Maybe slightly OT. trailer winch wiring
05-28-2006, 12:22 PM
#81
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Maybe slightly OT. trailer winch wiring
DougW wrote:
>
> Mike Romain did pass the time by typing:
> > What 'are' you going on about?
> >
> > A diode prevents reverse current and eats .8 volts out of the circuit.
> > It has zip to do with surges or spikes or anything else.
> >
> > You don't see diodes on starter relays nor do you see or need them on
> > winch relays.
> >
> > Now if you are screwing around with an LED to show the winch is on or
> > off on a single circuit winch like the OP's, then that LED circuit would
> > need two diodes.
>
> Some relay coils have internal diodes.
>
> Works like this.
>
> coil
> __________ground
> ||( |
> ||( |
> ||( V diode
> ||( |
> ||(_____|____positive
>
> The diode clips the impulse that comes out when the coil
> is turned off. It's put in backwards so it won't flow
> under normal conditions.
>
> A better pic is about halfway down this page
> http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/diode.htm
>
> --
> DougW
That is fine for electronic circuits. A winch uses battery cables and
is an 'electric' circuit. No electronics in the circuit to fry. Same
for the engine starter. It too uses battery cables and no electronics
in the circuit to fry.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Mike Romain did pass the time by typing:
> > What 'are' you going on about?
> >
> > A diode prevents reverse current and eats .8 volts out of the circuit.
> > It has zip to do with surges or spikes or anything else.
> >
> > You don't see diodes on starter relays nor do you see or need them on
> > winch relays.
> >
> > Now if you are screwing around with an LED to show the winch is on or
> > off on a single circuit winch like the OP's, then that LED circuit would
> > need two diodes.
>
> Some relay coils have internal diodes.
>
> Works like this.
>
> coil
> __________ground
> ||( |
> ||( |
> ||( V diode
> ||( |
> ||(_____|____positive
>
> The diode clips the impulse that comes out when the coil
> is turned off. It's put in backwards so it won't flow
> under normal conditions.
>
> A better pic is about halfway down this page
> http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/diode.htm
>
> --
> DougW
That is fine for electronic circuits. A winch uses battery cables and
is an 'electric' circuit. No electronics in the circuit to fry. Same
for the engine starter. It too uses battery cables and no electronics
in the circuit to fry.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
05-28-2006, 12:22 PM
#82
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Maybe slightly OT. trailer winch wiring
DougW wrote:
>
> Mike Romain did pass the time by typing:
> > What 'are' you going on about?
> >
> > A diode prevents reverse current and eats .8 volts out of the circuit.
> > It has zip to do with surges or spikes or anything else.
> >
> > You don't see diodes on starter relays nor do you see or need them on
> > winch relays.
> >
> > Now if you are screwing around with an LED to show the winch is on or
> > off on a single circuit winch like the OP's, then that LED circuit would
> > need two diodes.
>
> Some relay coils have internal diodes.
>
> Works like this.
>
> coil
> __________ground
> ||( |
> ||( |
> ||( V diode
> ||( |
> ||(_____|____positive
>
> The diode clips the impulse that comes out when the coil
> is turned off. It's put in backwards so it won't flow
> under normal conditions.
>
> A better pic is about halfway down this page
> http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/diode.htm
>
> --
> DougW
That is fine for electronic circuits. A winch uses battery cables and
is an 'electric' circuit. No electronics in the circuit to fry. Same
for the engine starter. It too uses battery cables and no electronics
in the circuit to fry.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Mike Romain did pass the time by typing:
> > What 'are' you going on about?
> >
> > A diode prevents reverse current and eats .8 volts out of the circuit.
> > It has zip to do with surges or spikes or anything else.
> >
> > You don't see diodes on starter relays nor do you see or need them on
> > winch relays.
> >
> > Now if you are screwing around with an LED to show the winch is on or
> > off on a single circuit winch like the OP's, then that LED circuit would
> > need two diodes.
>
> Some relay coils have internal diodes.
>
> Works like this.
>
> coil
> __________ground
> ||( |
> ||( |
> ||( V diode
> ||( |
> ||(_____|____positive
>
> The diode clips the impulse that comes out when the coil
> is turned off. It's put in backwards so it won't flow
> under normal conditions.
>
> A better pic is about halfway down this page
> http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/diode.htm
>
> --
> DougW
That is fine for electronic circuits. A winch uses battery cables and
is an 'electric' circuit. No electronics in the circuit to fry. Same
for the engine starter. It too uses battery cables and no electronics
in the circuit to fry.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
05-28-2006, 01:58 PM
#83
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Maybe slightly OT. trailer winch wiring
Mike Romain proclaimed:
> What 'are' you going on about?
An electronics engineering education and reasonably successful career,
why?
>
> A diode prevents reverse current and eats .8 volts out of the circuit.
> It has zip to do with surges or spikes or anything else.
Actually a typical single or parallel junction silicon diode has a
typical voltage drop of 700 millivolts across most of the forward bias
current range. As for not having zip to to with spikes, you may want to
crack an electronics book before going beyond your level of knowledge.
>
> You don't see diodes on starter relays nor do you see or need them on
> winch relays.
If you open those ISO relays you may find small suppressor resistors on
them. Some such as the Bosch round ones have a cheap diode as well.
