Lee Ayrton

You're driving on front drum brakes with a foot that is used to disks.
Drums were always weak, and worse when wet. You should consider
converting the front to disks -- find a donor axle and it should be a
bolt-up job.


On Sun, 29 Oct 2006, James Drinkwater wrote:

> All,
> I've always had weak brakes and think they should be much better based on
> what others say.
> I've got a '76 CJ-7 with 11" drums all around. I had 31's, then 33's, now
> 35's on the rear (might do a turn-around back to 31's 15 years later) and
> I've seen very little difference 'tween 'em all; always weak. I've changed
> master cylinder, wheel cylinders, drums and the whole works. I've bled them
> by gravity, pedal pressure and vacuum pump too. Still, WEAK; to the point
> that I have to stand on it as hard as I can to get a wheel to lock up in the
> rain if I'm lucky.
> I don't think there's a blocked line and everything's practically new
> minus the proportioning valve. Could the valve be the culprit from the
> start? Or, should I look for something else? If somebody has a
> troubleshooting scheme, I'd really appreciate it.
> Regards,
> Jim "Comin' Through!!!" Drinkwater
>
>
>

--
"I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
whips....r"
R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.

James Drinkwater

Thanks Bill,
Maybe you can help me out understanding the interchange; which is what's
stunting my progress.
I'd like to get off-the-shelf brake parts that'll interchange:
master/slaves, booster, REAL quality shoes, etc. But, I'm concerned I'll
have fits with bolt patterns, rod length, fittings, and hidden pitfalls.
Most parts shops run out of gas after, "What kind of car is it for?":)
Drink
'76 CJ-7
standard brakes
11" drums x 4

"L.W.(Bill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
news:454CF886.10589A8B@***.net...
> Hi James,
> You want the smallest master cylinder piston you can find, and the
> largest front slave cylinders you can find, to multiply your pedal
> leverage.
> Hi James,
> Double check someone didn't put your brake shoes on backwards, the
> short shoe should face the front.
> The proportioning valve should be centered if the brake light isn't
> lit. To test have someone push the brake pedal while you bleed an axle,
> quickly, the light should light, then slowly bleed the other axle until
> your helper tells you the light went out, very touchy.
> Know that especially with power brakes, tires above 34" will not
> lock up on pavement, but will stop you as fast as feathering stock
> tires.
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> James Drinkwater wrote:
>>
>> Sorry for the omission. It has standard brakes (no booster).
>> I talked to a professional mechanic the other day who has extensive
>> experience with off-roading and the kind of issues we all deal with. He
>> said I can try "hollowing out" the proportioning valve to see if that has
>> a
>> dramatic effect on braking. Now, I know what you're thinking, "You might
>> as
>> well just replace the valve." Might as well but maybe this can prove the
>> issue while I wait for a new part. I don't think it'd be unsafe and,
>> worse
>> case, would just improve braking somewhere.
>> Not so sure 'bout the benefit of boosters or larger master cylinders.
>> Sure, it'd be easier on my foot, but it still doesn't address the
>> gripping
>> power does it? Or does it? Whattaya think?
>> Explain to me the repositioning of the proportioning valve pin reset to
>> neutral.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Drink

James Drinkwater

Thanks Bill,
Maybe you can help me out understanding the interchange; which is what's
stunting my progress.
I'd like to get off-the-shelf brake parts that'll interchange:
master/slaves, booster, REAL quality shoes, etc. But, I'm concerned I'll
have fits with bolt patterns, rod length, fittings, and hidden pitfalls.
Most parts shops run out of gas after, "What kind of car is it for?":)
Drink
'76 CJ-7
standard brakes
11" drums x 4

