L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

Well, Mike, got eighty five thousand miles on an K&N air filter,
Baja racers barely get a thousand, before their engines are sanded.
Glass probably stuck an exhaust valve, but the engine needs a complete
rebuild, anyway.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

"Fred W." wrote:
>
> I'm no expert either, burt how would that explain the zero compression in
> cyl #3?
>
> I'm thinking the exhause valve is stuck open or not fully seating closed.
> All the mixture going into that cylinder is being blown out before it gets a
> spark.
>
> Here's what I would do:
> Drain the oil again.
> Pull the plugs and the valve cover
> Have an assistant turn the engine over and watch the valves. (With no oil
> it will save from being messy)
> Compare the valves in cyl 3 to another good cylinder.
> Pay special attention to #3's exhaust.
>
> -Fred W

Jo Bo

I also think it's a valve problem. I would put some Marvel in the cylinder and
put the plug back in and let it run and see what happens. I don't think a valve
can instantly burn, it could brake off and the boroscope should have seen that.
So that leaves carbon holding it open or a sticky valve. Also I agree With Bill
on the K&N filters. During Mt St Helens years ago only those with k&n filters
didn't have filter clogging problems. Why do you think that is? I'll tell you
what I think, the dirt just went on into the engines.

JoBo

"Mike Cagle" <rzbj70@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:88826838.0408112041.22ba07d7@posting.google.c om...
> This morning on the way to work I lost power while doing about 30mph
> up a slight hill. Turned into a parking lot to diagnose the problem.
> Sounded like I lost a cylinder. No abnormal sounds like clanking,
> banging, or clinking. Just a very rough idle and an offending gas
> smell coming out the exhaust. Drove to the nearest dealership which
> happens to be the nearest shop anyway. They did a compression test
> and number three was at zero. All others were in the 150's. I let
> them take the valve cover off and they inspected and said everything
> looked fine (didn't see it myself). Ran a boroscope through the spark
> plug hole and said piston looked fine. Oil had no gas in it.
> Couldn't see the valves well enough. Did the wet oil test and said
> the rings were fine. They suggested next taking the cylinder head
> off. That was when I said no. I didn't think it was quite time for
> that yet. Stopped at an independent shop ran by an old fellow and he
> suggested miracle oil. I'll try anything if it saves me $800. No
> improvement. Spoke with some gearheads at work and they suggested
> more miracles with the primary idea being either:
> a) carbon deposit has caused a stuck valve
> b) valve lifter is stuck due to sludge or mechanical damage
> c) broken valve
> In any case no one thought additional damage was likely. So tonight I
> tried all the miracle fixes to no avail. Started with draining 1 qt
> of oil out and removing the filter. Installed new cheapo filter.
> Added oil flush and SeaFoam and ran for five minutes with the spark
> plug out. While it was running I sprayed Techron and carb cleaner
> into the spark plug hole and down the throttle body. Some black
> deposits were left on my garage floor beneath the exhaust pipe. After
> five minutes I drained the oil pan and the filter. Installed new
> filter, 5 qts of new oil with 1 qt of ATF. Checked the spark plug for
> spark and re-installed. Drove 15 miles with no obvious improvement.
>
> Removing the head is beyond my skill range so I'll take it to the
> independent shop tomorrow. At this point I'm thinking I've burned or
> broken a valve or have a bad lifter. I would like to hear any other
> ideas.
>
> The curious part is that I have nearly always ran Mobil1 in this
> engine since I purchased the vehicle new in 98. I typically change
> the oil twice a year which works out to 5-6k miles each change. Three
> or 4 times a year I use a fuel cleaner additive. I also alternate
> grades of gas occasionally to get additional cleaning. I have a K&N
> air filter and always use a high end oil filter (Fram DG/TG or K&N).
> I have done this with the TJ and our Grand Caravan with a 3.3LV6
> (except no K&N air filter). The TJ has 85k miles and the GC has 108k.
> The GC has fouled two plugs in it's life which I think is odd. Now
> with the TJ issue I'm thinking that I've been a little too lax with
> the oil change interval. But nearly everyone these days says that a
> 3000 mile oil change is unnecessary. Opinions?
>
> I'll see what the results are later this week but I'm a bit baffled.
> Unfortunately my wallet is going to be suffering from a significant
> vaccuum as a result.
>
> Mike Cagle
> 98 TJ 5sp with no other problems

