98 Jeep Wrangler and E85 fuel
#341
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 98 Jeep Wrangler and E85 fuel
On Sun, 13 May 2007 23:35:50 -0700, in rec.autos.makers.jeep+******,
XS11E <xs11eNO@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>"Shirley U. Jeste" <dontcallmeshirley@anytime.bud> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 13 May 2007 22:33:39 -0700, XS11E wrote:
>>
>>> Bob Officer <bobofficers@127.0.0.7> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 13 May 2007 12:39:01 -0700, in
>>>> rec.autos.makers.jeep+******, XS11E <xs11eNO@SPAMyahoo.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>Anyone know if that's true or not?
>>>>
>>>> not true.
>>>
>>> References? I got it from a pretty reliable source.
>>
>>
>> http://www.windsun.com/Grid_Tie/solar_econ.htm
>>
>> http://www.solarexpert.com/grid-tie/...advantges.html
>>
>> Links:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_panel
>
>Thanks, but neither address the issue which isn't the monetary cost of
>generating electricity, comparing conventional vs. solar panels but the
>*ENERGY* cost of manufacturing the solar panels. Dollars don't enter
>into the equation at all.
>
>IE, if a solar panel can generate 1 MegaWatt during it's lifetime but
>requires 1.2 MegaWatt to manufacture, it's a losing proposition, and
>that's what I've heard (although the numbers I just made up for
>reference.)
>
>The information came from an engineer working for Motorola on similar
>projects at the time. I'm sure there are improvements in manufacturing
>techniques since but who knows?
>
>That's what I'm trying to find out.....
>
>
>
>
I have two PV cells that are 45 years old (bought from Edmund
Scientific's) and still producing power.
the cost of those two cells were $10. 45 years ago. they are still
producing power. the cost per cell has dropped and those same cells
now sell for about $1.75
--
Ak'toh'di
XS11E <xs11eNO@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>"Shirley U. Jeste" <dontcallmeshirley@anytime.bud> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 13 May 2007 22:33:39 -0700, XS11E wrote:
>>
>>> Bob Officer <bobofficers@127.0.0.7> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 13 May 2007 12:39:01 -0700, in
>>>> rec.autos.makers.jeep+******, XS11E <xs11eNO@SPAMyahoo.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>Anyone know if that's true or not?
>>>>
>>>> not true.
>>>
>>> References? I got it from a pretty reliable source.
>>
>>
>> http://www.windsun.com/Grid_Tie/solar_econ.htm
>>
>> http://www.solarexpert.com/grid-tie/...advantges.html
>>
>> Links:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_panel
>
>Thanks, but neither address the issue which isn't the monetary cost of
>generating electricity, comparing conventional vs. solar panels but the
>*ENERGY* cost of manufacturing the solar panels. Dollars don't enter
>into the equation at all.
>
>IE, if a solar panel can generate 1 MegaWatt during it's lifetime but
>requires 1.2 MegaWatt to manufacture, it's a losing proposition, and
>that's what I've heard (although the numbers I just made up for
>reference.)
>
>The information came from an engineer working for Motorola on similar
>projects at the time. I'm sure there are improvements in manufacturing
>techniques since but who knows?
>
>That's what I'm trying to find out.....
>
>
>
>
I have two PV cells that are 45 years old (bought from Edmund
Scientific's) and still producing power.
the cost of those two cells were $10. 45 years ago. they are still
producing power. the cost per cell has dropped and those same cells
now sell for about $1.75
--
Ak'toh'di
#342
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 98 Jeep Wrangler and E85 fuel
L.W. (Bill) ------ III wrote:
> You never have taken Chemistry. It's one of the first experiments.
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
>
> "jeff" <jalowe44INVALID@hotmail.com.INVALID> wrote in message
> news:UO%0i.13$4a1.9@trndny07
>> Just like his burning magnesium in hydrogen....
>
High school plus 2 years college level: Quantitative, Qualitative, and
two terms of Organic.
Magnesium will not burn in hydrogen, however magnesium hydride shows
some potential as a hydrogen storage medium.
> You never have taken Chemistry. It's one of the first experiments.
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
>
> "jeff" <jalowe44INVALID@hotmail.com.INVALID> wrote in message
> news:UO%0i.13$4a1.9@trndny07
>> Just like his burning magnesium in hydrogen....
>
High school plus 2 years college level: Quantitative, Qualitative, and
two terms of Organic.