>
> Now if you are screwing around with an LED to show the winch is on or
> off on a single circuit winch like the OP's, then that LED circuit would
> need two diodes.
LEDs are diodes.
If you are switching high current into an inductive load, it helps to
have suppression for the inductive kick you get when you drop the
current quickly. Sometimes the series inductance of long wiring runs
can suppress it enough not to cause damage...or you can cheaply do it
with a suppression diode.
If you poke around inside some of the black box devices on an
electronically controlled vehicle you'll find suppressor diodes and
resistors.
On the starter, the battery itself acts as a very nice suppressor for
the inductive spikes you get as you drop the high current.
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Lon wrote:
>
>>If you have any electonics near a relay coil, is good idea to use a
>>diode or even better a diode and resistor to get rid of the inductive
>>kick that can literally punch holes in solid state devices.
>>Those need a bit of current and high voltage to deal with the kick.
>>
>>Some folks idiot proof connections with diodes... kinda like the phone
>>sets that work no matter whether tip and ring are reversed or not.
>>
>>L.W.(Bill) ------ III proclaimed:
>>
>>
>>>Hi Brian,
>>> I can't think of a reason you would need a diode with a relay. Just
>>>hook it up like you see used on a car and starter. With a push button
>>>hot triggering the solenoid.
>>> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
>>>mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>>>
>>>Bulletsnbrains wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hey Bill,
>>>>
>>>>The battery is a full size auto battery. I think the intermitent usage of
>>>>this winch probably doesnt deserve any more than this.
>>>>Did you check out the link I sent in the OP.? I would sub relays into the
>>>>circuit instead of solenoids. My concern, do I need to protect the relays
>>>>with Diodes? This would be on the 30/51 "Load" connection on each relay. It
>>>>would prevent current flow back into the relays that are unused during the
>>>>forward or reverse operation.
>>>>
>>>>Brian
> What 'are' you going on about?
An electronics engineering education and reasonably successful career,
why?
>
> A diode prevents reverse current and eats .8 volts out of the circuit.
> It has zip to do with surges or spikes or anything else.
Actually a typical single or parallel junction silicon diode has a
typical voltage drop of 700 millivolts across most of the forward bias
current range. As for not having zip to to with spikes, you may want to
crack an electronics book before going beyond your level of knowledge.
>
> You don't see diodes on starter relays nor do you see or need them on
> winch relays.
If you open those ISO relays you may find small suppressor resistors on
them. Some such as the Bosch round ones have a cheap diode as well.
>
> Now if you are screwing around with an LED to show the winch is on or
> off on a single circuit winch like the OP's, then that LED circuit would
> need two diodes.
LEDs are diodes.
If you are switching high current into an inductive load, it helps to
have suppression for the inductive kick you get when you drop the
current quickly. Sometimes the series inductance of long wiring runs
can suppress it enough not to cause damage...or you can cheaply do it
with a suppression diode.
If you poke around inside some of the black box devices on an
electronically controlled vehicle you'll find suppressor diodes and
resistors.
On the starter, the battery itself acts as a very nice suppressor for
the inductive spikes you get as you drop the high current.
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Lon wrote:
>
>>If you have any electonics near a relay coil, is good idea to use a
>>diode or even better a diode and resistor to get rid of the inductive
>>kick that can literally punch holes in solid state devices.
>>Those need a bit of current and high voltage to deal with the kick.
>>
>>Some folks idiot proof connections with diodes... kinda like the phone
>>sets that work no matter whether tip and ring are reversed or not.
>>
>>L.W.(Bill) ------ III proclaimed:
>>
>>
>>>Hi Brian,
>>> I can't think of a reason you would need a diode with a relay. Just
>>>hook it up like you see used on a car and starter. With a push button
>>>hot triggering the solenoid.
>>> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
>>>mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>>>
>>>Bulletsnbrains wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hey Bill,
>>>>
>>>>The battery is a full size auto battery. I think the intermitent usage of
>>>>this winch probably doesnt deserve any more than this.
>>>>Did you check out the link I sent in the OP.? I would sub relays into the
>>>>circuit instead of solenoids. My concern, do I need to protect the relays
>>>>with Diodes? This would be on the 30/51 "Load" connection on each relay. It
>>>>would prevent current flow back into the relays that are unused during the
>>>>forward or reverse operation.
>>>>
>>>>Brian
05-28-2006, 01:58 PM
#84
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Maybe slightly OT. trailer winch wiring
Mike Romain proclaimed:
> What 'are' you going on about?
An electronics engineering education and reasonably successful career,
why?
>
> A diode prevents reverse current and eats .8 volts out of the circuit.
> It has zip to do with surges or spikes or anything else.
Actually a typical single or parallel junction silicon diode has a
typical voltage drop of 700 millivolts across most of the forward bias
current range. As for not having zip to to with spikes, you may want to
crack an electronics book before going beyond your level of knowledge.
>
> You don't see diodes on starter relays nor do you see or need them on
> winch relays.
If you open those ISO relays you may find small suppressor resistors on
them. Some such as the Bosch round ones have a cheap diode as well.
>
> Now if you are screwing around with an LED to show the winch is on or
> off on a single circuit winch like the OP's, then that LED circuit would
> need two diodes.
