower from the bottom
as opposed to filling it from the top.
"Offbreed" <Offbreed_106@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cMGdnasPi7lG1DvcRVn-pQ@scnresearch.com...
> default@uri.edu wrote:
>
> > Well, not quite. Moving the LAST slug of water requires the same
amount
> > of energy, but until the barrel is full, the water-column to the top
bung
> > is higher than the water colum to the botom bung and up the inside of
the
> > barrel. so the total energy used is LOWER if you pump through the botom
> > hole.
>
> DUH! (slaps head)
>
> You're right.
the top will require less effort. Going in thru the bottom would only
require less effort until the weight of the water pumped in exceeds the
weight of the extra water columm if you go in thru the top.
For sake of argument, a half full drum of water will exert a fair amount of
pressure coming out of the bottom bung. Much more than the extra weight of
the additional water column if filling thru the top or near top side bung.
Going in thru the bottom requires you to overcome the pressure of the water
trying to exit. Imagine trying to fill a town water tower from the bottom
as opposed to filling it from the top.
"Offbreed" <Offbreed_106@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cMGdnasPi7lG1DvcRVn-pQ@scnresearch.com...
> default@uri.edu wrote:
>
> > Well, not quite. Moving the LAST slug of water requires the same
amount
> > of energy, but until the barrel is full, the water-column to the top
bung
> > is higher than the water colum to the botom bung and up the inside of
the
> > barrel. so the total energy used is LOWER if you pump through the botom
> > hole.
>
> DUH! (slaps head)
>
> You're right.
11-25-2004, 07:46 PM
#193
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
Maybe I'm completely missing something but it seems to me that going in thru
the top will require less effort. Going in thru the bottom would only
require less effort until the weight of the water pumped in exceeds the
weight of the extra water columm if you go in thru the top.
For sake of argument, a half full drum of water will exert a fair amount of
pressure coming out of the bottom bung. Much more than the extra weight of
the additional water column if filling thru the top or near top side bung.
Going in thru the bottom requires you to overcome the pressure of the water
trying to exit. Imagine trying to fill a town water tower from the bottom
as opposed to filling it from the top.
"Offbreed" <Offbreed_106@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cMGdnasPi7lG1DvcRVn-pQ@scnresearch.com...
> default@uri.edu wrote:
>
> > Well, not quite. Moving the LAST slug of water requires the same
amount
> > of energy, but until the barrel is full, the water-column to the top
bung
> > is higher than the water colum to the botom bung and up the inside of
the
> > barrel. so the total energy used is LOWER if you pump through the botom
> > hole.
>
> DUH! (slaps head)
>
> You're right.
the top will require less effort. Going in thru the bottom would only
require less effort until the weight of the water pumped in exceeds the
weight of the extra water columm if you go in thru the top.
For sake of argument, a half full drum of water will exert a fair amount of
pressure coming out of the bottom bung. Much more than the extra weight of
the additional water column if filling thru the top or near top side bung.
Going in thru the bottom requires you to overcome the pressure of the water
trying to exit. Imagine trying to fill a town water tower from the bottom
as opposed to filling it from the top.
"Offbreed" <Offbreed_106@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cMGdnasPi7lG1DvcRVn-pQ@scnresearch.com...
> default@uri.edu wrote:
>
> > Well, not quite. Moving the LAST slug of water requires the same
amount
> > of energy, but until the barrel is full, the water-column to the top
bung
> > is higher than the water colum to the botom bung and up the inside of
the
> > barrel. so the total energy used is LOWER if you pump through the botom
> > hole.
>
> DUH! (slaps head)
>
> You're right.
11-25-2004, 09:57 PM
#194
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
I'm pretty sure that town water towers ARE filled from the bottom.
As explained in a number of the previous posts in this thread, it takes less
overall energy to fill a barrel (or water tower) from the bottom than from
the top.
http://people.howstuffworks.com/water1.htm
Tom
"Tom Greening" <tgreen@yohmama.com> wrote in message
news:u1vpd.38278$sk2.14588@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> For sake of argument, a half full drum of water will exert a fair amount
of
> pressure coming out of the bottom bung. Much more than the extra weight
of
> the additional water column if filling thru the top or near top side bung.
