Bill Funk wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 12:55:00 -0500, Dan Gates
> <dgates@kellerengineering.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Let me just add:
>> Can US
>>
>>
>>Infant mortality/ 1,000
>>live births 5 7
>>
>>Prob. of dying/1,000
>>Age 5, Males 6 8
>>Age 5, Females 5 8
>>
>>Age 15-59, Males 104 148
>>Age 15-59, Females 59 85
>
>
> Point out, while you're at it, that these figures say absolutely
> nothing about health care, one way or another.
>


They certainly must, because to listen to any number of Americans, life
is so tough up here what with the cold and snow and the high taxes and
the low dollar and the poor productivity and the poor democracy, our
lives are much harder to live, we should have much poorer life expectancies.

The figures cited are pretty standard measures of health care efficacy.
Since the US and Canada are so similar, demographically, health care
must be the difference.

Dan

 

Bill Funk wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 12:55:00 -0500, Dan Gates
> <dgates@kellerengineering.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Let me just add:
>> Can US
>>
>>
>>Infant mortality/ 1,000
>>live births 5 7
>>
>>Prob. of dying/1,000
>>Age 5, Males 6 8
>>Age 5, Females 5 8
>>
>>Age 15-59, Males 104 148
>>Age 15-59, Females 59 85
>
>
> Point out, while you're at it, that these figures say absolutely
> nothing about health care, one way or another.
>


They certainly must, because to listen to any number of Americans, life
is so tough up here what with the cold and snow and the high taxes and
the low dollar and the poor productivity and the poor democracy, our
lives are much harder to live, we should have much poorer life expectancies.

The figures cited are pretty standard measures of health care efficacy.
Since the US and Canada are so similar, demographically, health care
must be the difference.

Dan

 

Bill Funk wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 12:55:00 -0500, Dan Gates
> <dgates@kellerengineering.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Let me just add:
>> Can US
>>
>>
>>Infant mortality/ 1,000
>>live births 5 7
>>
>>Prob. of dying/1,000
>>Age 5, Males 6 8
>>Age 5, Females 5 8
>>
>>Age 15-59, Males 104 148
>>Age 15-59, Females 59 85
>
>
> Point out, while you're at it, that these figures say absolutely
> nothing about health care, one way or another.
>


They certainly must, because to listen to any number of Americans, life
is so tough up here what with the cold and snow and the high taxes and
the low dollar and the poor productivity and the poor democracy, our
lives are much harder to live, we should have much poorer life expectancies.

The figures cited are pretty standard measures of health care efficacy.
Since the US and Canada are so similar, demographically, health care
must be the difference.

Dan

 

Bill Funk wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 12:30:46 -0500, Dan Gates
> <dgates@kellerengineering.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Lets compare, shall we?
>> Can. US
>>Life expectancy at birth? 82.7 66.9
>
>
> http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lifexpec.htm
> http://www.retirelink.com/education/LifeExpectancy.html
> http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2000/en/pr2000-life.html
> http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005148.html
>
> Google shows much more of the same.
> Where did 66.9 come from?
>


I explained earlier that I was reading the incorrect Appendix, which
appears to have a different base value.

Sorry

 

Bill Funk wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 12:30:46 -0500, Dan Gates
> <dgates@kellerengineering.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Lets compare, shall we?
>> Can. US
>>Life expectancy at birth? 82.7 66.9
>
>
> http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lifexpec.htm
> http://www.retirelink.com/education/LifeExpectancy.html
> http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2000/en/pr2000-life.html
> http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005148.html
>
> Google shows much more of the same.
> Where did 66.9 come from?
>


I explained earlier that I was reading the incorrect Appendix, which
appears to have a different base value.

Sorry

 

Bill Funk wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 12:30:46 -0500, Dan Gates
> <dgates@kellerengineering.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Lets compare, shall we?
>> Can. US
>>Life expectancy at birth? 82.7 66.9
>
>
> http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lifexpec.htm
> http://www.retirelink.com/education/LifeExpectancy.html
> http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2000/en/pr2000-life.html
> http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005148.html
>
> Google shows much more of the same.
> Where did 66.9 come from?
>


I explained earlier that I was reading the incorrect Appendix, which
appears to have a different base value.