LEDs are diodes.
If you are switching high current into an inductive load, it helps to
have suppression for the inductive kick you get when you drop the
current quickly. Sometimes the series inductance of long wiring runs
can suppress it enough not to cause damage...or you can cheaply do it
with a suppression diode.
If you poke around inside some of the black box devices on an
electronically controlled vehicle you'll find suppressor diodes and
resistors.
On the starter, the battery itself acts as a very nice suppressor for
the inductive spikes you get as you drop the high current.
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Lon wrote:
>
>>If you have any electonics near a relay coil, is good idea to use a
>>diode or even better a diode and resistor to get rid of the inductive
>>kick that can literally punch holes in solid state devices.
>>Those need a bit of current and high voltage to deal with the kick.
>>
>>Some folks idiot proof connections with diodes... kinda like the phone
>>sets that work no matter whether tip and ring are reversed or not.
>>
>>L.W.(Bill) ------ III proclaimed:
>>
>>
>>>Hi Brian,
>>> I can't think of a reason you would need a diode with a relay. Just
>>>hook it up like you see used on a car and starter. With a push button
>>>hot triggering the solenoid.
>>> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
>>>mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>>>
>>>Bulletsnbrains wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hey Bill,
>>>>
>>>>The battery is a full size auto battery. I think the intermitent usage of
>>>>this winch probably doesnt deserve any more than this.
>>>>Did you check out the link I sent in the OP.? I would sub relays into the
>>>>circuit instead of solenoids. My concern, do I need to protect the relays
>>>>with Diodes? This would be on the 30/51 "Load" connection on each relay. It
>>>>would prevent current flow back into the relays that are unused during the
>>>>forward or reverse operation.
>>>>
>>>>Brian
> What 'are' you going on about?
An electronics engineering education and reasonably successful career,
why?
>
> A diode prevents reverse current and eats .8 volts out of the circuit.
> It has zip to do with surges or spikes or anything else.
Actually a typical single or parallel junction silicon diode has a
typical voltage drop of 700 millivolts across most of the forward bias
current range. As for not having zip to to with spikes, you may want to
crack an electronics book before going beyond your level of knowledge.
>
> You don't see diodes on starter relays nor do you see or need them on
> winch relays.
If you open those ISO relays you may find small suppressor resistors on
them. Some such as the Bosch round ones have a cheap diode as well.
>
> Now if you are screwing around with an LED to show the winch is on or
> off on a single circuit winch like the OP's, then that LED circuit would
> need two diodes.
LEDs are diodes.
If you are switching high current into an inductive load, it helps to
have suppression for the inductive kick you get when you drop the
current quickly. Sometimes the series inductance of long wiring runs
can suppress it enough not to cause damage...or you can cheaply do it
with a suppression diode.
If you poke around inside some of the black box devices on an
electronically controlled vehicle you'll find suppressor diodes and
resistors.
On the starter, the battery itself acts as a very nice suppressor for
the inductive spikes you get as you drop the high current.
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Lon wrote:
>
>>If you have any electonics near a relay coil, is good idea to use a
>>diode or even better a diode and resistor to get rid of the inductive
>>kick that can literally punch holes in solid state devices.
>>Those need a bit of current and high voltage to deal with the kick.
>>
>>Some folks idiot proof connections with diodes... kinda like the phone
>>sets that work no matter whether tip and ring are reversed or not.
>>
>>L.W.(Bill) ------ III proclaimed:
>>
>>
>>>Hi Brian,
>>> I can't think of a reason you would need a diode with a relay. Just
>>>hook it up like you see used on a car and starter. With a push button
>>>hot triggering the solenoid.
>>> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
>>>mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>>>
>>>Bulletsnbrains wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hey Bill,
>>>>
>>>>The battery is a full size auto battery. I think the intermitent usage of
>>>>this winch probably doesnt deserve any more than this.
>>>>Did you check out the link I sent in the OP.? I would sub relays into the
>>>>circuit instead of solenoids. My concern, do I need to protect the relays
>>>>with Diodes? This would be on the 30/51 "Load" connection on each relay. It
>>>>would prevent current flow back into the relays that are unused during the
>>>>forward or reverse operation.
>>>>
>>>>Brian
05-28-2006, 01:58 PM
#85
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Maybe slightly OT. trailer winch wiring
Mike Romain proclaimed:
> What 'are' you going on about?
An electronics engineering education and reasonably successful career,
why?
>
> A diode prevents reverse current and eats .8 volts out of the circuit.
> It has zip to do with surges or spikes or anything else.
Actually a typical single or parallel junction silicon diode has a
typical voltage drop of 700 millivolts across most of the forward bias
current range. As for not having zip to to with spikes, you may want to
crack an electronics book before going beyond your level of knowledge.
>
> You don't see diodes on starter relays nor do you see or need them on
> winch relays.
If you open those ISO relays you may find small suppressor resistors on
them. Some such as the Bosch round ones have a cheap diode as well.
>
> Now if you are screwing around with an LED to show the winch is on or
> off on a single circuit winch like the OP's, then that LED circuit would
> need two diodes.
LEDs are diodes.
