installing power brakes on a cj?
12-06-2003, 06:02 PM
#41
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: installing power brakes on a cj?
I agree totally.
I have seen 3 bad out of the box masters recently. The company selling
them then changed brands. The different brand seems to be better.
Still a rebuilt in a box with a warranty is sure as ---- better than a
used of unknown wear one that needs to be 'jury rigged' to 'work'.
The pads I have in now are the long life ones and the grabbing power
difference is noticeable big time because I am turning 33's. My friend
with manual brakes and cheap shoes can stop way faster than me!
On my next change I am going back to the cheap ones for sure. I can
return the long warranty ones and the store will give me a credit and
the new cheap pads free. Nice outfit. I just did that with some
expensive Heavy Duty 'lifetime' u-joints, got 2 cheap ones with grease
fittings and a credit towards my next purchase.
Mike
Paul Calman wrote:
>
> > I would just get a proper CJ one if it was mine. Like I mentioned a new
> > CJ7 master is only $38.00....
>
> Brakes are a device on which I never try to save money. I buy the best parts
> I can. When I hone out a bore, it gets larger, and to remove the corrosion
> pitting requires a lot of metal removal. I buy new hydraulics rather than
> rebuilt which are honed out to 'who knows what' size. In the case of rare
> antiques, i have them bored and sleeved in brass or SS to the original
> diameter.
> I have found that brakes shoes and pads of the cheap variety generally give
> more braking force than 'lifetime guaranteed" shoes and pads which are too
> hard.
> Mercedes and Volvo did it right, they used pads that will wear out, and soft
> nodular iron rotors, and you get powerful brakes with disposable parts. I
> can still buy Merc. 300 series rotors for $10 each, new and sell them for
> $20. I never turn rotors on either make. Volvo brakes always make noise
> unless you use factory pads, and Merc usually too.
>
> --
> Paul Calman, Hathaway Pines, California
I have seen 3 bad out of the box masters recently. The company selling
them then changed brands. The different brand seems to be better.
Still a rebuilt in a box with a warranty is sure as ---- better than a
used of unknown wear one that needs to be 'jury rigged' to 'work'.
The pads I have in now are the long life ones and the grabbing power
difference is noticeable big time because I am turning 33's. My friend
with manual brakes and cheap shoes can stop way faster than me!
On my next change I am going back to the cheap ones for sure. I can
return the long warranty ones and the store will give me a credit and
the new cheap pads free. Nice outfit. I just did that with some
expensive Heavy Duty 'lifetime' u-joints, got 2 cheap ones with grease
fittings and a credit towards my next purchase.
Mike
Paul Calman wrote:
>
> > I would just get a proper CJ one if it was mine. Like I mentioned a new
> > CJ7 master is only $38.00....
>
> Brakes are a device on which I never try to save money. I buy the best parts
> I can. When I hone out a bore, it gets larger, and to remove the corrosion
> pitting requires a lot of metal removal. I buy new hydraulics rather than
> rebuilt which are honed out to 'who knows what' size. In the case of rare
> antiques, i have them bored and sleeved in brass or SS to the original
> diameter.
> I have found that brakes shoes and pads of the cheap variety generally give
> more braking force than 'lifetime guaranteed" shoes and pads which are too
> hard.
> Mercedes and Volvo did it right, they used pads that will wear out, and soft
> nodular iron rotors, and you get powerful brakes with disposable parts. I
> can still buy Merc. 300 series rotors for $10 each, new and sell them for
> $20. I never turn rotors on either make. Volvo brakes always make noise
> unless you use factory pads, and Merc usually too.
>
> --
> Paul Calman, Hathaway Pines, California
12-06-2003, 06:02 PM
#42
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: installing power brakes on a cj?
I agree totally.
I have seen 3 bad out of the box masters recently. The company selling
them then changed brands. The different brand seems to be better.
Still a rebuilt in a box with a warranty is sure as ---- better than a
used of unknown wear one that needs to be 'jury rigged' to 'work'.
The pads I have in now are the long life ones and the grabbing power
difference is noticeable big time because I am turning 33's. My friend
with manual brakes and cheap shoes can stop way faster than me!
On my next change I am going back to the cheap ones for sure. I can
return the long warranty ones and the store will give me a credit and
the new cheap pads free. Nice outfit. I just did that with some
expensive Heavy Duty 'lifetime' u-joints, got 2 cheap ones with grease
fittings and a credit towards my next purchase.
Mike
Paul Calman wrote:
>
> > I would just get a proper CJ one if it was mine. Like I mentioned a new
> > CJ7 master is only $38.00....
>
> Brakes are a device on which I never try to save money. I buy the best parts
> I can. When I hone out a bore, it gets larger, and to remove the corrosion
> pitting requires a lot of metal removal. I buy new hydraulics rather than
> rebuilt which are honed out to 'who knows what' size. In the case of rare
> antiques, i have them bored and sleeved in brass or SS to the original
> diameter.
> I have found that brakes shoes and pads of the cheap variety generally give
> more braking force than 'lifetime guaranteed" shoes and pads which are too
> hard.
> Mercedes and Volvo did it right, they used pads that will wear out, and soft
> nodular iron rotors, and you get powerful brakes with disposable parts. I
> can still buy Merc. 300 series rotors for $10 each, new and sell them for
> $20. I never turn rotors on either make. Volvo brakes always make noise
> unless you use factory pads, and Merc usually too.
>
> --
> Paul Calman, Hathaway Pines, California
I have seen 3 bad out of the box masters recently. The company selling
them then changed brands. The different brand seems to be better.
Still a rebuilt in a box with a warranty is sure as ---- better than a
used of unknown wear one that needs to be 'jury rigged' to 'work'.
The pads I have in now are the long life ones and the grabbing power
difference is noticeable big time because I am turning 33's. My friend
with manual brakes and cheap shoes can stop way faster than me!
On my next change I am going back to the cheap ones for sure. I can
return the long warranty ones and the store will give me a credit and
the new cheap pads free. Nice outfit. I just did that with some
expensive Heavy Duty 'lifetime' u-joints, got 2 cheap ones with grease
fittings and a credit towards my next purchase.
Mike
Paul Calman wrote:
>
> > I would just get a proper CJ one if it was mine. Like I mentioned a new
> > CJ7 master is only $38.00....
>
> Brakes are a device on which I never try to save money. I buy the best parts
> I can. When I hone out a bore, it gets larger, and to remove the corrosion
> pitting requires a lot of metal removal. I buy new hydraulics rather than
> rebuilt which are honed out to 'who knows what' size. In the case of rare
> antiques, i have them bored and sleeved in brass or SS to the original
> diameter.
> I have found that brakes shoes and pads of the cheap variety generally give
> more braking force than 'lifetime guaranteed" shoes and pads which are too
> hard.
> Mercedes and Volvo did it right, they used pads that will wear out, and soft
> nodular iron rotors, and you get powerful brakes with disposable parts. I
> can still buy Merc. 300 series rotors for $10 each, new and sell them for
> $20. I never turn rotors on either make. Volvo brakes always make noise
> unless you use factory pads, and Merc usually too.
>
> --
> Paul Calman, Hathaway Pines, California
12-06-2003, 06:02 PM
#43
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: installing power brakes on a cj?
I agree totally.
I have seen 3 bad out of the box masters recently. The company selling
them then changed brands. The different brand seems to be better.
Still a rebuilt in a box with a warranty is sure as ---- better than a
used of unknown wear one that needs to be 'jury rigged' to 'work'.
The pads I have in now are the long life ones and the grabbing power
difference is noticeable big time because I am turning 33's. My friend
with manual brakes and cheap shoes can stop way faster than me!
On my next change I am going back to the cheap ones for sure. I can
return the long warranty ones and the store will give me a credit and
the new cheap pads free. Nice outfit. I just did that with some
expensive Heavy Duty 'lifetime' u-joints, got 2 cheap ones with grease
fittings and a credit towards my next purchase.
Mike
Paul Calman wrote:
>
> > I would just get a proper CJ one if it was mine. Like I mentioned a new
> > CJ7 master is only $38.00....
