Spdloader

Wrong or right, my information came from a school Chrysler gave on their
braking systems I attended in 1996.

Cost is most often the driving factor, I think. Spend the least they can get
away with.

Spdloader



"Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@***.net> wrote in message
news:Cojwf.8771$V.4697@fed1read04...
> Klutz and Spdloader,
>
> Composite rotors used for several years on Jeeps were not installed by the
> factory to lessen rotor warping. They were a cost-reduced and
> significantly lightened rotor that warped so easily that Jeep went back to
> all-cast rotor. They were so light in weight that they weren't able to
> resist warping from both heat and uneven lugnut tightening. Newer
> Wranglers and JGCs have all-cast rotors that are far better able to
> resist heat and uneven-tightening induced warping.
>
> Jerry
>
> klutz wrote:
>> Your explanation is clear, but difficult to accept.
>>
>> "Spdloader" <askforit@nospam.triad.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:rlhwf.4160$Kp.3269@southeast.rr.com...
>>
>>>The rotors on your GC are made from two parts, the rotor, and the "hat".
>>>The hat is the part of the rotor that the wheel studs go through and your
>>>wheels bolt to. Further, the hat of the rotor rests flat against the
>>>wheel hub assembly, and you'll not warp that with 250ft. lbs of torque,
>>>much less the 125 you specified finding. The hat uses a different type of
>>>metal from the metal in the rotor, specifically to keep lug nut torque
>>>from being an issue with the rotors.
>>
>>
>> If the manufacturer changed the rotors to a 2-piece design with
>> dissimilar metals to guard against problems caused by over/under
>> torquing, why in the world have they continued to ignore the
>> cross-section thickness of the rotor? I agree that a thicker rotor
>> (e.g., Brembo) will minimize the probability of warpage. If Jeep's
>> engineers were genuinely concerned about the component, they would have
>> re-engineered all known weaknesses, including warpage. I have to applaud
>> Jeep's technology of rotor assembly. The joint between the 2 rotor
>> pieces is absolutely indetectable to the naked eye.
>>
>>
>>>Jeep changed over to this type of rotor during the first series of GC and
>>>has used them since.
>>
>>
>> Jeep recognized the advantages of the Akebono caliper in 2002. When were
>> the rotors changed to a 2-piece model?
>>
>>
>>>Lug nut torque was not the cause of the warpage on your rotors, hasn't
>>>been an issue in brake rotor warpage for years, but the general public
>>>won't let go of the idea.
>>
>>
>> If that's true, why does Jeep provide a recommended torque range for lug
>> nuts? Service procedures would be simpler for everyone if the
>> manufacturer's specification was "85 lbs/ft minimum, user selects
>> maximum".
>>
>>
>>>The tire installer is not to blame.
>>
>>
>> You say that random torquing wasn't a contributing factor, so that makes
>> the tire installer's methods sound? Hell, even the tire busters at
>> Costco use a torque wrench. If it didn't matter, would Costco bother?
>>
>>
>>>The rotors being too thin to start with, along with driving habits, stop
>>>and go or city driving, and overdriving the brakes (driving too fast,
>>>stopping at the last moment) are the most often the cause of brake
>>>pulsations, like it or not.
>>
>>
>> Not in this case. The Jeep is babied. Driving habits are excellent. A
>> Ford Thunderbird we owned previously (which was notoriously known for
>> rotor warpage) didn't exhibit any brake problems in 40,000 miles, likely
>> because of proper driving habits.
>>
>>
>>>The variations in lug nut torque are not out of line in the real world,
>>>rust, contamination, imperfect threads, grease, and dirt all affect the
>>>torque of the lug nuts. In perfect, laboratory conditions, with perfectly
>>>clean studs and nuts, lightly oiled, and a perfectly calibrated torque
>>>wrench, you might get 'em close, but that's not the real world.
>>
>>
>> I guess I'm pickier than most, because I refuse to use an impact wrench
>> on the lug nuts of any of my vehicles. Interestingly, the Jeep is the
>> only vehicle I've owned that needed rotor replacement before it needed a
>> brake job.
>>
>>
>>>By the way, with aluminum or magnesium wheels, lug nuts should be
>>>retorqued after driving 50 to 100 miles. ALWAYS.
>>
>>
>> You're right about that one. I learned that back in the 70s, when I
>> worked for Chrysler. I still have the same Snap-On Torqometer that I
>> used back then to torque lug nuts, including vehicles with left-handed
>> threads on the left side.
>>
>>
>>>Spdloader
>>>
>>>
>>>"klutz" <klutz@klutzville.net> wrote in message
>>>news:Azdwf.8592$V.4423@fed1read04...
>>>
>>>>My wife's 2003 Grand Cherokee fell victim to warped rotors, but after
>>>>completing the repairs, I'm surmising that her driving style didn't
>>>>cause the problem. While removing the lug nuts with a breaker bar, I
>>>>felt a disparity in the effort required to loosen them. Hmmm. That
>>>>can't be good. I wondered what the torque was on the other wheel, so I
>>>>used a torque wrench to loosen the lugs. Torque varied from 80 to 125
>>>>lb/ft on the R/F wheel! Just for safety's sake, I checked the rear
>>>>wheels. Same sad shape. Torque was all over the map. Moral of the
>>>>story - when the dealer is doing warranty work (power window) and asks
>>>>if you want your tires rotated - tell 'em "No, thanks" - unless you can
>>>>oversee the job. Incidentally, the old rotors and pads had 29,000 miles
>>>>and wore evenly, with no glazing or hot spots. The pads have 5/16 of
>>>>friction material left. My money says that the dealer's tire-jockey has
>>>>caused me (and likely many others) to suffer from warped rotors.
>>>>Intentionally, perhaps? Hard to prove. Word to the wise - the 2003 WJ
>>>>has rotors made of soft cast iron. Inattention to wheel torque can
>>>>destroy them in a heartbeat.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Jerry Bransford
> PP-ASEL N6TAY
> See the Geezer Jeep at
> http://members.***.net/jerrypb/