If you are switching high current into an inductive load, it helps to
have suppression for the inductive kick you get when you drop the
current quickly. Sometimes the series inductance of long wiring runs
can suppress it enough not to cause damage...or you can cheaply do it
with a suppression diode.
If you poke around inside some of the black box devices on an
electronically controlled vehicle you'll find suppressor diodes and
resistors.
On the starter, the battery itself acts as a very nice suppressor for
the inductive spikes you get as you drop the high current.
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Lon wrote:
>
>>If you have any electonics near a relay coil, is good idea to use a
>>diode or even better a diode and resistor to get rid of the inductive
>>kick that can literally punch holes in solid state devices.
>>Those need a bit of current and high voltage to deal with the kick.
>>
>>Some folks idiot proof connections with diodes... kinda like the phone
>>sets that work no matter whether tip and ring are reversed or not.
>>
>>L.W.(Bill) ------ III proclaimed:
>>
>>
>>>Hi Brian,
>>> I can't think of a reason you would need a diode with a relay. Just
>>>hook it up like you see used on a car and starter. With a push button
>>>hot triggering the solenoid.
>>> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
>>>mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>>>
>>>Bulletsnbrains wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hey Bill,
>>>>
>>>>The battery is a full size auto battery. I think the intermitent usage of
>>>>this winch probably doesnt deserve any more than this.
>>>>Did you check out the link I sent in the OP.? I would sub relays into the
>>>>circuit instead of solenoids. My concern, do I need to protect the relays
>>>>with Diodes? This would be on the 30/51 "Load" connection on each relay. It
>>>>would prevent current flow back into the relays that are unused during the
>>>>forward or reverse operation.
>>>>
>>>>Brian
> What 'are' you going on about?
An electronics engineering education and reasonably successful career,
why?
>
> A diode prevents reverse current and eats .8 volts out of the circuit.
> It has zip to do with surges or spikes or anything else.
Actually a typical single or parallel junction silicon diode has a
typical voltage drop of 700 millivolts across most of the forward bias
current range. As for not having zip to to with spikes, you may want to
crack an electronics book before going beyond your level of knowledge.
>
> You don't see diodes on starter relays nor do you see or need them on
> winch relays.
If you open those ISO relays you may find small suppressor resistors on
them. Some such as the Bosch round ones have a cheap diode as well.
>
> Now if you are screwing around with an LED to show the winch is on or
> off on a single circuit winch like the OP's, then that LED circuit would
> need two diodes.
LEDs are diodes.
If you are switching high current into an inductive load, it helps to
have suppression for the inductive kick you get when you drop the
current quickly. Sometimes the series inductance of long wiring runs
can suppress it enough not to cause damage...or you can cheaply do it
with a suppression diode.
If you poke around inside some of the black box devices on an
electronically controlled vehicle you'll find suppressor diodes and
resistors.
On the starter, the battery itself acts as a very nice suppressor for
the inductive spikes you get as you drop the high current.
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Lon wrote:
>
>>If you have any electonics near a relay coil, is good idea to use a
>>diode or even better a diode and resistor to get rid of the inductive
>>kick that can literally punch holes in solid state devices.
>>Those need a bit of current and high voltage to deal with the kick.
>>
>>Some folks idiot proof connections with diodes... kinda like the phone
>>sets that work no matter whether tip and ring are reversed or not.
>>
>>L.W.(Bill) ------ III proclaimed:
>>
>>
>>>Hi Brian,
>>> I can't think of a reason you would need a diode with a relay. Just
>>>hook it up like you see used on a car and starter. With a push button
>>>hot triggering the solenoid.
>>> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
>>>mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>>>
>>>Bulletsnbrains wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hey Bill,
>>>>
>>>>The battery is a full size auto battery. I think the intermitent usage of
>>>>this winch probably doesnt deserve any more than this.
>>>>Did you check out the link I sent in the OP.? I would sub relays into the
>>>>circuit instead of solenoids. My concern, do I need to protect the relays
>>>>with Diodes? This would be on the 30/51 "Load" connection on each relay. It
>>>>would prevent current flow back into the relays that are unused during the
>>>>forward or reverse operation.
>>>>
>>>>Brian
05-28-2006, 02:05 PM
#86
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Maybe slightly OT. trailer winch wiring
Mike Romain proclaimed:
> DougW wrote:
>
>>Mike Romain did pass the time by typing:
>>
>>>What 'are' you going on about?
>>>
>>>A diode prevents reverse current and eats .8 volts out of the circuit.
>>>It has zip to do with surges or spikes or anything else.
>>>
>>>You don't see diodes on starter relays nor do you see or need them on
>>>winch relays.
>>>
>>>Now if you are screwing around with an LED to show the winch is on or
>>>off on a single circuit winch like the OP's, then that LED circuit would
>>>need two diodes.
>>
>>Some relay coils have internal diodes.
>>
>>Works like this.
>>
>>coil
>> __________ground
>>||( |
>>||( |
>>||( V diode
>>||( |
>>||(_____|____positive
>>
>>The diode clips the impulse that comes out when the coil
>>is turned off. It's put in backwards so it won't flow
>>under normal conditions.
>>
>>A better pic is about halfway down this page
>>http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/diode.htm
>>
>>--
>>DougW
>
>
> That is fine for electronic circuits. A winch uses battery cables and
> is an 'electric' circuit. No electronics in the circuit to fry. Same
> for the engine starter. It too uses battery cables and no electronics
> in the circuit to fry.