>
> Brakes are a device on which I never try to save money. I buy the best parts
> I can. When I hone out a bore, it gets larger, and to remove the corrosion
> pitting requires a lot of metal removal. I buy new hydraulics rather than
> rebuilt which are honed out to 'who knows what' size. In the case of rare
> antiques, i have them bored and sleeved in brass or SS to the original
> diameter.
> I have found that brakes shoes and pads of the cheap variety generally give
> more braking force than 'lifetime guaranteed" shoes and pads which are too
> hard.
> Mercedes and Volvo did it right, they used pads that will wear out, and soft
> nodular iron rotors, and you get powerful brakes with disposable parts. I
> can still buy Merc. 300 series rotors for $10 each, new and sell them for
> $20. I never turn rotors on either make. Volvo brakes always make noise
> unless you use factory pads, and Merc usually too.
>
> --
> Paul Calman, Hathaway Pines, California
I have seen 3 bad out of the box masters recently. The company selling
them then changed brands. The different brand seems to be better.
Still a rebuilt in a box with a warranty is sure as ---- better than a
used of unknown wear one that needs to be 'jury rigged' to 'work'.
The pads I have in now are the long life ones and the grabbing power
difference is noticeable big time because I am turning 33's. My friend
with manual brakes and cheap shoes can stop way faster than me!
On my next change I am going back to the cheap ones for sure. I can
return the long warranty ones and the store will give me a credit and
the new cheap pads free. Nice outfit. I just did that with some
expensive Heavy Duty 'lifetime' u-joints, got 2 cheap ones with grease
fittings and a credit towards my next purchase.
Mike
Paul Calman wrote:
>
> > I would just get a proper CJ one if it was mine. Like I mentioned a new
> > CJ7 master is only $38.00....
>
> Brakes are a device on which I never try to save money. I buy the best parts
> I can. When I hone out a bore, it gets larger, and to remove the corrosion
> pitting requires a lot of metal removal. I buy new hydraulics rather than
> rebuilt which are honed out to 'who knows what' size. In the case of rare
> antiques, i have them bored and sleeved in brass or SS to the original
> diameter.
> I have found that brakes shoes and pads of the cheap variety generally give
> more braking force than 'lifetime guaranteed" shoes and pads which are too
> hard.
> Mercedes and Volvo did it right, they used pads that will wear out, and soft
> nodular iron rotors, and you get powerful brakes with disposable parts. I
> can still buy Merc. 300 series rotors for $10 each, new and sell them for
> $20. I never turn rotors on either make. Volvo brakes always make noise
> unless you use factory pads, and Merc usually too.
>
> --
> Paul Calman, Hathaway Pines, California
12-06-2003, 06:18 PM
#44
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: installing power brakes on a cj?
It might work just fine, I don't know 100% for sure either way.
I just know that the master is designed to put out a certain volume of
fluid at a certain pressure to match the volume in the sump behind the
caliper and rear cylinders.
If it is too low, then the brakes might not grab as hard which can mean
a longer stopping distance. The pistons in the caliper can be different
sizes which makes the volume of fluid needed from the master a lot
different to get the same end pressure.
When I see all the sellers saying the same thing almost exactly that
they 'can' be made to work on a CJ7, that sets off alarm bells in my
head.
Sorry, but I tend to try and be honest with my opinions and err on the
cautious side and have them right more times than not. I can easily be
wrong too.
If the booster is the same, then just putting a proper master and
combination valve for a CJ on it should be really easy. I have no
issues with something like that. It is the different masters and combo
valves I have issue with.
Oh, just below your carb on the drivers side should be a large brass
plug. This comes out and the brake booster line threads in there.
Mike
Jet wrote:
>
> here is the email I got back from one of the many sellers on ebay that i
> emailed that are selling wrangler boosters on ebay
>
> hi carmine,
> not sure who you are talking to, but they have no idea what they are telling
> you.
> I have since 1987 sold well over 800 boosters not to mention installing well
> over 200 unto customers cj model jeeps.
> it will fit, and will work well.
>
> carmine
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3FD251C3.645C265A@sympatico.ca...
> > I take that back after reading the seller's comments.
> >
> > They all say the same thing and in my opinion the guy is a fool.
> >
> > He is talking about 'making' them fit a CJ7.
> >
> > You can jury rig any booster and master setup to sort of work, that
> > doesn't mean it is going to work right.
> >
> > The master and boosters are matched up to the pistons in the calipers
> > and wheel cylinders.
> >
> > CJ and YJ ones are different as far as I have seen, a lot different....
> >
> > I would just get a proper CJ one if it was mine. Like I mentioned a new
> > CJ7 master is only $38.00....
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Mike Romain wrote:
> > >
> > > The booster might still be ok, it's the master that isn't.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > Jet wrote:
> > > >
> > > > lee I went to another group to get some other opinions and maybe find
> > > > someone who has done this first hand. after I get a bunch of opinions
> I will
> > > > make a decision whether i want to put it on my jeep or not. but that
> does
> > > > not mean i am going to use bailing wire and a bunch of rediculous
> parts to
> > > > put it on. almost all the wrangler boosters on ebay say that they will
> work
> > > > on cj's. i may just put it back on ebay but i want to get as many
> opinions
> > > > as possible.
> > > >
> > > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2443418438
> > > >
> > > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2444175893
> > > >
> > > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2445197077
> > > >
> > > > thanks carmine
> > > >
> > > > "Lee Ayrton" <layrton@ntplx.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:Pine.GSO.4.43.0312061245290.14253-100000@sea.ntplx.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > See Mike Romain's post on this. You'd do well to take his advice
> over
> > > > > someone who just wanted your money.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On or about Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Jet of jet@bestweb.net wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > no Lee I have not made funeral arraignments. but I do live on the
> top of
> > > > a
> > > > > > hill from a school and when I work on my jeep I like to drink
> allot of
> > > > beer
> > > > > > and oh yea my emergency brake cables are rusted and don't work,
> you know
> > > > > > those old jeeps. and my jeep has a supercharger 454 in it so I
> always
> > > > have
> > > > > > the throttle wide open so I don't use brakes that much. but I hope
> > > > > > everything will be o.k.
> > > > > > but seriously I called the guy who sold me the booster and he
> said it
> > > > is
> > > > > > off of a 94 wrangler with a 4 liter 6 cyl. I would think that if I
> keep
> > > > the
> > > > > > same master cylinder and proportioning valve that the front to
> back
> > > > > > difference in pressure would stay the same and I would be
> increasing the
> > > > > > pressure with the booster. just because they changed the part
> don't mean
> > > > it
> > > > > > wont work maybe they were just looking for a different pedal
> pressure.
> > > > has
> > > > > > anyone done a CJ to wrangler brake conversion? thanks carmine
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Lee Ayrton" <layrton@ntplx.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:Pine.GSO.4.43.0312051155370.13615-100000@sea.ntplx.net...
> > > > > > > On or about Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Jet of jet@bestweb.net wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I bought a vacuum booster and a master cylinder of a wrangler
> on
> > > > ebay
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > will be installing it on my 86 cj7 this weekend.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Have you made reservations for your funeral on Tuesday?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > my jeep has front disks and back drum brakes with a
> proportioning
> > > > valve
> > > > > > > > mounted to the frame. I noticed that the wrangler master
> cylinder
> > > > has
> > > > > > > > the brake lines coming out of the opposite side is this a
> problem?
> > > > can I
> > > > > > > > unbolt the wrangler master cylinder and bolt my CJ master
> cylinder
> > > > on
> > > > > > > > and not have to bleed the brakes? or do I have to use the
> master
> > > > > > > > cylinder and booster as a set? where should I hook up the
> vacuum
> > > > line
> > > > > > > > to? anything else anyone can think of that I should do or
> should'nt
> > > > do?
> > > > > > > > thanks carmine
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think you might be in for some trouble making it fit, and the
> brake
> > > > > > > lines are sending you an important message.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Looking quickly in a mail order catalogue, I notice that the
> parts
> > > > numbers
> > > > > > > for the 78-86 power master cylinder are not the same as the
> master for
> > > > > > > the 87-89 YJ, the 90-94 (without ABS) or the 95 YJ (with or w/o
> ABS).
> > > > > > > All different, as are the proportioning valves for 82-86 and
> 87-93.