Magnesium will not burn in hydrogen, however magnesium hydride shows
some potential as a hydrogen storage medium.
#343
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 98 Jeep Wrangler and E85 fuel
L.W. (Bill) ------ III wrote:
> You never have taken Chemistry. It's one of the first experiments.
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
>
> "jeff" <jalowe44INVALID@hotmail.com.INVALID> wrote in message
> news:UO%0i.13$4a1.9@trndny07
>> Just like his burning magnesium in hydrogen....
>
High school plus 2 years college level: Quantitative, Qualitative, and
two terms of Organic.
Magnesium will not burn in hydrogen, however magnesium hydride shows
some potential as a hydrogen storage medium.
> You never have taken Chemistry. It's one of the first experiments.
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
>
> "jeff" <jalowe44INVALID@hotmail.com.INVALID> wrote in message
> news:UO%0i.13$4a1.9@trndny07
>> Just like his burning magnesium in hydrogen....
>
High school plus 2 years college level: Quantitative, Qualitative, and
two terms of Organic.
Magnesium will not burn in hydrogen, however magnesium hydride shows
some potential as a hydrogen storage medium.
#344
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 98 Jeep Wrangler and E85 fuel
L.W. (Bill) ------ III wrote:
> You never have taken Chemistry. It's one of the first experiments.
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
>
> "jeff" <jalowe44INVALID@hotmail.com.INVALID> wrote in message
> news:UO%0i.13$4a1.9@trndny07
>> Just like his burning magnesium in hydrogen....
>
High school plus 2 years college level: Quantitative, Qualitative, and
two terms of Organic.
Magnesium will not burn in hydrogen, however magnesium hydride shows
some potential as a hydrogen storage medium.
> You never have taken Chemistry. It's one of the first experiments.
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
>
> "jeff" <jalowe44INVALID@hotmail.com.INVALID> wrote in message
> news:UO%0i.13$4a1.9@trndny07
>> Just like his burning magnesium in hydrogen....
>
High school plus 2 years college level: Quantitative, Qualitative, and
two terms of Organic.
Magnesium will not burn in hydrogen, however magnesium hydride shows
some potential as a hydrogen storage medium.
#345
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 98 Jeep Wrangler and E85 fuel
L.W. (Bill) ------ III wrote:
> You never have taken Chemistry. It's one of the first experiments.
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
>
> "jeff" <jalowe44INVALID@hotmail.com.INVALID> wrote in message
> news:UO%0i.13$4a1.9@trndny07
>> Just like his burning magnesium in hydrogen....
>
High school plus 2 years college level: Quantitative, Qualitative, and
two terms of Organic.
Magnesium will not burn in hydrogen, however magnesium hydride shows
some potential as a hydrogen storage medium.
> You never have taken Chemistry. It's one of the first experiments.
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
>
> "jeff" <jalowe44INVALID@hotmail.com.INVALID> wrote in message
> news:UO%0i.13$4a1.9@trndny07
>> Just like his burning magnesium in hydrogen....
>
High school plus 2 years college level: Quantitative, Qualitative, and
two terms of Organic.
Magnesium will not burn in hydrogen, however magnesium hydride shows
some potential as a hydrogen storage medium.
#346
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 98 Jeep Wrangler and E85 fuel
On May 13, 5:15 pm, "Earle Horton" <e...@angloburgues.usa> wrote:
> "XS11E" <xs11...@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns992F80AFCC7FCxs11eyahoocom@69.28.173.184.. .
>
>
>
> > h...@urusei.net (Herb Leong) wrote:
>
> > > In article <1178731433.061923.236...@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups. com>,
> > > nrs <neale...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > #2) if it is obtained by separating from oxygen in water, then it
> > > takes #more energy to seperate than you get back by burning.
> > > Yes. That means you need a super-cheap source of electricity.
> > > While solar panels are expensive, they are cheap to run (mostly
> > > free--some soap and water to keep it clean and a regular going
> > > over by the owner).
>
> > I don't know for sure, but I've heard that solar panels require more
> > energy to manufacture than they can produce over their entire life
> > span.
>
> > Anyone know if that's true or not?
>
> I don't know either but this is the sort of thing that one hears about the
> batteries and electronics in hybrid cars. In Albuquerque you can park for
> free in city parking if you have one. That would almost make it worth
> driving one.
>
> Earle- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
This is a perfect example of how economics leads to bad decisions for
the planet. Hard to get around this problem and as the world becomes
more resource-constrained it will become a bigger problem over time.