Spdloader

Wrong or right, my information came from a school Chrysler gave on their
braking systems I attended in 1996.

Cost is most often the driving factor, I think. Spend the least they can get
away with.

Spdloader



"Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@***.net> wrote in message
news:Cojwf.8771$V.4697@fed1read04...
> Klutz and Spdloader,
>
> Composite rotors used for several years on Jeeps were not installed by the
> factory to lessen rotor warping. They were a cost-reduced and
> significantly lightened rotor that warped so easily that Jeep went back to
> all-cast rotor. They were so light in weight that they weren't able to
> resist warping from both heat and uneven lugnut tightening. Newer
> Wranglers and JGCs have all-cast rotors that are far better able to
> resist heat and uneven-tightening induced warping.
>
> Jerry
>
> klutz wrote:
>> Your explanation is clear, but difficult to accept.
>>
>> "Spdloader" <askforit@nospam.triad.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:rlhwf.4160$Kp.3269@southeast.rr.com...
>>
>>>The rotors on your GC are made from two parts, the rotor, and the "hat".
>>>The hat is the part of the rotor that the wheel studs go through and your
>>>wheels bolt to. Further, the hat of the rotor rests flat against the
>>>wheel hub assembly, and you'll not warp that with 250ft. lbs of torque,
>>>much less the 125 you specified finding. The hat uses a different type of
>>>metal from the metal in the rotor, specifically to keep lug nut torque
>>>from being an issue with the rotors.
>>
>>
>> If the manufacturer changed the rotors to a 2-piece design with
>> dissimilar metals to guard against problems caused by over/under
>> torquing, why in the world have they continued to ignore the
>> cross-section thickness of the rotor? I agree that a thicker rotor
>> (e.g., Brembo) will minimize the probability of warpage. If Jeep's
>> engineers were genuinely concerned about the component, they would have
>> re-engineered all known weaknesses, including warpage. I have to applaud
>> Jeep's technology of rotor assembly. The joint between the 2 rotor
>> pieces is absolutely indetectable to the naked eye.
>>
>>
>>>Jeep changed over to this type of rotor during the first series of GC and
>>>has used them since.
>>
>>
>> Jeep recognized the advantages of the Akebono caliper in 2002. When were
>> the rotors changed to a 2-piece model?
>>
>>
>>>Lug nut torque was not the cause of the warpage on your rotors, hasn't
>>>been an issue in brake rotor warpage for years, but the general public
>>>won't let go of the idea.
>>
>>
>> If that's true, why does Jeep provide a recommended torque range for lug
>> nuts? Service procedures would be simpler for everyone if the
>> manufacturer's specification was "85 lbs/ft minimum, user selects
>> maximum".
>>
>>
>>>The tire installer is not to blame.
>>
>>
>> You say that random torquing wasn't a contributing factor, so that makes
>> the tire installer's methods sound? Hell, even the tire busters at
>> Costco use a torque wrench. If it didn't matter, would Costco bother?
>>
>>
>>>The rotors being too thin to start with, along with driving habits, stop