> > > > Even
> > > > > > > if you can physically make it fit (remember the sheet metal
> redesign
> > > > at
> > > > > > > the end of the CJ run -- did they change pedal assemblies too?),
> you
> > > > still
> > > > > > > should want to know if they are hydraulically equal. Looking
> again,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > front calipers fit 82 through 89, then change for 90 through 00,
> the
> > > > rear
> > > > > > > cylinders fit 76 through 89.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Call me a yellow-livered milktoast mamma's boy chicken corporate
> > > > > > > ***-sucker if you like, but I wouldn't mess around with brakes
> unless
> > > > I
> > > > > > > knew for sure I was doing the right thing. The "right thing" in
> this
> > > > case
> > > > > > > would be getting the right master and booster for my Jeep
> instead of
> > > > > > > trying to cobble something up from bits and pieces. You're not
> going
> > > > to
> > > > > > > feel too good about it if the first time you panic-stab the
> brakes you
> > > > > > > lock the front wheels, skid and kill someone other than
> yourself.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > "doing whatever it took to capture world marketing shares, even as
> far
> > > > > as having multiple satellites circling the globe to ensure complete
> > > > > coverage and maximum profit potential."
> > > > >
> > > > > Tealady spills the beans on AFU's new business plan.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
I just know that the master is designed to put out a certain volume of
fluid at a certain pressure to match the volume in the sump behind the
caliper and rear cylinders.
If it is too low, then the brakes might not grab as hard which can mean
a longer stopping distance. The pistons in the caliper can be different
sizes which makes the volume of fluid needed from the master a lot
different to get the same end pressure.
When I see all the sellers saying the same thing almost exactly that
they 'can' be made to work on a CJ7, that sets off alarm bells in my
head.
Sorry, but I tend to try and be honest with my opinions and err on the
cautious side and have them right more times than not. I can easily be
wrong too.
If the booster is the same, then just putting a proper master and
combination valve for a CJ on it should be really easy. I have no
issues with something like that. It is the different masters and combo
valves I have issue with.
Oh, just below your carb on the drivers side should be a large brass
plug. This comes out and the brake booster line threads in there.
Mike
Jet wrote:
>
> here is the email I got back from one of the many sellers on ebay that i
> emailed that are selling wrangler boosters on ebay
>
> hi carmine,
> not sure who you are talking to, but they have no idea what they are telling
> you.
> I have since 1987 sold well over 800 boosters not to mention installing well
> over 200 unto customers cj model jeeps.
> it will fit, and will work well.
>
> carmine
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3FD251C3.645C265A@sympatico.ca...
> > I take that back after reading the seller's comments.
> >
> > They all say the same thing and in my opinion the guy is a fool.
> >
> > He is talking about 'making' them fit a CJ7.
> >
> > You can jury rig any booster and master setup to sort of work, that
> > doesn't mean it is going to work right.
> >
> > The master and boosters are matched up to the pistons in the calipers
> > and wheel cylinders.
> >
> > CJ and YJ ones are different as far as I have seen, a lot different....
> >
> > I would just get a proper CJ one if it was mine. Like I mentioned a new
> > CJ7 master is only $38.00....
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Mike Romain wrote:
> > >
> > > The booster might still be ok, it's the master that isn't.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > Jet wrote:
> > > >
> > > > lee I went to another group to get some other opinions and maybe find
> > > > someone who has done this first hand. after I get a bunch of opinions
> I will
> > > > make a decision whether i want to put it on my jeep or not. but that
> does
> > > > not mean i am going to use bailing wire and a bunch of rediculous
> parts to
> > > > put it on. almost all the wrangler boosters on ebay say that they will
> work
> > > > on cj's. i may just put it back on ebay but i want to get as many
> opinions
> > > > as possible.
> > > >
> > > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2443418438
> > > >
> > > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2444175893
> > > >
> > > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2445197077
> > > >
> > > > thanks carmine
> > > >
> > > > "Lee Ayrton" <layrton@ntplx.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:Pine.GSO.4.43.0312061245290.14253-100000@sea.ntplx.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > See Mike Romain's post on this. You'd do well to take his advice
> over
> > > > > someone who just wanted your money.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On or about Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Jet of jet@bestweb.net wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > no Lee I have not made funeral arraignments. but I do live on the
> top of
> > > > a
> > > > > > hill from a school and when I work on my jeep I like to drink
> allot of
> > > > beer
> > > > > > and oh yea my emergency brake cables are rusted and don't work,
> you know
> > > > > > those old jeeps. and my jeep has a supercharger 454 in it so I
> always
> > > > have
> > > > > > the throttle wide open so I don't use brakes that much. but I hope
> > > > > > everything will be o.k.
> > > > > > but seriously I called the guy who sold me the booster and he
> said it
> > > > is
> > > > > > off of a 94 wrangler with a 4 liter 6 cyl. I would think that if I
> keep
> > > > the
> > > > > > same master cylinder and proportioning valve that the front to
> back
> > > > > > difference in pressure would stay the same and I would be
> increasing the
> > > > > > pressure with the booster. just because they changed the part
> don't mean
> > > > it
> > > > > > wont work maybe they were just looking for a different pedal
> pressure.
> > > > has
> > > > > > anyone done a CJ to wrangler brake conversion? thanks carmine
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Lee Ayrton" <layrton@ntplx.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:Pine.GSO.4.43.0312051155370.13615-100000@sea.ntplx.net...
> > > > > > > On or about Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Jet of jet@bestweb.net wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I bought a vacuum booster and a master cylinder of a wrangler
> on
> > > > ebay
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > will be installing it on my 86 cj7 this weekend.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Have you made reservations for your funeral on Tuesday?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > my jeep has front disks and back drum brakes with a
> proportioning
> > > > valve
> > > > > > > > mounted to the frame. I noticed that the wrangler master
> cylinder
> > > > has
> > > > > > > > the brake lines coming out of the opposite side is this a
> problem?
> > > > can I
> > > > > > > > unbolt the wrangler master cylinder and bolt my CJ master
> cylinder
> > > > on
> > > > > > > > and not have to bleed the brakes? or do I have to use the
> master
> > > > > > > > cylinder and booster as a set? where should I hook up the
> vacuum
> > > > line
> > > > > > > > to? anything else anyone can think of that I should do or
> should'nt
> > > > do?
> > > > > > > > thanks carmine
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think you might be in for some trouble making it fit, and the
> brake
> > > > > > > lines are sending you an important message.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Looking quickly in a mail order catalogue, I notice that the
> parts
> > > > numbers
> > > > > > > for the 78-86 power master cylinder are not the same as the
> master for
> > > > > > > the 87-89 YJ, the 90-94 (without ABS) or the 95 YJ (with or w/o
> ABS).
> > > > > > > All different, as are the proportioning valves for 82-86 and
> 87-93.
> > > > Even
> > > > > > > if you can physically make it fit (remember the sheet metal
> redesign
> > > > at
> > > > > > > the end of the CJ run -- did they change pedal assemblies too?),
> you
> > > > still
> > > > > > > should want to know if they are hydraulically equal. Looking
> again,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > front calipers fit 82 through 89, then change for 90 through 00,
> the
> > > > rear
> > > > > > > cylinders fit 76 through 89.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Call me a yellow-livered milktoast mamma's boy chicken corporate
> > > > > > > ***-sucker if you like, but I wouldn't mess around with brakes
> unless
> > > > I
> > > > > > > knew for sure I was doing the right thing. The "right thing" in
> this
> > > > case
> > > > > > > would be getting the right master and booster for my Jeep
> instead of
> > > > > > > trying to cobble something up from bits and pieces. You're not
> going
> > > > to
> > > > > > > feel too good about it if the first time you panic-stab the
> brakes you
> > > > > > > lock the front wheels, skid and kill someone other than
> yourself.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > "doing whatever it took to capture world marketing shares, even as
> far
> > > > > as having multiple satellites circling the globe to ensure complete
> > > > > coverage and maximum profit potential."
> > > > >
> > > > > Tealady spills the beans on AFU's new business plan.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
12-06-2003, 06:18 PM
#45
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: installing power brakes on a cj?
It might work just fine, I don't know 100% for sure either way.
I just know that the master is designed to put out a certain volume of
fluid at a certain pressure to match the volume in the sump behind the
caliper and rear cylinders.