>
Sorry Mike but you are wrong. That winch may be an "electric" circuit
but the wiring to it is connected to "electronic" circuits. If the
wiring that connects to the winch and winch controls has enough
resistance to help hold down the inductive kick OR if it is really low
resistance and inductance AND the other ends terminate at your battery,
the inductive kicks *may* be suppressed by either crappy cabling or
the fact that a battery makes an excellent suppressor of very high
currents.
However, if the wiring to the winch is wired such that the inductive
kick transients can get to anything electronic before suppressed by the
battery or similar, you can damage the electronics.
Some folks use diodes....some like me prefer Ovshinsky voltage limiters
due to their higher speed, higher operating voltage, generally higher
current capability [plus they are only shorting the current above their
switching voltage] and their less likelihood to become expensive lumps
of conducting silicon if given overcurrentsl
Plus you can wire them to offer protection against "the human factor".
> DougW wrote:
>
>>Mike Romain did pass the time by typing:
>>
>>>What 'are' you going on about?
>>>
>>>A diode prevents reverse current and eats .8 volts out of the circuit.
>>>It has zip to do with surges or spikes or anything else.
>>>
>>>You don't see diodes on starter relays nor do you see or need them on
>>>winch relays.
>>>
>>>Now if you are screwing around with an LED to show the winch is on or
>>>off on a single circuit winch like the OP's, then that LED circuit would
>>>need two diodes.
>>
>>Some relay coils have internal diodes.
>>
>>Works like this.
>>
>>coil
>> __________ground
>>||( |
>>||( |
>>||( V diode
>>||( |
>>||(_____|____positive
>>
>>The diode clips the impulse that comes out when the coil
>>is turned off. It's put in backwards so it won't flow
>>under normal conditions.
>>
>>A better pic is about halfway down this page
>>http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/diode.htm
>>
>>--
>>DougW
>
>
> That is fine for electronic circuits. A winch uses battery cables and
> is an 'electric' circuit. No electronics in the circuit to fry. Same
> for the engine starter. It too uses battery cables and no electronics
> in the circuit to fry.
>
Sorry Mike but you are wrong. That winch may be an "electric" circuit
but the wiring to it is connected to "electronic" circuits. If the
wiring that connects to the winch and winch controls has enough
resistance to help hold down the inductive kick OR if it is really low
resistance and inductance AND the other ends terminate at your battery,
the inductive kicks *may* be suppressed by either crappy cabling or
the fact that a battery makes an excellent suppressor of very high
currents.
However, if the wiring to the winch is wired such that the inductive
kick transients can get to anything electronic before suppressed by the
battery or similar, you can damage the electronics.
Some folks use diodes....some like me prefer Ovshinsky voltage limiters
due to their higher speed, higher operating voltage, generally higher
current capability [plus they are only shorting the current above their
switching voltage] and their less likelihood to become expensive lumps
of conducting silicon if given overcurrentsl
Plus you can wire them to offer protection against "the human factor".
05-28-2006, 02:05 PM
#87
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Maybe slightly OT. trailer winch wiring
Mike Romain proclaimed:
> DougW wrote:
>
>>Mike Romain did pass the time by typing:
>>
>>>What 'are' you going on about?
>>>
>>>A diode prevents reverse current and eats .8 volts out of the circuit.
>>>It has zip to do with surges or spikes or anything else.
>>>
>>>You don't see diodes on starter relays nor do you see or need them on
>>>winch relays.
>>>
>>>Now if you are screwing around with an LED to show the winch is on or
>>>off on a single circuit winch like the OP's, then that LED circuit would
>>>need two diodes.
>>
>>Some relay coils have internal diodes.
>>
>>Works like this.
>>
>>coil
>> __________ground
>>||( |
>>||( |
>>||( V diode
>>||( |
>>||(_____|____positive
>>
>>The diode clips the impulse that comes out when the coil
>>is turned off. It's put in backwards so it won't flow
>>under normal conditions.
>>
>>A better pic is about halfway down this page
>>http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/diode.htm
>>
>>--
>>DougW
>
>
> That is fine for electronic circuits. A winch uses battery cables and
> is an 'electric' circuit. No electronics in the circuit to fry. Same
> for the engine starter. It too uses battery cables and no electronics
> in the circuit to fry.
>
Sorry Mike but you are wrong. That winch may be an "electric" circuit
but the wiring to it is connected to "electronic" circuits. If the
wiring that connects to the winch and winch controls has enough
resistance to help hold down the inductive kick OR if it is really low
resistance and inductance AND the other ends terminate at your battery,
the inductive kicks *may* be suppressed by either crappy cabling or
the fact that a battery makes an excellent suppressor of very high
currents.
However, if the wiring to the winch is wired such that the inductive
kick transients can get to anything electronic before suppressed by the
battery or similar, you can damage the electronics.
Some folks use diodes....some like me prefer Ovshinsky voltage limiters
due to their higher speed, higher operating voltage, generally higher
current capability [plus they are only shorting the current above their
switching voltage] and their less likelihood to become expensive lumps
of conducting silicon if given overcurrentsl
Plus you can wire them to offer protection against "the human factor".