> "XS11E" <xs11...@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns992F80AFCC7FCxs11eyahoocom@69.28.173.184.. .
>
>
>
> > h...@urusei.net (Herb Leong) wrote:
>
> > > In article <1178731433.061923.236...@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups. com>,
> > > nrs <neale...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > #2) if it is obtained by separating from oxygen in water, then it
> > > takes #more energy to seperate than you get back by burning.
> > > Yes. That means you need a super-cheap source of electricity.
> > > While solar panels are expensive, they are cheap to run (mostly
> > > free--some soap and water to keep it clean and a regular going
> > > over by the owner).
>
> > I don't know for sure, but I've heard that solar panels require more
> > energy to manufacture than they can produce over their entire life
> > span.
>
> > Anyone know if that's true or not?
>
> I don't know either but this is the sort of thing that one hears about the
> batteries and electronics in hybrid cars. In Albuquerque you can park for
> free in city parking if you have one. That would almost make it worth
> driving one.
>
> Earle- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
This is a perfect example of how economics leads to bad decisions for
the planet. Hard to get around this problem and as the world becomes
more resource-constrained it will become a bigger problem over time.
#347
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 98 Jeep Wrangler and E85 fuel
On May 13, 5:15 pm, "Earle Horton" <e...@angloburgues.usa> wrote:
> "XS11E" <xs11...@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns992F80AFCC7FCxs11eyahoocom@69.28.173.184.. .
>
>
>
> > h...@urusei.net (Herb Leong) wrote:
>
> > > In article <1178731433.061923.236...@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups. com>,
> > > nrs <neale...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > #2) if it is obtained by separating from oxygen in water, then it
> > > takes #more energy to seperate than you get back by burning.
> > > Yes. That means you need a super-cheap source of electricity.
> > > While solar panels are expensive, they are cheap to run (mostly
> > > free--some soap and water to keep it clean and a regular going
> > > over by the owner).
>
> > I don't know for sure, but I've heard that solar panels require more
> > energy to manufacture than they can produce over their entire life
> > span.
>
> > Anyone know if that's true or not?
>
> I don't know either but this is the sort of thing that one hears about the
> batteries and electronics in hybrid cars. In Albuquerque you can park for
> free in city parking if you have one. That would almost make it worth
> driving one.
>
> Earle- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
This is a perfect example of how economics leads to bad decisions for
the planet. Hard to get around this problem and as the world becomes
more resource-constrained it will become a bigger problem over time.
> "XS11E" <xs11...@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns992F80AFCC7FCxs11eyahoocom@69.28.173.184.. .
>
>
>
> > h...@urusei.net (Herb Leong) wrote:
>
> > > In article <1178731433.061923.236...@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups. com>,
> > > nrs <neale...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > #2) if it is obtained by separating from oxygen in water, then it
> > > takes #more energy to seperate than you get back by burning.
> > > Yes. That means you need a super-cheap source of electricity.
> > > While solar panels are expensive, they are cheap to run (mostly
> > > free--some soap and water to keep it clean and a regular going
> > > over by the owner).
>
> > I don't know for sure, but I've heard that solar panels require more
> > energy to manufacture than they can produce over their entire life
> > span.
>
> > Anyone know if that's true or not?
>
> I don't know either but this is the sort of thing that one hears about the
> batteries and electronics in hybrid cars. In Albuquerque you can park for
> free in city parking if you have one. That would almost make it worth
> driving one.
>
> Earle- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
This is a perfect example of how economics leads to bad decisions for
the planet. Hard to get around this problem and as the world becomes
more resource-constrained it will become a bigger problem over time.
#348
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 98 Jeep Wrangler and E85 fuel
On May 13, 5:15 pm, "Earle Horton" <e...@angloburgues.usa> wrote:
> "XS11E" <xs11...@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns992F80AFCC7FCxs11eyahoocom@69.28.173.184.. .
>
>
>
> > h...@urusei.net (Herb Leong) wrote:
>
> > > In article <1178731433.061923.236...@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups. com>,
> > > nrs <neale...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > #2) if it is obtained by separating from oxygen in water, then it
> > > takes #more energy to seperate than you get back by burning.
> > > Yes. That means you need a super-cheap source of electricity.
> > > While solar panels are expensive, they are cheap to run (mostly
> > > free--some soap and water to keep it clean and a regular going
> > > over by the owner).
>
> > I don't know for sure, but I've heard that solar panels require more
> > energy to manufacture than they can produce over their entire life
> > span.