Sorry

 

"Lloyd Parker" <lparker@NOSPAMemory.edu> wrote in message
news:bqq8jt$ikt$7@puck.cc.emory.edu...
> In article <vsv15g1jlv50f8@corp.supernews.com>,
> "The Ancient One" <onlytheone@thetopknows.com> wrote:
> >
> >"David J. Allen" <dallen03NO_SPAM@sanNO_SPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
> >news:a1Lzb.3199$WT6.3101@twister.socal.rr.com.. .
> >>
> >> "Daniel J. Stern" <dastern@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
> >> news:Pine.SOL.4.44.0312031922420.21202-100000@alumni.engin.umich.edu...
> >> > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Bill Putney wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Canada's healthcare system sucks.
> >> >
> >> > I daresay you don't know what you're talking about. I'm an American
> >living
> >> > here in Canada, and guess what? Canada's healthcare system is
*vastly*
> >> > better than the US system in the vast majority of cases. Are there
> >> > exceptions? Surely. There's no such thing as perfection. But the
> >Canadian
> >> > system does a much better job of handling most of the healthcare
needs
> >of
> >> > most of the people at a reasonable cost.
> >> >
> >> > DS
> >> >
> >>
> >> That's great. My experience in a French system was that it did fine
for
> >> everyday stuff: bandages, pain killers, antibiotics. Even then it
could
> >be
> >> a littel scary depending on the doctor you see. I was in an accident
and
> >> hurt my hand and wrist. No big deal, but I was rushed to the hospital
in
> >a
> >> scary ambulance ride (for sprain wrist!) and then when I got there,
they
> >> took my vitals and then took care of my hand. All went well enough
until
> >> the doctor saw my pulse rate. She thought is was too slow, dangerously
> >so,
> >> and so perscribed some pills (in a plastic bag) to speed my heart up.
> >When
> >> I got home I promply threw them away. I think my heart rate was in the
> >> 50's, which is not too slow. I felt great. No different than I ever
did.
> >>
> >> A friend of mine had a more serious condition and even though he had
the
> >> money to see a private doctor, went to the clinic. He went home in a
box
> >> because they didn't misdiagnosed his condition.
> >>
> >> The problem was, in my view, that the best doctors wouldn't come near
the
> >> socialized system, which paid poorly and rationed care. You cannot
avoid
> >> the trade-offs of a socialized system and a private competitive system.
A
> >> private system will leave some behind. A socialized system will give
> >> everyone less quality and quantity overall. It's true with any
"product".
> >
> >For a local example just look at the VA hospitals.
> >
> >
> Ask any veteran if he or she would give that up. Please. Then duck.

My Dad was a Veteran Lloyd, he died because the VA cared more about slashing
costs than providing quality care. Easier, and cheaper, to make an off the
shoulder diagnosis than to run expensive tests. When he was admitted for
pnuemonia they finally decided to run some test to see what was causing it
and found he was riddled with cancer, which any good hospital would have
detected years earlier. He died 8 days later, at home, even though he begged
them to let him stay in the hospital. Hospital beds cost money, and they had
to cut costs, so a dying man was sent home. That is the kind of low quality,
one kind treats all health system you want Lloyd, and it stinks. Now shut up
and stop posting your lies and crap on this or any group.

 

"Lloyd Parker" <lparker@NOSPAMemory.edu> wrote in message
news:bqq8jt$ikt$7@puck.cc.emory.edu...
> In article <vsv15g1jlv50f8@corp.supernews.com>,
> "The Ancient One" <onlytheone@thetopknows.com> wrote:
> >
> >"David J. Allen" <dallen03NO_SPAM@sanNO_SPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
> >news:a1Lzb.3199$WT6.3101@twister.socal.rr.com.. .
> >>
> >> "Daniel J. Stern" <dastern@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
> >> news:Pine.SOL.4.44.0312031922420.21202-100000@alumni.engin.umich.edu...
> >> > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Bill Putney wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Canada's healthcare system sucks.
> >> >
> >> > I daresay you don't know what you're talking about. I'm an American
> >living
> >> > here in Canada, and guess what? Canada's healthcare system is
*vastly*
> >> > better than the US system in the vast majority of cases. Are there
> >> > exceptions? Surely. There's no such thing as perfection. But the
> >Canadian
> >> > system does a much better job of handling most of the healthcare
needs
> >of
> >> > most of the people at a reasonable cost.
> >> >
> >> > DS
> >> >
> >>
> >> That's great. My experience in a French system was that it did fine
for
> >> everyday stuff: bandages, pain killers, antibiotics. Even then it
could
> >be
> >> a littel scary depending on the doctor you see. I was in an accident
and
> >> hurt my hand and wrist. No big deal, but I was rushed to the hospital
in
> >a
> >> scary ambulance ride (for sprain wrist!) and then when I got there,
they
> >> took my vitals and then took care of my hand. All went well enough
until
> >> the doctor saw my pulse rate. She thought is was too slow, dangerously
> >so,
> >> and so perscribed some pills (in a plastic bag) to speed my heart up.
> >When
> >> I got home I promply threw them away. I think my heart rate was in the
> >> 50's, which is not too slow. I felt great. No different than I ever
did.
> >>
> >> A friend of mine had a more serious condition and even though he had
the
> >> money to see a private doctor, went to the clinic. He went home in a
box
> >> because they didn't misdiagnosed his condition.
> >>
> >> The problem was, in my view, that the best doctors wouldn't come near
the
> >> socialized system, which paid poorly and rationed care. You cannot
avoid
> >> the trade-offs of a socialized system and a private competitive system.
A
> >> private system will leave some behind. A socialized system will give
> >> everyone less quality and quantity overall. It's true with any
"product".
> >
> >For a local example just look at the VA hospitals.
> >
> >
> Ask any veteran if he or she would give that up. Please. Then duck.

