nrs

On May 9, 5:35 pm, Ivan Jager <aij+nos...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
> On 2007-05-09, SnoMan <a...@snoman.com> wrote:
>
> > Hyddrogen and Ammonia which is used in fertilizer production. They
> > have been searching for years to fund a cheap way to split Hydrogen
> > and Oxygem atoms apart in water for unlimited fuel source but right
> > now it take more energy to make it han is recoverd when using water.
>
> And it always will. Are you familiar with the second law of
> thermodynamics?
>
> IMHO, our best hope is to be able to separate them using a cheaper
> source of energy, such as sunlight, because then it doesn't matter
> whether we can recover all the energy that went into it.
>
> Ivan

I agree.

Lon

Thinly disguised movie about Red Adair who if memory serves pioneered
the tactic.

Earle Horton proclaimed:

> What is the name of that old movie about the guys who put out the flame in
> an out of control oil well, using dynamite? I am thinking 40s-50s, but that
> is all that comes up.
>
> Earle
>
> "L.W. (Bill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
> news:4641399e$0$16367$88260bb3@free.teranews.com.. .
>
>> The candles are in all the oil crackers I worked, and they regularly
>>exploded. When it goes out, run for you life:
>>http://tinpan.fortunecity.com/blur/8...1/b634115m.jpg
>> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
>>mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/kenworth.jpg
>>
>>
>>"Earle Horton" <earle@angloburgues.usa> wrote in message
>>news:46411705$0$31844$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews .com
>>
>>>Heh, I like the open flames one sees over oil wells to burn off
>
> "surplus"
>
>>>natural gas.
>>>
>>>Earle
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>>
>
>
>

Lon

Thinly disguised movie about Red Adair who if memory serves pioneered
the tactic.

Earle Horton proclaimed:

> What is the name of that old movie about the guys who put out the flame in
> an out of control oil well, using dynamite? I am thinking 40s-50s, but that
> is all that comes up.
>
> Earle
>
> "L.W. (Bill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
> news:4641399e$0$16367$88260bb3@free.teranews.com.. .
>
>> The candles are in all the oil crackers I worked, and they regularly
>>exploded. When it goes out, run for you life:
>>http://tinpan.fortunecity.com/blur/8...1/b634115m.jpg
>> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
>>mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/kenworth.jpg
>>
>>
>>"Earle Horton" <earle@angloburgues.usa> wrote in message
>>news:46411705$0$31844$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews .com
>>
>>>Heh, I like the open flames one sees over oil wells to burn off
>
> "surplus"
>
>>>natural gas.
>>>
>>>Earle
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>>
>
>
>

Lon

Thinly disguised movie about Red Adair who if memory serves pioneered
the tactic.

Earle Horton proclaimed:

> What is the name of that old movie about the guys who put out the flame in
> an out of control oil well, using dynamite? I am thinking 40s-50s, but that
> is all that comes up.
>
> Earle
>
> "L.W. (Bill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
> news:4641399e$0$16367$88260bb3@free.teranews.com.. .
>
>> The candles are in all the oil crackers I worked, and they regularly
>>exploded. When it goes out, run for you life:
>>http://tinpan.fortunecity.com/blur/8...1/b634115m.jpg
>> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
>>mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/kenworth.jpg
>>
>>
>>"Earle Horton" <earle@angloburgues.usa> wrote in message
>>news:46411705$0$31844$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews .com
>>
>>>Heh, I like the open flames one sees over oil wells to burn off
>
> "surplus"
>
>>>natural gas.
>>>
>>>Earle
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>>
>
>
>

Lon

Thinly disguised movie about Red Adair who if memory serves pioneered
the tactic.