Jo Bo

I also think it's a valve problem. I would put some Marvel in the cylinder and
put the plug back in and let it run and see what happens. I don't think a valve
can instantly burn, it could brake off and the boroscope should have seen that.
So that leaves carbon holding it open or a sticky valve. Also I agree With Bill
on the K&N filters. During Mt St Helens years ago only those with k&n filters
didn't have filter clogging problems. Why do you think that is? I'll tell you
what I think, the dirt just went on into the engines.

JoBo

"Mike Cagle" <rzbj70@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:88826838.0408112041.22ba07d7@posting.google.c om...
> This morning on the way to work I lost power while doing about 30mph
> up a slight hill. Turned into a parking lot to diagnose the problem.
> Sounded like I lost a cylinder. No abnormal sounds like clanking,
> banging, or clinking. Just a very rough idle and an offending gas
> smell coming out the exhaust. Drove to the nearest dealership which
> happens to be the nearest shop anyway. They did a compression test
> and number three was at zero. All others were in the 150's. I let
> them take the valve cover off and they inspected and said everything
> looked fine (didn't see it myself). Ran a boroscope through the spark
> plug hole and said piston looked fine. Oil had no gas in it.
> Couldn't see the valves well enough. Did the wet oil test and said
> the rings were fine. They suggested next taking the cylinder head
> off. That was when I said no. I didn't think it was quite time for
> that yet. Stopped at an independent shop ran by an old fellow and he
> suggested miracle oil. I'll try anything if it saves me $800. No
> improvement. Spoke with some gearheads at work and they suggested
> more miracles with the primary idea being either:
> a) carbon deposit has caused a stuck valve
> b) valve lifter is stuck due to sludge or mechanical damage
> c) broken valve
> In any case no one thought additional damage was likely. So tonight I
> tried all the miracle fixes to no avail. Started with draining 1 qt
> of oil out and removing the filter. Installed new cheapo filter.
> Added oil flush and SeaFoam and ran for five minutes with the spark
> plug out. While it was running I sprayed Techron and carb cleaner
> into the spark plug hole and down the throttle body. Some black
> deposits were left on my garage floor beneath the exhaust pipe. After
> five minutes I drained the oil pan and the filter. Installed new
> filter, 5 qts of new oil with 1 qt of ATF. Checked the spark plug for
> spark and re-installed. Drove 15 miles with no obvious improvement.
>
> Removing the head is beyond my skill range so I'll take it to the
> independent shop tomorrow. At this point I'm thinking I've burned or
> broken a valve or have a bad lifter. I would like to hear any other
> ideas.
>
> The curious part is that I have nearly always ran Mobil1 in this
> engine since I purchased the vehicle new in 98. I typically change
> the oil twice a year which works out to 5-6k miles each change. Three
> or 4 times a year I use a fuel cleaner additive. I also alternate
> grades of gas occasionally to get additional cleaning. I have a K&N
> air filter and always use a high end oil filter (Fram DG/TG or K&N).
> I have done this with the TJ and our Grand Caravan with a 3.3LV6
> (except no K&N air filter). The TJ has 85k miles and the GC has 108k.
> The GC has fouled two plugs in it's life which I think is odd. Now
> with the TJ issue I'm thinking that I've been a little too lax with
> the oil change interval. But nearly everyone these days says that a
> 3000 mile oil change is unnecessary. Opinions?
>
> I'll see what the results are later this week but I'm a bit baffled.
> Unfortunately my wallet is going to be suffering from a significant
> vaccuum as a result.
>
> Mike Cagle
> 98 TJ 5sp with no other problems

Jo Bo

I also think it's a valve problem. I would put some Marvel in the cylinder and
put the plug back in and let it run and see what happens. I don't think a valve
can instantly burn, it could brake off and the boroscope should have seen that.
So that leaves carbon holding it open or a sticky valve. Also I agree With Bill
on the K&N filters. During Mt St Helens years ago only those with k&n filters
didn't have filter clogging problems. Why do you think that is? I'll tell you
what I think, the dirt just went on into the engines.