My Dad was a Veteran Lloyd, he died because the VA cared more about slashing
costs than providing quality care. Easier, and cheaper, to make an off the
shoulder diagnosis than to run expensive tests. When he was admitted for
pnuemonia they finally decided to run some test to see what was causing it
and found he was riddled with cancer, which any good hospital would have
detected years earlier. He died 8 days later, at home, even though he begged
them to let him stay in the hospital. Hospital beds cost money, and they had
to cut costs, so a dying man was sent home. That is the kind of low quality,
one kind treats all health system you want Lloyd, and it stinks. Now shut up
and stop posting your lies and crap on this or any group.

 

"Lloyd Parker" <lparker@NOSPAMemory.edu> wrote in message
news:bqq8jt$ikt$7@puck.cc.emory.edu...
> In article <vsv15g1jlv50f8@corp.supernews.com>,
> "The Ancient One" <onlytheone@thetopknows.com> wrote:
> >
> >"David J. Allen" <dallen03NO_SPAM@sanNO_SPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
> >news:a1Lzb.3199$WT6.3101@twister.socal.rr.com.. .
> >>
> >> "Daniel J. Stern" <dastern@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
> >> news:Pine.SOL.4.44.0312031922420.21202-100000@alumni.engin.umich.edu...
> >> > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Bill Putney wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Canada's healthcare system sucks.
> >> >
> >> > I daresay you don't know what you're talking about. I'm an American
> >living
> >> > here in Canada, and guess what? Canada's healthcare system is
*vastly*
> >> > better than the US system in the vast majority of cases. Are there
> >> > exceptions? Surely. There's no such thing as perfection. But the
> >Canadian
> >> > system does a much better job of handling most of the healthcare
needs
> >of
> >> > most of the people at a reasonable cost.
> >> >
> >> > DS
> >> >
> >>
> >> That's great. My experience in a French system was that it did fine
for
> >> everyday stuff: bandages, pain killers, antibiotics. Even then it
could
> >be
> >> a littel scary depending on the doctor you see. I was in an accident
and
> >> hurt my hand and wrist. No big deal, but I was rushed to the hospital
in
> >a
> >> scary ambulance ride (for sprain wrist!) and then when I got there,
they
> >> took my vitals and then took care of my hand. All went well enough
until
> >> the doctor saw my pulse rate. She thought is was too slow, dangerously
> >so,
> >> and so perscribed some pills (in a plastic bag) to speed my heart up.
> >When
> >> I got home I promply threw them away. I think my heart rate was in the
> >> 50's, which is not too slow. I felt great. No different than I ever
did.
> >>
> >> A friend of mine had a more serious condition and even though he had
the
> >> money to see a private doctor, went to the clinic. He went home in a
box
> >> because they didn't misdiagnosed his condition.
> >>
> >> The problem was, in my view, that the best doctors wouldn't come near
the
> >> socialized system, which paid poorly and rationed care. You cannot
avoid
> >> the trade-offs of a socialized system and a private competitive system.
A
> >> private system will leave some behind. A socialized system will give
> >> everyone less quality and quantity overall. It's true with any
"product".
> >
> >For a local example just look at the VA hospitals.
> >
> >
> Ask any veteran if he or she would give that up. Please. Then duck.

My Dad was a Veteran Lloyd, he died because the VA cared more about slashing
costs than providing quality care. Easier, and cheaper, to make an off the
shoulder diagnosis than to run expensive tests. When he was admitted for
pnuemonia they finally decided to run some test to see what was causing it
and found he was riddled with cancer, which any good hospital would have
detected years earlier. He died 8 days later, at home, even though he begged
them to let him stay in the hospital. Hospital beds cost money, and they had
to cut costs, so a dying man was sent home. That is the kind of low quality,
one kind treats all health system you want Lloyd, and it stinks. Now shut up
and stop posting your lies and crap on this or any group.

 

I am really sorry to hear about your father, but the problem here is
not one of private versus public payment. An insurance company would
do the same -- as happened to my own father.

