Simon Juncal

I'm thinking about buying an 88 Wrangler Sahara edition for a winter
beater here in VA. I've got a couple questions. I've already checked KBB
and NADA, now I'd like to get some opinions from some Jeep enthusiasts.

I'm not 100% on the mileage, somewhere in the 150k area. I'll be
checking it out again tomorrow, as I just gunked/degreased the entire
engine and drive train to look for leaks.

It has faded/oxidized paint (will look half decent after a cleaner wax
and polish), no major rust, no rust on the body panels, but small spots
at area's you'd expect to find it. Such as in torx bolt heads, on the
door hinges; again all minor.

It's a 4.2 with a single barrel carb (the VIN states it's a 2bbl) The
plastic fender flares need new paint or a strip down to the rubber. It
comes with soft and hard top, hard doors, I don't remember it having AC,
but the heat works. It has after market solid type (no holes) aluminum
rims, with 31x10.5 R15's (decent tread) The suspension was lifted at
some point. The front leafs mount to what looks like a set of cheap
aftermarket steel 1/4" stock. Not good looking but they seem functional.

Knowing this, and assuming good running condition (engine trans etc.)
what would you pay ballpark for this Jeep?

Now for the warts... The reason I asked what you'd pay if it was in good
running condition is the owner (a good friend) and I have haggled the
price down based on the work it needs to attain "good running condition"
He's borderline about selling it but doesn't have the time to fix it up.

It has: relatively new tranny (replaced last year), but reverse likes to
slip out if you don't keep your hand on it. An obvious oil leak between
the tranny and the engine. Almost certainly the main oil seal. Possibly
other Oil leaks (I'll be checking that tomorrow that's why I degreased
it). It idles, after a long warm up (but not if you kick off the choke
before it's warm), but will stall when starting out after a stop (when
applying throttle slowly the RPM's sometimes bottom out). The carb was
rebuilt but I don't think they did a good job. It will backfire out of
the carb. The engine (obviously) eats oil. There's a good coating of oil
inside the air filter housing and a blackened carb after it was cleaned
a couple months back (by me). So Oil is getting up in there. It looks
like a lot of the smog and vacuum stuff has been disconnected or
rendered useless at various times. The two vacuum operated deals on the
air intake (before the filter housing) don't seem to be functional. Oh
and the right front tire is showing odd wear and probably needs alignment.

I have a good idea of what I'm getting into, it's certainly a project...
But the rest of the Jeep is in good enough condition that it's probably
worth doing. Now what would you pay (ballpark) for a project like this
knowing it may need a new carb, work getting the sensors and vacuum
operated stuff hooked back up, possible engine rebuild. New rear seal etc?

I appreciate anyone taking the time to read all this :)

TJim

I agree. I don't know if it's for the same reasons, though.
The Wrangler is a short wheelbase Jeep. Sure, the 4wd is nice in some
conditions, but on slippery roads, most people would prefer a longer
wheelbase for stability. The Wrangler has a tendency to swap ends in icy
conditions. In addition, the Wrangler has "part-time" 4wd that you don't
want to be using on dry or partially covered road surfaces. This means you
can end up shifting back and forth between 2wd and 4wd or leaving it in 2wd
all the time.
You would be better (wheelbase wise) with a cherokee or grand cherokee. If
you're looking for a "beater", I'd seriously consider an older fsj, like the
wagoneer or grand wagoneer. A lot of these have "full-time" 4wd which can
be left in 4wd all the time with no serious consequences. They are heavy
and they have longer wheelbases. You can get one for pretty cheap if you
don't care much about the condition of the body. Even a pretty nice one can
be had for a reasonable price if you shop around a bit. Look on ebay.
Good luck,
TJim
98 TJ SE
90 SJ GW