JoBo

"Mike Cagle" <rzbj70@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:88826838.0408112041.22ba07d7@posting.google.c om...
> This morning on the way to work I lost power while doing about 30mph
> up a slight hill. Turned into a parking lot to diagnose the problem.
> Sounded like I lost a cylinder. No abnormal sounds like clanking,
> banging, or clinking. Just a very rough idle and an offending gas
> smell coming out the exhaust. Drove to the nearest dealership which
> happens to be the nearest shop anyway. They did a compression test
> and number three was at zero. All others were in the 150's. I let
> them take the valve cover off and they inspected and said everything
> looked fine (didn't see it myself). Ran a boroscope through the spark
> plug hole and said piston looked fine. Oil had no gas in it.
> Couldn't see the valves well enough. Did the wet oil test and said
> the rings were fine. They suggested next taking the cylinder head
> off. That was when I said no. I didn't think it was quite time for
> that yet. Stopped at an independent shop ran by an old fellow and he
> suggested miracle oil. I'll try anything if it saves me $800. No
> improvement. Spoke with some gearheads at work and they suggested
> more miracles with the primary idea being either:
> a) carbon deposit has caused a stuck valve
> b) valve lifter is stuck due to sludge or mechanical damage
> c) broken valve
> In any case no one thought additional damage was likely. So tonight I
> tried all the miracle fixes to no avail. Started with draining 1 qt
> of oil out and removing the filter. Installed new cheapo filter.
> Added oil flush and SeaFoam and ran for five minutes with the spark
> plug out. While it was running I sprayed Techron and carb cleaner
> into the spark plug hole and down the throttle body. Some black
> deposits were left on my garage floor beneath the exhaust pipe. After
> five minutes I drained the oil pan and the filter. Installed new
> filter, 5 qts of new oil with 1 qt of ATF. Checked the spark plug for
> spark and re-installed. Drove 15 miles with no obvious improvement.
>
> Removing the head is beyond my skill range so I'll take it to the
> independent shop tomorrow. At this point I'm thinking I've burned or
> broken a valve or have a bad lifter. I would like to hear any other
> ideas.
>
> The curious part is that I have nearly always ran Mobil1 in this
> engine since I purchased the vehicle new in 98. I typically change
> the oil twice a year which works out to 5-6k miles each change. Three
> or 4 times a year I use a fuel cleaner additive. I also alternate
> grades of gas occasionally to get additional cleaning. I have a K&N
> air filter and always use a high end oil filter (Fram DG/TG or K&N).
> I have done this with the TJ and our Grand Caravan with a 3.3LV6
> (except no K&N air filter). The TJ has 85k miles and the GC has 108k.
> The GC has fouled two plugs in it's life which I think is odd. Now
> with the TJ issue I'm thinking that I've been a little too lax with
> the oil change interval. But nearly everyone these days says that a
> 3000 mile oil change is unnecessary. Opinions?
>
> I'll see what the results are later this week but I'm a bit baffled.
> Unfortunately my wallet is going to be suffering from a significant
> vaccuum as a result.
>
> Mike Cagle
> 98 TJ 5sp with no other problems

Jo Bo

I also think it's a valve problem. I would put some Marvel in the cylinder and
put the plug back in and let it run and see what happens. I don't think a valve
can instantly burn, it could brake off and the boroscope should have seen that.
So that leaves carbon holding it open or a sticky valve. Also I agree With Bill
on the K&N filters. During Mt St Helens years ago only those with k&n filters
didn't have filter clogging problems. Why do you think that is? I'll tell you
what I think, the dirt just went on into the engines.