Earle Horton proclaimed:

> What is the name of that old movie about the guys who put out the flame in
> an out of control oil well, using dynamite? I am thinking 40s-50s, but that
> is all that comes up.
>
> Earle
>
> "L.W. (Bill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
> news:4641399e$0$16367$88260bb3@free.teranews.com.. .
>
>> The candles are in all the oil crackers I worked, and they regularly
>>exploded. When it goes out, run for you life:
>>http://tinpan.fortunecity.com/blur/8...1/b634115m.jpg
>> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
>>mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/kenworth.jpg
>>
>>
>>"Earle Horton" <earle@angloburgues.usa> wrote in message
>>news:46411705$0$31844$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews .com
>>
>>>Heh, I like the open flames one sees over oil wells to burn off
>
> "surplus"
>
>>>natural gas.
>>>
>>>Earle
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>>
>
>
>

Lon

SnoMan proclaimed:

> On 9 May 2007 07:52:55 -0700, nrs <neale_rs@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Energy in itself is not a problem, we have solar, wind, nuclear, coal,
>>etc. The serious problem is how to run vehicles. Petroleum fuels are
>>the only viable way to do it right now, just think of a jet. Ethanol,
>>hydrogen, nothing is efficient enough yet to compete with direct
>>burning of fossil fuels. We also need to save some petroleum for
>>lubrication of machinery. Another thing that is often overlooked is
>>that food production is what it is thanks to the use of fertilizers
>>made from petroleum, we are actually eating our oil supply.
>
>
> Hydrogen is very efficent but there is two problems with using it.
> First currently it is made from crude and cost about 10 to 12 bucks a
> gallon. Next is its storage. To be stored in a liquid state for
> greatest fuel density it has to be keep extremely cold. (about 423
> degrees below zero) As far as energy density, gasoline has about
> 18,500 BTU's per pound and Hydrogen about 60,000 BTU's per pound (and
> a gallon weighs about .6 lbs). Pure ethanol has only about 8500 BTU's
> per pound. As a comparison, Propane has about 22,500 BTU's per pound
> and a #2 Deisel has about 21,500 BTU's per pound or just a bit less
> than Propane (this is lbs not gallons and a gallon of Propane weighs 4
> lbs)

And next is the dirty little secret that unless you burn it in a fuel
cell, you get a lot of NOx and it is harder to reduce the combustion
temperature to avoid the NOx than with gasoline. OK, so you could carry
LOx and burn the hydrogen with that to avoid the NOx that comes from
burning anything in an atmosphere pretty much mostly nitrogen.

Lon

SnoMan proclaimed:

> On 9 May 2007 07:52:55 -0700, nrs <neale_rs@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Energy in itself is not a problem, we have solar, wind, nuclear, coal,
>>etc. The serious problem is how to run vehicles. Petroleum fuels are
>>the only viable way to do it right now, just think of a jet. Ethanol,
>>hydrogen, nothing is efficient enough yet to compete with direct
>>burning of fossil fuels. We also need to save some petroleum for
>>lubrication of machinery. Another thing that is often overlooked is
>>that food production is what it is thanks to the use of fertilizers
>>made from petroleum, we are actually eating our oil supply.
>
>
> Hydrogen is very efficent but there is two problems with using it.
> First currently it is made from crude and cost about 10 to 12 bucks a
> gallon. Next is its storage. To be stored in a liquid state for
> greatest fuel density it has to be keep extremely cold. (about 423
> degrees below zero) As far as energy density, gasoline has about
> 18,500 BTU's per pound and Hydrogen about 60,000 BTU's per pound (and
> a gallon weighs about .6 lbs). Pure ethanol has only about 8500 BTU's
> per pound. As a comparison, Propane has about 22,500 BTU's per pound
> and a #2 Deisel has about 21,500 BTU's per pound or just a bit less
> than Propane (this is lbs not gallons and a gallon of Propane weighs 4
> lbs)

And next is the dirty little secret that unless you burn it in a fuel
cell, you get a lot of NOx and it is harder to reduce the combustion
temperature to avoid the NOx than with gasoline. OK, so you could carry
LOx and burn the hydrogen with that to avoid the NOx that comes from
burning anything in an atmosphere pretty much mostly nitrogen.