"L.W.(Bill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
news:454CF886.10589A8B@***.net...
> Hi James,
> You want the smallest master cylinder piston you can find, and the
> largest front slave cylinders you can find, to multiply your pedal
> leverage.
> Hi James,
> Double check someone didn't put your brake shoes on backwards, the
> short shoe should face the front.
> The proportioning valve should be centered if the brake light isn't
> lit. To test have someone push the brake pedal while you bleed an axle,
> quickly, the light should light, then slowly bleed the other axle until
> your helper tells you the light went out, very touchy.
> Know that especially with power brakes, tires above 34" will not
> lock up on pavement, but will stop you as fast as feathering stock
> tires.
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> James Drinkwater wrote:
>>
>> Sorry for the omission. It has standard brakes (no booster).
>> I talked to a professional mechanic the other day who has extensive
>> experience with off-roading and the kind of issues we all deal with. He
>> said I can try "hollowing out" the proportioning valve to see if that has
>> a
>> dramatic effect on braking. Now, I know what you're thinking, "You might
>> as
>> well just replace the valve." Might as well but maybe this can prove the
>> issue while I wait for a new part. I don't think it'd be unsafe and,
>> worse
>> case, would just improve braking somewhere.
>> Not so sure 'bout the benefit of boosters or larger master cylinders.
>> Sure, it'd be easier on my foot, but it still doesn't address the
>> gripping
>> power does it? Or does it? Whattaya think?
>> Explain to me the repositioning of the proportioning valve pin reset to
>> neutral.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Drink

James Drinkwater

Thanks Bill,
Maybe you can help me out understanding the interchange; which is what's
stunting my progress.
I'd like to get off-the-shelf brake parts that'll interchange:
master/slaves, booster, REAL quality shoes, etc. But, I'm concerned I'll
have fits with bolt patterns, rod length, fittings, and hidden pitfalls.
Most parts shops run out of gas after, "What kind of car is it for?":)
Drink
'76 CJ-7
standard brakes
11" drums x 4

"L.W.(Bill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
news:454CF886.10589A8B@***.net...
> Hi James,
> You want the smallest master cylinder piston you can find, and the
> largest front slave cylinders you can find, to multiply your pedal
> leverage.
> Hi James,
> Double check someone didn't put your brake shoes on backwards, the
> short shoe should face the front.
> The proportioning valve should be centered if the brake light isn't
> lit. To test have someone push the brake pedal while you bleed an axle,
> quickly, the light should light, then slowly bleed the other axle until
> your helper tells you the light went out, very touchy.
> Know that especially with power brakes, tires above 34" will not
> lock up on pavement, but will stop you as fast as feathering stock
> tires.
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> James Drinkwater wrote:
>>
>> Sorry for the omission. It has standard brakes (no booster).
>> I talked to a professional mechanic the other day who has extensive
>> experience with off-roading and the kind of issues we all deal with. He
>> said I can try "hollowing out" the proportioning valve to see if that has
>> a
>> dramatic effect on braking. Now, I know what you're thinking, "You might
>> as
>> well just replace the valve." Might as well but maybe this can prove the
>> issue while I wait for a new part. I don't think it'd be unsafe and,
>> worse
>> case, would just improve braking somewhere.
>> Not so sure 'bout the benefit of boosters or larger master cylinders.
>> Sure, it'd be easier on my foot, but it still doesn't address the
>> gripping
>> power does it? Or does it? Whattaya think?
>> Explain to me the repositioning of the proportioning valve pin reset to
>> neutral.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Drink