If it is too low, then the brakes might not grab as hard which can mean
a longer stopping distance. The pistons in the caliper can be different
sizes which makes the volume of fluid needed from the master a lot
different to get the same end pressure.
When I see all the sellers saying the same thing almost exactly that
they 'can' be made to work on a CJ7, that sets off alarm bells in my
head.
Sorry, but I tend to try and be honest with my opinions and err on the
cautious side and have them right more times than not. I can easily be
wrong too.
If the booster is the same, then just putting a proper master and
combination valve for a CJ on it should be really easy. I have no
issues with something like that. It is the different masters and combo
valves I have issue with.
Oh, just below your carb on the drivers side should be a large brass
plug. This comes out and the brake booster line threads in there.
Mike
Jet wrote:
>
> here is the email I got back from one of the many sellers on ebay that i
> emailed that are selling wrangler boosters on ebay
>
> hi carmine,
> not sure who you are talking to, but they have no idea what they are telling
> you.
> I have since 1987 sold well over 800 boosters not to mention installing well
> over 200 unto customers cj model jeeps.
> it will fit, and will work well.
>
> carmine
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3FD251C3.645C265A@sympatico.ca...
> > I take that back after reading the seller's comments.
> >
> > They all say the same thing and in my opinion the guy is a fool.
> >
> > He is talking about 'making' them fit a CJ7.
> >
> > You can jury rig any booster and master setup to sort of work, that
> > doesn't mean it is going to work right.
> >
> > The master and boosters are matched up to the pistons in the calipers
> > and wheel cylinders.
> >
> > CJ and YJ ones are different as far as I have seen, a lot different....
> >
> > I would just get a proper CJ one if it was mine. Like I mentioned a new
> > CJ7 master is only $38.00....
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Mike Romain wrote:
> > >
> > > The booster might still be ok, it's the master that isn't.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > Jet wrote:
> > > >
> > > > lee I went to another group to get some other opinions and maybe find
> > > > someone who has done this first hand. after I get a bunch of opinions
> I will
> > > > make a decision whether i want to put it on my jeep or not. but that
> does
> > > > not mean i am going to use bailing wire and a bunch of rediculous
> parts to
> > > > put it on. almost all the wrangler boosters on ebay say that they will
> work
> > > > on cj's. i may just put it back on ebay but i want to get as many
> opinions
> > > > as possible.
> > > >
> > > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2443418438
> > > >
> > > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2444175893
> > > >
> > > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2445197077
> > > >
> > > > thanks carmine
> > > >
> > > > "Lee Ayrton" <layrton@ntplx.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:Pine.GSO.4.43.0312061245290.14253-100000@sea.ntplx.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > See Mike Romain's post on this. You'd do well to take his advice
> over
> > > > > someone who just wanted your money.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On or about Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Jet of jet@bestweb.net wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > no Lee I have not made funeral arraignments. but I do live on the
> top of
> > > > a
> > > > > > hill from a school and when I work on my jeep I like to drink
> allot of
> > > > beer
> > > > > > and oh yea my emergency brake cables are rusted and don't work,
> you know
> > > > > > those old jeeps. and my jeep has a supercharger 454 in it so I
> always
> > > > have
> > > > > > the throttle wide open so I don't use brakes that much. but I hope
> > > > > > everything will be o.k.
> > > > > > but seriously I called the guy who sold me the booster and he
> said it
> > > > is
> > > > > > off of a 94 wrangler with a 4 liter 6 cyl. I would think that if I
> keep
> > > > the
> > > > > > same master cylinder and proportioning valve that the front to
> back
> > > > > > difference in pressure would stay the same and I would be
> increasing the
> > > > > > pressure with the booster. just because they changed the part
> don't mean
> > > > it
> > > > > > wont work maybe they were just looking for a different pedal
> pressure.
> > > > has
> > > > > > anyone done a CJ to wrangler brake conversion? thanks carmine
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Lee Ayrton" <layrton@ntplx.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:Pine.GSO.4.43.0312051155370.13615-100000@sea.ntplx.net...
> > > > > > > On or about Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Jet of jet@bestweb.net wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I bought a vacuum booster and a master cylinder of a wrangler
> on
> > > > ebay
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > will be installing it on my 86 cj7 this weekend.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Have you made reservations for your funeral on Tuesday?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > my jeep has front disks and back drum brakes with a
> proportioning
> > > > valve
> > > > > > > > mounted to the frame. I noticed that the wrangler master
> cylinder
> > > > has
> > > > > > > > the brake lines coming out of the opposite side is this a
> problem?
> > > > can I
> > > > > > > > unbolt the wrangler master cylinder and bolt my CJ master
> cylinder
> > > > on
> > > > > > > > and not have to bleed the brakes? or do I have to use the
> master
> > > > > > > > cylinder and booster as a set? where should I hook up the
> vacuum
> > > > line
> > > > > > > > to? anything else anyone can think of that I should do or
> should'nt
> > > > do?
> > > > > > > > thanks carmine
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think you might be in for some trouble making it fit, and the
> brake
> > > > > > > lines are sending you an important message.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Looking quickly in a mail order catalogue, I notice that the
> parts
> > > > numbers
> > > > > > > for the 78-86 power master cylinder are not the same as the
> master for
> > > > > > > the 87-89 YJ, the 90-94 (without ABS) or the 95 YJ (with or w/o
> ABS).
> > > > > > > All different, as are the proportioning valves for 82-86 and
> 87-93.
> > > > Even
> > > > > > > if you can physically make it fit (remember the sheet metal
> redesign
> > > > at
> > > > > > > the end of the CJ run -- did they change pedal assemblies too?),
> you
> > > > still
> > > > > > > should want to know if they are hydraulically equal. Looking
> again,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > front calipers fit 82 through 89, then change for 90 through 00,
> the
> > > > rear
> > > > > > > cylinders fit 76 through 89.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Call me a yellow-livered milktoast mamma's boy chicken corporate
> > > > > > > ***-sucker if you like, but I wouldn't mess around with brakes
> unless
> > > > I
> > > > > > > knew for sure I was doing the right thing. The "right thing" in
> this
> > > > case
> > > > > > > would be getting the right master and booster for my Jeep
> instead of
> > > > > > > trying to cobble something up from bits and pieces. You're not
> going
> > > > to
> > > > > > > feel too good about it if the first time you panic-stab the
> brakes you
> > > > > > > lock the front wheels, skid and kill someone other than
> yourself.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > "doing whatever it took to capture world marketing shares, even as
> far
> > > > > as having multiple satellites circling the globe to ensure complete
> > > > > coverage and maximum profit potential."
> > > > >
> > > > > Tealady spills the beans on AFU's new business plan.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
I just know that the master is designed to put out a certain volume of
fluid at a certain pressure to match the volume in the sump behind the
caliper and rear cylinders.
If it is too low, then the brakes might not grab as hard which can mean
a longer stopping distance. The pistons in the caliper can be different
sizes which makes the volume of fluid needed from the master a lot
different to get the same end pressure.
When I see all the sellers saying the same thing almost exactly that
they 'can' be made to work on a CJ7, that sets off alarm bells in my
head.
Sorry, but I tend to try and be honest with my opinions and err on the
cautious side and have them right more times than not. I can easily be
wrong too.
If the booster is the same, then just putting a proper master and
combination valve for a CJ on it should be really easy. I have no
issues with something like that. It is the different masters and combo
valves I have issue with.
Oh, just below your carb on the drivers side should be a large brass
plug. This comes out and the brake booster line threads in there.
Mike
Jet wrote:
>
> here is the email I got back from one of the many sellers on ebay that i
> emailed that are selling wrangler boosters on ebay
>
> hi carmine,
> not sure who you are talking to, but they have no idea what they are telling
> you.
> I have since 1987 sold well over 800 boosters not to mention installing well
> over 200 unto customers cj model jeeps.
> it will fit, and will work well.
>
> carmine
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3FD251C3.645C265A@sympatico.ca...
> > I take that back after reading the seller's comments.
> >
> > They all say the same thing and in my opinion the guy is a fool.
> >
> > He is talking about 'making' them fit a CJ7.
> >
> > You can jury rig any booster and master setup to sort of work, that
> > doesn't mean it is going to work right.