JoBo

"Mike Cagle" <rzbj70@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:88826838.0408112041.22ba07d7@posting.google.c om...
> This morning on the way to work I lost power while doing about 30mph
> up a slight hill. Turned into a parking lot to diagnose the problem.
> Sounded like I lost a cylinder. No abnormal sounds like clanking,
> banging, or clinking. Just a very rough idle and an offending gas
> smell coming out the exhaust. Drove to the nearest dealership which
> happens to be the nearest shop anyway. They did a compression test
> and number three was at zero. All others were in the 150's. I let
> them take the valve cover off and they inspected and said everything
> looked fine (didn't see it myself). Ran a boroscope through the spark
> plug hole and said piston looked fine. Oil had no gas in it.
> Couldn't see the valves well enough. Did the wet oil test and said
> the rings were fine. They suggested next taking the cylinder head
> off. That was when I said no. I didn't think it was quite time for
> that yet. Stopped at an independent shop ran by an old fellow and he
> suggested miracle oil. I'll try anything if it saves me $800. No
> improvement. Spoke with some gearheads at work and they suggested
> more miracles with the primary idea being either:
> a) carbon deposit has caused a stuck valve
> b) valve lifter is stuck due to sludge or mechanical damage
> c) broken valve
> In any case no one thought additional damage was likely. So tonight I
> tried all the miracle fixes to no avail. Started with draining 1 qt
> of oil out and removing the filter. Installed new cheapo filter.
> Added oil flush and SeaFoam and ran for five minutes with the spark
> plug out. While it was running I sprayed Techron and carb cleaner
> into the spark plug hole and down the throttle body. Some black
> deposits were left on my garage floor beneath the exhaust pipe. After
> five minutes I drained the oil pan and the filter. Installed new
> filter, 5 qts of new oil with 1 qt of ATF. Checked the spark plug for
> spark and re-installed. Drove 15 miles with no obvious improvement.
>
> Removing the head is beyond my skill range so I'll take it to the
> independent shop tomorrow. At this point I'm thinking I've burned or
> broken a valve or have a bad lifter. I would like to hear any other
> ideas.
>
> The curious part is that I have nearly always ran Mobil1 in this
> engine since I purchased the vehicle new in 98. I typically change
> the oil twice a year which works out to 5-6k miles each change. Three
> or 4 times a year I use a fuel cleaner additive. I also alternate
> grades of gas occasionally to get additional cleaning. I have a K&N
> air filter and always use a high end oil filter (Fram DG/TG or K&N).
> I have done this with the TJ and our Grand Caravan with a 3.3LV6
> (except no K&N air filter). The TJ has 85k miles and the GC has 108k.
> The GC has fouled two plugs in it's life which I think is odd. Now
> with the TJ issue I'm thinking that I've been a little too lax with
> the oil change interval. But nearly everyone these days says that a
> 3000 mile oil change is unnecessary. Opinions?
>
> I'll see what the results are later this week but I'm a bit baffled.
> Unfortunately my wallet is going to be suffering from a significant
> vaccuum as a result.
>
> Mike Cagle
> 98 TJ 5sp with no other problems

Matt Macchiarolo

It doesn't. But a bad diagnostic might. Has any other shop checked the
compression on Cylinder 3?


"Fred W." <Fred.Wills@allspam myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:s5SdnbXZFqkgL4bcRVn-oQ@adelphia.com...
>
> "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
> news:-_-dnUhUK-UZ_IbcRVn-sA@comcast.com...
> > No expert here, but with the gas smell coming out of the exhaust and no
> gas
> > in the oil, it you might also look into the possibility of an ignition
> > problem as opposed to a valve problem.
>
> I'm no expert either, burt how would that explain the zero compression in
> cyl #3?
>
> I'm thinking the exhause valve is stuck open or not fully seating closed.
> All the mixture going into that cylinder is being blown out before it gets
a
> spark.
>
> Here's what I would do:
> Drain the oil again.
> Pull the plugs and the valve cover
> Have an assistant turn the engine over and watch the valves. (With no oil
> it will save from being messy)
> Compare the valves in cyl 3 to another good cylinder.
> Pay special attention to #3's exhaust.
>
> -Fred W
>
>

Matt Macchiarolo

It doesn't. But a bad diagnostic might. Has any other shop checked the
compression on Cylinder 3?


