Mike Romain

I am back a page still, or want to be....

First off you say there is a failure issue or fatal error with the
alarm. It does 'not' work because you cannot program the second key and
the idiot light is flashing failure at you or not flashing when it
should which is a failure. Something has to be 'broken' in that
situation.

Then you said you have power at the fuel pump relay but no power back at
the fuel pump.

Now you say the key sometime turns on everything properly, but most
times doesn't.

I think these are related.

I would be running a booster cable from the negative battery post to
something metal on the firewall to see what happens just because I live
in the rust belt and see too many 'rotted where you can't see them'
connections.

Then I would be trying to find out if I could bypass the alarm and
security key.

Next I would be physically tracing the power from the fuel pump relay to
see what is between that and the pump itself. I would just take a wild
guess and figure the alarm has a cut off relay in there.

Could it be a bad ignition switch causing everything?

Or could the $tealer have screwed the alarm setting when they failed to
program the second key?

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

rifleman@nojunkmail.net wrote:
>
> Ok, here's the current situation...
>
> Tested all the relays and engine compartment fuse/relay box and they
> are all fine. Checked the interior fuse panel and all is fine.
> Everything in these places is getting voltage.
>
> Here is something we (my good neighbor and I) noticed during this
> testing and starting attempts...
>
> If you turn the ignition to the RUN position, four dash lights should
> come on. 1) ABS, 2) Check Engine, 3)Airbag and 4) Seatbelt.
>
> If you turn the key to RUN, and the "Check Engine" light comes on, the
> jeep will start. If the "Check Engine" light does not come on, the
> jeep will NOT start. If you put the key in the RUN position and the
> "check engine" light does not come on, AND you leave the key in the
> RUN position, eventually the "Check Engine" light comes on and the
> jeep starts. Every time the "Check Engine" light comes on, you can
> hear the fuel pump prime and start the jeep, usually on the first try.
>
> We repeated this pattern for a good 30-60 minutes, giving different
> time intervals inbetween because sometimes the dash lights all come on
> as they should on the first trr, and we wanted to make sure it wasn't
> initial luck. We confirmed there is a definite pattern.
>
> On the very last attempt, it took longer for the light to come on.. at
> least another 20 seconds than all the other previous attempts, AND
> when the "Check Engine" light came on, so did the Security light. The
> Security light remains on for about 3-5 seconds and then went off.
>
> I know the system is running checks when the light is on, and
> sometimes something isn't letting it come on, ergo no checks and
> nofuel priming. Anyone ever see this before?
>
> Last note.. sometimes, and only sometimes, I hear a clicking when I
> turn the key to RUN. It sounds like a circuit switching on/off. During
> all this testing, I did not hear it once.
>
> >On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 16:54:11 -0600, "DougW" wrote:
> >Let's go over the basics then.
> >
> >From the front of the vehicle, remove the fuel pump relay
> >Looking into the hole:
> >
> > 7
> > |
> >
> >6| -8- |10
> >
> > -9-
> >
> >With the ignition on, hole 7 should
> >have 12V from the power center fuses 3(20A) and 15(30A)
> >(same location as the relays)
> >Also check fuse2(20A), the ASD power fuse.
> >
> >Hole 6 should also have 12V, if not check fuse 6(15A)
> >
> >Hole 9 feeds the pump and the heated O2 sensor
> >(If you found blown fuses take a look at the O2 sensor
> >and follow the wire back along the engine to where a clip
> >holds it to the block, then follow that wire up to another
> >clip up above and forward of the engine mount. sometimes
> >that wire will melt and short out. That short can/will blow
> >fuses.)
> >
> >If all looks good at this point then
> >Jumping pin 9 to pin 7 will turn the pump on.
> >
> >You should be able to hear it or watch the fuel rail
> >pressure jump.

Mike Romain

I am back a page still, or want to be....

First off you say there is a failure issue or fatal error with the
alarm. It does 'not' work because you cannot program the second key and
the idiot light is flashing failure at you or not flashing when it
should which is a failure. Something has to be 'broken' in that
situation.

Then you said you have power at the fuel pump relay but no power back at
the fuel pump.

Now you say the key sometime turns on everything properly, but most
times doesn't.

I think these are related.

I would be running a booster cable from the negative battery post to
something metal on the firewall to see what happens just because I live
in the rust belt and see too many 'rotted where you can't see them'
connections.

Then I would be trying to find out if I could bypass the alarm and
security key.

Next I would be physically tracing the power from the fuel pump relay to
see what is between that and the pump itself. I would just take a wild
guess and figure the alarm has a cut off relay in there.

Could it be a bad ignition switch causing everything?

Or could the $tealer have screwed the alarm setting when they failed to
program the second key?