>>>and go or city driving, and overdriving the brakes (driving too fast,
>>>stopping at the last moment) are the most often the cause of brake
>>>pulsations, like it or not.
>>
>>
>> Not in this case. The Jeep is babied. Driving habits are excellent. A
>> Ford Thunderbird we owned previously (which was notoriously known for
>> rotor warpage) didn't exhibit any brake problems in 40,000 miles, likely
>> because of proper driving habits.
>>
>>
>>>The variations in lug nut torque are not out of line in the real world,
>>>rust, contamination, imperfect threads, grease, and dirt all affect the
>>>torque of the lug nuts. In perfect, laboratory conditions, with perfectly
>>>clean studs and nuts, lightly oiled, and a perfectly calibrated torque
>>>wrench, you might get 'em close, but that's not the real world.
>>
>>
>> I guess I'm pickier than most, because I refuse to use an impact wrench
>> on the lug nuts of any of my vehicles. Interestingly, the Jeep is the
>> only vehicle I've owned that needed rotor replacement before it needed a
>> brake job.
>>
>>
>>>By the way, with aluminum or magnesium wheels, lug nuts should be
>>>retorqued after driving 50 to 100 miles. ALWAYS.
>>
>>
>> You're right about that one. I learned that back in the 70s, when I
>> worked for Chrysler. I still have the same Snap-On Torqometer that I
>> used back then to torque lug nuts, including vehicles with left-handed
>> threads on the left side.
>>
>>
>>>Spdloader
>>>
>>>
>>>"klutz" <klutz@klutzville.net> wrote in message
>>>news:Azdwf.8592$V.4423@fed1read04...
>>>
>>>>My wife's 2003 Grand Cherokee fell victim to warped rotors, but after
>>>>completing the repairs, I'm surmising that her driving style didn't
>>>>cause the problem. While removing the lug nuts with a breaker bar, I
>>>>felt a disparity in the effort required to loosen them. Hmmm. That
>>>>can't be good. I wondered what the torque was on the other wheel, so I
>>>>used a torque wrench to loosen the lugs. Torque varied from 80 to 125
>>>>lb/ft on the R/F wheel! Just for safety's sake, I checked the rear
>>>>wheels. Same sad shape. Torque was all over the map. Moral of the
>>>>story - when the dealer is doing warranty work (power window) and asks
>>>>if you want your tires rotated - tell 'em "No, thanks" - unless you can
>>>>oversee the job. Incidentally, the old rotors and pads had 29,000 miles
>>>>and wore evenly, with no glazing or hot spots. The pads have 5/16 of
>>>>friction material left. My money says that the dealer's tire-jockey has
>>>>caused me (and likely many others) to suffer from warped rotors.
>>>>Intentionally, perhaps? Hard to prove. Word to the wise - the 2003 WJ
>>>>has rotors made of soft cast iron. Inattention to wheel torque can
>>>>destroy them in a heartbeat.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Jerry Bransford
> PP-ASEL N6TAY
> See the Geezer Jeep at
> http://members.***.net/jerrypb/

DougW

Spdloader did pass the time by typing:
> Wrong or right, my information came from a school Chrysler gave on their
> braking systems I attended in 1996.
>
> Cost is most often the driving factor, I think. Spend the least they can get
> away with.