James Drinkwater

I'd love to (axle swap) but haven't seen any direct swaps lately. We're
getting into a little different ground too and I'd love to kill two birds
with one stone: stronger, little wider, disc brakes, maybe better gears and
a locker too. But it's gotta be a swap that isn't fabrication-intensive
since I don't have those kind of resources or cash.
Best Regards,
Drink
"Lee Ayrton" <layrton@panix.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.NEB.4.64.0611050955500.6636@panix1.panix .com...
>
> You're driving on front drum brakes with a foot that is used to disks.
> Drums were always weak, and worse when wet. You should consider
> converting the front to disks -- find a donor axle and it should be a
> bolt-up job.
>
>
> On Sun, 29 Oct 2006, James Drinkwater wrote:
>
>> All,
>> I've always had weak brakes and think they should be much better based
>> on
>> what others say.
>> I've got a '76 CJ-7 with 11" drums all around. I had 31's, then 33's,
>> now
>> 35's on the rear (might do a turn-around back to 31's 15 years later) and
>> I've seen very little difference 'tween 'em all; always weak. I've
>> changed
>> master cylinder, wheel cylinders, drums and the whole works. I've bled
>> them
>> by gravity, pedal pressure and vacuum pump too. Still, WEAK; to the
>> point
>> that I have to stand on it as hard as I can to get a wheel to lock up in
>> the
>> rain if I'm lucky.
>> I don't think there's a blocked line and everything's practically new
>> minus the proportioning valve. Could the valve be the culprit from the
>> start? Or, should I look for something else? If somebody has a
>> troubleshooting scheme, I'd really appreciate it.
>> Regards,
>> Jim "Comin' Through!!!" Drinkwater
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
> whips....r"
> R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.
>

James Drinkwater

I'd love to (axle swap) but haven't seen any direct swaps lately. We're
getting into a little different ground too and I'd love to kill two birds
with one stone: stronger, little wider, disc brakes, maybe better gears and
a locker too. But it's gotta be a swap that isn't fabrication-intensive
since I don't have those kind of resources or cash.
Best Regards,
Drink
"Lee Ayrton" <layrton@panix.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.NEB.4.64.0611050955500.6636@panix1.panix .com...
>
> You're driving on front drum brakes with a foot that is used to disks.
> Drums were always weak, and worse when wet. You should consider
> converting the front to disks -- find a donor axle and it should be a
> bolt-up job.
>
>
> On Sun, 29 Oct 2006, James Drinkwater wrote:
>
>> All,
>> I've always had weak brakes and think they should be much better based
>> on
>> what others say.
>> I've got a '76 CJ-7 with 11" drums all around. I had 31's, then 33's,
>> now
>> 35's on the rear (might do a turn-around back to 31's 15 years later) and
>> I've seen very little difference 'tween 'em all; always weak. I've
>> changed
>> master cylinder, wheel cylinders, drums and the whole works. I've bled
>> them
>> by gravity, pedal pressure and vacuum pump too. Still, WEAK; to the
>> point
>> that I have to stand on it as hard as I can to get a wheel to lock up in
>> the
>> rain if I'm lucky.
>> I don't think there's a blocked line and everything's practically new
>> minus the proportioning valve. Could the valve be the culprit from the
>> start? Or, should I look for something else? If somebody has a
>> troubleshooting scheme, I'd really appreciate it.
>> Regards,
>> Jim "Comin' Through!!!" Drinkwater
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
> whips....r"
> R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.
>

James Drinkwater

I'd love to (axle swap) but haven't seen any direct swaps lately. We're
getting into a little different ground too and I'd love to kill two birds
with one stone: stronger, little wider, disc brakes, maybe better gears and
a locker too. But it's gotta be a swap that isn't fabrication-intensive
since I don't have those kind of resources or cash.
Best Regards,
Drink
"Lee Ayrton" <layrton@panix.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.NEB.4.64.0611050955500.6636@panix1.panix .com...
>
> You're driving on front drum brakes with a foot that is used to disks.
> Drums were always weak, and worse when wet. You should consider
> converting the front to disks -- find a donor axle and it should be a
> bolt-up job.
>
>
> On Sun, 29 Oct 2006, James Drinkwater wrote:
>
>> All,
>> I've always had weak brakes and think they should be much better based
>> on
>> what others say.
>> I've got a '76 CJ-7 with 11" drums all around. I had 31's, then 33's,
>> now
>> 35's on the rear (might do a turn-around back to 31's 15 years later) and
>> I've seen very little difference 'tween 'em all; always weak. I've
>> changed
>> master cylinder, wheel cylinders, drums and the whole works. I've bled
>> them
>> by gravity, pedal pressure and vacuum pump too. Still, WEAK; to the
>> point
>> that I have to stand on it as hard as I can to get a wheel to lock up in
>> the
>> rain if I'm lucky.
>> I don't think there's a blocked line and everything's practically new
>> minus the proportioning valve. Could the valve be the culprit from the
>> start? Or, should I look for something else? If somebody has a
>> troubleshooting scheme, I'd really appreciate it.
>> Regards,
>> Jim "Comin' Through!!!" Drinkwater
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
> whips....r"
> R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.
>