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

rifleman@nojunkmail.net wrote:
>
> Ok, here's the current situation...
>
> Tested all the relays and engine compartment fuse/relay box and they
> are all fine. Checked the interior fuse panel and all is fine.
> Everything in these places is getting voltage.
>
> Here is something we (my good neighbor and I) noticed during this
> testing and starting attempts...
>
> If you turn the ignition to the RUN position, four dash lights should
> come on. 1) ABS, 2) Check Engine, 3)Airbag and 4) Seatbelt.
>
> If you turn the key to RUN, and the "Check Engine" light comes on, the
> jeep will start. If the "Check Engine" light does not come on, the
> jeep will NOT start. If you put the key in the RUN position and the
> "check engine" light does not come on, AND you leave the key in the
> RUN position, eventually the "Check Engine" light comes on and the
> jeep starts. Every time the "Check Engine" light comes on, you can
> hear the fuel pump prime and start the jeep, usually on the first try.
>
> We repeated this pattern for a good 30-60 minutes, giving different
> time intervals inbetween because sometimes the dash lights all come on
> as they should on the first trr, and we wanted to make sure it wasn't
> initial luck. We confirmed there is a definite pattern.
>
> On the very last attempt, it took longer for the light to come on.. at
> least another 20 seconds than all the other previous attempts, AND
> when the "Check Engine" light came on, so did the Security light. The
> Security light remains on for about 3-5 seconds and then went off.
>
> I know the system is running checks when the light is on, and
> sometimes something isn't letting it come on, ergo no checks and
> nofuel priming. Anyone ever see this before?
>
> Last note.. sometimes, and only sometimes, I hear a clicking when I
> turn the key to RUN. It sounds like a circuit switching on/off. During
> all this testing, I did not hear it once.
>
> >On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 16:54:11 -0600, "DougW" wrote:
> >Let's go over the basics then.
> >
> >From the front of the vehicle, remove the fuel pump relay
> >Looking into the hole:
> >
> > 7
> > |
> >
> >6| -8- |10
> >
> > -9-
> >
> >With the ignition on, hole 7 should
> >have 12V from the power center fuses 3(20A) and 15(30A)
> >(same location as the relays)
> >Also check fuse2(20A), the ASD power fuse.
> >
> >Hole 6 should also have 12V, if not check fuse 6(15A)
> >
> >Hole 9 feeds the pump and the heated O2 sensor
> >(If you found blown fuses take a look at the O2 sensor
> >and follow the wire back along the engine to where a clip
> >holds it to the block, then follow that wire up to another
> >clip up above and forward of the engine mount. sometimes
> >that wire will melt and short out. That short can/will blow
> >fuses.)
> >
> >If all looks good at this point then
> >Jumping pin 9 to pin 7 will turn the pump on.
> >
> >You should be able to hear it or watch the fuel rail
> >pressure jump.

Mike Romain

I am back a page still, or want to be....

First off you say there is a failure issue or fatal error with the
alarm. It does 'not' work because you cannot program the second key and
the idiot light is flashing failure at you or not flashing when it
should which is a failure. Something has to be 'broken' in that
situation.

Then you said you have power at the fuel pump relay but no power back at
the fuel pump.

Now you say the key sometime turns on everything properly, but most
times doesn't.

I think these are related.

I would be running a booster cable from the negative battery post to
something metal on the firewall to see what happens just because I live
in the rust belt and see too many 'rotted where you can't see them'
connections.

Then I would be trying to find out if I could bypass the alarm and
security key.

Next I would be physically tracing the power from the fuel pump relay to
see what is between that and the pump itself. I would just take a wild
guess and figure the alarm has a cut off relay in there.

Could it be a bad ignition switch causing everything?

Or could the $tealer have screwed the alarm setting when they failed to
program the second key?