<major snippage>

I run stillen rotors on the ZJ after the OEM pieces of ---- gave way and warped.

As a rule I never let anyone torque the lugnuts but me. I even take my own
torque wrench to the tire dealer and tell them to spin the nuts on by hand
and I'll finish them off. No if's and's or but's.

The other thing to remember is the types of lugnuts. Cone, flat, and shoulder.
Crank the wrong ones too tight and you can crack the rim.

As the wrencher who taught me said, "Air guns are for taking stuff off if your
too weak to do it by hand." :) -------, yes, but he could have taught a monkey
to yodel.

--
DougW

DougW

Spdloader did pass the time by typing:
> Wrong or right, my information came from a school Chrysler gave on their
> braking systems I attended in 1996.
>
> Cost is most often the driving factor, I think. Spend the least they can get
> away with.

<major snippage>

I run stillen rotors on the ZJ after the OEM pieces of ---- gave way and warped.

As a rule I never let anyone torque the lugnuts but me. I even take my own
torque wrench to the tire dealer and tell them to spin the nuts on by hand
and I'll finish them off. No if's and's or but's.

The other thing to remember is the types of lugnuts. Cone, flat, and shoulder.
Crank the wrong ones too tight and you can crack the rim.

As the wrencher who taught me said, "Air guns are for taking stuff off if your
too weak to do it by hand." :) -------, yes, but he could have taught a monkey
to yodel.

--
DougW

DougW

Spdloader did pass the time by typing:
> Wrong or right, my information came from a school Chrysler gave on their
> braking systems I attended in 1996.
>
> Cost is most often the driving factor, I think. Spend the least they can get
> away with.

<major snippage>

I run stillen rotors on the ZJ after the OEM pieces of ---- gave way and warped.

As a rule I never let anyone torque the lugnuts but me. I even take my own
torque wrench to the tire dealer and tell them to spin the nuts on by hand
and I'll finish them off. No if's and's or but's.

The other thing to remember is the types of lugnuts. Cone, flat, and shoulder.
Crank the wrong ones too tight and you can crack the rim.

As the wrencher who taught me said, "Air guns are for taking stuff off if your
too weak to do it by hand." :) -------, yes, but he could have taught a monkey
to yodel.

--
DougW

Earle Horton

People forget that an impact wrench is more like a hammer, than it is like a
torque wrench. If you hold it on for a shorter or longer time, you get
looser or tighter fasteners, no matter what the dial setting. It is a
little like hammering nails into a board. They keep going in, little by
little, even if you just tap on them. Impact wrenches can deform fasteners
too, so it is better to always use a manual wrench (if the fasteners are not
too tight!).

Earle

"DougW" <post.replies@invalid.address> wrote in message
news:Zzkwf.41621$---.11135@dukeread07...
> Spdloader did pass the time by typing:
> > Wrong or right, my information came from a school Chrysler gave on their
> > braking systems I attended in 1996.
> >
> > Cost is most often the driving factor, I think. Spend the least they can
get
> > away with.
>
> <major snippage>
>
> I run stillen rotors on the ZJ after the OEM pieces of ---- gave way and
warped.
>
> As a rule I never let anyone torque the lugnuts but me. I even take my
own
> torque wrench to the tire dealer and tell them to spin the nuts on by hand
> and I'll finish them off. No if's and's or but's.
>
> The other thing to remember is the types of lugnuts. Cone, flat, and
shoulder.
> Crank the wrong ones too tight and you can crack the rim.
>
> As the wrencher who taught me said, "Air guns are for taking stuff off if
your
> too weak to do it by hand." :) -------, yes, but he could have taught a
monkey
> to yodel.
>
> --
> DougW
>
>

Earle Horton

People forget that an impact wrench is more like a hammer, than it is like a
torque wrench. If you hold it on for a shorter or longer time, you get
looser or tighter fasteners, no matter what the dial setting. It is a
little like hammering nails into a board. They keep going in, little by
little, even if you just tap on them. Impact wrenches can deform fasteners
too, so it is better to always use a manual wrench (if the fasteners are not
too tight!).