>
> > Anyone know if that's true or not?
>
> I don't know either but this is the sort of thing that one hears about the
> batteries and electronics in hybrid cars. In Albuquerque you can park for
> free in city parking if you have one. That would almost make it worth
> driving one.
>
> Earle- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
This is a perfect example of how economics leads to bad decisions for
the planet. Hard to get around this problem and as the world becomes
more resource-constrained it will become a bigger problem over time.
> "XS11E" <xs11...@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns992F80AFCC7FCxs11eyahoocom@69.28.173.184.. .
>
>
>
> > h...@urusei.net (Herb Leong) wrote:
>
> > > In article <1178731433.061923.236...@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups. com>,
> > > nrs <neale...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > #2) if it is obtained by separating from oxygen in water, then it
> > > takes #more energy to seperate than you get back by burning.
> > > Yes. That means you need a super-cheap source of electricity.
> > > While solar panels are expensive, they are cheap to run (mostly
> > > free--some soap and water to keep it clean and a regular going
> > > over by the owner).
>
> > I don't know for sure, but I've heard that solar panels require more
> > energy to manufacture than they can produce over their entire life
> > span.
>
> > Anyone know if that's true or not?
>
> I don't know either but this is the sort of thing that one hears about the
> batteries and electronics in hybrid cars. In Albuquerque you can park for
> free in city parking if you have one. That would almost make it worth
> driving one.
>
> Earle- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
This is a perfect example of how economics leads to bad decisions for
the planet. Hard to get around this problem and as the world becomes
more resource-constrained it will become a bigger problem over time.
#349
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 98 Jeep Wrangler and E85 fuel
On May 13, 5:15 pm, "Earle Horton" <e...@angloburgues.usa> wrote:
> "XS11E" <xs11...@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns992F80AFCC7FCxs11eyahoocom@69.28.173.184.. .
>
>
>
> > h...@urusei.net (Herb Leong) wrote:
>
> > > In article <1178731433.061923.236...@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups. com>,
> > > nrs <neale...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > #2) if it is obtained by separating from oxygen in water, then it
> > > takes #more energy to seperate than you get back by burning.
> > > Yes. That means you need a super-cheap source of electricity.
> > > While solar panels are expensive, they are cheap to run (mostly
> > > free--some soap and water to keep it clean and a regular going
> > > over by the owner).
>
> > I don't know for sure, but I've heard that solar panels require more
> > energy to manufacture than they can produce over their entire life
> > span.
>
> > Anyone know if that's true or not?
>
> I don't know either but this is the sort of thing that one hears about the
> batteries and electronics in hybrid cars. In Albuquerque you can park for
> free in city parking if you have one. That would almost make it worth
> driving one.
>
> Earle- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
This is a perfect example of how economics leads to bad decisions for
the planet. Hard to get around this problem and as the world becomes
more resource-constrained it will become a bigger problem over time.
> "XS11E" <xs11...@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns992F80AFCC7FCxs11eyahoocom@69.28.173.184.. .
>
>
>
> > h...@urusei.net (Herb Leong) wrote:
>
> > > In article <1178731433.061923.236...@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups. com>,
> > > nrs <neale...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > #2) if it is obtained by separating from oxygen in water, then it
> > > takes #more energy to seperate than you get back by burning.
> > > Yes. That means you need a super-cheap source of electricity.
> > > While solar panels are expensive, they are cheap to run (mostly
> > > free--some soap and water to keep it clean and a regular going
> > > over by the owner).
>
> > I don't know for sure, but I've heard that solar panels require more
> > energy to manufacture than they can produce over their entire life
> > span.
>
> > Anyone know if that's true or not?
>
> I don't know either but this is the sort of thing that one hears about the
> batteries and electronics in hybrid cars. In Albuquerque you can park for
> free in city parking if you have one. That would almost make it worth
> driving one.
>
> Earle- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
This is a perfect example of how economics leads to bad decisions for
the planet. Hard to get around this problem and as the world becomes
more resource-constrained it will become a bigger problem over time.
#350
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 98 Jeep Wrangler and E85 fuel
Will Honea <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote:
> XS11E wrote:
>> Thanks, but neither address the issue which isn't the monetary
>> cost of generating electricity, comparing conventional vs. solar
>> panels but the *ENERGY* cost of manufacturing the solar panels.
>> Dollars don't enter into the equation at all.