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

rifleman@nojunkmail.net wrote:
>
> Ok, here's the current situation...
>
> Tested all the relays and engine compartment fuse/relay box and they
> are all fine. Checked the interior fuse panel and all is fine.
> Everything in these places is getting voltage.
>
> Here is something we (my good neighbor and I) noticed during this
> testing and starting attempts...
>
> If you turn the ignition to the RUN position, four dash lights should
> come on. 1) ABS, 2) Check Engine, 3)Airbag and 4) Seatbelt.
>
> If you turn the key to RUN, and the "Check Engine" light comes on, the
> jeep will start. If the "Check Engine" light does not come on, the
> jeep will NOT start. If you put the key in the RUN position and the
> "check engine" light does not come on, AND you leave the key in the
> RUN position, eventually the "Check Engine" light comes on and the
> jeep starts. Every time the "Check Engine" light comes on, you can
> hear the fuel pump prime and start the jeep, usually on the first try.
>
> We repeated this pattern for a good 30-60 minutes, giving different
> time intervals inbetween because sometimes the dash lights all come on
> as they should on the first trr, and we wanted to make sure it wasn't
> initial luck. We confirmed there is a definite pattern.
>
> On the very last attempt, it took longer for the light to come on.. at
> least another 20 seconds than all the other previous attempts, AND
> when the "Check Engine" light came on, so did the Security light. The
> Security light remains on for about 3-5 seconds and then went off.
>
> I know the system is running checks when the light is on, and
> sometimes something isn't letting it come on, ergo no checks and
> nofuel priming. Anyone ever see this before?
>
> Last note.. sometimes, and only sometimes, I hear a clicking when I
> turn the key to RUN. It sounds like a circuit switching on/off. During
> all this testing, I did not hear it once.
>
> >On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 16:54:11 -0600, "DougW" wrote:
> >Let's go over the basics then.
> >
> >From the front of the vehicle, remove the fuel pump relay
> >Looking into the hole:
> >
> > 7
> > |
> >
> >6| -8- |10
> >
> > -9-
> >
> >With the ignition on, hole 7 should
> >have 12V from the power center fuses 3(20A) and 15(30A)
> >(same location as the relays)
> >Also check fuse2(20A), the ASD power fuse.
> >
> >Hole 6 should also have 12V, if not check fuse 6(15A)
> >
> >Hole 9 feeds the pump and the heated O2 sensor
> >(If you found blown fuses take a look at the O2 sensor
> >and follow the wire back along the engine to where a clip
> >holds it to the block, then follow that wire up to another
> >clip up above and forward of the engine mount. sometimes
> >that wire will melt and short out. That short can/will blow
> >fuses.)
> >
> >If all looks good at this point then
> >Jumping pin 9 to pin 7 will turn the pump on.
> >
> >You should be able to hear it or watch the fuel rail
> >pressure jump.

Casper@ghostmail.cc

> "DougW" did pass the time by typing:
>
>The ECU (engine brain) is what does all the testing and lights the Check Engine
>light.

I figured as much. I know the ECM is the CPU (or brain) of the Jeep. I
just try to avoid talking about it because it ain't cheap to replace.

>Here is a few things that might help you understand how things hook up.
>
>SBECii (the computer) pdf file.
>http://www.revbeergoggles.com/temp/sbecii.pdf
>
>service book
>http://www.revbeergoggles.com/temp
>You want zj-13.jpg to zj-18.jpg
>
>I had a one-page diagram for the ECU and sensors, but I can't find
>it right now. :/

I have a few books here that contain a number of wiring diagrams, but
yours are definitely easier than thumbing thru the manuals.

Thanks for the info. I am going to do a more testing this weekend.

Couple more questions...

Should the fuel pressure be exactly 31psi? When we tested my
neighbor's 95' GC Laredo, his was about 20-21Psi. We expected 30, but
it only went up after starting, and then to about 40-41Psi.

He replaced his ECM last summer because he thought the tranny might be
getting improper signals. As it turned out, one of the tranny
connections had some broken magent pieces that were the culpprit to
his gear switching issues. Once he cleaned that up, it shifts fine.
But it may be that his starting problem began after he replaced the
ECU. He plans on swapping the old ECU back in to test. He offered me
his spare to test but not sure it would work in my 93'GC Limited.
(*Ref Post: 95' GC Laredo - Odd Power/Start Problem)

And your website is cool. :-)

Casper@ghostmail.cc

> "DougW" did pass the time by typing:
>
>The ECU (engine brain) is what does all the testing and lights the Check Engine
>light.

I figured as much. I know the ECM is the CPU (or brain) of the Jeep. I
just try to avoid talking about it because it ain't cheap to replace.

>Here is a few things that might help you understand how things hook up.
>
>SBECii (the computer) pdf file.
>http://www.revbeergoggles.com/temp/sbecii.pdf
>
>service book
>http://www.revbeergoggles.com/temp
>You want zj-13.jpg to zj-18.jpg
>
>I had a one-page diagram for the ECU and sensors, but I can't find
>it right now. :/

I have a few books here that contain a number of wiring diagrams, but
yours are definitely easier than thumbing thru the manuals.

Thanks for the info. I am going to do a more testing this weekend.

Couple more questions...

Should the fuel pressure be exactly 31psi? When we tested my
neighbor's 95' GC Laredo, his was about 20-21Psi. We expected 30, but
it only went up after starting, and then to about 40-41Psi.