The problem is causing the health care system to focus on costs rather
than care. This is not inherently the case with single payer systems,
whether that is a facility based private HMO, like Kaiser, or a
facility-based government system like VA. But cost-cutting as the
sole value is the ONLY value in our current insurance system.

I am a republican and a free-market conservative. However, for the
same reasons that I don't want the street in front of my house -- a
natural monopoly -- to be privatized, I don't think health care
payment should be either. Doctors should decide care -- not with the
insurance company's gun at their head and hand in their pocket -- but
with good medical practice. That might have saved your father; I am
quite sure it would have mine.

One way to do this, and I am sure there are others, is to have
government payment, but of private doctors who are not government
employees. Political pressure can be put on the system to provide
care, not just cost-cutting.

There is no current way to to do the same to the HMO"s and insurers.

As a side note, because your message was about care, not money, this
also would probably cost society a lot less, maybe even in taxes but
certainly in total societal costs, than is currently the case, and it
would make our businesses more competitive on a global scale. (The
cost reductions come from lower pension, court, worker's compensation,
insurance overhead, hospital and doctor billing and related expenses.)

Once again, I am sorry to hear about your father's passing from poor
health care -- as a fellow sufferer from the same thing, I empathize.
One may disagree with Lloyd on a lot of things, but on the potential
benefits of government payment to health care he is right.



On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:22:53 -0500, "Douglas A. Shrader"
<dshrader@nospam.com> wrote:

>
>"Lloyd Parker" <lparker@NOSPAMemory.edu> wrote in message
>news:bqq8jt$ikt$7@puck.cc.emory.edu...
>> In article <vsv15g1jlv50f8@corp.supernews.com>,
>> "The Ancient One" <onlytheone@thetopknows.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >"David J. Allen" <dallen03NO_SPAM@sanNO_SPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
>> >news:a1Lzb.3199$WT6.3101@twister.socal.rr.com.. .
>> >>
>> >> "Daniel J. Stern" <dastern@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
>> >> news:Pine.SOL.4.44.0312031922420.21202-100000@alumni.engin.umich.edu...
>> >> > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Bill Putney wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > Canada's healthcare system sucks.
>> >> >
>> >> > I daresay you don't know what you're talking about. I'm an American
>> >living
>> >> > here in Canada, and guess what? Canada's healthcare system is
>*vastly*
>> >> > better than the US system in the vast majority of cases. Are there
>> >> > exceptions? Surely. There's no such thing as perfection. But the
>> >Canadian
>> >> > system does a much better job of handling most of the healthcare
>needs
>> >of
>> >> > most of the people at a reasonable cost.
>> >> >
>> >> > DS
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> That's great. My experience in a French system was that it did fine
>for
>> >> everyday stuff: bandages, pain killers, antibiotics. Even then it
>could
>> >be
>> >> a littel scary depending on the doctor you see. I was in an accident
>and
>> >> hurt my hand and wrist. No big deal, but I was rushed to the hospital
>in
>> >a
>> >> scary ambulance ride (for sprain wrist!) and then when I got there,
>they
>> >> took my vitals and then took care of my hand. All went well enough
>until
>> >> the doctor saw my pulse rate. She thought is was too slow, dangerously
>> >so,
>> >> and so perscribed some pills (in a plastic bag) to speed my heart up.
>> >When
>> >> I got home I promply threw them away. I think my heart rate was in the
>> >> 50's, which is not too slow. I felt great. No different than I ever
>did.
>> >>
>> >> A friend of mine had a more serious condition and even though he had
>the
>> >> money to see a private doctor, went to the clinic. He went home in a
>box
>> >> because they didn't misdiagnosed his condition.
>> >>
>> >> The problem was, in my view, that the best doctors wouldn't come near
>the
>> >> socialized system, which paid poorly and rationed care. You cannot
>avoid
>> >> the trade-offs of a socialized system and a private competitive system.
>A
>> >> private system will leave some behind. A socialized system will give
>> >> everyone less quality and quantity overall. It's true with any
>"product".
>> >
>> >For a local example just look at the VA hospitals.
>> >
>> >
>> Ask any veteran if he or she would give that up. Please. Then duck.
>
>My Dad was a Veteran Lloyd, he died because the VA cared more about slashing
>costs than providing quality care. Easier, and cheaper, to make an off the
>shoulder diagnosis than to run expensive tests. When he was admitted for
>pnuemonia they finally decided to run some test to see what was causing it
>and found he was riddled with cancer, which any good hospital would have
>detected years earlier. He died 8 days later, at home, even though he begged
>them to let him stay in the hospital. Hospital beds cost money, and they had
>to cut costs, so a dying man was sent home. That is the kind of low quality,
>one kind treats all health system you want Lloyd, and it stinks. Now shut up
>and stop posting your lies and crap on this or any group.
>