Lee Ayrton

You don't need to swap axles or even a have working donor axle, you just
need the parts from the mounting brackets outward. Any CJ (5 or 7) disk
brake donor from 1976 through `83 should bolt up, but `79 and up will be
better for parts availabilty. Don't forget to include the proportioning
valve (located on the inner frame rail below the driver's left foot), and
consider dropping the extra money on preformed stainless brake lines.
Really, you'll be happy to didn't try to bend them yourself.

Article on your Dana 30 front axle:
<URL:http://www.jeeptech.com/axle/d30.html>.

Dana 30 disk brake conversion how-to:
<URL:http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/projects/pieces/front/>

Good luck.


On Sun, 5 Nov 2006, James Drinkwater wrote:

> I'd love to (axle swap) but haven't seen any direct swaps lately. We're
> getting into a little different ground too and I'd love to kill two birds
> with one stone: stronger, little wider, disc brakes, maybe better gears and
> a locker too. But it's gotta be a swap that isn't fabrication-intensive
> since I don't have those kind of resources or cash.
> Best Regards,
> Drink
> "Lee Ayrton" <layrton@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:Pine.NEB.4.64.0611050955500.6636@panix1.panix .com...
>>
>> You're driving on front drum brakes with a foot that is used to disks.
>> Drums were always weak, and worse when wet. You should consider
>> converting the front to disks -- find a donor axle and it should be a
>> bolt-up job.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 29 Oct 2006, James Drinkwater wrote:
>>
>>> All,
>>> I've always had weak brakes and think they should be much better based
>>> on
>>> what others say.
>>> I've got a '76 CJ-7 with 11" drums all around. I had 31's, then 33's,
>>> now
>>> 35's on the rear (might do a turn-around back to 31's 15 years later) and
>>> I've seen very little difference 'tween 'em all; always weak. I've
>>> changed
>>> master cylinder, wheel cylinders, drums and the whole works. I've bled
>>> them
>>> by gravity, pedal pressure and vacuum pump too. Still, WEAK; to the
>>> point
>>> that I have to stand on it as hard as I can to get a wheel to lock up in
>>> the
>>> rain if I'm lucky.
>>> I don't think there's a blocked line and everything's practically new
>>> minus the proportioning valve. Could the valve be the culprit from the
>>> start? Or, should I look for something else? If somebody has a
>>> troubleshooting scheme, I'd really appreciate it.
>>> Regards,
>>> Jim "Comin' Through!!!" Drinkwater
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
>> whips....r"
>> R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.
>>
>
>
>

--
"I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
whips....r"
R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.

Lee Ayrton

You don't need to swap axles or even a have working donor axle, you just
need the parts from the mounting brackets outward. Any CJ (5 or 7) disk
brake donor from 1976 through `83 should bolt up, but `79 and up will be
better for parts availabilty. Don't forget to include the proportioning
valve (located on the inner frame rail below the driver's left foot), and
consider dropping the extra money on preformed stainless brake lines.
Really, you'll be happy to didn't try to bend them yourself.

Article on your Dana 30 front axle:
<URL:http://www.jeeptech.com/axle/d30.html>.

Dana 30 disk brake conversion how-to:
<URL:http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/projects/pieces/front/>

Good luck.