"Cherokee-LTD" <spammenot@home.com> wrote in message
news:lgoYa.71757$4UE.61963@news01.bloor.is.net.cab le.rogers.com...
> In my opinion...
> If you're looking for an off-roader, this might be worth considering.
> If you just want a winter beater, save your money.
>
> "Simon Juncal" <sjuncal@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:3F31CE77.2070704@erols.com...
> : I'm thinking about buying an 88 Wrangler Sahara edition for a winter
> : beater here in VA. I've got a couple questions. I've already checked KBB
> : and NADA, now I'd like to get some opinions from some Jeep enthusiasts.
> :
> : I'm not 100% on the mileage, somewhere in the 150k area. I'll be
> : checking it out again tomorrow, as I just gunked/degreased the entire
> : engine and drive train to look for leaks.
> :
> : It has faded/oxidized paint (will look half decent after a cleaner wax
> : and polish), no major rust, no rust on the body panels, but small spots
> : at area's you'd expect to find it. Such as in torx bolt heads, on the
> : door hinges; again all minor.
> :
> : It's a 4.2 with a single barrel carb (the VIN states it's a 2bbl) The
> : plastic fender flares need new paint or a strip down to the rubber. It
> : comes with soft and hard top, hard doors, I don't remember it having AC,
> : but the heat works. It has after market solid type (no holes) aluminum
> : rims, with 31x10.5 R15's (decent tread) The suspension was lifted at
> : some point. The front leafs mount to what looks like a set of cheap
> : aftermarket steel 1/4" stock. Not good looking but they seem functional.
> :
> : Knowing this, and assuming good running condition (engine trans etc.)
> : what would you pay ballpark for this Jeep?
> :
> : Now for the warts... The reason I asked what you'd pay if it was in good
> : running condition is the owner (a good friend) and I have haggled the
> : price down based on the work it needs to attain "good running condition"
> : He's borderline about selling it but doesn't have the time to fix it up.
> :
> : It has: relatively new tranny (replaced last year), but reverse likes to
> : slip out if you don't keep your hand on it. An obvious oil leak between
> : the tranny and the engine. Almost certainly the main oil seal. Possibly
> : other Oil leaks (I'll be checking that tomorrow that's why I degreased
> : it). It idles, after a long warm up (but not if you kick off the choke
> : before it's warm), but will stall when starting out after a stop (when
> : applying throttle slowly the RPM's sometimes bottom out). The carb was
> : rebuilt but I don't think they did a good job. It will backfire out of
> : the carb. The engine (obviously) eats oil. There's a good coating of oil
> : inside the air filter housing and a blackened carb after it was cleaned
> : a couple months back (by me). So Oil is getting up in there. It looks
> : like a lot of the smog and vacuum stuff has been disconnected or
> : rendered useless at various times. The two vacuum operated deals on the
> : air intake (before the filter housing) don't seem to be functional. Oh
> : and the right front tire is showing odd wear and probably needs
alignment.
> :
> : I have a good idea of what I'm getting into, it's certainly a project...
> : But the rest of the Jeep is in good enough condition that it's probably
> : worth doing. Now what would you pay (ballpark) for a project like this
> : knowing it may need a new carb, work getting the sensors and vacuum
> : operated stuff hooked back up, possible engine rebuild. New rear seal
etc?
> :
> : I appreciate anyone taking the time to read all this :)
> :
>
>

J Strickland

> It has: relatively new tranny (replaced last year), but reverse likes to
> slip out if you don't keep your hand on it. An obvious oil leak between
> the tranny and the engine. Almost certainly the main oil seal. Possibly
> other Oil leaks (I'll be checking that tomorrow that's why I degreased
> it).

I would like to address the "An obvious oil leak between the tranny and
engine. Almost certainly the oil main seal." comment.

Aside from the sentence strucure problems, while it might appear to be an
obvious leak in this area, it is most likely a leak from the valve cover
gasket. The rear main is an easy enough fix to make, but the valve cover is
much easier, and the oil that is getting on or in the carb could be coming
from clogged stuff in the valve cover, stuff like the PCV .... (Find what
Mike Romain has to say about the carb, and follow his advice.)

Some of your earliest adventures in wrenching should be the valve cover, and
the carb. These two excursions through parts consumption should solve most
of the problems you are talking about.

Simon Juncal

Earle Horton wrote:
> Simon lives in Virginia. Full sized Jeeps even here in sunny Colorado tend
> to look terrible with rust. Back in Virginia they are likely to be more
> rust than metal. ;o)

Seriously it's got no bad rust. Only surface rust on area's that have
gotten the paint scratched off from taking down the top or removing the
hard doors. or just naturally collect water inside the torx bolts heads.
I had a 65 Mustang that died from VA rust, so I'm pretty diligent about
rust when buying an old vehicle.

> The Wrangler is a relatively stable vehicle on snow and ice if you learned
> to drive in a 1964 Volkswagen Beetle like I did. I realize that not
> everyone is so fortunate, so perhaps for some the following is a good
> recommendation.

I've driven everything from a Chrysler LaBaron, a friends Jeep, to a RWD
2500 pound corolla in winter. Last winter my 95 Mustang GT (5.0 V8 with
low profile performance tires) convertible suffered through, and I'm not
putting her through that blitzkrieg of salt and sand again one way or
another ;)

The Jeep (or other AWD/4x4) is 99% for getting out of my driveway and 4
odd miles of country road that typically all remain snowed in (sometimes
deeply) for a few days. It wont see a lot of ice... The other 1% of the
motivation is to have something that I can leave a bad paint job on so
the salt and sand don't matter. I recognize that the Jeep isn't going to
be good on ice, it is good (I borrowed it last winter) at making it's
own way through a foot of unplowed snow so I can get to the shop and use
the bob-cat to plow the long driveway at work.

Simon Juncal

Cherokee-LTD wrote:
> In my opinion...
> If you're looking for an off-roader, this might be worth considering.
> If you just want a winter beater, save your money.


Duely noted. Ok ignoring aplication, what are people opinions of it's
value? If it was in good working order, versus what you'd pay for a real
project which it is.

Simon Juncal

Earle Horton wrote:
> The paint is supposed to look like that. It is a special for the Sahara
> model. I met a guy who had one that a dealer had tried to polish. It
> looked terrible.
>
> If this vehicle has the original type Peugeot BA10 type transmission, this
> is bad news. Even if it has been replaced, these are a weak transmission
> and prone to failure. These can be identified by a seam down the middle
> going the length of the transmission, and held together there by bolts. It
> would be a good idea to replace the Peugeot with a later model AX-15
> (Japanese) transmission from a recycler. This would probably be an
> expensive upgrade.