He replaced his ECM last summer because he thought the tranny might be
getting improper signals. As it turned out, one of the tranny
connections had some broken magent pieces that were the culpprit to
his gear switching issues. Once he cleaned that up, it shifts fine.
But it may be that his starting problem began after he replaced the
ECU. He plans on swapping the old ECU back in to test. He offered me
his spare to test but not sure it would work in my 93'GC Limited.
(*Ref Post: 95' GC Laredo - Odd Power/Start Problem)

And your website is cool. :-)

Casper@ghostmail.cc

> "DougW" did pass the time by typing:
>
>The ECU (engine brain) is what does all the testing and lights the Check Engine
>light.

I figured as much. I know the ECM is the CPU (or brain) of the Jeep. I
just try to avoid talking about it because it ain't cheap to replace.

>Here is a few things that might help you understand how things hook up.
>
>SBECii (the computer) pdf file.
>http://www.revbeergoggles.com/temp/sbecii.pdf
>
>service book
>http://www.revbeergoggles.com/temp
>You want zj-13.jpg to zj-18.jpg
>
>I had a one-page diagram for the ECU and sensors, but I can't find
>it right now. :/

I have a few books here that contain a number of wiring diagrams, but
yours are definitely easier than thumbing thru the manuals.

Thanks for the info. I am going to do a more testing this weekend.

Couple more questions...

Should the fuel pressure be exactly 31psi? When we tested my
neighbor's 95' GC Laredo, his was about 20-21Psi. We expected 30, but
it only went up after starting, and then to about 40-41Psi.

He replaced his ECM last summer because he thought the tranny might be
getting improper signals. As it turned out, one of the tranny
connections had some broken magent pieces that were the culpprit to
his gear switching issues. Once he cleaned that up, it shifts fine.
But it may be that his starting problem began after he replaced the
ECU. He plans on swapping the old ECU back in to test. He offered me
his spare to test but not sure it would work in my 93'GC Limited.
(*Ref Post: 95' GC Laredo - Odd Power/Start Problem)

And your website is cool. :-)

Casper@ghostmail.cc

> "DougW" did pass the time by typing:
>
>The ECU (engine brain) is what does all the testing and lights the Check Engine
>light.

I figured as much. I know the ECM is the CPU (or brain) of the Jeep. I
just try to avoid talking about it because it ain't cheap to replace.

>Here is a few things that might help you understand how things hook up.
>
>SBECii (the computer) pdf file.
>http://www.revbeergoggles.com/temp/sbecii.pdf
>
>service book
>http://www.revbeergoggles.com/temp
>You want zj-13.jpg to zj-18.jpg
>
>I had a one-page diagram for the ECU and sensors, but I can't find
>it right now. :/

I have a few books here that contain a number of wiring diagrams, but
yours are definitely easier than thumbing thru the manuals.

Thanks for the info. I am going to do a more testing this weekend.

Couple more questions...

Should the fuel pressure be exactly 31psi? When we tested my
neighbor's 95' GC Laredo, his was about 20-21Psi. We expected 30, but
it only went up after starting, and then to about 40-41Psi.

He replaced his ECM last summer because he thought the tranny might be
getting improper signals. As it turned out, one of the tranny
connections had some broken magent pieces that were the culpprit to
his gear switching issues. Once he cleaned that up, it shifts fine.
But it may be that his starting problem began after he replaced the
ECU. He plans on swapping the old ECU back in to test. He offered me
his spare to test but not sure it would work in my 93'GC Limited.
(*Ref Post: 95' GC Laredo - Odd Power/Start Problem)

And your website is cool. :-)

Casper@ghostmail.cc

>On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 22:32:54 -0500, Scott in Baltimore wrote:
>sounds like an intermittant connection.
>could be a ground or a wire or a connector.
>when the light is out, start wiggling wires.

Tough to "wiggle" the wires because the light seems to only remain off
for a few seconds.So far, the longest it's been off has been about
30-35 seconds and that only occured once in about 10-15 attempts.
However, I'll wiggle the whole Jeep if it would help. ;-)

Casper@ghostmail.cc

>On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 22:32:54 -0500, Scott in Baltimore wrote:
>sounds like an intermittant connection.
>could be a ground or a wire or a connector.
>when the light is out, start wiggling wires.

Tough to "wiggle" the wires because the light seems to only remain off
for a few seconds.So far, the longest it's been off has been about
30-35 seconds and that only occured once in about 10-15 attempts.
However, I'll wiggle the whole Jeep if it would help. ;-)

Casper@ghostmail.cc

>On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 22:32:54 -0500, Scott in Baltimore wrote:
>sounds like an intermittant connection.
>could be a ground or a wire or a connector.
>when the light is out, start wiggling wires.

Tough to "wiggle" the wires because the light seems to only remain off
for a few seconds.So far, the longest it's been off has been about
30-35 seconds and that only occured once in about 10-15 attempts.
However, I'll wiggle the whole Jeep if it would help. ;-)