On Sun, 5 Nov 2006, James Drinkwater wrote:

> I'd love to (axle swap) but haven't seen any direct swaps lately. We're
> getting into a little different ground too and I'd love to kill two birds
> with one stone: stronger, little wider, disc brakes, maybe better gears and
> a locker too. But it's gotta be a swap that isn't fabrication-intensive
> since I don't have those kind of resources or cash.
> Best Regards,
> Drink
> "Lee Ayrton" <layrton@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:Pine.NEB.4.64.0611050955500.6636@panix1.panix .com...
>>
>> You're driving on front drum brakes with a foot that is used to disks.
>> Drums were always weak, and worse when wet. You should consider
>> converting the front to disks -- find a donor axle and it should be a
>> bolt-up job.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 29 Oct 2006, James Drinkwater wrote:
>>
>>> All,
>>> I've always had weak brakes and think they should be much better based
>>> on
>>> what others say.
>>> I've got a '76 CJ-7 with 11" drums all around. I had 31's, then 33's,
>>> now
>>> 35's on the rear (might do a turn-around back to 31's 15 years later) and
>>> I've seen very little difference 'tween 'em all; always weak. I've
>>> changed
>>> master cylinder, wheel cylinders, drums and the whole works. I've bled
>>> them
>>> by gravity, pedal pressure and vacuum pump too. Still, WEAK; to the
>>> point
>>> that I have to stand on it as hard as I can to get a wheel to lock up in
>>> the
>>> rain if I'm lucky.
>>> I don't think there's a blocked line and everything's practically new
>>> minus the proportioning valve. Could the valve be the culprit from the
>>> start? Or, should I look for something else? If somebody has a
>>> troubleshooting scheme, I'd really appreciate it.
>>> Regards,
>>> Jim "Comin' Through!!!" Drinkwater
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
>> whips....r"
>> R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.
>>
>
>
>

--
"I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
whips....r"
R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.

Lee Ayrton

You don't need to swap axles or even a have working donor axle, you just
need the parts from the mounting brackets outward. Any CJ (5 or 7) disk
brake donor from 1976 through `83 should bolt up, but `79 and up will be
better for parts availabilty. Don't forget to include the proportioning
valve (located on the inner frame rail below the driver's left foot), and
consider dropping the extra money on preformed stainless brake lines.
Really, you'll be happy to didn't try to bend them yourself.

Article on your Dana 30 front axle:
<URL:http://www.jeeptech.com/axle/d30.html>.

Dana 30 disk brake conversion how-to:
<URL:http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/projects/pieces/front/>

Good luck.


On Sun, 5 Nov 2006, James Drinkwater wrote:

> I'd love to (axle swap) but haven't seen any direct swaps lately. We're
> getting into a little different ground too and I'd love to kill two birds
> with one stone: stronger, little wider, disc brakes, maybe better gears and
> a locker too. But it's gotta be a swap that isn't fabrication-intensive
> since I don't have those kind of resources or cash.
> Best Regards,
> Drink
> "Lee Ayrton" <layrton@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:Pine.NEB.4.64.0611050955500.6636@panix1.panix .com...
>>
>> You're driving on front drum brakes with a foot that is used to disks.
>> Drums were always weak, and worse when wet. You should consider
>> converting the front to disks -- find a donor axle and it should be a
>> bolt-up job.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 29 Oct 2006, James Drinkwater wrote:
>>
>>> All,
>>> I've always had weak brakes and think they should be much better based
>>> on
>>> what others say.
>>> I've got a '76 CJ-7 with 11" drums all around. I had 31's, then 33's,
>>> now
>>> 35's on the rear (might do a turn-around back to 31's 15 years later) and
>>> I've seen very little difference 'tween 'em all; always weak. I've
>>> changed
>>> master cylinder, wheel cylinders, drums and the whole works. I've bled
>>> them
>>> by gravity, pedal pressure and vacuum pump too. Still, WEAK; to the
>>> point
>>> that I have to stand on it as hard as I can to get a wheel to lock up in
>>> the
>>> rain if I'm lucky.
>>> I don't think there's a blocked line and everything's practically new
>>> minus the proportioning valve. Could the valve be the culprit from the
>>> start? Or, should I look for something else? If somebody has a
>>> troubleshooting scheme, I'd really appreciate it.
>>> Regards,
>>> Jim "Comin' Through!!!" Drinkwater
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
>> whips....r"
>> R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.
>>
>
>
>

--
"I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
whips....r"
R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.