Earle

"DougW" <post.replies@invalid.address> wrote in message
news:Zzkwf.41621$---.11135@dukeread07...
> Spdloader did pass the time by typing:
> > Wrong or right, my information came from a school Chrysler gave on their
> > braking systems I attended in 1996.
> >
> > Cost is most often the driving factor, I think. Spend the least they can
get
> > away with.
>
> <major snippage>
>
> I run stillen rotors on the ZJ after the OEM pieces of ---- gave way and
warped.
>
> As a rule I never let anyone torque the lugnuts but me. I even take my
own
> torque wrench to the tire dealer and tell them to spin the nuts on by hand
> and I'll finish them off. No if's and's or but's.
>
> The other thing to remember is the types of lugnuts. Cone, flat, and
shoulder.
> Crank the wrong ones too tight and you can crack the rim.
>
> As the wrencher who taught me said, "Air guns are for taking stuff off if
your
> too weak to do it by hand." :) -------, yes, but he could have taught a
monkey
> to yodel.
>
> --
> DougW
>
>

Earle Horton

People forget that an impact wrench is more like a hammer, than it is like a
torque wrench. If you hold it on for a shorter or longer time, you get
looser or tighter fasteners, no matter what the dial setting. It is a
little like hammering nails into a board. They keep going in, little by
little, even if you just tap on them. Impact wrenches can deform fasteners
too, so it is better to always use a manual wrench (if the fasteners are not
too tight!).

Earle

"DougW" <post.replies@invalid.address> wrote in message
news:Zzkwf.41621$---.11135@dukeread07...
> Spdloader did pass the time by typing:
> > Wrong or right, my information came from a school Chrysler gave on their
> > braking systems I attended in 1996.
> >
> > Cost is most often the driving factor, I think. Spend the least they can
get
> > away with.
>
> <major snippage>
>
> I run stillen rotors on the ZJ after the OEM pieces of ---- gave way and
warped.
>
> As a rule I never let anyone torque the lugnuts but me. I even take my
own
> torque wrench to the tire dealer and tell them to spin the nuts on by hand
> and I'll finish them off. No if's and's or but's.
>
> The other thing to remember is the types of lugnuts. Cone, flat, and
shoulder.
> Crank the wrong ones too tight and you can crack the rim.
>
> As the wrencher who taught me said, "Air guns are for taking stuff off if
your
> too weak to do it by hand." :) -------, yes, but he could have taught a
monkey
> to yodel.
>
> --
> DougW
>
>

Old Crow

On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 17:33:23 -0500, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

>That range means 'all' of them should be at 85 ft lb 'or' at 115 ft lb.
>They must be the same, not one at 85 and the next at 115, then the next
>at 85, etc...
>
>having some at 80 and some at 125 means it was not even slightly
>torqued. Even a crappy torque stick (that will warp rotors for sure)
>should be better than that.
>

I'm gonna say here that the torque required to break the lug nuts
loose probably won't have any relation to the torque that was used to
tighten them.
You are having to overcome the friction between the nut and the wheel,
to break them loose.
--
Old Crow
'82 FLTC-P "Miss Pearl"
'74 XLH chopper(somebody else's baby now)
BS#133, SENS, TOMKAT, MAMBM, DOF#51, DH#2
"There's only 1 RE"

Old Crow

On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 17:33:23 -0500, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

>That range means 'all' of them should be at 85 ft lb 'or' at 115 ft lb.
>They must be the same, not one at 85 and the next at 115, then the next
>at 85, etc...
>
>having some at 80 and some at 125 means it was not even slightly
>torqued. Even a crappy torque stick (that will warp rotors for sure)
>should be better than that.
>

I'm gonna say here that the torque required to break the lug nuts
loose probably won't have any relation to the torque that was used to
tighten them.
You are having to overcome the friction between the nut and the wheel,
to break them loose.
--
Old Crow
'82 FLTC-P "Miss Pearl"
'74 XLH chopper(somebody else's baby now)
BS#133, SENS, TOMKAT, MAMBM, DOF#51, DH#2
"There's only 1 RE"