> DougW wrote:
>
>>Mike Romain did pass the time by typing:
>>
>>>What 'are' you going on about?
>>>
>>>A diode prevents reverse current and eats .8 volts out of the circuit.
>>>It has zip to do with surges or spikes or anything else.
>>>
>>>You don't see diodes on starter relays nor do you see or need them on
>>>winch relays.
>>>
>>>Now if you are screwing around with an LED to show the winch is on or
>>>off on a single circuit winch like the OP's, then that LED circuit would
>>>need two diodes.
>>
>>Some relay coils have internal diodes.
>>
>>Works like this.
>>
>>coil
>> __________ground
>>||( |
>>||( |
>>||( V diode
>>||( |
>>||(_____|____positive
>>
>>The diode clips the impulse that comes out when the coil
>>is turned off. It's put in backwards so it won't flow
>>under normal conditions.
>>
>>A better pic is about halfway down this page
>>http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/diode.htm
>>
>>--
>>DougW
>
>
> That is fine for electronic circuits. A winch uses battery cables and
> is an 'electric' circuit. No electronics in the circuit to fry. Same
> for the engine starter. It too uses battery cables and no electronics
> in the circuit to fry.
>
Sorry Mike but you are wrong. That winch may be an "electric" circuit
but the wiring to it is connected to "electronic" circuits. If the
wiring that connects to the winch and winch controls has enough
resistance to help hold down the inductive kick OR if it is really low
resistance and inductance AND the other ends terminate at your battery,
the inductive kicks *may* be suppressed by either crappy cabling or
the fact that a battery makes an excellent suppressor of very high
currents.
However, if the wiring to the winch is wired such that the inductive
kick transients can get to anything electronic before suppressed by the
battery or similar, you can damage the electronics.
Some folks use diodes....some like me prefer Ovshinsky voltage limiters
due to their higher speed, higher operating voltage, generally higher
current capability [plus they are only shorting the current above their
switching voltage] and their less likelihood to become expensive lumps
of conducting silicon if given overcurrentsl
Plus you can wire them to offer protection against "the human factor".
05-28-2006, 02:05 PM
#88
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Maybe slightly OT. trailer winch wiring
Mike Romain proclaimed:
> DougW wrote:
>
>>Mike Romain did pass the time by typing:
>>
>>>What 'are' you going on about?
>>>
>>>A diode prevents reverse current and eats .8 volts out of the circuit.
>>>It has zip to do with surges or spikes or anything else.
>>>
>>>You don't see diodes on starter relays nor do you see or need them on
>>>winch relays.
>>>
>>>Now if you are screwing around with an LED to show the winch is on or
>>>off on a single circuit winch like the OP's, then that LED circuit would
>>>need two diodes.
>>
>>Some relay coils have internal diodes.
>>
>>Works like this.
>>
>>coil
>> __________ground
>>||( |
>>||( |
>>||( V diode
>>||( |
>>||(_____|____positive
>>
>>The diode clips the impulse that comes out when the coil
>>is turned off. It's put in backwards so it won't flow
>>under normal conditions.
>>
>>A better pic is about halfway down this page
>>http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/diode.htm
>>
>>--
>>DougW
>
>
> That is fine for electronic circuits. A winch uses battery cables and
> is an 'electric' circuit. No electronics in the circuit to fry. Same
> for the engine starter. It too uses battery cables and no electronics
> in the circuit to fry.
>
Sorry Mike but you are wrong. That winch may be an "electric" circuit
but the wiring to it is connected to "electronic" circuits. If the
wiring that connects to the winch and winch controls has enough
resistance to help hold down the inductive kick OR if it is really low
resistance and inductance AND the other ends terminate at your battery,
the inductive kicks *may* be suppressed by either crappy cabling or
the fact that a battery makes an excellent suppressor of very high
currents.
However, if the wiring to the winch is wired such that the inductive
kick transients can get to anything electronic before suppressed by the
battery or similar, you can damage the electronics.
Some folks use diodes....some like me prefer Ovshinsky voltage limiters
due to their higher speed, higher operating voltage, generally higher
current capability [plus they are only shorting the current above their
switching voltage] and their less likelihood to become expensive lumps
of conducting silicon if given overcurrentsl
Plus you can wire them to offer protection against "the human factor".
> DougW wrote:
>
>>Mike Romain did pass the time by typing:
>>
>>>What 'are' you going on about?
>>>
>>>A diode prevents reverse current and eats .8 volts out of the circuit.
>>>It has zip to do with surges or spikes or anything else.
>>>
>>>You don't see diodes on starter relays nor do you see or need them on
>>>winch relays.
>>>
>>>Now if you are screwing around with an LED to show the winch is on or
>>>off on a single circuit winch like the OP's, then that LED circuit would
>>>need two diodes.
>>
>>Some relay coils have internal diodes.
>>
>>Works like this.
>>
>>coil
>> __________ground
>>||( |
>>||( |
>>||( V diode
>>||( |
>>||(_____|____positive
>>
>>The diode clips the impulse that comes out when the coil
>>is turned off. It's put in backwards so it won't flow
>>under normal conditions.