> >
> > The master and boosters are matched up to the pistons in the calipers
> > and wheel cylinders.
> >
> > CJ and YJ ones are different as far as I have seen, a lot different....
> >
> > I would just get a proper CJ one if it was mine. Like I mentioned a new
> > CJ7 master is only $38.00....
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Mike Romain wrote:
> > >
> > > The booster might still be ok, it's the master that isn't.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > Jet wrote:
> > > >
> > > > lee I went to another group to get some other opinions and maybe find
> > > > someone who has done this first hand. after I get a bunch of opinions
> I will
> > > > make a decision whether i want to put it on my jeep or not. but that
> does
> > > > not mean i am going to use bailing wire and a bunch of rediculous
> parts to
> > > > put it on. almost all the wrangler boosters on ebay say that they will
> work
> > > > on cj's. i may just put it back on ebay but i want to get as many
> opinions
> > > > as possible.
> > > >
> > > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2443418438
> > > >
> > > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2444175893
> > > >
> > > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2445197077
> > > >
> > > > thanks carmine
> > > >
> > > > "Lee Ayrton" <layrton@ntplx.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:Pine.GSO.4.43.0312061245290.14253-100000@sea.ntplx.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > See Mike Romain's post on this. You'd do well to take his advice
> over
> > > > > someone who just wanted your money.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On or about Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Jet of jet@bestweb.net wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > no Lee I have not made funeral arraignments. but I do live on the
> top of
> > > > a
> > > > > > hill from a school and when I work on my jeep I like to drink
> allot of
> > > > beer
> > > > > > and oh yea my emergency brake cables are rusted and don't work,
> you know
> > > > > > those old jeeps. and my jeep has a supercharger 454 in it so I
> always
> > > > have
> > > > > > the throttle wide open so I don't use brakes that much. but I hope
> > > > > > everything will be o.k.
> > > > > > but seriously I called the guy who sold me the booster and he
> said it
> > > > is
> > > > > > off of a 94 wrangler with a 4 liter 6 cyl. I would think that if I
> keep
> > > > the
> > > > > > same master cylinder and proportioning valve that the front to
> back
> > > > > > difference in pressure would stay the same and I would be
> increasing the
> > > > > > pressure with the booster. just because they changed the part
> don't mean
> > > > it
> > > > > > wont work maybe they were just looking for a different pedal
> pressure.
> > > > has
> > > > > > anyone done a CJ to wrangler brake conversion? thanks carmine
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Lee Ayrton" <layrton@ntplx.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:Pine.GSO.4.43.0312051155370.13615-100000@sea.ntplx.net...
> > > > > > > On or about Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Jet of jet@bestweb.net wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I bought a vacuum booster and a master cylinder of a wrangler
> on
> > > > ebay
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > will be installing it on my 86 cj7 this weekend.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Have you made reservations for your funeral on Tuesday?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > my jeep has front disks and back drum brakes with a
> proportioning
> > > > valve
> > > > > > > > mounted to the frame. I noticed that the wrangler master
> cylinder
> > > > has
> > > > > > > > the brake lines coming out of the opposite side is this a
> problem?
> > > > can I
> > > > > > > > unbolt the wrangler master cylinder and bolt my CJ master
> cylinder
> > > > on
> > > > > > > > and not have to bleed the brakes? or do I have to use the
> master
> > > > > > > > cylinder and booster as a set? where should I hook up the
> vacuum
> > > > line
> > > > > > > > to? anything else anyone can think of that I should do or
> should'nt
> > > > do?
> > > > > > > > thanks carmine
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think you might be in for some trouble making it fit, and the
> brake
> > > > > > > lines are sending you an important message.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Looking quickly in a mail order catalogue, I notice that the
> parts
> > > > numbers
> > > > > > > for the 78-86 power master cylinder are not the same as the
> master for
> > > > > > > the 87-89 YJ, the 90-94 (without ABS) or the 95 YJ (with or w/o
> ABS).
> > > > > > > All different, as are the proportioning valves for 82-86 and
> 87-93.
> > > > Even
> > > > > > > if you can physically make it fit (remember the sheet metal
> redesign
> > > > at
> > > > > > > the end of the CJ run -- did they change pedal assemblies too?),
> you
> > > > still
> > > > > > > should want to know if they are hydraulically equal. Looking
> again,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > front calipers fit 82 through 89, then change for 90 through 00,
> the
> > > > rear
> > > > > > > cylinders fit 76 through 89.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Call me a yellow-livered milktoast mamma's boy chicken corporate
> > > > > > > ***-sucker if you like, but I wouldn't mess around with brakes
> unless
> > > > I
> > > > > > > knew for sure I was doing the right thing. The "right thing" in
> this
> > > > case
> > > > > > > would be getting the right master and booster for my Jeep
> instead of
> > > > > > > trying to cobble something up from bits and pieces. You're not
> going
> > > > to
> > > > > > > feel too good about it if the first time you panic-stab the
> brakes you
> > > > > > > lock the front wheels, skid and kill someone other than
> yourself.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > "doing whatever it took to capture world marketing shares, even as
> far
> > > > > as having multiple satellites circling the globe to ensure complete
> > > > > coverage and maximum profit potential."
> > > > >
> > > > > Tealady spills the beans on AFU's new business plan.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
12-06-2003, 06:18 PM
#46
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: installing power brakes on a cj?
It might work just fine, I don't know 100% for sure either way.
I just know that the master is designed to put out a certain volume of
fluid at a certain pressure to match the volume in the sump behind the
caliper and rear cylinders.
If it is too low, then the brakes might not grab as hard which can mean
a longer stopping distance. The pistons in the caliper can be different
sizes which makes the volume of fluid needed from the master a lot
different to get the same end pressure.
When I see all the sellers saying the same thing almost exactly that
they 'can' be made to work on a CJ7, that sets off alarm bells in my
head.
Sorry, but I tend to try and be honest with my opinions and err on the
cautious side and have them right more times than not. I can easily be
wrong too.
If the booster is the same, then just putting a proper master and
combination valve for a CJ on it should be really easy. I have no
issues with something like that. It is the different masters and combo
valves I have issue with.
Oh, just below your carb on the drivers side should be a large brass
plug. This comes out and the brake booster line threads in there.
Mike
Jet wrote:
>
> here is the email I got back from one of the many sellers on ebay that i
> emailed that are selling wrangler boosters on ebay
>
> hi carmine,
> not sure who you are talking to, but they have no idea what they are telling
> you.
> I have since 1987 sold well over 800 boosters not to mention installing well
> over 200 unto customers cj model jeeps.
> it will fit, and will work well.
>
> carmine
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3FD251C3.645C265A@sympatico.ca...
> > I take that back after reading the seller's comments.
> >
> > They all say the same thing and in my opinion the guy is a fool.
> >
> > He is talking about 'making' them fit a CJ7.
> >
> > You can jury rig any booster and master setup to sort of work, that
> > doesn't mean it is going to work right.
> >
> > The master and boosters are matched up to the pistons in the calipers
> > and wheel cylinders.
> >
> > CJ and YJ ones are different as far as I have seen, a lot different....
> >
> > I would just get a proper CJ one if it was mine. Like I mentioned a new
> > CJ7 master is only $38.00....
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Mike Romain wrote:
> > >
> > > The booster might still be ok, it's the master that isn't.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > Jet wrote:
> > > >
> > > > lee I went to another group to get some other opinions and maybe find
> > > > someone who has done this first hand. after I get a bunch of opinions
> I will
> > > > make a decision whether i want to put it on my jeep or not. but that
> does
> > > > not mean i am going to use bailing wire and a bunch of rediculous
> parts to
> > > > put it on. almost all the wrangler boosters on ebay say that they will
> work
> > > > on cj's. i may just put it back on ebay but i want to get as many
> opinions
> > > > as possible.