Lon

SnoMan proclaimed:

> On 9 May 2007 07:52:55 -0700, nrs <neale_rs@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Energy in itself is not a problem, we have solar, wind, nuclear, coal,
>>etc. The serious problem is how to run vehicles. Petroleum fuels are
>>the only viable way to do it right now, just think of a jet. Ethanol,
>>hydrogen, nothing is efficient enough yet to compete with direct
>>burning of fossil fuels. We also need to save some petroleum for
>>lubrication of machinery. Another thing that is often overlooked is
>>that food production is what it is thanks to the use of fertilizers
>>made from petroleum, we are actually eating our oil supply.
>
>
> Hydrogen is very efficent but there is two problems with using it.
> First currently it is made from crude and cost about 10 to 12 bucks a
> gallon. Next is its storage. To be stored in a liquid state for
> greatest fuel density it has to be keep extremely cold. (about 423
> degrees below zero) As far as energy density, gasoline has about
> 18,500 BTU's per pound and Hydrogen about 60,000 BTU's per pound (and
> a gallon weighs about .6 lbs). Pure ethanol has only about 8500 BTU's
> per pound. As a comparison, Propane has about 22,500 BTU's per pound
> and a #2 Deisel has about 21,500 BTU's per pound or just a bit less
> than Propane (this is lbs not gallons and a gallon of Propane weighs 4
> lbs)

And next is the dirty little secret that unless you burn it in a fuel
cell, you get a lot of NOx and it is harder to reduce the combustion
temperature to avoid the NOx than with gasoline. OK, so you could carry
LOx and burn the hydrogen with that to avoid the NOx that comes from
burning anything in an atmosphere pretty much mostly nitrogen.

Lon

SnoMan proclaimed:

> On 9 May 2007 07:52:55 -0700, nrs <neale_rs@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Energy in itself is not a problem, we have solar, wind, nuclear, coal,
>>etc. The serious problem is how to run vehicles. Petroleum fuels are
>>the only viable way to do it right now, just think of a jet. Ethanol,
>>hydrogen, nothing is efficient enough yet to compete with direct
>>burning of fossil fuels. We also need to save some petroleum for
>>lubrication of machinery. Another thing that is often overlooked is
>>that food production is what it is thanks to the use of fertilizers
>>made from petroleum, we are actually eating our oil supply.
>
>
> Hydrogen is very efficent but there is two problems with using it.
> First currently it is made from crude and cost about 10 to 12 bucks a
> gallon. Next is its storage. To be stored in a liquid state for
> greatest fuel density it has to be keep extremely cold. (about 423
> degrees below zero) As far as energy density, gasoline has about
> 18,500 BTU's per pound and Hydrogen about 60,000 BTU's per pound (and
> a gallon weighs about .6 lbs). Pure ethanol has only about 8500 BTU's
> per pound. As a comparison, Propane has about 22,500 BTU's per pound
> and a #2 Deisel has about 21,500 BTU's per pound or just a bit less
> than Propane (this is lbs not gallons and a gallon of Propane weighs 4
> lbs)

And next is the dirty little secret that unless you burn it in a fuel
cell, you get a lot of NOx and it is harder to reduce the combustion
temperature to avoid the NOx than with gasoline. OK, so you could carry
LOx and burn the hydrogen with that to avoid the NOx that comes from
burning anything in an atmosphere pretty much mostly nitrogen.

Lon

SnoMan proclaimed:

> On Wed, 09 May 2007 13:27:20 -0400, FrankW <fworm@norpak.ca> wrote:
>
>
>>Funny that, from what I understand:
>>Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe
>
>
>
> In the universe yes as stars and vast clouds of interstellar gas are
> made mostly of hydrogen but on the earth, free hydrogen in its native
> state is rare. Given the tempatures needed for it to because a liquid
> it is easy to see why. Hydrgen is a building block though is all
> fossil fuels but it is not in the form of free atoms.
> -----------------

Free hydrogen is quite rare in space, it usually comes combined with
something else unless you get it from something the size of Jupiter or
bigger where you might find it in metallic form.