>>
>>A better pic is about halfway down this page
>>http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/diode.htm
>>
>>--
>>DougW
>
>
> That is fine for electronic circuits. A winch uses battery cables and
> is an 'electric' circuit. No electronics in the circuit to fry. Same
> for the engine starter. It too uses battery cables and no electronics
> in the circuit to fry.
>
Sorry Mike but you are wrong. That winch may be an "electric" circuit
but the wiring to it is connected to "electronic" circuits. If the
wiring that connects to the winch and winch controls has enough
resistance to help hold down the inductive kick OR if it is really low
resistance and inductance AND the other ends terminate at your battery,
the inductive kicks *may* be suppressed by either crappy cabling or
the fact that a battery makes an excellent suppressor of very high
currents.
However, if the wiring to the winch is wired such that the inductive
kick transients can get to anything electronic before suppressed by the
battery or similar, you can damage the electronics.
Some folks use diodes....some like me prefer Ovshinsky voltage limiters
due to their higher speed, higher operating voltage, generally higher
current capability [plus they are only shorting the current above their
switching voltage] and their less likelihood to become expensive lumps
of conducting silicon if given overcurrentsl
Plus you can wire them to offer protection against "the human factor".
05-28-2006, 02:09 PM
#89
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Maybe slightly OT. trailer winch wiring
Although it begins to resemble a rube goldbergian kludge, you could tap
the high current winding for the winch for the relay drive.
To keep the larger wiring budget cheaper by keeping it short... do the
same thing modern vehicles do. Drive the big solenoid with a small
automotive relay just like the starter relay that controls drive to the
starter solenoid on most vehicles. That way, your high current paths
are limited to the winch and a very short hunk of wire to and from the
starter solenoids outputs.
Bulletsnbrains proclaimed:
> Hi Mike,
>
> I decided to take everyones advice on this. I bought 4 Jeep/Ford solenoids
> at the local Farm & Fleet today. I still need to pick up some wire, but am
> thinking battery cables might do the trick if I can find them cheap enough.
> It seems my project is getting more expensive everyday. Anyone know what the
> minimum gauge on the excite wires should be for these solenoids? I am taking
> a wild guess and say 18ga.
>
> Brian
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:44785124.8C61E9DA@sympatico.ca...
>
>>I do not believe the headlight relays are large enough to carry the
>>winch amp load.
>>
>>I stalled my winch once and smoked out the 4? ga. cables hot enough to
>>blow the heat shrink off them.
>>
>>The wiring is the same to just use solenoid relays instead, I would go
>>that route.
>>
>>Mike
>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>>
>>Bulletsnbrains wrote:
>>
>>>Ok,
>>>
>>>Here goes.... I am trying to wire an old "unknown" electric winch mounted
>>>on
>>>the trailer that will be used to haul Jeeps.( there's the slight on
>>>topic)
>>>
>>>I have the idea that it will have a 25' remote with momentary on-off-on
>>>toggle, and 4 relays. because the winch couldn't possibly be larger than
>>>3K
>>>lb. The question I would have is it nescessary to diode the relays
>>>because
>>>of the fact i'm not using solenoids? The relays are the typical firewall
>>>mount with the terminals 30/51, 85, 86, 87 connections rated at 30amp.
>>>
>>>I verified that the winch motor terminals(2) are the only electrical
>>>contacts. Reverse polarity and reverse motor rotation. No juice provided
>>>thru ground of trailer frame
>>>
>>>I found this link to some wiring diagrams and the last one is almost
>>>identical to the one I had thought out and drawn before my I'net search.
>>>http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?p=401241
>>>
>>>Brian
>>
>
>
the high current winding for the winch for the relay drive.
To keep the larger wiring budget cheaper by keeping it short... do the
same thing modern vehicles do. Drive the big solenoid with a small
automotive relay just like the starter relay that controls drive to the
starter solenoid on most vehicles. That way, your high current paths
are limited to the winch and a very short hunk of wire to and from the
starter solenoids outputs.
Bulletsnbrains proclaimed:
> Hi Mike,
>
> I decided to take everyones advice on this. I bought 4 Jeep/Ford solenoids
> at the local Farm & Fleet today. I still need to pick up some wire, but am
> thinking battery cables might do the trick if I can find them cheap enough.
> It seems my project is getting more expensive everyday. Anyone know what the
> minimum gauge on the excite wires should be for these solenoids? I am taking
> a wild guess and say 18ga.
>
> Brian
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:44785124.8C61E9DA@sympatico.ca...
>
>>I do not believe the headlight relays are large enough to carry the
>>winch amp load.
>>
>>I stalled my winch once and smoked out the 4? ga. cables hot enough to
>>blow the heat shrink off them.
>>
>>The wiring is the same to just use solenoid relays instead, I would go
>>that route.
>>
>>Mike
>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>>
>>Bulletsnbrains wrote:
>>
>>>Ok,
>>>
>>>Here goes.... I am trying to wire an old "unknown" electric winch mounted
>>>on
>>>the trailer that will be used to haul Jeeps.( there's the slight on
>>>topic)
>>>
>>>I have the idea that it will have a 25' remote with momentary on-off-on
>>>toggle, and 4 relays. because the winch couldn't possibly be larger than
>>>3K
>>>lb. The question I would have is it nescessary to diode the relays
>>>because
>>>of the fact i'm not using solenoids? The relays are the typical firewall
>>>mount with the terminals 30/51, 85, 86, 87 connections rated at 30amp.