> > > >
> > > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2443418438
> > > >
> > > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2444175893
> > > >
> > > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2445197077
> > > >
> > > > thanks carmine
> > > >
> > > > "Lee Ayrton" <layrton@ntplx.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:Pine.GSO.4.43.0312061245290.14253-100000@sea.ntplx.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > See Mike Romain's post on this. You'd do well to take his advice
> over
> > > > > someone who just wanted your money.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On or about Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Jet of jet@bestweb.net wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > no Lee I have not made funeral arraignments. but I do live on the
> top of
> > > > a
> > > > > > hill from a school and when I work on my jeep I like to drink
> allot of
> > > > beer
> > > > > > and oh yea my emergency brake cables are rusted and don't work,
> you know
> > > > > > those old jeeps. and my jeep has a supercharger 454 in it so I
> always
> > > > have
> > > > > > the throttle wide open so I don't use brakes that much. but I hope
> > > > > > everything will be o.k.
> > > > > > but seriously I called the guy who sold me the booster and he
> said it
> > > > is
> > > > > > off of a 94 wrangler with a 4 liter 6 cyl. I would think that if I
> keep
> > > > the
> > > > > > same master cylinder and proportioning valve that the front to
> back
> > > > > > difference in pressure would stay the same and I would be
> increasing the
> > > > > > pressure with the booster. just because they changed the part
> don't mean
> > > > it
> > > > > > wont work maybe they were just looking for a different pedal
> pressure.
> > > > has
> > > > > > anyone done a CJ to wrangler brake conversion? thanks carmine
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Lee Ayrton" <layrton@ntplx.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:Pine.GSO.4.43.0312051155370.13615-100000@sea.ntplx.net...
> > > > > > > On or about Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Jet of jet@bestweb.net wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I bought a vacuum booster and a master cylinder of a wrangler
> on
> > > > ebay
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > will be installing it on my 86 cj7 this weekend.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Have you made reservations for your funeral on Tuesday?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > my jeep has front disks and back drum brakes with a
> proportioning
> > > > valve
> > > > > > > > mounted to the frame. I noticed that the wrangler master
> cylinder
> > > > has
> > > > > > > > the brake lines coming out of the opposite side is this a
> problem?
> > > > can I
> > > > > > > > unbolt the wrangler master cylinder and bolt my CJ master
> cylinder
> > > > on
> > > > > > > > and not have to bleed the brakes? or do I have to use the
> master
> > > > > > > > cylinder and booster as a set? where should I hook up the
> vacuum
> > > > line
> > > > > > > > to? anything else anyone can think of that I should do or
> should'nt
> > > > do?
> > > > > > > > thanks carmine
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think you might be in for some trouble making it fit, and the
> brake
> > > > > > > lines are sending you an important message.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Looking quickly in a mail order catalogue, I notice that the
> parts
> > > > numbers
> > > > > > > for the 78-86 power master cylinder are not the same as the
> master for
> > > > > > > the 87-89 YJ, the 90-94 (without ABS) or the 95 YJ (with or w/o
> ABS).
> > > > > > > All different, as are the proportioning valves for 82-86 and
> 87-93.
> > > > Even
> > > > > > > if you can physically make it fit (remember the sheet metal
> redesign
> > > > at
> > > > > > > the end of the CJ run -- did they change pedal assemblies too?),
> you
> > > > still
> > > > > > > should want to know if they are hydraulically equal. Looking
> again,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > front calipers fit 82 through 89, then change for 90 through 00,
> the
> > > > rear
> > > > > > > cylinders fit 76 through 89.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Call me a yellow-livered milktoast mamma's boy chicken corporate
> > > > > > > ***-sucker if you like, but I wouldn't mess around with brakes
> unless
> > > > I
> > > > > > > knew for sure I was doing the right thing. The "right thing" in
> this
> > > > case
> > > > > > > would be getting the right master and booster for my Jeep
> instead of
> > > > > > > trying to cobble something up from bits and pieces. You're not
> going
> > > > to
> > > > > > > feel too good about it if the first time you panic-stab the
> brakes you
> > > > > > > lock the front wheels, skid and kill someone other than
> yourself.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > "doing whatever it took to capture world marketing shares, even as
> far
> > > > > as having multiple satellites circling the globe to ensure complete
> > > > > coverage and maximum profit potential."
> > > > >
> > > > > Tealady spills the beans on AFU's new business plan.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
I just know that the master is designed to put out a certain volume of
fluid at a certain pressure to match the volume in the sump behind the
caliper and rear cylinders.
If it is too low, then the brakes might not grab as hard which can mean
a longer stopping distance. The pistons in the caliper can be different
sizes which makes the volume of fluid needed from the master a lot
different to get the same end pressure.
When I see all the sellers saying the same thing almost exactly that
they 'can' be made to work on a CJ7, that sets off alarm bells in my
head.
Sorry, but I tend to try and be honest with my opinions and err on the
cautious side and have them right more times than not. I can easily be
wrong too.
If the booster is the same, then just putting a proper master and
combination valve for a CJ on it should be really easy. I have no
issues with something like that. It is the different masters and combo
valves I have issue with.
Oh, just below your carb on the drivers side should be a large brass
plug. This comes out and the brake booster line threads in there.
Mike
Jet wrote:
>
> here is the email I got back from one of the many sellers on ebay that i
> emailed that are selling wrangler boosters on ebay
>
> hi carmine,
> not sure who you are talking to, but they have no idea what they are telling
> you.
> I have since 1987 sold well over 800 boosters not to mention installing well
> over 200 unto customers cj model jeeps.
> it will fit, and will work well.
>
> carmine
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3FD251C3.645C265A@sympatico.ca...
> > I take that back after reading the seller's comments.
> >
> > They all say the same thing and in my opinion the guy is a fool.
> >
> > He is talking about 'making' them fit a CJ7.
> >
> > You can jury rig any booster and master setup to sort of work, that
> > doesn't mean it is going to work right.
> >
> > The master and boosters are matched up to the pistons in the calipers
> > and wheel cylinders.
> >
> > CJ and YJ ones are different as far as I have seen, a lot different....
> >
> > I would just get a proper CJ one if it was mine. Like I mentioned a new
> > CJ7 master is only $38.00....
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Mike Romain wrote:
> > >
> > > The booster might still be ok, it's the master that isn't.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > Jet wrote:
> > > >
> > > > lee I went to another group to get some other opinions and maybe find
> > > > someone who has done this first hand. after I get a bunch of opinions
> I will
> > > > make a decision whether i want to put it on my jeep or not. but that
> does
> > > > not mean i am going to use bailing wire and a bunch of rediculous
> parts to
> > > > put it on. almost all the wrangler boosters on ebay say that they will
> work
> > > > on cj's. i may just put it back on ebay but i want to get as many
> opinions
> > > > as possible.
> > > >
> > > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2443418438
> > > >
> > > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2444175893
> > > >
> > > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2445197077
> > > >
> > > > thanks carmine
> > > >
> > > > "Lee Ayrton" <layrton@ntplx.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:Pine.GSO.4.43.0312061245290.14253-100000@sea.ntplx.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > See Mike Romain's post on this. You'd do well to take his advice
> over
> > > > > someone who just wanted your money.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On or about Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Jet of jet@bestweb.net wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > no Lee I have not made funeral arraignments. but I do live on the
> top of
> > > > a
> > > > > > hill from a school and when I work on my jeep I like to drink
> allot of
> > > > beer
> > > > > > and oh yea my emergency brake cables are rusted and don't work,
> you know
> > > > > > those old jeeps. and my jeep has a supercharger 454 in it so I
> always
> > > > have
> > > > > > the throttle wide open so I don't use brakes that much. but I hope
> > > > > > everything will be o.k.
> > > > > > but seriously I called the guy who sold me the booster and he
> said it
> > > > is
> > > > > > off of a 94 wrangler with a 4 liter 6 cyl. I would think that if I
> keep
> > > > the
> > > > > > same master cylinder and proportioning valve that the front to
> back
> > > > > > difference in pressure would stay the same and I would be
> increasing the
> > > > > > pressure with the booster. just because they changed the part
> don't mean
> > > > it
> > > > > > wont work maybe they were just looking for a different pedal
> pressure.
> > > > has
> > > > > > anyone done a CJ to wrangler brake conversion? thanks carmine
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Lee Ayrton" <layrton@ntplx.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:Pine.GSO.4.43.0312051155370.13615-100000@sea.ntplx.net...