"Fred W." <Fred.Wills@allspam myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:s5SdnbXZFqkgL4bcRVn-oQ@adelphia.com...
>
> "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
> news:-_-dnUhUK-UZ_IbcRVn-sA@comcast.com...
> > No expert here, but with the gas smell coming out of the exhaust and no
> gas
> > in the oil, it you might also look into the possibility of an ignition
> > problem as opposed to a valve problem.
>
> I'm no expert either, burt how would that explain the zero compression in
> cyl #3?
>
> I'm thinking the exhause valve is stuck open or not fully seating closed.
> All the mixture going into that cylinder is being blown out before it gets
a
> spark.
>
> Here's what I would do:
> Drain the oil again.
> Pull the plugs and the valve cover
> Have an assistant turn the engine over and watch the valves. (With no oil
> it will save from being messy)
> Compare the valves in cyl 3 to another good cylinder.
> Pay special attention to #3's exhaust.
>
> -Fred W
>
>

Matt Macchiarolo

It doesn't. But a bad diagnostic might. Has any other shop checked the
compression on Cylinder 3?


"Fred W." <Fred.Wills@allspam myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:s5SdnbXZFqkgL4bcRVn-oQ@adelphia.com...
>
> "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
> news:-_-dnUhUK-UZ_IbcRVn-sA@comcast.com...
> > No expert here, but with the gas smell coming out of the exhaust and no
> gas
> > in the oil, it you might also look into the possibility of an ignition
> > problem as opposed to a valve problem.
>
> I'm no expert either, burt how would that explain the zero compression in
> cyl #3?
>
> I'm thinking the exhause valve is stuck open or not fully seating closed.
> All the mixture going into that cylinder is being blown out before it gets
a
> spark.
>
> Here's what I would do:
> Drain the oil again.
> Pull the plugs and the valve cover
> Have an assistant turn the engine over and watch the valves. (With no oil
> it will save from being messy)
> Compare the valves in cyl 3 to another good cylinder.
> Pay special attention to #3's exhaust.
>
> -Fred W
>
>

Matt Macchiarolo

It doesn't. But a bad diagnostic might. Has any other shop checked the
compression on Cylinder 3?


"Fred W." <Fred.Wills@allspam myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:s5SdnbXZFqkgL4bcRVn-oQ@adelphia.com...
>
> "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
> news:-_-dnUhUK-UZ_IbcRVn-sA@comcast.com...
> > No expert here, but with the gas smell coming out of the exhaust and no
> gas
> > in the oil, it you might also look into the possibility of an ignition
> > problem as opposed to a valve problem.
>
> I'm no expert either, burt how would that explain the zero compression in
> cyl #3?
>
> I'm thinking the exhause valve is stuck open or not fully seating closed.
> All the mixture going into that cylinder is being blown out before it gets
a
> spark.
>
> Here's what I would do:
> Drain the oil again.
> Pull the plugs and the valve cover
> Have an assistant turn the engine over and watch the valves. (With no oil
> it will save from being messy)
> Compare the valves in cyl 3 to another good cylinder.
> Pay special attention to #3's exhaust.
>
> -Fred W
>
>

Mike Cagle

Thanks for all the comments.

I took the Jeep to a local shop ran by an old fellow and his two sons.
They were baffled by the diagnostics too but seemed more competent
than the mechanic at the 5-Star dealer. Upon removing the valve cover
they found that the valve spring on the exhaust valve was broken.
They confirmed that the valve cover had indeed been removed by the
dealer so the 5-Star mechanic simply missed it. They recommended
replacing all the springs since it appeared to be a fatigue failure.
With that they also replaced all the spark plugs since they had 85k on
the factory originals anyway. My total bill from the local shop came
in at just over $400. A far cry from the total of removing/replacing
the cylinder head.

I called the GM of the dealership and explained the situation.
Curiously he asked if the shop that did the work could confirm that
the valve cover had been off. Sounds like he questioned the integrity
of his own service people. He's refunding the bill for the work they
did and throwing some extras in to convince me to give them another
shot the next time either of my vehicles needs work. Not sure how
effective that will be.

I'm aware of the downsides of running with a K&N air filter. I drove
this Jeep for 70k miles in Arizona before moving to Minnesota in 2002.
The amount of damage done by all the suspended particles in the air
while off-roading in AZ will likely dwarf anything I could ever do
here... unless I hydrolock it while bogging and then the air filter
won't matter anyway.

Thanks again. Hope everyone has a good Jeep'n weekend.

mc