> Going in thru the bottom requires you to overcome the pressure of the
water
> trying to exit. Imagine trying to fill a town water tower from the
bottom
> as opposed to filling it from the top.
>
As explained in a number of the previous posts in this thread, it takes less
overall energy to fill a barrel (or water tower) from the bottom than from
the top.
http://people.howstuffworks.com/water1.htm
Tom
"Tom Greening" <tgreen@yohmama.com> wrote in message
news:u1vpd.38278$sk2.14588@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> For sake of argument, a half full drum of water will exert a fair amount
of
> pressure coming out of the bottom bung. Much more than the extra weight
of
> the additional water column if filling thru the top or near top side bung.
> Going in thru the bottom requires you to overcome the pressure of the
water
> trying to exit. Imagine trying to fill a town water tower from the
bottom
> as opposed to filling it from the top.
>
11-25-2004, 09:57 PM
#195
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
I'm pretty sure that town water towers ARE filled from the bottom.
As explained in a number of the previous posts in this thread, it takes less
overall energy to fill a barrel (or water tower) from the bottom than from
the top.
http://people.howstuffworks.com/water1.htm
Tom
"Tom Greening" <tgreen@yohmama.com> wrote in message
news:u1vpd.38278$sk2.14588@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> For sake of argument, a half full drum of water will exert a fair amount
of
> pressure coming out of the bottom bung. Much more than the extra weight
of
> the additional water column if filling thru the top or near top side bung.
> Going in thru the bottom requires you to overcome the pressure of the
water
> trying to exit. Imagine trying to fill a town water tower from the
bottom
> as opposed to filling it from the top.
>
As explained in a number of the previous posts in this thread, it takes less
overall energy to fill a barrel (or water tower) from the bottom than from
the top.
http://people.howstuffworks.com/water1.htm
Tom
"Tom Greening" <tgreen@yohmama.com> wrote in message
news:u1vpd.38278$sk2.14588@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> For sake of argument, a half full drum of water will exert a fair amount
of
> pressure coming out of the bottom bung. Much more than the extra weight
of
> the additional water column if filling thru the top or near top side bung.
> Going in thru the bottom requires you to overcome the pressure of the
water
> trying to exit. Imagine trying to fill a town water tower from the
bottom
> as opposed to filling it from the top.
>
11-25-2004, 09:57 PM
#196
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
I'm pretty sure that town water towers ARE filled from the bottom.
As explained in a number of the previous posts in this thread, it takes less
overall energy to fill a barrel (or water tower) from the bottom than from
the top.
http://people.howstuffworks.com/water1.htm
Tom
"Tom Greening" <tgreen@yohmama.com> wrote in message
news:u1vpd.38278$sk2.14588@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> For sake of argument, a half full drum of water will exert a fair amount
of
> pressure coming out of the bottom bung. Much more than the extra weight
of
> the additional water column if filling thru the top or near top side bung.
> Going in thru the bottom requires you to overcome the pressure of the
water
> trying to exit. Imagine trying to fill a town water tower from the
bottom
> as opposed to filling it from the top.
>
As explained in a number of the previous posts in this thread, it takes less
overall energy to fill a barrel (or water tower) from the bottom than from
the top.
http://people.howstuffworks.com/water1.htm
Tom
"Tom Greening" <tgreen@yohmama.com> wrote in message
news:u1vpd.38278$sk2.14588@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> For sake of argument, a half full drum of water will exert a fair amount
of
> pressure coming out of the bottom bung. Much more than the extra weight
of
> the additional water column if filling thru the top or near top side bung.
> Going in thru the bottom requires you to overcome the pressure of the
water
> trying to exit. Imagine trying to fill a town water tower from the
bottom
> as opposed to filling it from the top.
>
11-25-2004, 10:02 PM
#197
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
"Lynn Guini" <Lynn@nospan.com> wrote in message news:<jSmpd.58027$7i4.56990@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> "Harry K" <turnkey4099@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:751f8d35.0411241945.1e6aeae2@posting.google.c om...
> > lazolla@hotmail.com (Bartolomeo Cristofori) wrote in message
> news:<93a0508e.0411241244.70fbb744@posting.google. com>...
> > Ah yes, finally the proper answer, i.e, it is slightly less pressure
> > to begin with to fill thru the bottom hole until it is identical when
> > the barrel is full.
>
>
> finally? He had a correct answer within ten minutes. Why this thread has
> grown (or should I say GROAN?) so long is a mystery to me!
I was referring to the number of posts before it was pointed out.
Harry K
> "Harry K" <turnkey4099@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:751f8d35.0411241945.1e6aeae2@posting.google.c om...
> > lazolla@hotmail.com (Bartolomeo Cristofori) wrote in message
> news:<93a0508e.0411241244.70fbb744@posting.google. com>...
> > Ah yes, finally the proper answer, i.e, it is slightly less pressure
> > to begin with to fill thru the bottom hole until it is identical when
> > the barrel is full.
>
>
> finally? He had a correct answer within ten minutes. Why this thread has
> grown (or should I say GROAN?) so long is a mystery to me!
I was referring to the number of posts before it was pointed out.
Harry K
11-25-2004, 10:02 PM
#198
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
"Lynn Guini" <Lynn@nospan.com> wrote in message news:<jSmpd.58027$7i4.56990@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> "Harry K" <turnkey4099@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:751f8d35.0411241945.1e6aeae2@posting.google.c om...
> > lazolla@hotmail.com (Bartolomeo Cristofori) wrote in message
> news:<93a0508e.0411241244.70fbb744@posting.google. com>...
> > Ah yes, finally the proper answer, i.e, it is slightly less pressure
> > to begin with to fill thru the bottom hole until it is identical when
> > the barrel is full.
>
>
> finally? He had a correct answer within ten minutes. Why this thread has
> grown (or should I say GROAN?) so long is a mystery to me!
I was referring to the number of posts before it was pointed out.
Harry K
> "Harry K" <turnkey4099@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:751f8d35.0411241945.1e6aeae2@posting.google.c om...
> > lazolla@hotmail.com (Bartolomeo Cristofori) wrote in message
> news:<93a0508e.0411241244.70fbb744@posting.google. com>...
> > Ah yes, finally the proper answer, i.e, it is slightly less pressure
> > to begin with to fill thru the bottom hole until it is identical when
> > the barrel is full.
>
>
> finally? He had a correct answer within ten minutes. Why this thread has
> grown (or should I say GROAN?) so long is a mystery to me!
I was referring to the number of posts before it was pointed out.
Harry K
11-25-2004, 10:02 PM
#199
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: OT: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
"Lynn Guini" <Lynn@nospan.com> wrote in message news:<jSmpd.58027$7i4.56990@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> "Harry K" <turnkey4099@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:751f8d35.0411241945.1e6aeae2@posting.google.c om...
> > lazolla@hotmail.com (Bartolomeo Cristofori) wrote in message
> news:<93a0508e.0411241244.70fbb744@posting.google. com>...
> > Ah yes, finally the proper answer, i.e, it is slightly less pressure
> > to begin with to fill thru the bottom hole until it is identical when
> > the barrel is full.
>
>
> finally? He had a correct answer within ten minutes. Why this thread has
> grown (or should I say GROAN?) so long is a mystery to me!
I was referring to the number of posts before it was pointed out.
Harry K
> "Harry K" <turnkey4099@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:751f8d35.0411241945.1e6aeae2@posting.google.c om...
> > lazolla@hotmail.com (Bartolomeo Cristofori) wrote in message
> news:<93a0508e.0411241244.70fbb744@posting.google. com>...
> > Ah yes, finally the proper answer, i.e, it is slightly less pressure
> > to begin with to fill thru the bottom hole until it is identical when
> > the barrel is full.
>
>
> finally? He had a correct answer within ten minutes. Why this thread has
> grown (or should I say GROAN?) so long is a mystery to me!