> > > > > > > On or about Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Jet of jet@bestweb.net wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I bought a vacuum booster and a master cylinder of a wrangler
> on
> > > > ebay
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > will be installing it on my 86 cj7 this weekend.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Have you made reservations for your funeral on Tuesday?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > my jeep has front disks and back drum brakes with a
> proportioning
> > > > valve
> > > > > > > > mounted to the frame. I noticed that the wrangler master
> cylinder
> > > > has
> > > > > > > > the brake lines coming out of the opposite side is this a
> problem?
> > > > can I
> > > > > > > > unbolt the wrangler master cylinder and bolt my CJ master
> cylinder
> > > > on
> > > > > > > > and not have to bleed the brakes? or do I have to use the
> master
> > > > > > > > cylinder and booster as a set? where should I hook up the
> vacuum
> > > > line
> > > > > > > > to? anything else anyone can think of that I should do or
> should'nt
> > > > do?
> > > > > > > > thanks carmine
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think you might be in for some trouble making it fit, and the
> brake
> > > > > > > lines are sending you an important message.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Looking quickly in a mail order catalogue, I notice that the
> parts
> > > > numbers
> > > > > > > for the 78-86 power master cylinder are not the same as the
> master for
> > > > > > > the 87-89 YJ, the 90-94 (without ABS) or the 95 YJ (with or w/o
> ABS).
> > > > > > > All different, as are the proportioning valves for 82-86 and
> 87-93.
> > > > Even
> > > > > > > if you can physically make it fit (remember the sheet metal
> redesign
> > > > at
> > > > > > > the end of the CJ run -- did they change pedal assemblies too?),
> you
> > > > still
> > > > > > > should want to know if they are hydraulically equal. Looking
> again,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > front calipers fit 82 through 89, then change for 90 through 00,
> the
> > > > rear
> > > > > > > cylinders fit 76 through 89.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Call me a yellow-livered milktoast mamma's boy chicken corporate
> > > > > > > ***-sucker if you like, but I wouldn't mess around with brakes
> unless
> > > > I
> > > > > > > knew for sure I was doing the right thing. The "right thing" in
> this
> > > > case
> > > > > > > would be getting the right master and booster for my Jeep
> instead of
> > > > > > > trying to cobble something up from bits and pieces. You're not
> going
> > > > to
> > > > > > > feel too good about it if the first time you panic-stab the
> brakes you
> > > > > > > lock the front wheels, skid and kill someone other than
> yourself.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > "doing whatever it took to capture world marketing shares, even as
> far
> > > > > as having multiple satellites circling the globe to ensure complete
> > > > > coverage and maximum profit potential."
> > > > >
> > > > > Tealady spills the beans on AFU's new business plan.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
12-06-2003, 06:29 PM
#47
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: installing power brakes on a cj?
Throw it in the trash before become another one of his death
statistics.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Jet wrote:
>
> here is the email I got back from one of the many sellers on ebay that i
> emailed that are selling wrangler boosters on ebay
>
> hi carmine,
> not sure who you are talking to, but they have no idea what they are telling
> you.
> I have since 1987 sold well over 800 boosters not to mention installing well
> over 200 unto customers cj model jeeps.
> it will fit, and will work well.
>
> carmine
statistics.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Jet wrote:
>
> here is the email I got back from one of the many sellers on ebay that i
> emailed that are selling wrangler boosters on ebay
>
> hi carmine,
> not sure who you are talking to, but they have no idea what they are telling
> you.
> I have since 1987 sold well over 800 boosters not to mention installing well
> over 200 unto customers cj model jeeps.
> it will fit, and will work well.
>
> carmine
12-06-2003, 06:29 PM
#48
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: installing power brakes on a cj?
Throw it in the trash before become another one of his death
statistics.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Jet wrote:
>
> here is the email I got back from one of the many sellers on ebay that i
> emailed that are selling wrangler boosters on ebay
>
> hi carmine,
> not sure who you are talking to, but they have no idea what they are telling
> you.
> I have since 1987 sold well over 800 boosters not to mention installing well
> over 200 unto customers cj model jeeps.
> it will fit, and will work well.
>
> carmine
statistics.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Jet wrote:
>
> here is the email I got back from one of the many sellers on ebay that i
> emailed that are selling wrangler boosters on ebay
>
> hi carmine,
> not sure who you are talking to, but they have no idea what they are telling
> you.
> I have since 1987 sold well over 800 boosters not to mention installing well
> over 200 unto customers cj model jeeps.
> it will fit, and will work well.
>
> carmine
12-06-2003, 06:29 PM
#49
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: installing power brakes on a cj?
Throw it in the trash before become another one of his death
statistics.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Jet wrote:
>
> here is the email I got back from one of the many sellers on ebay that i
> emailed that are selling wrangler boosters on ebay
>
> hi carmine,
> not sure who you are talking to, but they have no idea what they are telling
> you.
> I have since 1987 sold well over 800 boosters not to mention installing well
> over 200 unto customers cj model jeeps.
> it will fit, and will work well.
>
> carmine
statistics.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Jet wrote:
>
> here is the email I got back from one of the many sellers on ebay that i
> emailed that are selling wrangler boosters on ebay
>
> hi carmine,
> not sure who you are talking to, but they have no idea what they are telling
> you.
> I have since 1987 sold well over 800 boosters not to mention installing well
> over 200 unto customers cj model jeeps.
> it will fit, and will work well.
>
> carmine
12-06-2003, 06:31 PM
#50
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: installing power brakes on a cj?
here is the email I got back from one of the many sellers on ebay that i
emailed that are selling wrangler boosters on ebay
hi carmine,
not sure who you are talking to, but they have no idea what they are telling
you.
I have since 1987 sold well over 800 boosters not to mention installing well
over 200 unto customers cj model jeeps.
it will fit, and will work well.
carmine
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3FD251C3.645C265A@sympatico.ca...
> I take that back after reading the seller's comments.
>
> They all say the same thing and in my opinion the guy is a fool.
>
> He is talking about 'making' them fit a CJ7.
>
> You can jury rig any booster and master setup to sort of work, that
> doesn't mean it is going to work right.
>
> The master and boosters are matched up to the pistons in the calipers
> and wheel cylinders.
>
> CJ and YJ ones are different as far as I have seen, a lot different....
>
> I would just get a proper CJ one if it was mine. Like I mentioned a new
> CJ7 master is only $38.00....
>
> Mike
>
> Mike Romain wrote:
> >
> > The booster might still be ok, it's the master that isn't.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Jet wrote:
> > >
> > > lee I went to another group to get some other opinions and maybe find
> > > someone who has done this first hand. after I get a bunch of opinions
I will
> > > make a decision whether i want to put it on my jeep or not. but that
does
> > > not mean i am going to use bailing wire and a bunch of rediculous
parts to
> > > put it on. almost all the wrangler boosters on ebay say that they will
work
> > > on cj's. i may just put it back on ebay but i want to get as many
opinions
> > > as possible.
> > >
> > >
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2443418438
> > >
> > >
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2444175893
> > >
> > >
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2445197077
> > >
> > > thanks carmine
> > >
> > > "Lee Ayrton" <layrton@ntplx.net> wrote in message
> > > news:Pine.GSO.4.43.0312061245290.14253-100000@sea.ntplx.net...
> > > >
> > > > See Mike Romain's post on this. You'd do well to take his advice
over
> > > > someone who just wanted your money.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On or about Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Jet of jet@bestweb.net wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > no Lee I have not made funeral arraignments. but I do live on the
top of
> > > a
> > > > > hill from a school and when I work on my jeep I like to drink
allot of
> > > beer
> > > > > and oh yea my emergency brake cables are rusted and don't work,
you know
> > > > > those old jeeps. and my jeep has a supercharger 454 in it so I
always
> > > have
> > > > > the throttle wide open so I don't use brakes that much. but I hope
> > > > > everything will be o.k.
> > > > > but seriously I called the guy who sold me the booster and he
said it
> > > is
> > > > > off of a 94 wrangler with a 4 liter 6 cyl. I would think that if I
keep
> > > the
> > > > > same master cylinder and proportioning valve that the front to
back
> > > > > difference in pressure would stay the same and I would be
increasing the
> > > > > pressure with the booster. just because they changed the part
don't mean
> > > it
> > > > > wont work maybe they were just looking for a different pedal
pressure.