>>
>> IE, if a solar panel can generate 1 MegaWatt during it's lifetime
>> but requires 1.2 MegaWatt to manufacture, it's a losing
>> proposition, and that's what I've heard (although the numbers I
>> just made up for reference.)
>>
>> The information came from an engineer working for Motorola on
>> similar projects at the time. I'm sure there are improvements in
>> manufacturing techniques since but who knows?
>>
>> That's what I'm trying to find out.....
>
> Well, the end-user price of any device is a fairly decent measure
> of the energy used to produce it
Actually, it's not related at all. See Bob Officer's post, he says:
"I have two PV cells that are 45 years old (bought from Edmund
Scientific's) and still producing power.
the cost of those two cells were $10. 45 years ago. they are still
producing power. the cost per cell has dropped and those same cells
now sell for about $1.75"
The energy required to make the cells hasn't changed in 45 years nor
has the amount of energy they'll produce. The monetary price has
changed as more are produced the individual price goes down.
The energy used to produce a product isn't related to the cost of the
product at all, look at fluctuations in gasoline over the last few
weeks, the energy required to produce it hasn't changed, the price is
market driven as are all prices.
The problem is this, people always think in terms of monetary cost and
that's wrong where "green" is concerned. Think of a coal fired
generating station suppling energy to your house and to a factory
making solar panels. Your house requires X amount of energy to run
your TV, PC, etc. over it's lifetime.
If the coal fired plant uses 2X energy to supply your house and the
solar panel requires 3X energy to make, you get the solar panel and
don't have any more electric bill, you saved a fortune and it's GREAT
for you, the consumer but it's BAD for the ecology because your house
has now used MORE energy, consumed more of the planet's resources, etc.
The reverse would be true if the solar panel cost 1.5X to manufacture,
then it would be good for you, the consumer, and good for the ecology
as well.
Things aren't as simple as they sound but there is one simple rule to
follow, ecologists are almost always wrong because they do not
understand the problem and frequently do much more harm than good.
The "inconvenient truth" is that nobody really has a handle on the
ecology problems and any action taken is as likely to make things worse
as it is to make them better.
> XS11E wrote:
>> Thanks, but neither address the issue which isn't the monetary
>> cost of generating electricity, comparing conventional vs. solar
>> panels but the *ENERGY* cost of manufacturing the solar panels.
>> Dollars don't enter into the equation at all.
>>
>> IE, if a solar panel can generate 1 MegaWatt during it's lifetime
>> but requires 1.2 MegaWatt to manufacture, it's a losing
>> proposition, and that's what I've heard (although the numbers I
>> just made up for reference.)
>>
>> The information came from an engineer working for Motorola on
>> similar projects at the time. I'm sure there are improvements in
>> manufacturing techniques since but who knows?
>>
>> That's what I'm trying to find out.....
>
> Well, the end-user price of any device is a fairly decent measure
> of the energy used to produce it
Actually, it's not related at all. See Bob Officer's post, he says:
"I have two PV cells that are 45 years old (bought from Edmund
Scientific's) and still producing power.
the cost of those two cells were $10. 45 years ago. they are still
producing power. the cost per cell has dropped and those same cells
now sell for about $1.75"
The energy required to make the cells hasn't changed in 45 years nor
has the amount of energy they'll produce. The monetary price has
changed as more are produced the individual price goes down.
The energy used to produce a product isn't related to the cost of the
product at all, look at fluctuations in gasoline over the last few
weeks, the energy required to produce it hasn't changed, the price is
market driven as are all prices.
The problem is this, people always think in terms of monetary cost and
that's wrong where "green" is concerned. Think of a coal fired
generating station suppling energy to your house and to a factory
making solar panels. Your house requires X amount of energy to run
your TV, PC, etc. over it's lifetime.
If the coal fired plant uses 2X energy to supply your house and the
solar panel requires 3X energy to make, you get the solar panel and
don't have any more electric bill, you saved a fortune and it's GREAT
for you, the consumer but it's BAD for the ecology because your house
has now used MORE energy, consumed more of the planet's resources, etc.
The reverse would be true if the solar panel cost 1.5X to manufacture,
then it would be good for you, the consumer, and good for the ecology
as well.
Things aren't as simple as they sound but there is one simple rule to
follow, ecologists are almost always wrong because they do not
understand the problem and frequently do much more harm than good.
The "inconvenient truth" is that nobody really has a handle on the
ecology problems and any action taken is as likely to make things worse
as it is to make them better.