I was referring to the number of posts before it was pointed out.
Harry K
11-25-2004, 10:07 PM
#200
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Physics/hydraulics of water and barrel
"Jerry Erickson" <jerroldoerickson@msn.com> wrote in message news:<41a5ffce$1_1@127.0.0.1>...
> Key words here are "head pressure"---there would be no difference in the
> force required to fill the upper barrel from any of the three bungs other
> than "line"loss (if you shortened the hose to fill from the lower bung you
> would have less line loss and therefore require less force to fill the drum,
> but the difference wouldn't be measureable without NASA scientists and
> equipment).
>
> Jerry
> "Jeepers" <moomesa@INVALIDfnbnet.net> wrote in message
> news:moomesa-F31228.08110724112004@news-east.newsfeeds.com...
> > O.k. got an argument to solve.
> >
> > Have a 55 gal. barrel, on a 8 to 10 foot tall platform (to provide water
> > in deer camp).
> >
> > It has three bungs. One on the bottom side (drain/flow). Two on the top
> > side. One for vent, one for fill.
> >
> > There is another barrel in the bed of a pickup, full of water. There are
> > two pumps, one hand diaphragm type or one typical 12v bilge type. This
> > is the source of water to fill the high barrel.
> >
> > The argument is that the water can be just as easily pumped into the
> > barrel through the drain bung, from below, as it could be through the
> > top fill bung. There is an assertion that the pressure inside the hose
> > is greater in the lower fill hose than in the upper fill hose, due to
> > the weight of the water in the barrel as it fills.
> >
> > Which, if any, fill location would require more or less force to fill
> > this barrel: the top hole or the bottom hole?
> >
> > --
> > Member AAAAAAAA
> > American Association Against Acronym Abuse And Also Ambiguity.
> >
> > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
> > News==----
> > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
> > Newsgroups
> > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
> > =----
> >
Well to be pedantic (this has been mentioned several times up thread)
the effort to fill will be somewhat less filling through the bottom as
you start with a partly or completely empty barrel. Assuming an empty
barrel about 3' high, the effort at beginning will be about 1.2 or 1.3
psi less than when full.
Harry K
> Key words here are "head pressure"---there would be no difference in the
> force required to fill the upper barrel from any of the three bungs other
> than "line"loss (if you shortened the hose to fill from the lower bung you
> would have less line loss and therefore require less force to fill the drum,
> but the difference wouldn't be measureable without NASA scientists and
> equipment).
>
> Jerry
> "Jeepers" <moomesa@INVALIDfnbnet.net> wrote in message
> news:moomesa-F31228.08110724112004@news-east.newsfeeds.com...
> > O.k. got an argument to solve.
> >
> > Have a 55 gal. barrel, on a 8 to 10 foot tall platform (to provide water
> > in deer camp).
> >
> > It has three bungs. One on the bottom side (drain/flow). Two on the top
> > side. One for vent, one for fill.
> >
> > There is another barrel in the bed of a pickup, full of water. There are
> > two pumps, one hand diaphragm type or one typical 12v bilge type. This
> > is the source of water to fill the high barrel.
> >
> > The argument is that the water can be just as easily pumped into the
> > barrel through the drain bung, from below, as it could be through the
> > top fill bung. There is an assertion that the pressure inside the hose
> > is greater in the lower fill hose than in the upper fill hose, due to
> > the weight of the water in the barrel as it fills.
> >
> > Which, if any, fill location would require more or less force to fill
> > this barrel: the top hole or the bottom hole?
> >
> > --
> > Member AAAAAAAA
> > American Association Against Acronym Abuse And Also Ambiguity.
> >
> > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
> > News==----
> > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
> > Newsgroups
> > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
> > =----
> >
Well to be pedantic (this has been mentioned several times up thread)
the effort to fill will be somewhat less filling through the bottom as
you start with a partly or completely empty barrel. Assuming an empty
barrel about 3' high, the effort at beginning will be about 1.2 or 1.3
psi less than when full.
Harry K