> > > has
> > > > > anyone done a CJ to wrangler brake conversion? thanks carmine
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Lee Ayrton" <layrton@ntplx.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:Pine.GSO.4.43.0312051155370.13615-100000@sea.ntplx.net...
> > > > > > On or about Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Jet of jet@bestweb.net wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I bought a vacuum booster and a master cylinder of a wrangler
on
> > > ebay
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > will be installing it on my 86 cj7 this weekend.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have you made reservations for your funeral on Tuesday?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > my jeep has front disks and back drum brakes with a
proportioning
> > > valve
> > > > > > > mounted to the frame. I noticed that the wrangler master
cylinder
> > > has
> > > > > > > the brake lines coming out of the opposite side is this a
problem?
> > > can I
> > > > > > > unbolt the wrangler master cylinder and bolt my CJ master
cylinder
> > > on
> > > > > > > and not have to bleed the brakes? or do I have to use the
master
> > > > > > > cylinder and booster as a set? where should I hook up the
vacuum
> > > line
> > > > > > > to? anything else anyone can think of that I should do or
should'nt
> > > do?
> > > > > > > thanks carmine
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think you might be in for some trouble making it fit, and the
brake
> > > > > > lines are sending you an important message.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Looking quickly in a mail order catalogue, I notice that the
parts
> > > numbers
> > > > > > for the 78-86 power master cylinder are not the same as the
master for
> > > > > > the 87-89 YJ, the 90-94 (without ABS) or the 95 YJ (with or w/o
ABS).
> > > > > > All different, as are the proportioning valves for 82-86 and
87-93.
> > > Even
> > > > > > if you can physically make it fit (remember the sheet metal
redesign
> > > at
> > > > > > the end of the CJ run -- did they change pedal assemblies too?),
you
> > > still
> > > > > > should want to know if they are hydraulically equal. Looking
again,
> > > the
> > > > > > front calipers fit 82 through 89, then change for 90 through 00,
the
> > > rear
> > > > > > cylinders fit 76 through 89.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Call me a yellow-livered milktoast mamma's boy chicken corporate
> > > > > > ***-sucker if you like, but I wouldn't mess around with brakes
unless
> > > I
> > > > > > knew for sure I was doing the right thing. The "right thing" in
this
> > > case
> > > > > > would be getting the right master and booster for my Jeep
instead of
> > > > > > trying to cobble something up from bits and pieces. You're not
going
> > > to
> > > > > > feel too good about it if the first time you panic-stab the
brakes you
> > > > > > lock the front wheels, skid and kill someone other than
yourself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > "doing whatever it took to capture world marketing shares, even as
far
> > > > as having multiple satellites circling the globe to ensure complete
> > > > coverage and maximum profit potential."
> > > >
> > > > Tealady spills the beans on AFU's new business plan.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
emailed that are selling wrangler boosters on ebay
hi carmine,
not sure who you are talking to, but they have no idea what they are telling
you.
I have since 1987 sold well over 800 boosters not to mention installing well
over 200 unto customers cj model jeeps.
it will fit, and will work well.
carmine
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3FD251C3.645C265A@sympatico.ca...
> I take that back after reading the seller's comments.
>
> They all say the same thing and in my opinion the guy is a fool.
>
> He is talking about 'making' them fit a CJ7.
>
> You can jury rig any booster and master setup to sort of work, that
> doesn't mean it is going to work right.
>
> The master and boosters are matched up to the pistons in the calipers
> and wheel cylinders.
>
> CJ and YJ ones are different as far as I have seen, a lot different....
>
> I would just get a proper CJ one if it was mine. Like I mentioned a new
> CJ7 master is only $38.00....
>
> Mike
>
> Mike Romain wrote:
> >
> > The booster might still be ok, it's the master that isn't.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Jet wrote:
> > >
> > > lee I went to another group to get some other opinions and maybe find
> > > someone who has done this first hand. after I get a bunch of opinions
I will
> > > make a decision whether i want to put it on my jeep or not. but that
does
> > > not mean i am going to use bailing wire and a bunch of rediculous
parts to
> > > put it on. almost all the wrangler boosters on ebay say that they will
work
> > > on cj's. i may just put it back on ebay but i want to get as many
opinions
> > > as possible.
> > >
> > >
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2443418438
> > >
> > >
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2444175893
> > >
> > >
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2445197077
> > >
> > > thanks carmine
> > >
> > > "Lee Ayrton" <layrton@ntplx.net> wrote in message
> > > news:Pine.GSO.4.43.0312061245290.14253-100000@sea.ntplx.net...
> > > >
> > > > See Mike Romain's post on this. You'd do well to take his advice
over
> > > > someone who just wanted your money.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On or about Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Jet of jet@bestweb.net wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > no Lee I have not made funeral arraignments. but I do live on the
top of
> > > a
> > > > > hill from a school and when I work on my jeep I like to drink
allot of
> > > beer
> > > > > and oh yea my emergency brake cables are rusted and don't work,
you know
> > > > > those old jeeps. and my jeep has a supercharger 454 in it so I
always
> > > have
> > > > > the throttle wide open so I don't use brakes that much. but I hope
> > > > > everything will be o.k.
> > > > > but seriously I called the guy who sold me the booster and he
said it
> > > is
> > > > > off of a 94 wrangler with a 4 liter 6 cyl. I would think that if I
keep
> > > the
> > > > > same master cylinder and proportioning valve that the front to
back
> > > > > difference in pressure would stay the same and I would be
increasing the
> > > > > pressure with the booster. just because they changed the part
don't mean
> > > it
> > > > > wont work maybe they were just looking for a different pedal
pressure.
> > > has
> > > > > anyone done a CJ to wrangler brake conversion? thanks carmine
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Lee Ayrton" <layrton@ntplx.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:Pine.GSO.4.43.0312051155370.13615-100000@sea.ntplx.net...
> > > > > > On or about Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Jet of jet@bestweb.net wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I bought a vacuum booster and a master cylinder of a wrangler
on
> > > ebay
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > will be installing it on my 86 cj7 this weekend.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have you made reservations for your funeral on Tuesday?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > my jeep has front disks and back drum brakes with a
proportioning
> > > valve
> > > > > > > mounted to the frame. I noticed that the wrangler master
cylinder
> > > has
> > > > > > > the brake lines coming out of the opposite side is this a
problem?
> > > can I
> > > > > > > unbolt the wrangler master cylinder and bolt my CJ master
cylinder
> > > on
> > > > > > > and not have to bleed the brakes? or do I have to use the
master
> > > > > > > cylinder and booster as a set? where should I hook up the
vacuum
> > > line
> > > > > > > to? anything else anyone can think of that I should do or
should'nt
> > > do?
> > > > > > > thanks carmine
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think you might be in for some trouble making it fit, and the
brake
> > > > > > lines are sending you an important message.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Looking quickly in a mail order catalogue, I notice that the
parts
> > > numbers
> > > > > > for the 78-86 power master cylinder are not the same as the
master for
> > > > > > the 87-89 YJ, the 90-94 (without ABS) or the 95 YJ (with or w/o
ABS).
> > > > > > All different, as are the proportioning valves for 82-86 and
87-93.
> > > Even
> > > > > > if you can physically make it fit (remember the sheet metal
redesign
> > > at
> > > > > > the end of the CJ run -- did they change pedal assemblies too?),
you
> > > still
> > > > > > should want to know if they are hydraulically equal. Looking
again,
> > > the
> > > > > > front calipers fit 82 through 89, then change for 90 through 00,
the
> > > rear
> > > > > > cylinders fit 76 through 89.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Call me a yellow-livered milktoast mamma's boy chicken corporate
> > > > > > ***-sucker if you like, but I wouldn't mess around with brakes
unless
> > > I
> > > > > > knew for sure I was doing the right thing. The "right thing" in
this
> > > case
> > > > > > would be getting the right master and booster for my Jeep
instead of
> > > > > > trying to cobble something up from bits and pieces. You're not
going
> > > to
> > > > > > feel too good about it if the first time you panic-stab the
brakes you
> > > > > > lock the front wheels, skid and kill someone other than
yourself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > "doing whatever it took to capture world marketing shares, even as
far
> > > > as having multiple satellites circling the globe to ensure complete
> > > > coverage and maximum profit potential."
> > > >
> > > > Tealady spills the beans on AFU's new business plan.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >