Discovered Bore
#71
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Discovered Bore
Amen.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Mike Romain wrote:
>
> Too bad you are so far away.
>
> You need someone that knows engines and isn't just out to take you
> money.
>
> Something really strange is going on.....
>
> What you are now describing is blow by, big blow by.
>
> You cannot have this with 150 psi compression unless the PCV valve is
> just plain broken or shut off from a bad charcoal canister.
>
> What did your air filter look like? It 'must' have been just full of
> oil to have the intake with oil pools in it.
>
> If it wasn't full of oil, then you do not have 'blow by'.
>
> You also 'must' have had one big blue cloud following you with the
> amount of oil you describe in the intake, no two ways about it. (unless
> it is gas wash)
>
> You are aware that a dead charcoal canister will produce enough blow by
> to really imitate a blown engine right? It will soak an air filter in a
> week.
>
> I am really almost thinking that someone sold you a dead FI system. I
> think it was broken and giving them the same fits and strange symptoms
> you are getting so they unloaded it on you.
>
> Gas wash is very strange if you haven't seen it before. It takes very
> little gas to wash down the dirt and oil and make a messy slurry that
> almost looks like oil. This can pool in an intake manifold or into a
> piston.
>
> You are describing injectors leaking down and pooling in the intake or
> 'gas wash'.
>
> Good luck Bill!
>
> I am out of ideas.
>
> Mike
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Mike Romain wrote:
>
> Too bad you are so far away.
>
> You need someone that knows engines and isn't just out to take you
> money.
>
> Something really strange is going on.....
>
> What you are now describing is blow by, big blow by.
>
> You cannot have this with 150 psi compression unless the PCV valve is
> just plain broken or shut off from a bad charcoal canister.
>
> What did your air filter look like? It 'must' have been just full of
> oil to have the intake with oil pools in it.
>
> If it wasn't full of oil, then you do not have 'blow by'.
>
> You also 'must' have had one big blue cloud following you with the
> amount of oil you describe in the intake, no two ways about it. (unless
> it is gas wash)
>
> You are aware that a dead charcoal canister will produce enough blow by
> to really imitate a blown engine right? It will soak an air filter in a
> week.
>
> I am really almost thinking that someone sold you a dead FI system. I
> think it was broken and giving them the same fits and strange symptoms
> you are getting so they unloaded it on you.
>
> Gas wash is very strange if you haven't seen it before. It takes very
> little gas to wash down the dirt and oil and make a messy slurry that
> almost looks like oil. This can pool in an intake manifold or into a
> piston.
>
> You are describing injectors leaking down and pooling in the intake or
> 'gas wash'.
>
> Good luck Bill!
>
> I am out of ideas.
>
> Mike
#72
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Discovered Bore
Amen.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Mike Romain wrote:
>
> Too bad you are so far away.
>
> You need someone that knows engines and isn't just out to take you
> money.
>
> Something really strange is going on.....
>
> What you are now describing is blow by, big blow by.
>
> You cannot have this with 150 psi compression unless the PCV valve is
> just plain broken or shut off from a bad charcoal canister.
>
> What did your air filter look like? It 'must' have been just full of
> oil to have the intake with oil pools in it.
>
> If it wasn't full of oil, then you do not have 'blow by'.
>
> You also 'must' have had one big blue cloud following you with the
> amount of oil you describe in the intake, no two ways about it. (unless
> it is gas wash)
>
> You are aware that a dead charcoal canister will produce enough blow by
> to really imitate a blown engine right? It will soak an air filter in a
> week.
>
> I am really almost thinking that someone sold you a dead FI system. I
> think it was broken and giving them the same fits and strange symptoms
> you are getting so they unloaded it on you.
>
> Gas wash is very strange if you haven't seen it before. It takes very
> little gas to wash down the dirt and oil and make a messy slurry that
> almost looks like oil. This can pool in an intake manifold or into a
> piston.
>
> You are describing injectors leaking down and pooling in the intake or
> 'gas wash'.
>
> Good luck Bill!
>
> I am out of ideas.
>
> Mike
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Mike Romain wrote:
>
> Too bad you are so far away.
>
> You need someone that knows engines and isn't just out to take you
> money.
>
> Something really strange is going on.....
>
> What you are now describing is blow by, big blow by.
>
> You cannot have this with 150 psi compression unless the PCV valve is
> just plain broken or shut off from a bad charcoal canister.
>
> What did your air filter look like? It 'must' have been just full of
> oil to have the intake with oil pools in it.
>
> If it wasn't full of oil, then you do not have 'blow by'.
>
> You also 'must' have had one big blue cloud following you with the
> amount of oil you describe in the intake, no two ways about it. (unless
> it is gas wash)
>
> You are aware that a dead charcoal canister will produce enough blow by
> to really imitate a blown engine right? It will soak an air filter in a
> week.
>
> I am really almost thinking that someone sold you a dead FI system. I
> think it was broken and giving them the same fits and strange symptoms
> you are getting so they unloaded it on you.
>
> Gas wash is very strange if you haven't seen it before. It takes very
> little gas to wash down the dirt and oil and make a messy slurry that
> almost looks like oil. This can pool in an intake manifold or into a
> piston.
>
> You are describing injectors leaking down and pooling in the intake or
> 'gas wash'.
>
> Good luck Bill!
>
> I am out of ideas.
>
> Mike
#73
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Discovered Bore
Amen.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Mike Romain wrote:
>
> Too bad you are so far away.
>
> You need someone that knows engines and isn't just out to take you
> money.
>
> Something really strange is going on.....
>
> What you are now describing is blow by, big blow by.
>
> You cannot have this with 150 psi compression unless the PCV valve is
> just plain broken or shut off from a bad charcoal canister.
>
> What did your air filter look like? It 'must' have been just full of
> oil to have the intake with oil pools in it.
>
> If it wasn't full of oil, then you do not have 'blow by'.
>
> You also 'must' have had one big blue cloud following you with the
> amount of oil you describe in the intake, no two ways about it. (unless
> it is gas wash)
>
> You are aware that a dead charcoal canister will produce enough blow by
> to really imitate a blown engine right? It will soak an air filter in a
> week.
>
> I am really almost thinking that someone sold you a dead FI system. I
> think it was broken and giving them the same fits and strange symptoms
> you are getting so they unloaded it on you.
>
> Gas wash is very strange if you haven't seen it before. It takes very
> little gas to wash down the dirt and oil and make a messy slurry that
> almost looks like oil. This can pool in an intake manifold or into a
> piston.
>
> You are describing injectors leaking down and pooling in the intake or
> 'gas wash'.
>
> Good luck Bill!
>
> I am out of ideas.
>
> Mike
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Mike Romain wrote:
>
> Too bad you are so far away.
>
> You need someone that knows engines and isn't just out to take you
> money.
>
> Something really strange is going on.....
>
> What you are now describing is blow by, big blow by.
>
> You cannot have this with 150 psi compression unless the PCV valve is
> just plain broken or shut off from a bad charcoal canister.
>
> What did your air filter look like? It 'must' have been just full of
> oil to have the intake with oil pools in it.
>
> If it wasn't full of oil, then you do not have 'blow by'.
>
> You also 'must' have had one big blue cloud following you with the
> amount of oil you describe in the intake, no two ways about it. (unless
> it is gas wash)
>
> You are aware that a dead charcoal canister will produce enough blow by
> to really imitate a blown engine right? It will soak an air filter in a
> week.
>
> I am really almost thinking that someone sold you a dead FI system. I
> think it was broken and giving them the same fits and strange symptoms
> you are getting so they unloaded it on you.
>
> Gas wash is very strange if you haven't seen it before. It takes very
> little gas to wash down the dirt and oil and make a messy slurry that
> almost looks like oil. This can pool in an intake manifold or into a
> piston.
>
> You are describing injectors leaking down and pooling in the intake or
> 'gas wash'.
>
> Good luck Bill!
>
> I am out of ideas.
>
> Mike
#74
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Discovered Bore
I deleted the pics, sorry, the journal in question on mine
was visibly damaged at the point where the polished journal
met with the rough cast lobe, and subsequently undersized.
If this is a problem, and it caused the rings to break or
fail in some way, fixing the rings alone
is temporary, I'd at least remover the rod cap, and check
that journal. Any problem there will be visible. Somewhere
someone, perhaps many, suggested the rings, sounded pretty
well backed up too. I'd pull that piston and re-ring that
one, and once you see how easy that is, you'll probably do
them all. Make sure that it was not caused by something
else.
FWIW, the cyl walls on mine were absolutely beautiful when I
took it down, I had a terrible slap by the time I did the
real repair, and was anticipating wall damage. I was pretty
shocked. Renewed my faith in that particular motor. I don't
think any one thing is going to lead you to the source of
your situation. But, checking out that piston/rings seems
like it might give you a handle.
"William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
news:c1ocqs$1j5gro$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de...
| Thank you for your time on this response Steve, Fennidh,
all.
|
| A couple of things. I did not change the injectors around
so there was no
| results to indicate whether it was the injector or not.
Also, The cold leak
| down test on #2 was significantly higher than the
following warm engine
| test. Also, you are correct in that I could not detect
any fuel smell in
| the oil (I checked again when my nose was better).
|
| Regarding the Rod theory, I had been hearing some noise on
a cold engine
| which did dissipate as it warmed up. Larie at JeepsRUs
also mentioned
| hearing a noise in the engine when I was there for DRB
diagnostics so this
| is a possibility.
|
| Can someone describe what to look for at the
Rod/Bearing/Crank level if this
| is the problem? Will the bearings be loose when I move it
back and forth?
|
| Thanks,
|
| Bill
|
|
|
| "Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in
message
| news:dMN%b.630182$X%5.347735@pd7tw2no...
| > I don't see it. He says a leak down test showed it with
2 to 3 times the
| > loss as the other cylinders. Cold cranking compression
can be misleading
| it
| > there's enough oil staying on the walls to seal the cyl.
His original
| > complaint was the oil consumtion if I remember
correctly, that's why he
| did
| > the valve seals. No mention of a dead cylinder, which
would have been his
| > first complaint if your gas wash theory was correct. He
would have to
| have
| > that cylinder completely misfiring. I think the only
way he could have
| that
| > problem was if the injector was stuck open, but that
would flood the
| > cylinder and give him his misfire, which he would have
felt and been his
| > first complaint. He did also switch the injectors at
one point if I
| > remember right and the problem should have moved to the
next cylinder. I
| > would look closely to see if there's a vacuum take off
on that runner of
| the
| > intake that could be introducing oil to that cylinder
only. I don't
| recall
| > if this is an automatic and if so wether it uses a
vacuum modulater, but
| > that's the kind of thing that could suck oil into that
cylinder only if
| the
| > take off was on the #2 runner of the intake.
| > My money's still on the rings on that #2 cyl. I've
seen it often
| enough
| > to say that's what they look like.
| > Difficult to do arm chair diagnosis from 3000 miles
away. I would
| have
| > wanted to hear it run, do a dynamic compression test to
determine that
| > cylinder's contribution at running speed, take a close
look at the plugs
| > etcc, but from the looks and sounds of things he's got
way to much oil
| above
| > the piston and it's got to be coming from somewhere.
Even if it were this
| > gas wash, you'd have to have a significant amount of oil
to wash into that
| > mess. Another thing that doesn't ring right about the
"gas wash" as I
| think
| > about it, is that when you have a severely flooded
engine, in this case it
| a
| > severely flooded cylinder, the fuel will run down the
cylinder walls and
| > dilute the oil. The oil would smell strongly of fuel.
| > He's got a significant amount of oil on the wrong
side of the piston.
| > Where did it come from? Two possibilities, below the
piston past the
| rings
| > or above the piston through the intake or valve guides.
He's eliminated
| > valve guides. Process of elimination, look for that
other sources of oil
| > entering the intake. If it can't be found process of
elimination would
| lead
| > to the piston/rings. Another contributer mentions
excessive oil from that
| > rod bearing. A good possibility as well, even good
rings can't control an
| > excess amount, but he should have heard the rod noise,
especially when
| first
| > starting until oil pressure came up.
| > I actually don't see much choice at this point
anyways. From the
| looks
| > of the top of that piston even if the root cause wasn't
the rings they're
| so
| > gummed up now that the piston should be removed, cleaned
and the rings
| > replaced.
| > One other thing to look for on the cylinder walls is
the start of a
| > second ridge below the first. This will sometimes
indicate that the top
| > ring is broken. Careful though, the absence of a second
ridge is not an
| > indication of no problem, just the presence of one is an
indication of a
| > problem.
| > Steve
| > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
| > news:403F7731.FAC269E2@sympatico.ca...
| > > The charcoal canister purges into the PCV system when
the engine is hot
| > > and at speed.
| > >
| > > If the purge valve is blown, it effectively shuts down
the PCV system so
| > > oil blows into the air filter.
| > >
| > > The only test I know is to pinch off the line from the
canister to the
| > > PCV system at idle to see if the idle changes. If the
idle changes, the
| > > canister purge is dead.
| > >
| > > A dead canister will also cause an unstable idle
speed. It will vary up
| > > and down and surge slightly.
| > >
| > > No, a dead canister will not just get one cylinder
'wet'. I also don't
| > > believe a dead canister or blow by of any type can
pool oil in the
| > > bottom of the intake manifold or in the individual
fingers leading to
| > > the cylinders.
| > >
| > > When my air filter filled with oil, it dripped out on
the ground. The
| > > lip of the intake prevents oil from dripping down the
throat of the carb
| > > or TB unless the oil in the air filter is deeper than
1/4" or so and you
| > > have the air filter that sits on top of the carb or
TB.
| > >
| > > I still think gas and bad injectors man.....
| > >
| > > How was the gas mileage on that engine?
| > >
| > > If it was mine, I think I would put the carb back on
and see what
| > > happens before spending a dime on it.
| > >
| > > Mike
| > >
| > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > >
| > > > Mike,
| > > > Is there any way to test a charcoal can detatched
from the jeep?
| > > >
| > > > Would a bad charcoal Can cause the effect like we
see in #2 cylinder?
| > > >
| > > > When I checked the other items (air filter
tube/housing, pcv tube,
| > throttle
| > > > body) I also looked at the air filter. It was dirty
at the bottom but
| > > > nothing that bad. Remember, this air filter is
sprayed with oil so
| the
| > oil
| > > > I sprayed it with accumulated at the bottom. Like
an ounce or so.
| You
| > > > couldn't even get your hands wet with it. Not to
the degree you
| > discribe.
| > > >
| > > > Bill
| > > >
| > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > news:403F5D0B.78D5950F@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > Too bad you are so far away.
| > > > >
| > > > > You need someone that knows engines and isn't just
out to take you
| > > > > money.
| > > > >
| > > > > Something really strange is going on.....
| > > > >
| > > > > What you are now describing is blow by, big blow
by.
| > > > >
| > > > > You cannot have this with 150 psi compression
unless the PCV valve
| is
| > > > > just plain broken or shut off from a bad charcoal
canister.
| > > > >
| > > > > What did your air filter look like? It 'must'
have been just full
| of
| > > > > oil to have the intake with oil pools in it.
| > > > >
| > > > > If it wasn't full of oil, then you do not have
'blow by'.
| > > > >
| > > > > You also 'must' have had one big blue cloud
following you with the
| > > > > amount of oil you describe in the intake, no two
ways about it.
| > (unless
| > > > > it is gas wash)
| > > > >
| > > > > You are aware that a dead charcoal canister will
produce enough blow
| b
| > y
| > > > > to really imitate a blown engine right? It will
soak an air filter
| in
| > a
| > > > > week.
| > > > >
| > > > > I am really almost thinking that someone sold you
a dead FI system.
| I
| > > > > think it was broken and giving them the same fits
and strange
| symptoms
| > > > > you are getting so they unloaded it on you.
| > > > >
| > > > > Gas wash is very strange if you haven't seen it
before. It takes
| very
| > > > > little gas to wash down the dirt and oil and make
a messy slurry
| that
| > > > > almost looks like oil. This can pool in an intake
manifold or into
| a
| > > > > piston.
| > > > >
| > > > > You are describing injectors leaking down and
pooling in the intake
| or
| > > > > 'gas wash'.
| > > > >
| > > > > Good luck Bill!
| > > > >
| > > > > I am out of ideas.
| > > > >
| > > > > Mike
| > > > >
| > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > >
| > > > > > I took the intake manifold to a perfomance shop
today to have the
| > > > injector
| > > > > > in question tested and the mechanic told me it's
highly unlikely
| to
| > be
| > > > > > cylinder wash. He looked at the intake manifold
and saw oil in
| each
| > > > > > manifold "finger" (which I didn't see before)
and when he opened
| the
| > > > > > throttle there was a pool of oil in the there.
When I looked in
| the
| > > > same
| > > > > > place when the intake was on the engine I didn't
see a drop. I
| felt
| > and
| > > > ran
| > > > > > a q-tip inside the pcv valve hose and didn't
come back with any
| oil
| > > > stains.
| > > > > > I put my hand inside the filter hose which
connects to the
| throttle
| > body
| > > > and
| > > > > > I didn't feel any oil there either. Of course,
this was closer to
| > when
| > > > I
| > > > > > started this process and not in the later days.
Could be it got
| > worse
| > > > in
| > > > > > the end or was pooled in the intake and didn't
show up in the
| > throttle
| > > > body.
| > > > > > He told me Blow By was going on and I needed a
new engine.
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Is there anything else that could be going on as
I'm getting ansy
| > about
| > > > > > pulling this piston. Could there be some effect
which is
| affecting
| > only
| > > > #2?
| > > > > > Should I have him test #2 injector anyway and
see what he finds?
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Thanks,
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Bill
| > > > > >
| > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > > > news:403E9B6D.FF814819@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > > > I would 'highly' recommend you get a hold of
the shop and try to
| > find
| > > > > > > out exactly what they did to it and what the
invoices mean.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > I saw a 'generic' rebuilt engine quote.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > They only fix what is messed up on those kind
of quotes....
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Still looks like a gas washed cylinder to me
though...
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Mike
| > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose
to tail in '00
| > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > Looks like my pistons are .40 over. There's
a 40 on top of
| the
| > > > pistons.
| >
| >
|
|
was visibly damaged at the point where the polished journal
met with the rough cast lobe, and subsequently undersized.
If this is a problem, and it caused the rings to break or
fail in some way, fixing the rings alone
is temporary, I'd at least remover the rod cap, and check
that journal. Any problem there will be visible. Somewhere
someone, perhaps many, suggested the rings, sounded pretty
well backed up too. I'd pull that piston and re-ring that
one, and once you see how easy that is, you'll probably do
them all. Make sure that it was not caused by something
else.
FWIW, the cyl walls on mine were absolutely beautiful when I
took it down, I had a terrible slap by the time I did the
real repair, and was anticipating wall damage. I was pretty
shocked. Renewed my faith in that particular motor. I don't
think any one thing is going to lead you to the source of
your situation. But, checking out that piston/rings seems
like it might give you a handle.
"William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
news:c1ocqs$1j5gro$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de...
| Thank you for your time on this response Steve, Fennidh,
all.
|
| A couple of things. I did not change the injectors around
so there was no
| results to indicate whether it was the injector or not.
Also, The cold leak
| down test on #2 was significantly higher than the
following warm engine
| test. Also, you are correct in that I could not detect
any fuel smell in
| the oil (I checked again when my nose was better).
|
| Regarding the Rod theory, I had been hearing some noise on
a cold engine
| which did dissipate as it warmed up. Larie at JeepsRUs
also mentioned
| hearing a noise in the engine when I was there for DRB
diagnostics so this
| is a possibility.
|
| Can someone describe what to look for at the
Rod/Bearing/Crank level if this
| is the problem? Will the bearings be loose when I move it
back and forth?
|
| Thanks,
|
| Bill
|
|
|
| "Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in
message
| news:dMN%b.630182$X%5.347735@pd7tw2no...
| > I don't see it. He says a leak down test showed it with
2 to 3 times the
| > loss as the other cylinders. Cold cranking compression
can be misleading
| it
| > there's enough oil staying on the walls to seal the cyl.
His original
| > complaint was the oil consumtion if I remember
correctly, that's why he
| did
| > the valve seals. No mention of a dead cylinder, which
would have been his
| > first complaint if your gas wash theory was correct. He
would have to
| have
| > that cylinder completely misfiring. I think the only
way he could have
| that
| > problem was if the injector was stuck open, but that
would flood the
| > cylinder and give him his misfire, which he would have
felt and been his
| > first complaint. He did also switch the injectors at
one point if I
| > remember right and the problem should have moved to the
next cylinder. I
| > would look closely to see if there's a vacuum take off
on that runner of
| the
| > intake that could be introducing oil to that cylinder
only. I don't
| recall
| > if this is an automatic and if so wether it uses a
vacuum modulater, but
| > that's the kind of thing that could suck oil into that
cylinder only if
| the
| > take off was on the #2 runner of the intake.
| > My money's still on the rings on that #2 cyl. I've
seen it often
| enough
| > to say that's what they look like.
| > Difficult to do arm chair diagnosis from 3000 miles
away. I would
| have
| > wanted to hear it run, do a dynamic compression test to
determine that
| > cylinder's contribution at running speed, take a close
look at the plugs
| > etcc, but from the looks and sounds of things he's got
way to much oil
| above
| > the piston and it's got to be coming from somewhere.
Even if it were this
| > gas wash, you'd have to have a significant amount of oil
to wash into that
| > mess. Another thing that doesn't ring right about the
"gas wash" as I
| think
| > about it, is that when you have a severely flooded
engine, in this case it
| a
| > severely flooded cylinder, the fuel will run down the
cylinder walls and
| > dilute the oil. The oil would smell strongly of fuel.
| > He's got a significant amount of oil on the wrong
side of the piston.
| > Where did it come from? Two possibilities, below the
piston past the
| rings
| > or above the piston through the intake or valve guides.
He's eliminated
| > valve guides. Process of elimination, look for that
other sources of oil
| > entering the intake. If it can't be found process of
elimination would
| lead
| > to the piston/rings. Another contributer mentions
excessive oil from that
| > rod bearing. A good possibility as well, even good
rings can't control an
| > excess amount, but he should have heard the rod noise,
especially when
| first
| > starting until oil pressure came up.
| > I actually don't see much choice at this point
anyways. From the
| looks
| > of the top of that piston even if the root cause wasn't
the rings they're
| so
| > gummed up now that the piston should be removed, cleaned
and the rings
| > replaced.
| > One other thing to look for on the cylinder walls is
the start of a
| > second ridge below the first. This will sometimes
indicate that the top
| > ring is broken. Careful though, the absence of a second
ridge is not an
| > indication of no problem, just the presence of one is an
indication of a
| > problem.
| > Steve
| > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
| > news:403F7731.FAC269E2@sympatico.ca...
| > > The charcoal canister purges into the PCV system when
the engine is hot
| > > and at speed.
| > >
| > > If the purge valve is blown, it effectively shuts down
the PCV system so
| > > oil blows into the air filter.
| > >
| > > The only test I know is to pinch off the line from the
canister to the
| > > PCV system at idle to see if the idle changes. If the
idle changes, the
| > > canister purge is dead.
| > >
| > > A dead canister will also cause an unstable idle
speed. It will vary up
| > > and down and surge slightly.
| > >
| > > No, a dead canister will not just get one cylinder
'wet'. I also don't
| > > believe a dead canister or blow by of any type can
pool oil in the
| > > bottom of the intake manifold or in the individual
fingers leading to
| > > the cylinders.
| > >
| > > When my air filter filled with oil, it dripped out on
the ground. The
| > > lip of the intake prevents oil from dripping down the
throat of the carb
| > > or TB unless the oil in the air filter is deeper than
1/4" or so and you
| > > have the air filter that sits on top of the carb or
TB.
| > >
| > > I still think gas and bad injectors man.....
| > >
| > > How was the gas mileage on that engine?
| > >
| > > If it was mine, I think I would put the carb back on
and see what
| > > happens before spending a dime on it.
| > >
| > > Mike
| > >
| > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > >
| > > > Mike,
| > > > Is there any way to test a charcoal can detatched
from the jeep?
| > > >
| > > > Would a bad charcoal Can cause the effect like we
see in #2 cylinder?
| > > >
| > > > When I checked the other items (air filter
tube/housing, pcv tube,
| > throttle
| > > > body) I also looked at the air filter. It was dirty
at the bottom but
| > > > nothing that bad. Remember, this air filter is
sprayed with oil so
| the
| > oil
| > > > I sprayed it with accumulated at the bottom. Like
an ounce or so.
| You
| > > > couldn't even get your hands wet with it. Not to
the degree you
| > discribe.
| > > >
| > > > Bill
| > > >
| > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > news:403F5D0B.78D5950F@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > Too bad you are so far away.
| > > > >
| > > > > You need someone that knows engines and isn't just
out to take you
| > > > > money.
| > > > >
| > > > > Something really strange is going on.....
| > > > >
| > > > > What you are now describing is blow by, big blow
by.
| > > > >
| > > > > You cannot have this with 150 psi compression
unless the PCV valve
| is
| > > > > just plain broken or shut off from a bad charcoal
canister.
| > > > >
| > > > > What did your air filter look like? It 'must'
have been just full
| of
| > > > > oil to have the intake with oil pools in it.
| > > > >
| > > > > If it wasn't full of oil, then you do not have
'blow by'.
| > > > >
| > > > > You also 'must' have had one big blue cloud
following you with the
| > > > > amount of oil you describe in the intake, no two
ways about it.
| > (unless
| > > > > it is gas wash)
| > > > >
| > > > > You are aware that a dead charcoal canister will
produce enough blow
| b
| > y
| > > > > to really imitate a blown engine right? It will
soak an air filter
| in
| > a
| > > > > week.
| > > > >
| > > > > I am really almost thinking that someone sold you
a dead FI system.
| I
| > > > > think it was broken and giving them the same fits
and strange
| symptoms
| > > > > you are getting so they unloaded it on you.
| > > > >
| > > > > Gas wash is very strange if you haven't seen it
before. It takes
| very
| > > > > little gas to wash down the dirt and oil and make
a messy slurry
| that
| > > > > almost looks like oil. This can pool in an intake
manifold or into
| a
| > > > > piston.
| > > > >
| > > > > You are describing injectors leaking down and
pooling in the intake
| or
| > > > > 'gas wash'.
| > > > >
| > > > > Good luck Bill!
| > > > >
| > > > > I am out of ideas.
| > > > >
| > > > > Mike
| > > > >
| > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > >
| > > > > > I took the intake manifold to a perfomance shop
today to have the
| > > > injector
| > > > > > in question tested and the mechanic told me it's
highly unlikely
| to
| > be
| > > > > > cylinder wash. He looked at the intake manifold
and saw oil in
| each
| > > > > > manifold "finger" (which I didn't see before)
and when he opened
| the
| > > > > > throttle there was a pool of oil in the there.
When I looked in
| the
| > > > same
| > > > > > place when the intake was on the engine I didn't
see a drop. I
| felt
| > and
| > > > ran
| > > > > > a q-tip inside the pcv valve hose and didn't
come back with any
| oil
| > > > stains.
| > > > > > I put my hand inside the filter hose which
connects to the
| throttle
| > body
| > > > and
| > > > > > I didn't feel any oil there either. Of course,
this was closer to
| > when
| > > > I
| > > > > > started this process and not in the later days.
Could be it got
| > worse
| > > > in
| > > > > > the end or was pooled in the intake and didn't
show up in the
| > throttle
| > > > body.
| > > > > > He told me Blow By was going on and I needed a
new engine.
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Is there anything else that could be going on as
I'm getting ansy
| > about
| > > > > > pulling this piston. Could there be some effect
which is
| affecting
| > only
| > > > #2?
| > > > > > Should I have him test #2 injector anyway and
see what he finds?
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Thanks,
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Bill
| > > > > >
| > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > > > news:403E9B6D.FF814819@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > > > I would 'highly' recommend you get a hold of
the shop and try to
| > find
| > > > > > > out exactly what they did to it and what the
invoices mean.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > I saw a 'generic' rebuilt engine quote.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > They only fix what is messed up on those kind
of quotes....
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Still looks like a gas washed cylinder to me
though...
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Mike
| > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose
to tail in '00
| > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > Looks like my pistons are .40 over. There's
a 40 on top of
| the
| > > > pistons.
| >
| >
|
|
#75
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Discovered Bore
I deleted the pics, sorry, the journal in question on mine
was visibly damaged at the point where the polished journal
met with the rough cast lobe, and subsequently undersized.
If this is a problem, and it caused the rings to break or
fail in some way, fixing the rings alone
is temporary, I'd at least remover the rod cap, and check
that journal. Any problem there will be visible. Somewhere
someone, perhaps many, suggested the rings, sounded pretty
well backed up too. I'd pull that piston and re-ring that
one, and once you see how easy that is, you'll probably do
them all. Make sure that it was not caused by something
else.
FWIW, the cyl walls on mine were absolutely beautiful when I
took it down, I had a terrible slap by the time I did the
real repair, and was anticipating wall damage. I was pretty
shocked. Renewed my faith in that particular motor. I don't
think any one thing is going to lead you to the source of
your situation. But, checking out that piston/rings seems
like it might give you a handle.
"William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
news:c1ocqs$1j5gro$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de...
| Thank you for your time on this response Steve, Fennidh,
all.
|
| A couple of things. I did not change the injectors around
so there was no
| results to indicate whether it was the injector or not.
Also, The cold leak
| down test on #2 was significantly higher than the
following warm engine
| test. Also, you are correct in that I could not detect
any fuel smell in
| the oil (I checked again when my nose was better).
|
| Regarding the Rod theory, I had been hearing some noise on
a cold engine
| which did dissipate as it warmed up. Larie at JeepsRUs
also mentioned
| hearing a noise in the engine when I was there for DRB
diagnostics so this
| is a possibility.
|
| Can someone describe what to look for at the
Rod/Bearing/Crank level if this
| is the problem? Will the bearings be loose when I move it
back and forth?
|
| Thanks,
|
| Bill
|
|
|
| "Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in
message
| news:dMN%b.630182$X%5.347735@pd7tw2no...
| > I don't see it. He says a leak down test showed it with
2 to 3 times the
| > loss as the other cylinders. Cold cranking compression
can be misleading
| it
| > there's enough oil staying on the walls to seal the cyl.
His original
| > complaint was the oil consumtion if I remember
correctly, that's why he
| did
| > the valve seals. No mention of a dead cylinder, which
would have been his
| > first complaint if your gas wash theory was correct. He
would have to
| have
| > that cylinder completely misfiring. I think the only
way he could have
| that
| > problem was if the injector was stuck open, but that
would flood the
| > cylinder and give him his misfire, which he would have
felt and been his
| > first complaint. He did also switch the injectors at
one point if I
| > remember right and the problem should have moved to the
next cylinder. I
| > would look closely to see if there's a vacuum take off
on that runner of
| the
| > intake that could be introducing oil to that cylinder
only. I don't
| recall
| > if this is an automatic and if so wether it uses a
vacuum modulater, but
| > that's the kind of thing that could suck oil into that
cylinder only if
| the
| > take off was on the #2 runner of the intake.
| > My money's still on the rings on that #2 cyl. I've
seen it often
| enough
| > to say that's what they look like.
| > Difficult to do arm chair diagnosis from 3000 miles
away. I would
| have
| > wanted to hear it run, do a dynamic compression test to
determine that
| > cylinder's contribution at running speed, take a close
look at the plugs
| > etcc, but from the looks and sounds of things he's got
way to much oil
| above
| > the piston and it's got to be coming from somewhere.
Even if it were this
| > gas wash, you'd have to have a significant amount of oil
to wash into that
| > mess. Another thing that doesn't ring right about the
"gas wash" as I
| think
| > about it, is that when you have a severely flooded
engine, in this case it
| a
| > severely flooded cylinder, the fuel will run down the
cylinder walls and
| > dilute the oil. The oil would smell strongly of fuel.
| > He's got a significant amount of oil on the wrong
side of the piston.
| > Where did it come from? Two possibilities, below the
piston past the
| rings
| > or above the piston through the intake or valve guides.
He's eliminated
| > valve guides. Process of elimination, look for that
other sources of oil
| > entering the intake. If it can't be found process of
elimination would
| lead
| > to the piston/rings. Another contributer mentions
excessive oil from that
| > rod bearing. A good possibility as well, even good
rings can't control an
| > excess amount, but he should have heard the rod noise,
especially when
| first
| > starting until oil pressure came up.
| > I actually don't see much choice at this point
anyways. From the
| looks
| > of the top of that piston even if the root cause wasn't
the rings they're
| so
| > gummed up now that the piston should be removed, cleaned
and the rings
| > replaced.
| > One other thing to look for on the cylinder walls is
the start of a
| > second ridge below the first. This will sometimes
indicate that the top
| > ring is broken. Careful though, the absence of a second
ridge is not an
| > indication of no problem, just the presence of one is an
indication of a
| > problem.
| > Steve
| > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
| > news:403F7731.FAC269E2@sympatico.ca...
| > > The charcoal canister purges into the PCV system when
the engine is hot
| > > and at speed.
| > >
| > > If the purge valve is blown, it effectively shuts down
the PCV system so
| > > oil blows into the air filter.
| > >
| > > The only test I know is to pinch off the line from the
canister to the
| > > PCV system at idle to see if the idle changes. If the
idle changes, the
| > > canister purge is dead.
| > >
| > > A dead canister will also cause an unstable idle
speed. It will vary up
| > > and down and surge slightly.
| > >
| > > No, a dead canister will not just get one cylinder
'wet'. I also don't
| > > believe a dead canister or blow by of any type can
pool oil in the
| > > bottom of the intake manifold or in the individual
fingers leading to
| > > the cylinders.
| > >
| > > When my air filter filled with oil, it dripped out on
the ground. The
| > > lip of the intake prevents oil from dripping down the
throat of the carb
| > > or TB unless the oil in the air filter is deeper than
1/4" or so and you
| > > have the air filter that sits on top of the carb or
TB.
| > >
| > > I still think gas and bad injectors man.....
| > >
| > > How was the gas mileage on that engine?
| > >
| > > If it was mine, I think I would put the carb back on
and see what
| > > happens before spending a dime on it.
| > >
| > > Mike
| > >
| > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > >
| > > > Mike,
| > > > Is there any way to test a charcoal can detatched
from the jeep?
| > > >
| > > > Would a bad charcoal Can cause the effect like we
see in #2 cylinder?
| > > >
| > > > When I checked the other items (air filter
tube/housing, pcv tube,
| > throttle
| > > > body) I also looked at the air filter. It was dirty
at the bottom but
| > > > nothing that bad. Remember, this air filter is
sprayed with oil so
| the
| > oil
| > > > I sprayed it with accumulated at the bottom. Like
an ounce or so.
| You
| > > > couldn't even get your hands wet with it. Not to
the degree you
| > discribe.
| > > >
| > > > Bill
| > > >
| > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > news:403F5D0B.78D5950F@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > Too bad you are so far away.
| > > > >
| > > > > You need someone that knows engines and isn't just
out to take you
| > > > > money.
| > > > >
| > > > > Something really strange is going on.....
| > > > >
| > > > > What you are now describing is blow by, big blow
by.
| > > > >
| > > > > You cannot have this with 150 psi compression
unless the PCV valve
| is
| > > > > just plain broken or shut off from a bad charcoal
canister.
| > > > >
| > > > > What did your air filter look like? It 'must'
have been just full
| of
| > > > > oil to have the intake with oil pools in it.
| > > > >
| > > > > If it wasn't full of oil, then you do not have
'blow by'.
| > > > >
| > > > > You also 'must' have had one big blue cloud
following you with the
| > > > > amount of oil you describe in the intake, no two
ways about it.
| > (unless
| > > > > it is gas wash)
| > > > >
| > > > > You are aware that a dead charcoal canister will
produce enough blow
| b
| > y
| > > > > to really imitate a blown engine right? It will
soak an air filter
| in
| > a
| > > > > week.
| > > > >
| > > > > I am really almost thinking that someone sold you
a dead FI system.
| I
| > > > > think it was broken and giving them the same fits
and strange
| symptoms
| > > > > you are getting so they unloaded it on you.
| > > > >
| > > > > Gas wash is very strange if you haven't seen it
before. It takes
| very
| > > > > little gas to wash down the dirt and oil and make
a messy slurry
| that
| > > > > almost looks like oil. This can pool in an intake
manifold or into
| a
| > > > > piston.
| > > > >
| > > > > You are describing injectors leaking down and
pooling in the intake
| or
| > > > > 'gas wash'.
| > > > >
| > > > > Good luck Bill!
| > > > >
| > > > > I am out of ideas.
| > > > >
| > > > > Mike
| > > > >
| > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > >
| > > > > > I took the intake manifold to a perfomance shop
today to have the
| > > > injector
| > > > > > in question tested and the mechanic told me it's
highly unlikely
| to
| > be
| > > > > > cylinder wash. He looked at the intake manifold
and saw oil in
| each
| > > > > > manifold "finger" (which I didn't see before)
and when he opened
| the
| > > > > > throttle there was a pool of oil in the there.
When I looked in
| the
| > > > same
| > > > > > place when the intake was on the engine I didn't
see a drop. I
| felt
| > and
| > > > ran
| > > > > > a q-tip inside the pcv valve hose and didn't
come back with any
| oil
| > > > stains.
| > > > > > I put my hand inside the filter hose which
connects to the
| throttle
| > body
| > > > and
| > > > > > I didn't feel any oil there either. Of course,
this was closer to
| > when
| > > > I
| > > > > > started this process and not in the later days.
Could be it got
| > worse
| > > > in
| > > > > > the end or was pooled in the intake and didn't
show up in the
| > throttle
| > > > body.
| > > > > > He told me Blow By was going on and I needed a
new engine.
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Is there anything else that could be going on as
I'm getting ansy
| > about
| > > > > > pulling this piston. Could there be some effect
which is
| affecting
| > only
| > > > #2?
| > > > > > Should I have him test #2 injector anyway and
see what he finds?
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Thanks,
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Bill
| > > > > >
| > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > > > news:403E9B6D.FF814819@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > > > I would 'highly' recommend you get a hold of
the shop and try to
| > find
| > > > > > > out exactly what they did to it and what the
invoices mean.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > I saw a 'generic' rebuilt engine quote.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > They only fix what is messed up on those kind
of quotes....
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Still looks like a gas washed cylinder to me
though...
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Mike
| > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose
to tail in '00
| > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > Looks like my pistons are .40 over. There's
a 40 on top of
| the
| > > > pistons.
| >
| >
|
|
was visibly damaged at the point where the polished journal
met with the rough cast lobe, and subsequently undersized.
If this is a problem, and it caused the rings to break or
fail in some way, fixing the rings alone
is temporary, I'd at least remover the rod cap, and check
that journal. Any problem there will be visible. Somewhere
someone, perhaps many, suggested the rings, sounded pretty
well backed up too. I'd pull that piston and re-ring that
one, and once you see how easy that is, you'll probably do
them all. Make sure that it was not caused by something
else.
FWIW, the cyl walls on mine were absolutely beautiful when I
took it down, I had a terrible slap by the time I did the
real repair, and was anticipating wall damage. I was pretty
shocked. Renewed my faith in that particular motor. I don't
think any one thing is going to lead you to the source of
your situation. But, checking out that piston/rings seems
like it might give you a handle.
"William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
news:c1ocqs$1j5gro$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de...
| Thank you for your time on this response Steve, Fennidh,
all.
|
| A couple of things. I did not change the injectors around
so there was no
| results to indicate whether it was the injector or not.
Also, The cold leak
| down test on #2 was significantly higher than the
following warm engine
| test. Also, you are correct in that I could not detect
any fuel smell in
| the oil (I checked again when my nose was better).
|
| Regarding the Rod theory, I had been hearing some noise on
a cold engine
| which did dissipate as it warmed up. Larie at JeepsRUs
also mentioned
| hearing a noise in the engine when I was there for DRB
diagnostics so this
| is a possibility.
|
| Can someone describe what to look for at the
Rod/Bearing/Crank level if this
| is the problem? Will the bearings be loose when I move it
back and forth?
|
| Thanks,
|
| Bill
|
|
|
| "Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in
message
| news:dMN%b.630182$X%5.347735@pd7tw2no...
| > I don't see it. He says a leak down test showed it with
2 to 3 times the
| > loss as the other cylinders. Cold cranking compression
can be misleading
| it
| > there's enough oil staying on the walls to seal the cyl.
His original
| > complaint was the oil consumtion if I remember
correctly, that's why he
| did
| > the valve seals. No mention of a dead cylinder, which
would have been his
| > first complaint if your gas wash theory was correct. He
would have to
| have
| > that cylinder completely misfiring. I think the only
way he could have
| that
| > problem was if the injector was stuck open, but that
would flood the
| > cylinder and give him his misfire, which he would have
felt and been his
| > first complaint. He did also switch the injectors at
one point if I
| > remember right and the problem should have moved to the
next cylinder. I
| > would look closely to see if there's a vacuum take off
on that runner of
| the
| > intake that could be introducing oil to that cylinder
only. I don't
| recall
| > if this is an automatic and if so wether it uses a
vacuum modulater, but
| > that's the kind of thing that could suck oil into that
cylinder only if
| the
| > take off was on the #2 runner of the intake.
| > My money's still on the rings on that #2 cyl. I've
seen it often
| enough
| > to say that's what they look like.
| > Difficult to do arm chair diagnosis from 3000 miles
away. I would
| have
| > wanted to hear it run, do a dynamic compression test to
determine that
| > cylinder's contribution at running speed, take a close
look at the plugs
| > etcc, but from the looks and sounds of things he's got
way to much oil
| above
| > the piston and it's got to be coming from somewhere.
Even if it were this
| > gas wash, you'd have to have a significant amount of oil
to wash into that
| > mess. Another thing that doesn't ring right about the
"gas wash" as I
| think
| > about it, is that when you have a severely flooded
engine, in this case it
| a
| > severely flooded cylinder, the fuel will run down the
cylinder walls and
| > dilute the oil. The oil would smell strongly of fuel.
| > He's got a significant amount of oil on the wrong
side of the piston.
| > Where did it come from? Two possibilities, below the
piston past the
| rings
| > or above the piston through the intake or valve guides.
He's eliminated
| > valve guides. Process of elimination, look for that
other sources of oil
| > entering the intake. If it can't be found process of
elimination would
| lead
| > to the piston/rings. Another contributer mentions
excessive oil from that
| > rod bearing. A good possibility as well, even good
rings can't control an
| > excess amount, but he should have heard the rod noise,
especially when
| first
| > starting until oil pressure came up.
| > I actually don't see much choice at this point
anyways. From the
| looks
| > of the top of that piston even if the root cause wasn't
the rings they're
| so
| > gummed up now that the piston should be removed, cleaned
and the rings
| > replaced.
| > One other thing to look for on the cylinder walls is
the start of a
| > second ridge below the first. This will sometimes
indicate that the top
| > ring is broken. Careful though, the absence of a second
ridge is not an
| > indication of no problem, just the presence of one is an
indication of a
| > problem.
| > Steve
| > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
| > news:403F7731.FAC269E2@sympatico.ca...
| > > The charcoal canister purges into the PCV system when
the engine is hot
| > > and at speed.
| > >
| > > If the purge valve is blown, it effectively shuts down
the PCV system so
| > > oil blows into the air filter.
| > >
| > > The only test I know is to pinch off the line from the
canister to the
| > > PCV system at idle to see if the idle changes. If the
idle changes, the
| > > canister purge is dead.
| > >
| > > A dead canister will also cause an unstable idle
speed. It will vary up
| > > and down and surge slightly.
| > >
| > > No, a dead canister will not just get one cylinder
'wet'. I also don't
| > > believe a dead canister or blow by of any type can
pool oil in the
| > > bottom of the intake manifold or in the individual
fingers leading to
| > > the cylinders.
| > >
| > > When my air filter filled with oil, it dripped out on
the ground. The
| > > lip of the intake prevents oil from dripping down the
throat of the carb
| > > or TB unless the oil in the air filter is deeper than
1/4" or so and you
| > > have the air filter that sits on top of the carb or
TB.
| > >
| > > I still think gas and bad injectors man.....
| > >
| > > How was the gas mileage on that engine?
| > >
| > > If it was mine, I think I would put the carb back on
and see what
| > > happens before spending a dime on it.
| > >
| > > Mike
| > >
| > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > >
| > > > Mike,
| > > > Is there any way to test a charcoal can detatched
from the jeep?
| > > >
| > > > Would a bad charcoal Can cause the effect like we
see in #2 cylinder?
| > > >
| > > > When I checked the other items (air filter
tube/housing, pcv tube,
| > throttle
| > > > body) I also looked at the air filter. It was dirty
at the bottom but
| > > > nothing that bad. Remember, this air filter is
sprayed with oil so
| the
| > oil
| > > > I sprayed it with accumulated at the bottom. Like
an ounce or so.
| You
| > > > couldn't even get your hands wet with it. Not to
the degree you
| > discribe.
| > > >
| > > > Bill
| > > >
| > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > news:403F5D0B.78D5950F@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > Too bad you are so far away.
| > > > >
| > > > > You need someone that knows engines and isn't just
out to take you
| > > > > money.
| > > > >
| > > > > Something really strange is going on.....
| > > > >
| > > > > What you are now describing is blow by, big blow
by.
| > > > >
| > > > > You cannot have this with 150 psi compression
unless the PCV valve
| is
| > > > > just plain broken or shut off from a bad charcoal
canister.
| > > > >
| > > > > What did your air filter look like? It 'must'
have been just full
| of
| > > > > oil to have the intake with oil pools in it.
| > > > >
| > > > > If it wasn't full of oil, then you do not have
'blow by'.
| > > > >
| > > > > You also 'must' have had one big blue cloud
following you with the
| > > > > amount of oil you describe in the intake, no two
ways about it.
| > (unless
| > > > > it is gas wash)
| > > > >
| > > > > You are aware that a dead charcoal canister will
produce enough blow
| b
| > y
| > > > > to really imitate a blown engine right? It will
soak an air filter
| in
| > a
| > > > > week.
| > > > >
| > > > > I am really almost thinking that someone sold you
a dead FI system.
| I
| > > > > think it was broken and giving them the same fits
and strange
| symptoms
| > > > > you are getting so they unloaded it on you.
| > > > >
| > > > > Gas wash is very strange if you haven't seen it
before. It takes
| very
| > > > > little gas to wash down the dirt and oil and make
a messy slurry
| that
| > > > > almost looks like oil. This can pool in an intake
manifold or into
| a
| > > > > piston.
| > > > >
| > > > > You are describing injectors leaking down and
pooling in the intake
| or
| > > > > 'gas wash'.
| > > > >
| > > > > Good luck Bill!
| > > > >
| > > > > I am out of ideas.
| > > > >
| > > > > Mike
| > > > >
| > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > >
| > > > > > I took the intake manifold to a perfomance shop
today to have the
| > > > injector
| > > > > > in question tested and the mechanic told me it's
highly unlikely
| to
| > be
| > > > > > cylinder wash. He looked at the intake manifold
and saw oil in
| each
| > > > > > manifold "finger" (which I didn't see before)
and when he opened
| the
| > > > > > throttle there was a pool of oil in the there.
When I looked in
| the
| > > > same
| > > > > > place when the intake was on the engine I didn't
see a drop. I
| felt
| > and
| > > > ran
| > > > > > a q-tip inside the pcv valve hose and didn't
come back with any
| oil
| > > > stains.
| > > > > > I put my hand inside the filter hose which
connects to the
| throttle
| > body
| > > > and
| > > > > > I didn't feel any oil there either. Of course,
this was closer to
| > when
| > > > I
| > > > > > started this process and not in the later days.
Could be it got
| > worse
| > > > in
| > > > > > the end or was pooled in the intake and didn't
show up in the
| > throttle
| > > > body.
| > > > > > He told me Blow By was going on and I needed a
new engine.
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Is there anything else that could be going on as
I'm getting ansy
| > about
| > > > > > pulling this piston. Could there be some effect
which is
| affecting
| > only
| > > > #2?
| > > > > > Should I have him test #2 injector anyway and
see what he finds?
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Thanks,
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Bill
| > > > > >
| > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > > > news:403E9B6D.FF814819@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > > > I would 'highly' recommend you get a hold of
the shop and try to
| > find
| > > > > > > out exactly what they did to it and what the
invoices mean.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > I saw a 'generic' rebuilt engine quote.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > They only fix what is messed up on those kind
of quotes....
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Still looks like a gas washed cylinder to me
though...
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Mike
| > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose
to tail in '00
| > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > Looks like my pistons are .40 over. There's
a 40 on top of
| the
| > > > pistons.
| >
| >
|
|
#76
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Discovered Bore
I deleted the pics, sorry, the journal in question on mine
was visibly damaged at the point where the polished journal
met with the rough cast lobe, and subsequently undersized.
If this is a problem, and it caused the rings to break or
fail in some way, fixing the rings alone
is temporary, I'd at least remover the rod cap, and check
that journal. Any problem there will be visible. Somewhere
someone, perhaps many, suggested the rings, sounded pretty
well backed up too. I'd pull that piston and re-ring that
one, and once you see how easy that is, you'll probably do
them all. Make sure that it was not caused by something
else.
FWIW, the cyl walls on mine were absolutely beautiful when I
took it down, I had a terrible slap by the time I did the
real repair, and was anticipating wall damage. I was pretty
shocked. Renewed my faith in that particular motor. I don't
think any one thing is going to lead you to the source of
your situation. But, checking out that piston/rings seems
like it might give you a handle.
"William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
news:c1ocqs$1j5gro$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de...
| Thank you for your time on this response Steve, Fennidh,
all.
|
| A couple of things. I did not change the injectors around
so there was no
| results to indicate whether it was the injector or not.
Also, The cold leak
| down test on #2 was significantly higher than the
following warm engine
| test. Also, you are correct in that I could not detect
any fuel smell in
| the oil (I checked again when my nose was better).
|
| Regarding the Rod theory, I had been hearing some noise on
a cold engine
| which did dissipate as it warmed up. Larie at JeepsRUs
also mentioned
| hearing a noise in the engine when I was there for DRB
diagnostics so this
| is a possibility.
|
| Can someone describe what to look for at the
Rod/Bearing/Crank level if this
| is the problem? Will the bearings be loose when I move it
back and forth?
|
| Thanks,
|
| Bill
|
|
|
| "Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in
message
| news:dMN%b.630182$X%5.347735@pd7tw2no...
| > I don't see it. He says a leak down test showed it with
2 to 3 times the
| > loss as the other cylinders. Cold cranking compression
can be misleading
| it
| > there's enough oil staying on the walls to seal the cyl.
His original
| > complaint was the oil consumtion if I remember
correctly, that's why he
| did
| > the valve seals. No mention of a dead cylinder, which
would have been his
| > first complaint if your gas wash theory was correct. He
would have to
| have
| > that cylinder completely misfiring. I think the only
way he could have
| that
| > problem was if the injector was stuck open, but that
would flood the
| > cylinder and give him his misfire, which he would have
felt and been his
| > first complaint. He did also switch the injectors at
one point if I
| > remember right and the problem should have moved to the
next cylinder. I
| > would look closely to see if there's a vacuum take off
on that runner of
| the
| > intake that could be introducing oil to that cylinder
only. I don't
| recall
| > if this is an automatic and if so wether it uses a
vacuum modulater, but
| > that's the kind of thing that could suck oil into that
cylinder only if
| the
| > take off was on the #2 runner of the intake.
| > My money's still on the rings on that #2 cyl. I've
seen it often
| enough
| > to say that's what they look like.
| > Difficult to do arm chair diagnosis from 3000 miles
away. I would
| have
| > wanted to hear it run, do a dynamic compression test to
determine that
| > cylinder's contribution at running speed, take a close
look at the plugs
| > etcc, but from the looks and sounds of things he's got
way to much oil
| above
| > the piston and it's got to be coming from somewhere.
Even if it were this
| > gas wash, you'd have to have a significant amount of oil
to wash into that
| > mess. Another thing that doesn't ring right about the
"gas wash" as I
| think
| > about it, is that when you have a severely flooded
engine, in this case it
| a
| > severely flooded cylinder, the fuel will run down the
cylinder walls and
| > dilute the oil. The oil would smell strongly of fuel.
| > He's got a significant amount of oil on the wrong
side of the piston.
| > Where did it come from? Two possibilities, below the
piston past the
| rings
| > or above the piston through the intake or valve guides.
He's eliminated
| > valve guides. Process of elimination, look for that
other sources of oil
| > entering the intake. If it can't be found process of
elimination would
| lead
| > to the piston/rings. Another contributer mentions
excessive oil from that
| > rod bearing. A good possibility as well, even good
rings can't control an
| > excess amount, but he should have heard the rod noise,
especially when
| first
| > starting until oil pressure came up.
| > I actually don't see much choice at this point
anyways. From the
| looks
| > of the top of that piston even if the root cause wasn't
the rings they're
| so
| > gummed up now that the piston should be removed, cleaned
and the rings
| > replaced.
| > One other thing to look for on the cylinder walls is
the start of a
| > second ridge below the first. This will sometimes
indicate that the top
| > ring is broken. Careful though, the absence of a second
ridge is not an
| > indication of no problem, just the presence of one is an
indication of a
| > problem.
| > Steve
| > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
| > news:403F7731.FAC269E2@sympatico.ca...
| > > The charcoal canister purges into the PCV system when
the engine is hot
| > > and at speed.
| > >
| > > If the purge valve is blown, it effectively shuts down
the PCV system so
| > > oil blows into the air filter.
| > >
| > > The only test I know is to pinch off the line from the
canister to the
| > > PCV system at idle to see if the idle changes. If the
idle changes, the
| > > canister purge is dead.
| > >
| > > A dead canister will also cause an unstable idle
speed. It will vary up
| > > and down and surge slightly.
| > >
| > > No, a dead canister will not just get one cylinder
'wet'. I also don't
| > > believe a dead canister or blow by of any type can
pool oil in the
| > > bottom of the intake manifold or in the individual
fingers leading to
| > > the cylinders.
| > >
| > > When my air filter filled with oil, it dripped out on
the ground. The
| > > lip of the intake prevents oil from dripping down the
throat of the carb
| > > or TB unless the oil in the air filter is deeper than
1/4" or so and you
| > > have the air filter that sits on top of the carb or
TB.
| > >
| > > I still think gas and bad injectors man.....
| > >
| > > How was the gas mileage on that engine?
| > >
| > > If it was mine, I think I would put the carb back on
and see what
| > > happens before spending a dime on it.
| > >
| > > Mike
| > >
| > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > >
| > > > Mike,
| > > > Is there any way to test a charcoal can detatched
from the jeep?
| > > >
| > > > Would a bad charcoal Can cause the effect like we
see in #2 cylinder?
| > > >
| > > > When I checked the other items (air filter
tube/housing, pcv tube,
| > throttle
| > > > body) I also looked at the air filter. It was dirty
at the bottom but
| > > > nothing that bad. Remember, this air filter is
sprayed with oil so
| the
| > oil
| > > > I sprayed it with accumulated at the bottom. Like
an ounce or so.
| You
| > > > couldn't even get your hands wet with it. Not to
the degree you
| > discribe.
| > > >
| > > > Bill
| > > >
| > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > news:403F5D0B.78D5950F@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > Too bad you are so far away.
| > > > >
| > > > > You need someone that knows engines and isn't just
out to take you
| > > > > money.
| > > > >
| > > > > Something really strange is going on.....
| > > > >
| > > > > What you are now describing is blow by, big blow
by.
| > > > >
| > > > > You cannot have this with 150 psi compression
unless the PCV valve
| is
| > > > > just plain broken or shut off from a bad charcoal
canister.
| > > > >
| > > > > What did your air filter look like? It 'must'
have been just full
| of
| > > > > oil to have the intake with oil pools in it.
| > > > >
| > > > > If it wasn't full of oil, then you do not have
'blow by'.
| > > > >
| > > > > You also 'must' have had one big blue cloud
following you with the
| > > > > amount of oil you describe in the intake, no two
ways about it.
| > (unless
| > > > > it is gas wash)
| > > > >
| > > > > You are aware that a dead charcoal canister will
produce enough blow
| b
| > y
| > > > > to really imitate a blown engine right? It will
soak an air filter
| in
| > a
| > > > > week.
| > > > >
| > > > > I am really almost thinking that someone sold you
a dead FI system.
| I
| > > > > think it was broken and giving them the same fits
and strange
| symptoms
| > > > > you are getting so they unloaded it on you.
| > > > >
| > > > > Gas wash is very strange if you haven't seen it
before. It takes
| very
| > > > > little gas to wash down the dirt and oil and make
a messy slurry
| that
| > > > > almost looks like oil. This can pool in an intake
manifold or into
| a
| > > > > piston.
| > > > >
| > > > > You are describing injectors leaking down and
pooling in the intake
| or
| > > > > 'gas wash'.
| > > > >
| > > > > Good luck Bill!
| > > > >
| > > > > I am out of ideas.
| > > > >
| > > > > Mike
| > > > >
| > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > >
| > > > > > I took the intake manifold to a perfomance shop
today to have the
| > > > injector
| > > > > > in question tested and the mechanic told me it's
highly unlikely
| to
| > be
| > > > > > cylinder wash. He looked at the intake manifold
and saw oil in
| each
| > > > > > manifold "finger" (which I didn't see before)
and when he opened
| the
| > > > > > throttle there was a pool of oil in the there.
When I looked in
| the
| > > > same
| > > > > > place when the intake was on the engine I didn't
see a drop. I
| felt
| > and
| > > > ran
| > > > > > a q-tip inside the pcv valve hose and didn't
come back with any
| oil
| > > > stains.
| > > > > > I put my hand inside the filter hose which
connects to the
| throttle
| > body
| > > > and
| > > > > > I didn't feel any oil there either. Of course,
this was closer to
| > when
| > > > I
| > > > > > started this process and not in the later days.
Could be it got
| > worse
| > > > in
| > > > > > the end or was pooled in the intake and didn't
show up in the
| > throttle
| > > > body.
| > > > > > He told me Blow By was going on and I needed a
new engine.
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Is there anything else that could be going on as
I'm getting ansy
| > about
| > > > > > pulling this piston. Could there be some effect
which is
| affecting
| > only
| > > > #2?
| > > > > > Should I have him test #2 injector anyway and
see what he finds?
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Thanks,
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Bill
| > > > > >
| > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > > > news:403E9B6D.FF814819@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > > > I would 'highly' recommend you get a hold of
the shop and try to
| > find
| > > > > > > out exactly what they did to it and what the
invoices mean.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > I saw a 'generic' rebuilt engine quote.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > They only fix what is messed up on those kind
of quotes....
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Still looks like a gas washed cylinder to me
though...
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Mike
| > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose
to tail in '00
| > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > Looks like my pistons are .40 over. There's
a 40 on top of
| the
| > > > pistons.
| >
| >
|
|
was visibly damaged at the point where the polished journal
met with the rough cast lobe, and subsequently undersized.
If this is a problem, and it caused the rings to break or
fail in some way, fixing the rings alone
is temporary, I'd at least remover the rod cap, and check
that journal. Any problem there will be visible. Somewhere
someone, perhaps many, suggested the rings, sounded pretty
well backed up too. I'd pull that piston and re-ring that
one, and once you see how easy that is, you'll probably do
them all. Make sure that it was not caused by something
else.
FWIW, the cyl walls on mine were absolutely beautiful when I
took it down, I had a terrible slap by the time I did the
real repair, and was anticipating wall damage. I was pretty
shocked. Renewed my faith in that particular motor. I don't
think any one thing is going to lead you to the source of
your situation. But, checking out that piston/rings seems
like it might give you a handle.
"William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
news:c1ocqs$1j5gro$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de...
| Thank you for your time on this response Steve, Fennidh,
all.
|
| A couple of things. I did not change the injectors around
so there was no
| results to indicate whether it was the injector or not.
Also, The cold leak
| down test on #2 was significantly higher than the
following warm engine
| test. Also, you are correct in that I could not detect
any fuel smell in
| the oil (I checked again when my nose was better).
|
| Regarding the Rod theory, I had been hearing some noise on
a cold engine
| which did dissipate as it warmed up. Larie at JeepsRUs
also mentioned
| hearing a noise in the engine when I was there for DRB
diagnostics so this
| is a possibility.
|
| Can someone describe what to look for at the
Rod/Bearing/Crank level if this
| is the problem? Will the bearings be loose when I move it
back and forth?
|
| Thanks,
|
| Bill
|
|
|
| "Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in
message
| news:dMN%b.630182$X%5.347735@pd7tw2no...
| > I don't see it. He says a leak down test showed it with
2 to 3 times the
| > loss as the other cylinders. Cold cranking compression
can be misleading
| it
| > there's enough oil staying on the walls to seal the cyl.
His original
| > complaint was the oil consumtion if I remember
correctly, that's why he
| did
| > the valve seals. No mention of a dead cylinder, which
would have been his
| > first complaint if your gas wash theory was correct. He
would have to
| have
| > that cylinder completely misfiring. I think the only
way he could have
| that
| > problem was if the injector was stuck open, but that
would flood the
| > cylinder and give him his misfire, which he would have
felt and been his
| > first complaint. He did also switch the injectors at
one point if I
| > remember right and the problem should have moved to the
next cylinder. I
| > would look closely to see if there's a vacuum take off
on that runner of
| the
| > intake that could be introducing oil to that cylinder
only. I don't
| recall
| > if this is an automatic and if so wether it uses a
vacuum modulater, but
| > that's the kind of thing that could suck oil into that
cylinder only if
| the
| > take off was on the #2 runner of the intake.
| > My money's still on the rings on that #2 cyl. I've
seen it often
| enough
| > to say that's what they look like.
| > Difficult to do arm chair diagnosis from 3000 miles
away. I would
| have
| > wanted to hear it run, do a dynamic compression test to
determine that
| > cylinder's contribution at running speed, take a close
look at the plugs
| > etcc, but from the looks and sounds of things he's got
way to much oil
| above
| > the piston and it's got to be coming from somewhere.
Even if it were this
| > gas wash, you'd have to have a significant amount of oil
to wash into that
| > mess. Another thing that doesn't ring right about the
"gas wash" as I
| think
| > about it, is that when you have a severely flooded
engine, in this case it
| a
| > severely flooded cylinder, the fuel will run down the
cylinder walls and
| > dilute the oil. The oil would smell strongly of fuel.
| > He's got a significant amount of oil on the wrong
side of the piston.
| > Where did it come from? Two possibilities, below the
piston past the
| rings
| > or above the piston through the intake or valve guides.
He's eliminated
| > valve guides. Process of elimination, look for that
other sources of oil
| > entering the intake. If it can't be found process of
elimination would
| lead
| > to the piston/rings. Another contributer mentions
excessive oil from that
| > rod bearing. A good possibility as well, even good
rings can't control an
| > excess amount, but he should have heard the rod noise,
especially when
| first
| > starting until oil pressure came up.
| > I actually don't see much choice at this point
anyways. From the
| looks
| > of the top of that piston even if the root cause wasn't
the rings they're
| so
| > gummed up now that the piston should be removed, cleaned
and the rings
| > replaced.
| > One other thing to look for on the cylinder walls is
the start of a
| > second ridge below the first. This will sometimes
indicate that the top
| > ring is broken. Careful though, the absence of a second
ridge is not an
| > indication of no problem, just the presence of one is an
indication of a
| > problem.
| > Steve
| > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
| > news:403F7731.FAC269E2@sympatico.ca...
| > > The charcoal canister purges into the PCV system when
the engine is hot
| > > and at speed.
| > >
| > > If the purge valve is blown, it effectively shuts down
the PCV system so
| > > oil blows into the air filter.
| > >
| > > The only test I know is to pinch off the line from the
canister to the
| > > PCV system at idle to see if the idle changes. If the
idle changes, the
| > > canister purge is dead.
| > >
| > > A dead canister will also cause an unstable idle
speed. It will vary up
| > > and down and surge slightly.
| > >
| > > No, a dead canister will not just get one cylinder
'wet'. I also don't
| > > believe a dead canister or blow by of any type can
pool oil in the
| > > bottom of the intake manifold or in the individual
fingers leading to
| > > the cylinders.
| > >
| > > When my air filter filled with oil, it dripped out on
the ground. The
| > > lip of the intake prevents oil from dripping down the
throat of the carb
| > > or TB unless the oil in the air filter is deeper than
1/4" or so and you
| > > have the air filter that sits on top of the carb or
TB.
| > >
| > > I still think gas and bad injectors man.....
| > >
| > > How was the gas mileage on that engine?
| > >
| > > If it was mine, I think I would put the carb back on
and see what
| > > happens before spending a dime on it.
| > >
| > > Mike
| > >
| > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > >
| > > > Mike,
| > > > Is there any way to test a charcoal can detatched
from the jeep?
| > > >
| > > > Would a bad charcoal Can cause the effect like we
see in #2 cylinder?
| > > >
| > > > When I checked the other items (air filter
tube/housing, pcv tube,
| > throttle
| > > > body) I also looked at the air filter. It was dirty
at the bottom but
| > > > nothing that bad. Remember, this air filter is
sprayed with oil so
| the
| > oil
| > > > I sprayed it with accumulated at the bottom. Like
an ounce or so.
| You
| > > > couldn't even get your hands wet with it. Not to
the degree you
| > discribe.
| > > >
| > > > Bill
| > > >
| > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > news:403F5D0B.78D5950F@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > Too bad you are so far away.
| > > > >
| > > > > You need someone that knows engines and isn't just
out to take you
| > > > > money.
| > > > >
| > > > > Something really strange is going on.....
| > > > >
| > > > > What you are now describing is blow by, big blow
by.
| > > > >
| > > > > You cannot have this with 150 psi compression
unless the PCV valve
| is
| > > > > just plain broken or shut off from a bad charcoal
canister.
| > > > >
| > > > > What did your air filter look like? It 'must'
have been just full
| of
| > > > > oil to have the intake with oil pools in it.
| > > > >
| > > > > If it wasn't full of oil, then you do not have
'blow by'.
| > > > >
| > > > > You also 'must' have had one big blue cloud
following you with the
| > > > > amount of oil you describe in the intake, no two
ways about it.
| > (unless
| > > > > it is gas wash)
| > > > >
| > > > > You are aware that a dead charcoal canister will
produce enough blow
| b
| > y
| > > > > to really imitate a blown engine right? It will
soak an air filter
| in
| > a
| > > > > week.
| > > > >
| > > > > I am really almost thinking that someone sold you
a dead FI system.
| I
| > > > > think it was broken and giving them the same fits
and strange
| symptoms
| > > > > you are getting so they unloaded it on you.
| > > > >
| > > > > Gas wash is very strange if you haven't seen it
before. It takes
| very
| > > > > little gas to wash down the dirt and oil and make
a messy slurry
| that
| > > > > almost looks like oil. This can pool in an intake
manifold or into
| a
| > > > > piston.
| > > > >
| > > > > You are describing injectors leaking down and
pooling in the intake
| or
| > > > > 'gas wash'.
| > > > >
| > > > > Good luck Bill!
| > > > >
| > > > > I am out of ideas.
| > > > >
| > > > > Mike
| > > > >
| > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > >
| > > > > > I took the intake manifold to a perfomance shop
today to have the
| > > > injector
| > > > > > in question tested and the mechanic told me it's
highly unlikely
| to
| > be
| > > > > > cylinder wash. He looked at the intake manifold
and saw oil in
| each
| > > > > > manifold "finger" (which I didn't see before)
and when he opened
| the
| > > > > > throttle there was a pool of oil in the there.
When I looked in
| the
| > > > same
| > > > > > place when the intake was on the engine I didn't
see a drop. I
| felt
| > and
| > > > ran
| > > > > > a q-tip inside the pcv valve hose and didn't
come back with any
| oil
| > > > stains.
| > > > > > I put my hand inside the filter hose which
connects to the
| throttle
| > body
| > > > and
| > > > > > I didn't feel any oil there either. Of course,
this was closer to
| > when
| > > > I
| > > > > > started this process and not in the later days.
Could be it got
| > worse
| > > > in
| > > > > > the end or was pooled in the intake and didn't
show up in the
| > throttle
| > > > body.
| > > > > > He told me Blow By was going on and I needed a
new engine.
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Is there anything else that could be going on as
I'm getting ansy
| > about
| > > > > > pulling this piston. Could there be some effect
which is
| affecting
| > only
| > > > #2?
| > > > > > Should I have him test #2 injector anyway and
see what he finds?
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Thanks,
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Bill
| > > > > >
| > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > > > news:403E9B6D.FF814819@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > > > I would 'highly' recommend you get a hold of
the shop and try to
| > find
| > > > > > > out exactly what they did to it and what the
invoices mean.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > I saw a 'generic' rebuilt engine quote.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > They only fix what is messed up on those kind
of quotes....
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Still looks like a gas washed cylinder to me
though...
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Mike
| > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose
to tail in '00
| > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > Looks like my pistons are .40 over. There's
a 40 on top of
| the
| > > > pistons.
| >
| >
|
|
#77
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Discovered Bore
Sorry, as for loose, mine were varying in "looseness" at
tear down. During build, I checked them to compare and they
were much more secure. Make sure the rod does not "come
away" from the journal in any manner, at all. try pushing
one bolt toward the other so to speak, there should not be
any play that way. I am not great at this stuff, but if
there is no damage to the journals, remember that those
bearings come in oversized thickness',
Good luck.
"William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
news:c1ocqs$1j5gro$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de...
| Thank you for your time on this response Steve, Fennidh,
all.
|
| A couple of things. I did not change the injectors around
so there was no
| results to indicate whether it was the injector or not.
Also, The cold leak
| down test on #2 was significantly higher than the
following warm engine
| test. Also, you are correct in that I could not detect
any fuel smell in
| the oil (I checked again when my nose was better).
|
| Regarding the Rod theory, I had been hearing some noise on
a cold engine
| which did dissipate as it warmed up. Larie at JeepsRUs
also mentioned
| hearing a noise in the engine when I was there for DRB
diagnostics so this
| is a possibility.
|
| Can someone describe what to look for at the
Rod/Bearing/Crank level if this
| is the problem? Will the bearings be loose when I move it
back and forth?
|
| Thanks,
|
| Bill
|
|
|
| "Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in
message
| news:dMN%b.630182$X%5.347735@pd7tw2no...
| > I don't see it. He says a leak down test showed it with
2 to 3 times the
| > loss as the other cylinders. Cold cranking compression
can be misleading
| it
| > there's enough oil staying on the walls to seal the cyl.
His original
| > complaint was the oil consumtion if I remember
correctly, that's why he
| did
| > the valve seals. No mention of a dead cylinder, which
would have been his
| > first complaint if your gas wash theory was correct. He
would have to
| have
| > that cylinder completely misfiring. I think the only
way he could have
| that
| > problem was if the injector was stuck open, but that
would flood the
| > cylinder and give him his misfire, which he would have
felt and been his
| > first complaint. He did also switch the injectors at
one point if I
| > remember right and the problem should have moved to the
next cylinder. I
| > would look closely to see if there's a vacuum take off
on that runner of
| the
| > intake that could be introducing oil to that cylinder
only. I don't
| recall
| > if this is an automatic and if so wether it uses a
vacuum modulater, but
| > that's the kind of thing that could suck oil into that
cylinder only if
| the
| > take off was on the #2 runner of the intake.
| > My money's still on the rings on that #2 cyl. I've
seen it often
| enough
| > to say that's what they look like.
| > Difficult to do arm chair diagnosis from 3000 miles
away. I would
| have
| > wanted to hear it run, do a dynamic compression test to
determine that
| > cylinder's contribution at running speed, take a close
look at the plugs
| > etcc, but from the looks and sounds of things he's got
way to much oil
| above
| > the piston and it's got to be coming from somewhere.
Even if it were this
| > gas wash, you'd have to have a significant amount of oil
to wash into that
| > mess. Another thing that doesn't ring right about the
"gas wash" as I
| think
| > about it, is that when you have a severely flooded
engine, in this case it
| a
| > severely flooded cylinder, the fuel will run down the
cylinder walls and
| > dilute the oil. The oil would smell strongly of fuel.
| > He's got a significant amount of oil on the wrong
side of the piston.
| > Where did it come from? Two possibilities, below the
piston past the
| rings
| > or above the piston through the intake or valve guides.
He's eliminated
| > valve guides. Process of elimination, look for that
other sources of oil
| > entering the intake. If it can't be found process of
elimination would
| lead
| > to the piston/rings. Another contributer mentions
excessive oil from that
| > rod bearing. A good possibility as well, even good
rings can't control an
| > excess amount, but he should have heard the rod noise,
especially when
| first
| > starting until oil pressure came up.
| > I actually don't see much choice at this point
anyways. From the
| looks
| > of the top of that piston even if the root cause wasn't
the rings they're
| so
| > gummed up now that the piston should be removed, cleaned
and the rings
| > replaced.
| > One other thing to look for on the cylinder walls is
the start of a
| > second ridge below the first. This will sometimes
indicate that the top
| > ring is broken. Careful though, the absence of a second
ridge is not an
| > indication of no problem, just the presence of one is an
indication of a
| > problem.
| > Steve
| > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
| > news:403F7731.FAC269E2@sympatico.ca...
| > > The charcoal canister purges into the PCV system when
the engine is hot
| > > and at speed.
| > >
| > > If the purge valve is blown, it effectively shuts down
the PCV system so
| > > oil blows into the air filter.
| > >
| > > The only test I know is to pinch off the line from the
canister to the
| > > PCV system at idle to see if the idle changes. If the
idle changes, the
| > > canister purge is dead.
| > >
| > > A dead canister will also cause an unstable idle
speed. It will vary up
| > > and down and surge slightly.
| > >
| > > No, a dead canister will not just get one cylinder
'wet'. I also don't
| > > believe a dead canister or blow by of any type can
pool oil in the
| > > bottom of the intake manifold or in the individual
fingers leading to
| > > the cylinders.
| > >
| > > When my air filter filled with oil, it dripped out on
the ground. The
| > > lip of the intake prevents oil from dripping down the
throat of the carb
| > > or TB unless the oil in the air filter is deeper than
1/4" or so and you
| > > have the air filter that sits on top of the carb or
TB.
| > >
| > > I still think gas and bad injectors man.....
| > >
| > > How was the gas mileage on that engine?
| > >
| > > If it was mine, I think I would put the carb back on
and see what
| > > happens before spending a dime on it.
| > >
| > > Mike
| > >
| > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > >
| > > > Mike,
| > > > Is there any way to test a charcoal can detatched
from the jeep?
| > > >
| > > > Would a bad charcoal Can cause the effect like we
see in #2 cylinder?
| > > >
| > > > When I checked the other items (air filter
tube/housing, pcv tube,
| > throttle
| > > > body) I also looked at the air filter. It was dirty
at the bottom but
| > > > nothing that bad. Remember, this air filter is
sprayed with oil so
| the
| > oil
| > > > I sprayed it with accumulated at the bottom. Like
an ounce or so.
| You
| > > > couldn't even get your hands wet with it. Not to
the degree you
| > discribe.
| > > >
| > > > Bill
| > > >
| > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > news:403F5D0B.78D5950F@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > Too bad you are so far away.
| > > > >
| > > > > You need someone that knows engines and isn't just
out to take you
| > > > > money.
| > > > >
| > > > > Something really strange is going on.....
| > > > >
| > > > > What you are now describing is blow by, big blow
by.
| > > > >
| > > > > You cannot have this with 150 psi compression
unless the PCV valve
| is
| > > > > just plain broken or shut off from a bad charcoal
canister.
| > > > >
| > > > > What did your air filter look like? It 'must'
have been just full
| of
| > > > > oil to have the intake with oil pools in it.
| > > > >
| > > > > If it wasn't full of oil, then you do not have
'blow by'.
| > > > >
| > > > > You also 'must' have had one big blue cloud
following you with the
| > > > > amount of oil you describe in the intake, no two
ways about it.
| > (unless
| > > > > it is gas wash)
| > > > >
| > > > > You are aware that a dead charcoal canister will
produce enough blow
| b
| > y
| > > > > to really imitate a blown engine right? It will
soak an air filter
| in
| > a
| > > > > week.
| > > > >
| > > > > I am really almost thinking that someone sold you
a dead FI system.
| I
| > > > > think it was broken and giving them the same fits
and strange
| symptoms
| > > > > you are getting so they unloaded it on you.
| > > > >
| > > > > Gas wash is very strange if you haven't seen it
before. It takes
| very
| > > > > little gas to wash down the dirt and oil and make
a messy slurry
| that
| > > > > almost looks like oil. This can pool in an intake
manifold or into
| a
| > > > > piston.
| > > > >
| > > > > You are describing injectors leaking down and
pooling in the intake
| or
| > > > > 'gas wash'.
| > > > >
| > > > > Good luck Bill!
| > > > >
| > > > > I am out of ideas.
| > > > >
| > > > > Mike
| > > > >
| > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > >
| > > > > > I took the intake manifold to a perfomance shop
today to have the
| > > > injector
| > > > > > in question tested and the mechanic told me it's
highly unlikely
| to
| > be
| > > > > > cylinder wash. He looked at the intake manifold
and saw oil in
| each
| > > > > > manifold "finger" (which I didn't see before)
and when he opened
| the
| > > > > > throttle there was a pool of oil in the there.
When I looked in
| the
| > > > same
| > > > > > place when the intake was on the engine I didn't
see a drop. I
| felt
| > and
| > > > ran
| > > > > > a q-tip inside the pcv valve hose and didn't
come back with any
| oil
| > > > stains.
| > > > > > I put my hand inside the filter hose which
connects to the
| throttle
| > body
| > > > and
| > > > > > I didn't feel any oil there either. Of course,
this was closer to
| > when
| > > > I
| > > > > > started this process and not in the later days.
Could be it got
| > worse
| > > > in
| > > > > > the end or was pooled in the intake and didn't
show up in the
| > throttle
| > > > body.
| > > > > > He told me Blow By was going on and I needed a
new engine.
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Is there anything else that could be going on as
I'm getting ansy
| > about
| > > > > > pulling this piston. Could there be some effect
which is
| affecting
| > only
| > > > #2?
| > > > > > Should I have him test #2 injector anyway and
see what he finds?
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Thanks,
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Bill
| > > > > >
| > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > > > news:403E9B6D.FF814819@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > > > I would 'highly' recommend you get a hold of
the shop and try to
| > find
| > > > > > > out exactly what they did to it and what the
invoices mean.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > I saw a 'generic' rebuilt engine quote.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > They only fix what is messed up on those kind
of quotes....
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Still looks like a gas washed cylinder to me
though...
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Mike
| > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose
to tail in '00
| > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > Looks like my pistons are .40 over. There's
a 40 on top of
| the
| > > > pistons.
| >
| >
|
|
tear down. During build, I checked them to compare and they
were much more secure. Make sure the rod does not "come
away" from the journal in any manner, at all. try pushing
one bolt toward the other so to speak, there should not be
any play that way. I am not great at this stuff, but if
there is no damage to the journals, remember that those
bearings come in oversized thickness',
Good luck.
"William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
news:c1ocqs$1j5gro$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de...
| Thank you for your time on this response Steve, Fennidh,
all.
|
| A couple of things. I did not change the injectors around
so there was no
| results to indicate whether it was the injector or not.
Also, The cold leak
| down test on #2 was significantly higher than the
following warm engine
| test. Also, you are correct in that I could not detect
any fuel smell in
| the oil (I checked again when my nose was better).
|
| Regarding the Rod theory, I had been hearing some noise on
a cold engine
| which did dissipate as it warmed up. Larie at JeepsRUs
also mentioned
| hearing a noise in the engine when I was there for DRB
diagnostics so this
| is a possibility.
|
| Can someone describe what to look for at the
Rod/Bearing/Crank level if this
| is the problem? Will the bearings be loose when I move it
back and forth?
|
| Thanks,
|
| Bill
|
|
|
| "Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in
message
| news:dMN%b.630182$X%5.347735@pd7tw2no...
| > I don't see it. He says a leak down test showed it with
2 to 3 times the
| > loss as the other cylinders. Cold cranking compression
can be misleading
| it
| > there's enough oil staying on the walls to seal the cyl.
His original
| > complaint was the oil consumtion if I remember
correctly, that's why he
| did
| > the valve seals. No mention of a dead cylinder, which
would have been his
| > first complaint if your gas wash theory was correct. He
would have to
| have
| > that cylinder completely misfiring. I think the only
way he could have
| that
| > problem was if the injector was stuck open, but that
would flood the
| > cylinder and give him his misfire, which he would have
felt and been his
| > first complaint. He did also switch the injectors at
one point if I
| > remember right and the problem should have moved to the
next cylinder. I
| > would look closely to see if there's a vacuum take off
on that runner of
| the
| > intake that could be introducing oil to that cylinder
only. I don't
| recall
| > if this is an automatic and if so wether it uses a
vacuum modulater, but
| > that's the kind of thing that could suck oil into that
cylinder only if
| the
| > take off was on the #2 runner of the intake.
| > My money's still on the rings on that #2 cyl. I've
seen it often
| enough
| > to say that's what they look like.
| > Difficult to do arm chair diagnosis from 3000 miles
away. I would
| have
| > wanted to hear it run, do a dynamic compression test to
determine that
| > cylinder's contribution at running speed, take a close
look at the plugs
| > etcc, but from the looks and sounds of things he's got
way to much oil
| above
| > the piston and it's got to be coming from somewhere.
Even if it were this
| > gas wash, you'd have to have a significant amount of oil
to wash into that
| > mess. Another thing that doesn't ring right about the
"gas wash" as I
| think
| > about it, is that when you have a severely flooded
engine, in this case it
| a
| > severely flooded cylinder, the fuel will run down the
cylinder walls and
| > dilute the oil. The oil would smell strongly of fuel.
| > He's got a significant amount of oil on the wrong
side of the piston.
| > Where did it come from? Two possibilities, below the
piston past the
| rings
| > or above the piston through the intake or valve guides.
He's eliminated
| > valve guides. Process of elimination, look for that
other sources of oil
| > entering the intake. If it can't be found process of
elimination would
| lead
| > to the piston/rings. Another contributer mentions
excessive oil from that
| > rod bearing. A good possibility as well, even good
rings can't control an
| > excess amount, but he should have heard the rod noise,
especially when
| first
| > starting until oil pressure came up.
| > I actually don't see much choice at this point
anyways. From the
| looks
| > of the top of that piston even if the root cause wasn't
the rings they're
| so
| > gummed up now that the piston should be removed, cleaned
and the rings
| > replaced.
| > One other thing to look for on the cylinder walls is
the start of a
| > second ridge below the first. This will sometimes
indicate that the top
| > ring is broken. Careful though, the absence of a second
ridge is not an
| > indication of no problem, just the presence of one is an
indication of a
| > problem.
| > Steve
| > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
| > news:403F7731.FAC269E2@sympatico.ca...
| > > The charcoal canister purges into the PCV system when
the engine is hot
| > > and at speed.
| > >
| > > If the purge valve is blown, it effectively shuts down
the PCV system so
| > > oil blows into the air filter.
| > >
| > > The only test I know is to pinch off the line from the
canister to the
| > > PCV system at idle to see if the idle changes. If the
idle changes, the
| > > canister purge is dead.
| > >
| > > A dead canister will also cause an unstable idle
speed. It will vary up
| > > and down and surge slightly.
| > >
| > > No, a dead canister will not just get one cylinder
'wet'. I also don't
| > > believe a dead canister or blow by of any type can
pool oil in the
| > > bottom of the intake manifold or in the individual
fingers leading to
| > > the cylinders.
| > >
| > > When my air filter filled with oil, it dripped out on
the ground. The
| > > lip of the intake prevents oil from dripping down the
throat of the carb
| > > or TB unless the oil in the air filter is deeper than
1/4" or so and you
| > > have the air filter that sits on top of the carb or
TB.
| > >
| > > I still think gas and bad injectors man.....
| > >
| > > How was the gas mileage on that engine?
| > >
| > > If it was mine, I think I would put the carb back on
and see what
| > > happens before spending a dime on it.
| > >
| > > Mike
| > >
| > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > >
| > > > Mike,
| > > > Is there any way to test a charcoal can detatched
from the jeep?
| > > >
| > > > Would a bad charcoal Can cause the effect like we
see in #2 cylinder?
| > > >
| > > > When I checked the other items (air filter
tube/housing, pcv tube,
| > throttle
| > > > body) I also looked at the air filter. It was dirty
at the bottom but
| > > > nothing that bad. Remember, this air filter is
sprayed with oil so
| the
| > oil
| > > > I sprayed it with accumulated at the bottom. Like
an ounce or so.
| You
| > > > couldn't even get your hands wet with it. Not to
the degree you
| > discribe.
| > > >
| > > > Bill
| > > >
| > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > news:403F5D0B.78D5950F@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > Too bad you are so far away.
| > > > >
| > > > > You need someone that knows engines and isn't just
out to take you
| > > > > money.
| > > > >
| > > > > Something really strange is going on.....
| > > > >
| > > > > What you are now describing is blow by, big blow
by.
| > > > >
| > > > > You cannot have this with 150 psi compression
unless the PCV valve
| is
| > > > > just plain broken or shut off from a bad charcoal
canister.
| > > > >
| > > > > What did your air filter look like? It 'must'
have been just full
| of
| > > > > oil to have the intake with oil pools in it.
| > > > >
| > > > > If it wasn't full of oil, then you do not have
'blow by'.
| > > > >
| > > > > You also 'must' have had one big blue cloud
following you with the
| > > > > amount of oil you describe in the intake, no two
ways about it.
| > (unless
| > > > > it is gas wash)
| > > > >
| > > > > You are aware that a dead charcoal canister will
produce enough blow
| b
| > y
| > > > > to really imitate a blown engine right? It will
soak an air filter
| in
| > a
| > > > > week.
| > > > >
| > > > > I am really almost thinking that someone sold you
a dead FI system.
| I
| > > > > think it was broken and giving them the same fits
and strange
| symptoms
| > > > > you are getting so they unloaded it on you.
| > > > >
| > > > > Gas wash is very strange if you haven't seen it
before. It takes
| very
| > > > > little gas to wash down the dirt and oil and make
a messy slurry
| that
| > > > > almost looks like oil. This can pool in an intake
manifold or into
| a
| > > > > piston.
| > > > >
| > > > > You are describing injectors leaking down and
pooling in the intake
| or
| > > > > 'gas wash'.
| > > > >
| > > > > Good luck Bill!
| > > > >
| > > > > I am out of ideas.
| > > > >
| > > > > Mike
| > > > >
| > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > >
| > > > > > I took the intake manifold to a perfomance shop
today to have the
| > > > injector
| > > > > > in question tested and the mechanic told me it's
highly unlikely
| to
| > be
| > > > > > cylinder wash. He looked at the intake manifold
and saw oil in
| each
| > > > > > manifold "finger" (which I didn't see before)
and when he opened
| the
| > > > > > throttle there was a pool of oil in the there.
When I looked in
| the
| > > > same
| > > > > > place when the intake was on the engine I didn't
see a drop. I
| felt
| > and
| > > > ran
| > > > > > a q-tip inside the pcv valve hose and didn't
come back with any
| oil
| > > > stains.
| > > > > > I put my hand inside the filter hose which
connects to the
| throttle
| > body
| > > > and
| > > > > > I didn't feel any oil there either. Of course,
this was closer to
| > when
| > > > I
| > > > > > started this process and not in the later days.
Could be it got
| > worse
| > > > in
| > > > > > the end or was pooled in the intake and didn't
show up in the
| > throttle
| > > > body.
| > > > > > He told me Blow By was going on and I needed a
new engine.
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Is there anything else that could be going on as
I'm getting ansy
| > about
| > > > > > pulling this piston. Could there be some effect
which is
| affecting
| > only
| > > > #2?
| > > > > > Should I have him test #2 injector anyway and
see what he finds?
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Thanks,
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Bill
| > > > > >
| > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > > > news:403E9B6D.FF814819@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > > > I would 'highly' recommend you get a hold of
the shop and try to
| > find
| > > > > > > out exactly what they did to it and what the
invoices mean.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > I saw a 'generic' rebuilt engine quote.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > They only fix what is messed up on those kind
of quotes....
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Still looks like a gas washed cylinder to me
though...
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Mike
| > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose
to tail in '00
| > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > Looks like my pistons are .40 over. There's
a 40 on top of
| the
| > > > pistons.
| >
| >
|
|
#78
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Discovered Bore
Sorry, as for loose, mine were varying in "looseness" at
tear down. During build, I checked them to compare and they
were much more secure. Make sure the rod does not "come
away" from the journal in any manner, at all. try pushing
one bolt toward the other so to speak, there should not be
any play that way. I am not great at this stuff, but if
there is no damage to the journals, remember that those
bearings come in oversized thickness',
Good luck.
"William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
news:c1ocqs$1j5gro$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de...
| Thank you for your time on this response Steve, Fennidh,
all.
|
| A couple of things. I did not change the injectors around
so there was no
| results to indicate whether it was the injector or not.
Also, The cold leak
| down test on #2 was significantly higher than the
following warm engine
| test. Also, you are correct in that I could not detect
any fuel smell in
| the oil (I checked again when my nose was better).
|
| Regarding the Rod theory, I had been hearing some noise on
a cold engine
| which did dissipate as it warmed up. Larie at JeepsRUs
also mentioned
| hearing a noise in the engine when I was there for DRB
diagnostics so this
| is a possibility.
|
| Can someone describe what to look for at the
Rod/Bearing/Crank level if this
| is the problem? Will the bearings be loose when I move it
back and forth?
|
| Thanks,
|
| Bill
|
|
|
| "Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in
message
| news:dMN%b.630182$X%5.347735@pd7tw2no...
| > I don't see it. He says a leak down test showed it with
2 to 3 times the
| > loss as the other cylinders. Cold cranking compression
can be misleading
| it
| > there's enough oil staying on the walls to seal the cyl.
His original
| > complaint was the oil consumtion if I remember
correctly, that's why he
| did
| > the valve seals. No mention of a dead cylinder, which
would have been his
| > first complaint if your gas wash theory was correct. He
would have to
| have
| > that cylinder completely misfiring. I think the only
way he could have
| that
| > problem was if the injector was stuck open, but that
would flood the
| > cylinder and give him his misfire, which he would have
felt and been his
| > first complaint. He did also switch the injectors at
one point if I
| > remember right and the problem should have moved to the
next cylinder. I
| > would look closely to see if there's a vacuum take off
on that runner of
| the
| > intake that could be introducing oil to that cylinder
only. I don't
| recall
| > if this is an automatic and if so wether it uses a
vacuum modulater, but
| > that's the kind of thing that could suck oil into that
cylinder only if
| the
| > take off was on the #2 runner of the intake.
| > My money's still on the rings on that #2 cyl. I've
seen it often
| enough
| > to say that's what they look like.
| > Difficult to do arm chair diagnosis from 3000 miles
away. I would
| have
| > wanted to hear it run, do a dynamic compression test to
determine that
| > cylinder's contribution at running speed, take a close
look at the plugs
| > etcc, but from the looks and sounds of things he's got
way to much oil
| above
| > the piston and it's got to be coming from somewhere.
Even if it were this
| > gas wash, you'd have to have a significant amount of oil
to wash into that
| > mess. Another thing that doesn't ring right about the
"gas wash" as I
| think
| > about it, is that when you have a severely flooded
engine, in this case it
| a
| > severely flooded cylinder, the fuel will run down the
cylinder walls and
| > dilute the oil. The oil would smell strongly of fuel.
| > He's got a significant amount of oil on the wrong
side of the piston.
| > Where did it come from? Two possibilities, below the
piston past the
| rings
| > or above the piston through the intake or valve guides.
He's eliminated
| > valve guides. Process of elimination, look for that
other sources of oil
| > entering the intake. If it can't be found process of
elimination would
| lead
| > to the piston/rings. Another contributer mentions
excessive oil from that
| > rod bearing. A good possibility as well, even good
rings can't control an
| > excess amount, but he should have heard the rod noise,
especially when
| first
| > starting until oil pressure came up.
| > I actually don't see much choice at this point
anyways. From the
| looks
| > of the top of that piston even if the root cause wasn't
the rings they're
| so
| > gummed up now that the piston should be removed, cleaned
and the rings
| > replaced.
| > One other thing to look for on the cylinder walls is
the start of a
| > second ridge below the first. This will sometimes
indicate that the top
| > ring is broken. Careful though, the absence of a second
ridge is not an
| > indication of no problem, just the presence of one is an
indication of a
| > problem.
| > Steve
| > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
| > news:403F7731.FAC269E2@sympatico.ca...
| > > The charcoal canister purges into the PCV system when
the engine is hot
| > > and at speed.
| > >
| > > If the purge valve is blown, it effectively shuts down
the PCV system so
| > > oil blows into the air filter.
| > >
| > > The only test I know is to pinch off the line from the
canister to the
| > > PCV system at idle to see if the idle changes. If the
idle changes, the
| > > canister purge is dead.
| > >
| > > A dead canister will also cause an unstable idle
speed. It will vary up
| > > and down and surge slightly.
| > >
| > > No, a dead canister will not just get one cylinder
'wet'. I also don't
| > > believe a dead canister or blow by of any type can
pool oil in the
| > > bottom of the intake manifold or in the individual
fingers leading to
| > > the cylinders.
| > >
| > > When my air filter filled with oil, it dripped out on
the ground. The
| > > lip of the intake prevents oil from dripping down the
throat of the carb
| > > or TB unless the oil in the air filter is deeper than
1/4" or so and you
| > > have the air filter that sits on top of the carb or
TB.
| > >
| > > I still think gas and bad injectors man.....
| > >
| > > How was the gas mileage on that engine?
| > >
| > > If it was mine, I think I would put the carb back on
and see what
| > > happens before spending a dime on it.
| > >
| > > Mike
| > >
| > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > >
| > > > Mike,
| > > > Is there any way to test a charcoal can detatched
from the jeep?
| > > >
| > > > Would a bad charcoal Can cause the effect like we
see in #2 cylinder?
| > > >
| > > > When I checked the other items (air filter
tube/housing, pcv tube,
| > throttle
| > > > body) I also looked at the air filter. It was dirty
at the bottom but
| > > > nothing that bad. Remember, this air filter is
sprayed with oil so
| the
| > oil
| > > > I sprayed it with accumulated at the bottom. Like
an ounce or so.
| You
| > > > couldn't even get your hands wet with it. Not to
the degree you
| > discribe.
| > > >
| > > > Bill
| > > >
| > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > news:403F5D0B.78D5950F@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > Too bad you are so far away.
| > > > >
| > > > > You need someone that knows engines and isn't just
out to take you
| > > > > money.
| > > > >
| > > > > Something really strange is going on.....
| > > > >
| > > > > What you are now describing is blow by, big blow
by.
| > > > >
| > > > > You cannot have this with 150 psi compression
unless the PCV valve
| is
| > > > > just plain broken or shut off from a bad charcoal
canister.
| > > > >
| > > > > What did your air filter look like? It 'must'
have been just full
| of
| > > > > oil to have the intake with oil pools in it.
| > > > >
| > > > > If it wasn't full of oil, then you do not have
'blow by'.
| > > > >
| > > > > You also 'must' have had one big blue cloud
following you with the
| > > > > amount of oil you describe in the intake, no two
ways about it.
| > (unless
| > > > > it is gas wash)
| > > > >
| > > > > You are aware that a dead charcoal canister will
produce enough blow
| b
| > y
| > > > > to really imitate a blown engine right? It will
soak an air filter
| in
| > a
| > > > > week.
| > > > >
| > > > > I am really almost thinking that someone sold you
a dead FI system.
| I
| > > > > think it was broken and giving them the same fits
and strange
| symptoms
| > > > > you are getting so they unloaded it on you.
| > > > >
| > > > > Gas wash is very strange if you haven't seen it
before. It takes
| very
| > > > > little gas to wash down the dirt and oil and make
a messy slurry
| that
| > > > > almost looks like oil. This can pool in an intake
manifold or into
| a
| > > > > piston.
| > > > >
| > > > > You are describing injectors leaking down and
pooling in the intake
| or
| > > > > 'gas wash'.
| > > > >
| > > > > Good luck Bill!
| > > > >
| > > > > I am out of ideas.
| > > > >
| > > > > Mike
| > > > >
| > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > >
| > > > > > I took the intake manifold to a perfomance shop
today to have the
| > > > injector
| > > > > > in question tested and the mechanic told me it's
highly unlikely
| to
| > be
| > > > > > cylinder wash. He looked at the intake manifold
and saw oil in
| each
| > > > > > manifold "finger" (which I didn't see before)
and when he opened
| the
| > > > > > throttle there was a pool of oil in the there.
When I looked in
| the
| > > > same
| > > > > > place when the intake was on the engine I didn't
see a drop. I
| felt
| > and
| > > > ran
| > > > > > a q-tip inside the pcv valve hose and didn't
come back with any
| oil
| > > > stains.
| > > > > > I put my hand inside the filter hose which
connects to the
| throttle
| > body
| > > > and
| > > > > > I didn't feel any oil there either. Of course,
this was closer to
| > when
| > > > I
| > > > > > started this process and not in the later days.
Could be it got
| > worse
| > > > in
| > > > > > the end or was pooled in the intake and didn't
show up in the
| > throttle
| > > > body.
| > > > > > He told me Blow By was going on and I needed a
new engine.
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Is there anything else that could be going on as
I'm getting ansy
| > about
| > > > > > pulling this piston. Could there be some effect
which is
| affecting
| > only
| > > > #2?
| > > > > > Should I have him test #2 injector anyway and
see what he finds?
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Thanks,
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Bill
| > > > > >
| > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > > > news:403E9B6D.FF814819@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > > > I would 'highly' recommend you get a hold of
the shop and try to
| > find
| > > > > > > out exactly what they did to it and what the
invoices mean.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > I saw a 'generic' rebuilt engine quote.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > They only fix what is messed up on those kind
of quotes....
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Still looks like a gas washed cylinder to me
though...
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Mike
| > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose
to tail in '00
| > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > Looks like my pistons are .40 over. There's
a 40 on top of
| the
| > > > pistons.
| >
| >
|
|
tear down. During build, I checked them to compare and they
were much more secure. Make sure the rod does not "come
away" from the journal in any manner, at all. try pushing
one bolt toward the other so to speak, there should not be
any play that way. I am not great at this stuff, but if
there is no damage to the journals, remember that those
bearings come in oversized thickness',
Good luck.
"William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
news:c1ocqs$1j5gro$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de...
| Thank you for your time on this response Steve, Fennidh,
all.
|
| A couple of things. I did not change the injectors around
so there was no
| results to indicate whether it was the injector or not.
Also, The cold leak
| down test on #2 was significantly higher than the
following warm engine
| test. Also, you are correct in that I could not detect
any fuel smell in
| the oil (I checked again when my nose was better).
|
| Regarding the Rod theory, I had been hearing some noise on
a cold engine
| which did dissipate as it warmed up. Larie at JeepsRUs
also mentioned
| hearing a noise in the engine when I was there for DRB
diagnostics so this
| is a possibility.
|
| Can someone describe what to look for at the
Rod/Bearing/Crank level if this
| is the problem? Will the bearings be loose when I move it
back and forth?
|
| Thanks,
|
| Bill
|
|
|
| "Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in
message
| news:dMN%b.630182$X%5.347735@pd7tw2no...
| > I don't see it. He says a leak down test showed it with
2 to 3 times the
| > loss as the other cylinders. Cold cranking compression
can be misleading
| it
| > there's enough oil staying on the walls to seal the cyl.
His original
| > complaint was the oil consumtion if I remember
correctly, that's why he
| did
| > the valve seals. No mention of a dead cylinder, which
would have been his
| > first complaint if your gas wash theory was correct. He
would have to
| have
| > that cylinder completely misfiring. I think the only
way he could have
| that
| > problem was if the injector was stuck open, but that
would flood the
| > cylinder and give him his misfire, which he would have
felt and been his
| > first complaint. He did also switch the injectors at
one point if I
| > remember right and the problem should have moved to the
next cylinder. I
| > would look closely to see if there's a vacuum take off
on that runner of
| the
| > intake that could be introducing oil to that cylinder
only. I don't
| recall
| > if this is an automatic and if so wether it uses a
vacuum modulater, but
| > that's the kind of thing that could suck oil into that
cylinder only if
| the
| > take off was on the #2 runner of the intake.
| > My money's still on the rings on that #2 cyl. I've
seen it often
| enough
| > to say that's what they look like.
| > Difficult to do arm chair diagnosis from 3000 miles
away. I would
| have
| > wanted to hear it run, do a dynamic compression test to
determine that
| > cylinder's contribution at running speed, take a close
look at the plugs
| > etcc, but from the looks and sounds of things he's got
way to much oil
| above
| > the piston and it's got to be coming from somewhere.
Even if it were this
| > gas wash, you'd have to have a significant amount of oil
to wash into that
| > mess. Another thing that doesn't ring right about the
"gas wash" as I
| think
| > about it, is that when you have a severely flooded
engine, in this case it
| a
| > severely flooded cylinder, the fuel will run down the
cylinder walls and
| > dilute the oil. The oil would smell strongly of fuel.
| > He's got a significant amount of oil on the wrong
side of the piston.
| > Where did it come from? Two possibilities, below the
piston past the
| rings
| > or above the piston through the intake or valve guides.
He's eliminated
| > valve guides. Process of elimination, look for that
other sources of oil
| > entering the intake. If it can't be found process of
elimination would
| lead
| > to the piston/rings. Another contributer mentions
excessive oil from that
| > rod bearing. A good possibility as well, even good
rings can't control an
| > excess amount, but he should have heard the rod noise,
especially when
| first
| > starting until oil pressure came up.
| > I actually don't see much choice at this point
anyways. From the
| looks
| > of the top of that piston even if the root cause wasn't
the rings they're
| so
| > gummed up now that the piston should be removed, cleaned
and the rings
| > replaced.
| > One other thing to look for on the cylinder walls is
the start of a
| > second ridge below the first. This will sometimes
indicate that the top
| > ring is broken. Careful though, the absence of a second
ridge is not an
| > indication of no problem, just the presence of one is an
indication of a
| > problem.
| > Steve
| > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
| > news:403F7731.FAC269E2@sympatico.ca...
| > > The charcoal canister purges into the PCV system when
the engine is hot
| > > and at speed.
| > >
| > > If the purge valve is blown, it effectively shuts down
the PCV system so
| > > oil blows into the air filter.
| > >
| > > The only test I know is to pinch off the line from the
canister to the
| > > PCV system at idle to see if the idle changes. If the
idle changes, the
| > > canister purge is dead.
| > >
| > > A dead canister will also cause an unstable idle
speed. It will vary up
| > > and down and surge slightly.
| > >
| > > No, a dead canister will not just get one cylinder
'wet'. I also don't
| > > believe a dead canister or blow by of any type can
pool oil in the
| > > bottom of the intake manifold or in the individual
fingers leading to
| > > the cylinders.
| > >
| > > When my air filter filled with oil, it dripped out on
the ground. The
| > > lip of the intake prevents oil from dripping down the
throat of the carb
| > > or TB unless the oil in the air filter is deeper than
1/4" or so and you
| > > have the air filter that sits on top of the carb or
TB.
| > >
| > > I still think gas and bad injectors man.....
| > >
| > > How was the gas mileage on that engine?
| > >
| > > If it was mine, I think I would put the carb back on
and see what
| > > happens before spending a dime on it.
| > >
| > > Mike
| > >
| > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > >
| > > > Mike,
| > > > Is there any way to test a charcoal can detatched
from the jeep?
| > > >
| > > > Would a bad charcoal Can cause the effect like we
see in #2 cylinder?
| > > >
| > > > When I checked the other items (air filter
tube/housing, pcv tube,
| > throttle
| > > > body) I also looked at the air filter. It was dirty
at the bottom but
| > > > nothing that bad. Remember, this air filter is
sprayed with oil so
| the
| > oil
| > > > I sprayed it with accumulated at the bottom. Like
an ounce or so.
| You
| > > > couldn't even get your hands wet with it. Not to
the degree you
| > discribe.
| > > >
| > > > Bill
| > > >
| > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > news:403F5D0B.78D5950F@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > Too bad you are so far away.
| > > > >
| > > > > You need someone that knows engines and isn't just
out to take you
| > > > > money.
| > > > >
| > > > > Something really strange is going on.....
| > > > >
| > > > > What you are now describing is blow by, big blow
by.
| > > > >
| > > > > You cannot have this with 150 psi compression
unless the PCV valve
| is
| > > > > just plain broken or shut off from a bad charcoal
canister.
| > > > >
| > > > > What did your air filter look like? It 'must'
have been just full
| of
| > > > > oil to have the intake with oil pools in it.
| > > > >
| > > > > If it wasn't full of oil, then you do not have
'blow by'.
| > > > >
| > > > > You also 'must' have had one big blue cloud
following you with the
| > > > > amount of oil you describe in the intake, no two
ways about it.
| > (unless
| > > > > it is gas wash)
| > > > >
| > > > > You are aware that a dead charcoal canister will
produce enough blow
| b
| > y
| > > > > to really imitate a blown engine right? It will
soak an air filter
| in
| > a
| > > > > week.
| > > > >
| > > > > I am really almost thinking that someone sold you
a dead FI system.
| I
| > > > > think it was broken and giving them the same fits
and strange
| symptoms
| > > > > you are getting so they unloaded it on you.
| > > > >
| > > > > Gas wash is very strange if you haven't seen it
before. It takes
| very
| > > > > little gas to wash down the dirt and oil and make
a messy slurry
| that
| > > > > almost looks like oil. This can pool in an intake
manifold or into
| a
| > > > > piston.
| > > > >
| > > > > You are describing injectors leaking down and
pooling in the intake
| or
| > > > > 'gas wash'.
| > > > >
| > > > > Good luck Bill!
| > > > >
| > > > > I am out of ideas.
| > > > >
| > > > > Mike
| > > > >
| > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > >
| > > > > > I took the intake manifold to a perfomance shop
today to have the
| > > > injector
| > > > > > in question tested and the mechanic told me it's
highly unlikely
| to
| > be
| > > > > > cylinder wash. He looked at the intake manifold
and saw oil in
| each
| > > > > > manifold "finger" (which I didn't see before)
and when he opened
| the
| > > > > > throttle there was a pool of oil in the there.
When I looked in
| the
| > > > same
| > > > > > place when the intake was on the engine I didn't
see a drop. I
| felt
| > and
| > > > ran
| > > > > > a q-tip inside the pcv valve hose and didn't
come back with any
| oil
| > > > stains.
| > > > > > I put my hand inside the filter hose which
connects to the
| throttle
| > body
| > > > and
| > > > > > I didn't feel any oil there either. Of course,
this was closer to
| > when
| > > > I
| > > > > > started this process and not in the later days.
Could be it got
| > worse
| > > > in
| > > > > > the end or was pooled in the intake and didn't
show up in the
| > throttle
| > > > body.
| > > > > > He told me Blow By was going on and I needed a
new engine.
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Is there anything else that could be going on as
I'm getting ansy
| > about
| > > > > > pulling this piston. Could there be some effect
which is
| affecting
| > only
| > > > #2?
| > > > > > Should I have him test #2 injector anyway and
see what he finds?
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Thanks,
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Bill
| > > > > >
| > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > > > news:403E9B6D.FF814819@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > > > I would 'highly' recommend you get a hold of
the shop and try to
| > find
| > > > > > > out exactly what they did to it and what the
invoices mean.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > I saw a 'generic' rebuilt engine quote.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > They only fix what is messed up on those kind
of quotes....
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Still looks like a gas washed cylinder to me
though...
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Mike
| > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose
to tail in '00
| > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > Looks like my pistons are .40 over. There's
a 40 on top of
| the
| > > > pistons.
| >
| >
|
|
#79
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Discovered Bore
Sorry, as for loose, mine were varying in "looseness" at
tear down. During build, I checked them to compare and they
were much more secure. Make sure the rod does not "come
away" from the journal in any manner, at all. try pushing
one bolt toward the other so to speak, there should not be
any play that way. I am not great at this stuff, but if
there is no damage to the journals, remember that those
bearings come in oversized thickness',
Good luck.
"William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
news:c1ocqs$1j5gro$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de...
| Thank you for your time on this response Steve, Fennidh,
all.
|
| A couple of things. I did not change the injectors around
so there was no
| results to indicate whether it was the injector or not.
Also, The cold leak
| down test on #2 was significantly higher than the
following warm engine
| test. Also, you are correct in that I could not detect
any fuel smell in
| the oil (I checked again when my nose was better).
|
| Regarding the Rod theory, I had been hearing some noise on
a cold engine
| which did dissipate as it warmed up. Larie at JeepsRUs
also mentioned
| hearing a noise in the engine when I was there for DRB
diagnostics so this
| is a possibility.
|
| Can someone describe what to look for at the
Rod/Bearing/Crank level if this
| is the problem? Will the bearings be loose when I move it
back and forth?
|
| Thanks,
|
| Bill
|
|
|
| "Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in
message
| news:dMN%b.630182$X%5.347735@pd7tw2no...
| > I don't see it. He says a leak down test showed it with
2 to 3 times the
| > loss as the other cylinders. Cold cranking compression
can be misleading
| it
| > there's enough oil staying on the walls to seal the cyl.
His original
| > complaint was the oil consumtion if I remember
correctly, that's why he
| did
| > the valve seals. No mention of a dead cylinder, which
would have been his
| > first complaint if your gas wash theory was correct. He
would have to
| have
| > that cylinder completely misfiring. I think the only
way he could have
| that
| > problem was if the injector was stuck open, but that
would flood the
| > cylinder and give him his misfire, which he would have
felt and been his
| > first complaint. He did also switch the injectors at
one point if I
| > remember right and the problem should have moved to the
next cylinder. I
| > would look closely to see if there's a vacuum take off
on that runner of
| the
| > intake that could be introducing oil to that cylinder
only. I don't
| recall
| > if this is an automatic and if so wether it uses a
vacuum modulater, but
| > that's the kind of thing that could suck oil into that
cylinder only if
| the
| > take off was on the #2 runner of the intake.
| > My money's still on the rings on that #2 cyl. I've
seen it often
| enough
| > to say that's what they look like.
| > Difficult to do arm chair diagnosis from 3000 miles
away. I would
| have
| > wanted to hear it run, do a dynamic compression test to
determine that
| > cylinder's contribution at running speed, take a close
look at the plugs
| > etcc, but from the looks and sounds of things he's got
way to much oil
| above
| > the piston and it's got to be coming from somewhere.
Even if it were this
| > gas wash, you'd have to have a significant amount of oil
to wash into that
| > mess. Another thing that doesn't ring right about the
"gas wash" as I
| think
| > about it, is that when you have a severely flooded
engine, in this case it
| a
| > severely flooded cylinder, the fuel will run down the
cylinder walls and
| > dilute the oil. The oil would smell strongly of fuel.
| > He's got a significant amount of oil on the wrong
side of the piston.
| > Where did it come from? Two possibilities, below the
piston past the
| rings
| > or above the piston through the intake or valve guides.
He's eliminated
| > valve guides. Process of elimination, look for that
other sources of oil
| > entering the intake. If it can't be found process of
elimination would
| lead
| > to the piston/rings. Another contributer mentions
excessive oil from that
| > rod bearing. A good possibility as well, even good
rings can't control an
| > excess amount, but he should have heard the rod noise,
especially when
| first
| > starting until oil pressure came up.
| > I actually don't see much choice at this point
anyways. From the
| looks
| > of the top of that piston even if the root cause wasn't
the rings they're
| so
| > gummed up now that the piston should be removed, cleaned
and the rings
| > replaced.
| > One other thing to look for on the cylinder walls is
the start of a
| > second ridge below the first. This will sometimes
indicate that the top
| > ring is broken. Careful though, the absence of a second
ridge is not an
| > indication of no problem, just the presence of one is an
indication of a
| > problem.
| > Steve
| > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
| > news:403F7731.FAC269E2@sympatico.ca...
| > > The charcoal canister purges into the PCV system when
the engine is hot
| > > and at speed.
| > >
| > > If the purge valve is blown, it effectively shuts down
the PCV system so
| > > oil blows into the air filter.
| > >
| > > The only test I know is to pinch off the line from the
canister to the
| > > PCV system at idle to see if the idle changes. If the
idle changes, the
| > > canister purge is dead.
| > >
| > > A dead canister will also cause an unstable idle
speed. It will vary up
| > > and down and surge slightly.
| > >
| > > No, a dead canister will not just get one cylinder
'wet'. I also don't
| > > believe a dead canister or blow by of any type can
pool oil in the
| > > bottom of the intake manifold or in the individual
fingers leading to
| > > the cylinders.
| > >
| > > When my air filter filled with oil, it dripped out on
the ground. The
| > > lip of the intake prevents oil from dripping down the
throat of the carb
| > > or TB unless the oil in the air filter is deeper than
1/4" or so and you
| > > have the air filter that sits on top of the carb or
TB.
| > >
| > > I still think gas and bad injectors man.....
| > >
| > > How was the gas mileage on that engine?
| > >
| > > If it was mine, I think I would put the carb back on
and see what
| > > happens before spending a dime on it.
| > >
| > > Mike
| > >
| > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > >
| > > > Mike,
| > > > Is there any way to test a charcoal can detatched
from the jeep?
| > > >
| > > > Would a bad charcoal Can cause the effect like we
see in #2 cylinder?
| > > >
| > > > When I checked the other items (air filter
tube/housing, pcv tube,
| > throttle
| > > > body) I also looked at the air filter. It was dirty
at the bottom but
| > > > nothing that bad. Remember, this air filter is
sprayed with oil so
| the
| > oil
| > > > I sprayed it with accumulated at the bottom. Like
an ounce or so.
| You
| > > > couldn't even get your hands wet with it. Not to
the degree you
| > discribe.
| > > >
| > > > Bill
| > > >
| > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > news:403F5D0B.78D5950F@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > Too bad you are so far away.
| > > > >
| > > > > You need someone that knows engines and isn't just
out to take you
| > > > > money.
| > > > >
| > > > > Something really strange is going on.....
| > > > >
| > > > > What you are now describing is blow by, big blow
by.
| > > > >
| > > > > You cannot have this with 150 psi compression
unless the PCV valve
| is
| > > > > just plain broken or shut off from a bad charcoal
canister.
| > > > >
| > > > > What did your air filter look like? It 'must'
have been just full
| of
| > > > > oil to have the intake with oil pools in it.
| > > > >
| > > > > If it wasn't full of oil, then you do not have
'blow by'.
| > > > >
| > > > > You also 'must' have had one big blue cloud
following you with the
| > > > > amount of oil you describe in the intake, no two
ways about it.
| > (unless
| > > > > it is gas wash)
| > > > >
| > > > > You are aware that a dead charcoal canister will
produce enough blow
| b
| > y
| > > > > to really imitate a blown engine right? It will
soak an air filter
| in
| > a
| > > > > week.
| > > > >
| > > > > I am really almost thinking that someone sold you
a dead FI system.
| I
| > > > > think it was broken and giving them the same fits
and strange
| symptoms
| > > > > you are getting so they unloaded it on you.
| > > > >
| > > > > Gas wash is very strange if you haven't seen it
before. It takes
| very
| > > > > little gas to wash down the dirt and oil and make
a messy slurry
| that
| > > > > almost looks like oil. This can pool in an intake
manifold or into
| a
| > > > > piston.
| > > > >
| > > > > You are describing injectors leaking down and
pooling in the intake
| or
| > > > > 'gas wash'.
| > > > >
| > > > > Good luck Bill!
| > > > >
| > > > > I am out of ideas.
| > > > >
| > > > > Mike
| > > > >
| > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > >
| > > > > > I took the intake manifold to a perfomance shop
today to have the
| > > > injector
| > > > > > in question tested and the mechanic told me it's
highly unlikely
| to
| > be
| > > > > > cylinder wash. He looked at the intake manifold
and saw oil in
| each
| > > > > > manifold "finger" (which I didn't see before)
and when he opened
| the
| > > > > > throttle there was a pool of oil in the there.
When I looked in
| the
| > > > same
| > > > > > place when the intake was on the engine I didn't
see a drop. I
| felt
| > and
| > > > ran
| > > > > > a q-tip inside the pcv valve hose and didn't
come back with any
| oil
| > > > stains.
| > > > > > I put my hand inside the filter hose which
connects to the
| throttle
| > body
| > > > and
| > > > > > I didn't feel any oil there either. Of course,
this was closer to
| > when
| > > > I
| > > > > > started this process and not in the later days.
Could be it got
| > worse
| > > > in
| > > > > > the end or was pooled in the intake and didn't
show up in the
| > throttle
| > > > body.
| > > > > > He told me Blow By was going on and I needed a
new engine.
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Is there anything else that could be going on as
I'm getting ansy
| > about
| > > > > > pulling this piston. Could there be some effect
which is
| affecting
| > only
| > > > #2?
| > > > > > Should I have him test #2 injector anyway and
see what he finds?
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Thanks,
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Bill
| > > > > >
| > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > > > news:403E9B6D.FF814819@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > > > I would 'highly' recommend you get a hold of
the shop and try to
| > find
| > > > > > > out exactly what they did to it and what the
invoices mean.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > I saw a 'generic' rebuilt engine quote.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > They only fix what is messed up on those kind
of quotes....
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Still looks like a gas washed cylinder to me
though...
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Mike
| > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose
to tail in '00
| > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > Looks like my pistons are .40 over. There's
a 40 on top of
| the
| > > > pistons.
| >
| >
|
|
tear down. During build, I checked them to compare and they
were much more secure. Make sure the rod does not "come
away" from the journal in any manner, at all. try pushing
one bolt toward the other so to speak, there should not be
any play that way. I am not great at this stuff, but if
there is no damage to the journals, remember that those
bearings come in oversized thickness',
Good luck.
"William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
news:c1ocqs$1j5gro$1@ID-193866.news.uni-berlin.de...
| Thank you for your time on this response Steve, Fennidh,
all.
|
| A couple of things. I did not change the injectors around
so there was no
| results to indicate whether it was the injector or not.
Also, The cold leak
| down test on #2 was significantly higher than the
following warm engine
| test. Also, you are correct in that I could not detect
any fuel smell in
| the oil (I checked again when my nose was better).
|
| Regarding the Rod theory, I had been hearing some noise on
a cold engine
| which did dissipate as it warmed up. Larie at JeepsRUs
also mentioned
| hearing a noise in the engine when I was there for DRB
diagnostics so this
| is a possibility.
|
| Can someone describe what to look for at the
Rod/Bearing/Crank level if this
| is the problem? Will the bearings be loose when I move it
back and forth?
|
| Thanks,
|
| Bill
|
|
|
| "Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in
message
| news:dMN%b.630182$X%5.347735@pd7tw2no...
| > I don't see it. He says a leak down test showed it with
2 to 3 times the
| > loss as the other cylinders. Cold cranking compression
can be misleading
| it
| > there's enough oil staying on the walls to seal the cyl.
His original
| > complaint was the oil consumtion if I remember
correctly, that's why he
| did
| > the valve seals. No mention of a dead cylinder, which
would have been his
| > first complaint if your gas wash theory was correct. He
would have to
| have
| > that cylinder completely misfiring. I think the only
way he could have
| that
| > problem was if the injector was stuck open, but that
would flood the
| > cylinder and give him his misfire, which he would have
felt and been his
| > first complaint. He did also switch the injectors at
one point if I
| > remember right and the problem should have moved to the
next cylinder. I
| > would look closely to see if there's a vacuum take off
on that runner of
| the
| > intake that could be introducing oil to that cylinder
only. I don't
| recall
| > if this is an automatic and if so wether it uses a
vacuum modulater, but
| > that's the kind of thing that could suck oil into that
cylinder only if
| the
| > take off was on the #2 runner of the intake.
| > My money's still on the rings on that #2 cyl. I've
seen it often
| enough
| > to say that's what they look like.
| > Difficult to do arm chair diagnosis from 3000 miles
away. I would
| have
| > wanted to hear it run, do a dynamic compression test to
determine that
| > cylinder's contribution at running speed, take a close
look at the plugs
| > etcc, but from the looks and sounds of things he's got
way to much oil
| above
| > the piston and it's got to be coming from somewhere.
Even if it were this
| > gas wash, you'd have to have a significant amount of oil
to wash into that
| > mess. Another thing that doesn't ring right about the
"gas wash" as I
| think
| > about it, is that when you have a severely flooded
engine, in this case it
| a
| > severely flooded cylinder, the fuel will run down the
cylinder walls and
| > dilute the oil. The oil would smell strongly of fuel.
| > He's got a significant amount of oil on the wrong
side of the piston.
| > Where did it come from? Two possibilities, below the
piston past the
| rings
| > or above the piston through the intake or valve guides.
He's eliminated
| > valve guides. Process of elimination, look for that
other sources of oil
| > entering the intake. If it can't be found process of
elimination would
| lead
| > to the piston/rings. Another contributer mentions
excessive oil from that
| > rod bearing. A good possibility as well, even good
rings can't control an
| > excess amount, but he should have heard the rod noise,
especially when
| first
| > starting until oil pressure came up.
| > I actually don't see much choice at this point
anyways. From the
| looks
| > of the top of that piston even if the root cause wasn't
the rings they're
| so
| > gummed up now that the piston should be removed, cleaned
and the rings
| > replaced.
| > One other thing to look for on the cylinder walls is
the start of a
| > second ridge below the first. This will sometimes
indicate that the top
| > ring is broken. Careful though, the absence of a second
ridge is not an
| > indication of no problem, just the presence of one is an
indication of a
| > problem.
| > Steve
| > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
| > news:403F7731.FAC269E2@sympatico.ca...
| > > The charcoal canister purges into the PCV system when
the engine is hot
| > > and at speed.
| > >
| > > If the purge valve is blown, it effectively shuts down
the PCV system so
| > > oil blows into the air filter.
| > >
| > > The only test I know is to pinch off the line from the
canister to the
| > > PCV system at idle to see if the idle changes. If the
idle changes, the
| > > canister purge is dead.
| > >
| > > A dead canister will also cause an unstable idle
speed. It will vary up
| > > and down and surge slightly.
| > >
| > > No, a dead canister will not just get one cylinder
'wet'. I also don't
| > > believe a dead canister or blow by of any type can
pool oil in the
| > > bottom of the intake manifold or in the individual
fingers leading to
| > > the cylinders.
| > >
| > > When my air filter filled with oil, it dripped out on
the ground. The
| > > lip of the intake prevents oil from dripping down the
throat of the carb
| > > or TB unless the oil in the air filter is deeper than
1/4" or so and you
| > > have the air filter that sits on top of the carb or
TB.
| > >
| > > I still think gas and bad injectors man.....
| > >
| > > How was the gas mileage on that engine?
| > >
| > > If it was mine, I think I would put the carb back on
and see what
| > > happens before spending a dime on it.
| > >
| > > Mike
| > >
| > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > >
| > > > Mike,
| > > > Is there any way to test a charcoal can detatched
from the jeep?
| > > >
| > > > Would a bad charcoal Can cause the effect like we
see in #2 cylinder?
| > > >
| > > > When I checked the other items (air filter
tube/housing, pcv tube,
| > throttle
| > > > body) I also looked at the air filter. It was dirty
at the bottom but
| > > > nothing that bad. Remember, this air filter is
sprayed with oil so
| the
| > oil
| > > > I sprayed it with accumulated at the bottom. Like
an ounce or so.
| You
| > > > couldn't even get your hands wet with it. Not to
the degree you
| > discribe.
| > > >
| > > > Bill
| > > >
| > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > news:403F5D0B.78D5950F@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > Too bad you are so far away.
| > > > >
| > > > > You need someone that knows engines and isn't just
out to take you
| > > > > money.
| > > > >
| > > > > Something really strange is going on.....
| > > > >
| > > > > What you are now describing is blow by, big blow
by.
| > > > >
| > > > > You cannot have this with 150 psi compression
unless the PCV valve
| is
| > > > > just plain broken or shut off from a bad charcoal
canister.
| > > > >
| > > > > What did your air filter look like? It 'must'
have been just full
| of
| > > > > oil to have the intake with oil pools in it.
| > > > >
| > > > > If it wasn't full of oil, then you do not have
'blow by'.
| > > > >
| > > > > You also 'must' have had one big blue cloud
following you with the
| > > > > amount of oil you describe in the intake, no two
ways about it.
| > (unless
| > > > > it is gas wash)
| > > > >
| > > > > You are aware that a dead charcoal canister will
produce enough blow
| b
| > y
| > > > > to really imitate a blown engine right? It will
soak an air filter
| in
| > a
| > > > > week.
| > > > >
| > > > > I am really almost thinking that someone sold you
a dead FI system.
| I
| > > > > think it was broken and giving them the same fits
and strange
| symptoms
| > > > > you are getting so they unloaded it on you.
| > > > >
| > > > > Gas wash is very strange if you haven't seen it
before. It takes
| very
| > > > > little gas to wash down the dirt and oil and make
a messy slurry
| that
| > > > > almost looks like oil. This can pool in an intake
manifold or into
| a
| > > > > piston.
| > > > >
| > > > > You are describing injectors leaking down and
pooling in the intake
| or
| > > > > 'gas wash'.
| > > > >
| > > > > Good luck Bill!
| > > > >
| > > > > I am out of ideas.
| > > > >
| > > > > Mike
| > > > >
| > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > >
| > > > > > I took the intake manifold to a perfomance shop
today to have the
| > > > injector
| > > > > > in question tested and the mechanic told me it's
highly unlikely
| to
| > be
| > > > > > cylinder wash. He looked at the intake manifold
and saw oil in
| each
| > > > > > manifold "finger" (which I didn't see before)
and when he opened
| the
| > > > > > throttle there was a pool of oil in the there.
When I looked in
| the
| > > > same
| > > > > > place when the intake was on the engine I didn't
see a drop. I
| felt
| > and
| > > > ran
| > > > > > a q-tip inside the pcv valve hose and didn't
come back with any
| oil
| > > > stains.
| > > > > > I put my hand inside the filter hose which
connects to the
| throttle
| > body
| > > > and
| > > > > > I didn't feel any oil there either. Of course,
this was closer to
| > when
| > > > I
| > > > > > started this process and not in the later days.
Could be it got
| > worse
| > > > in
| > > > > > the end or was pooled in the intake and didn't
show up in the
| > throttle
| > > > body.
| > > > > > He told me Blow By was going on and I needed a
new engine.
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Is there anything else that could be going on as
I'm getting ansy
| > about
| > > > > > pulling this piston. Could there be some effect
which is
| affecting
| > only
| > > > #2?
| > > > > > Should I have him test #2 injector anyway and
see what he finds?
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Thanks,
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Bill
| > > > > >
| > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in
message
| > > > > > news:403E9B6D.FF814819@sympatico.ca...
| > > > > > > I would 'highly' recommend you get a hold of
the shop and try to
| > find
| > > > > > > out exactly what they did to it and what the
invoices mean.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > I saw a 'generic' rebuilt engine quote.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > They only fix what is messed up on those kind
of quotes....
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Still looks like a gas washed cylinder to me
though...
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Mike
| > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose
to tail in '00
| > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
| > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > Looks like my pistons are .40 over. There's
a 40 on top of
| the
| > > > pistons.
| >
| >
|
|
#80
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Discovered Bore
What a great idea!!!!
"L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
news:403FB90F.8730D319@***.net...
> Real Jeeps are tip it on it's side:
>
http://piction1.awm.gov.au/pls/picti...ps_what=screen
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Steve G wrote:
> >
> > From the looks of your pictures you're almost there. Forty over
doesn't
> > mean the engine is scrap. In fact if it's showing very little ridge at
the
> > top of the cyl and it's been bored out it may be a very good candidate
for a
> > re-ring. If I was on a tight budget I would crawl under and attack
those
> > pan bolts and push out that #2 piston. Worst part of the job is lieing
> > under there taking it apart and putting it back together with oil
dripping
> > in your face. Think of it as a rite of induction into the DIY'er (Do It
> > Yourself)world.
> > Before you take the cap off the rod make sure the cap and rod are
marked.
> > Usually there is a stamping oof the cyl # on the rod and cap on the same
> > side. Cap and rod need to go back exactly as they came apart. If
they're
> > not stamped and you don't have access to stamping numbers, use a centre
> > punch and put 2 punch marks on the cap and 2 on the rod just above it
and so
> > on for all rods.
> > Don't know how you'd use a feeler gauge as suggested above to
measure
> > for oversize, but once the pistons out any machine shop can measure it
for
> > you and tell you what oversize if any.
> > Don't rering just one cyl. Do them all. With as little ridge as
there
> > appears to be on those cylinders if you rering that engine, put a good
head
> > back in you'll get 100,000 miles out of it without problem.
> > If I recall correctly, the head you removed has new seals on it and
you
> > determined no appreciable guide wear. Another budget DIY'er trick is to
> > disassemble the head, take all of the valves to the wire wheel on your
bench
> > grinder and clean them up all shiney. Take a wire wheel on a drill to
the
> > cumbustion chamber valve seat area on the head and clean them up. Buy a
> > valve lapping kit for about $10 and lap the valves in. Very simple
> > procedure and will show you exactly how much contact you have between
valve
> > and seat and will properly mate them together for a good seal. Throw it
> > back together and you're good to go.
> > This whole job could cost you as little as $200 depending on your
buying
> > level. You won't buy much travel time with a new engine for $200.
Again, go
> > to your library and take out a book on general engine repair/overhaul.
An
> > old book is better than a new one as this is the type of work that was
> > routinely done in the 50's and 60's and seldom done now due to the high
cost
> > of labor and the longevity of engines.
> > Steve
"L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
news:403FB90F.8730D319@***.net...
> Real Jeeps are tip it on it's side:
>
http://piction1.awm.gov.au/pls/picti...ps_what=screen
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Steve G wrote:
> >
> > From the looks of your pictures you're almost there. Forty over
doesn't
> > mean the engine is scrap. In fact if it's showing very little ridge at
the
> > top of the cyl and it's been bored out it may be a very good candidate
for a
> > re-ring. If I was on a tight budget I would crawl under and attack
those
> > pan bolts and push out that #2 piston. Worst part of the job is lieing
> > under there taking it apart and putting it back together with oil
dripping
> > in your face. Think of it as a rite of induction into the DIY'er (Do It
> > Yourself)world.
> > Before you take the cap off the rod make sure the cap and rod are
marked.
> > Usually there is a stamping oof the cyl # on the rod and cap on the same
> > side. Cap and rod need to go back exactly as they came apart. If
they're
> > not stamped and you don't have access to stamping numbers, use a centre
> > punch and put 2 punch marks on the cap and 2 on the rod just above it
and so
> > on for all rods.
> > Don't know how you'd use a feeler gauge as suggested above to
measure
> > for oversize, but once the pistons out any machine shop can measure it
for
> > you and tell you what oversize if any.
> > Don't rering just one cyl. Do them all. With as little ridge as
there
> > appears to be on those cylinders if you rering that engine, put a good
head
> > back in you'll get 100,000 miles out of it without problem.
> > If I recall correctly, the head you removed has new seals on it and
you
> > determined no appreciable guide wear. Another budget DIY'er trick is to
> > disassemble the head, take all of the valves to the wire wheel on your
bench
> > grinder and clean them up all shiney. Take a wire wheel on a drill to
the
> > cumbustion chamber valve seat area on the head and clean them up. Buy a
> > valve lapping kit for about $10 and lap the valves in. Very simple
> > procedure and will show you exactly how much contact you have between
valve
> > and seat and will properly mate them together for a good seal. Throw it
> > back together and you're good to go.
> > This whole job could cost you as little as $200 depending on your
buying
> > level. You won't buy much travel time with a new engine for $200.
Again, go
> > to your library and take out a book on general engine repair/overhaul.
An
> > old book is better than a new one as this is the type of work that was
> > routinely done in the 50's and 60's and seldom done now due to the high
cost
> > of labor and the longevity of engines.
> > Steve