>>>
>>>I verified that the winch motor terminals(2) are the only electrical
>>>contacts. Reverse polarity and reverse motor rotation. No juice provided
>>>thru ground of trailer frame
>>>
>>>I found this link to some wiring diagrams and the last one is almost
>>>identical to the one I had thought out and drawn before my I'net search.
>>>http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?p=401241
>>>
>>>Brian
>>
>
>
05-28-2006, 02:09 PM
#90
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Maybe slightly OT. trailer winch wiring
Although it begins to resemble a rube goldbergian kludge, you could tap
the high current winding for the winch for the relay drive.
To keep the larger wiring budget cheaper by keeping it short... do the
same thing modern vehicles do. Drive the big solenoid with a small
automotive relay just like the starter relay that controls drive to the
starter solenoid on most vehicles. That way, your high current paths
are limited to the winch and a very short hunk of wire to and from the
starter solenoids outputs.
Bulletsnbrains proclaimed:
> Hi Mike,
>
> I decided to take everyones advice on this. I bought 4 Jeep/Ford solenoids
> at the local Farm & Fleet today. I still need to pick up some wire, but am
> thinking battery cables might do the trick if I can find them cheap enough.
> It seems my project is getting more expensive everyday. Anyone know what the
> minimum gauge on the excite wires should be for these solenoids? I am taking
> a wild guess and say 18ga.
>
> Brian
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:44785124.8C61E9DA@sympatico.ca...
>
>>I do not believe the headlight relays are large enough to carry the
>>winch amp load.
>>
>>I stalled my winch once and smoked out the 4? ga. cables hot enough to
>>blow the heat shrink off them.
>>
>>The wiring is the same to just use solenoid relays instead, I would go
>>that route.
>>
>>Mike
>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>>
>>Bulletsnbrains wrote:
>>
>>>Ok,
>>>
>>>Here goes.... I am trying to wire an old "unknown" electric winch mounted
>>>on
>>>the trailer that will be used to haul Jeeps.( there's the slight on
>>>topic)
>>>
>>>I have the idea that it will have a 25' remote with momentary on-off-on
>>>toggle, and 4 relays. because the winch couldn't possibly be larger than
>>>3K
>>>lb. The question I would have is it nescessary to diode the relays
>>>because
>>>of the fact i'm not using solenoids? The relays are the typical firewall
>>>mount with the terminals 30/51, 85, 86, 87 connections rated at 30amp.
>>>
>>>I verified that the winch motor terminals(2) are the only electrical
>>>contacts. Reverse polarity and reverse motor rotation. No juice provided
>>>thru ground of trailer frame
>>>
>>>I found this link to some wiring diagrams and the last one is almost
>>>identical to the one I had thought out and drawn before my I'net search.
>>>http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?p=401241
>>>
>>>Brian
>>
>
>
the high current winding for the winch for the relay drive.
To keep the larger wiring budget cheaper by keeping it short... do the
same thing modern vehicles do. Drive the big solenoid with a small
automotive relay just like the starter relay that controls drive to the
starter solenoid on most vehicles. That way, your high current paths
are limited to the winch and a very short hunk of wire to and from the
starter solenoids outputs.
Bulletsnbrains proclaimed:
> Hi Mike,
>
> I decided to take everyones advice on this. I bought 4 Jeep/Ford solenoids
> at the local Farm & Fleet today. I still need to pick up some wire, but am
> thinking battery cables might do the trick if I can find them cheap enough.
> It seems my project is getting more expensive everyday. Anyone know what the
> minimum gauge on the excite wires should be for these solenoids? I am taking
> a wild guess and say 18ga.
>
> Brian
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:44785124.8C61E9DA@sympatico.ca...
>
>>I do not believe the headlight relays are large enough to carry the
>>winch amp load.
>>
>>I stalled my winch once and smoked out the 4? ga. cables hot enough to
>>blow the heat shrink off them.
>>
>>The wiring is the same to just use solenoid relays instead, I would go
>>that route.
>>
>>Mike
>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>>
>>Bulletsnbrains wrote:
>>
>>>Ok,
>>>
>>>Here goes.... I am trying to wire an old "unknown" electric winch mounted
>>>on
>>>the trailer that will be used to haul Jeeps.( there's the slight on
>>>topic)
>>>
>>>I have the idea that it will have a 25' remote with momentary on-off-on
>>>toggle, and 4 relays. because the winch couldn't possibly be larger than
>>>3K
>>>lb. The question I would have is it nescessary to diode the relays
>>>because
>>>of the fact i'm not using solenoids? The relays are the typical firewall
>>>mount with the terminals 30/51, 85, 86, 87 connections rated at 30amp.
>>>
>>>I verified that the winch motor terminals(2) are the only electrical
>>>contacts. Reverse polarity and reverse motor rotation. No juice provided
>>>thru ground of trailer frame
>>>
>>>I found this link to some wiring diagrams and the last one is almost
>>>identical to the one I had thought out and drawn before my I'net search.
>>>http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?p=401241
>>>
>>>Brian
>>
>
>