Yep without looking closer I'd say that's the trans it has... Got to be
something wrong with it if reverse wont stay in...

Mike Romain

Simon Juncal wrote:
>
> Earle Horton wrote:
> > The paint is supposed to look like that. It is a special for the Sahara
> > model. I met a guy who had one that a dealer had tried to polish. It
> > looked terrible.
> >
> > If this vehicle has the original type Peugeot BA10 type transmission, this
> > is bad news. Even if it has been replaced, these are a weak transmission
> > and prone to failure. These can be identified by a seam down the middle
> > going the length of the transmission, and held together there by bolts. It
> > would be a good idea to replace the Peugeot with a later model AX-15
> > (Japanese) transmission from a recycler. This would probably be an
> > expensive upgrade.
>
> Yep without looking closer I'd say that's the trans it has... Got to be
> something wrong with it if reverse wont stay in...

Naw, a loose or broken engine or tranny mount can cause that easily.

A lot of the other things are easy fixes too....

Be sure you run a clean rag along the back of the head when it is
running, if you find oil, you have found the 'rear seal' leak... The
valve covers are sneaky.

If you buy it I will walk you through the emissions and carb junk, the
black and oil is emissions related. A kit for the carb is about $20.00.

Here in Canada, that Jeep would sell for about 2K. Just for parts if
nothing else.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Simon Juncal

J Strickland wrote:
>>It has: relatively new tranny (replaced last year), but reverse likes to
>>slip out if you don't keep your hand on it. An obvious oil leak between
>>the tranny and the engine. Almost certainly the main oil seal. Possibly
>>other Oil leaks (I'll be checking that tomorrow that's why I degreased
>>it).
>
>
> I would like to address the "An obvious oil leak between the tranny and
> engine. Almost certainly the oil main seal." comment.
>
> Aside from the sentence strucure problems,

What? My writing is perfect. Just like everyone else on usenet.
Seriously I was trying to trim down an overly long post, I definitely
got a little overzealous.

while it might appear to be an
> obvious leak in this area, it is most likely a leak from the valve cover
> gasket. The rear main is an easy enough fix to make, but the valve cover is
> much easier, and the oil that is getting on or in the carb could be coming
> from clogged stuff in the valve cover, stuff like the PCV .... (Find what
> Mike Romain has to say about the carb, and follow his advice.)
>
> Some of your earliest adventures in wrenching should be the valve cover, and
> the carb. These two excursions through parts consumption should solve most
> of the problems you are talking about.

Heheh I said much the same thing to my friend and co-worker; when I was
degreasing it top to bottom. It looked like the valve cover had been put
back on and torqued down too hard. The soft gasket silicon they used
looks like it pushed out to far (I know that's subjective); and the rear
of the cover is so buried into the firewall that a leak back there is
going to take feeling around to find. Anyway I suspect it's the rear
main because after degreasing I started it up and let it sit in a new
spot... Judging from the speed of the leak (maybe a drip a minute), and
how quickly it showed back up (right away), it's closer to the rear
seal. I.e. further down on the engine. Otherwise I think it would take
longer for the first drip to appear. Of course I could be wrong, and
will be checking closer today.

Earle Horton

"Simon Juncal" <sjuncal@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3F329166.4010007@erols.com...
>
>
> Cherokee-LTD wrote:
> > In my opinion...
> > If you're looking for an off-roader, this might be worth considering.
> > If you just want a winter beater, save your money.
>
>
> Duely noted. Ok ignoring aplication, what are people opinions of it's
> value? If it was in good working order, versus what you'd pay for a real
> project which it is.
>
If it is really no rust as you said in another post I would pay up to about
80% of N.A.D.A. Blue Book value, whatever that is. I wouldn't expect a
vehicle that old in Virginia to have an intact floor. I would be looking
for a recycler to upgrade to the later AX-15 transmission though.

Earle

J Strickland

"Simon Juncal" <sjuncal@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3F3297F6.4000409@erols.com...
>
>
> J Strickland wrote:
> >>It has: relatively new tranny (replaced last year), but reverse likes to
> >>slip out if you don't keep your hand on it. An obvious oil leak between
> >>the tranny and the engine. Almost certainly the main oil seal. Possibly
> >>other Oil leaks (I'll be checking that tomorrow that's why I degreased
> >>it).
> >
> >
> > I would like to address the "An obvious oil leak between the tranny and
> > engine. Almost certainly the oil main seal." comment.
> >
> > Aside from the sentence strucure problems,
>
> What? My writing is perfect. Just like everyone else on usenet.
> Seriously I was trying to trim down an overly long post, I definitely
> got a little overzealous.
>

No problem. I have a crude sense of humor, and you just got in the way.



> while it might appear to be an
> > obvious leak in this area, it is most likely a leak from the valve cover
> > gasket. The rear main is an easy enough fix to make, but the valve cover
is
> > much easier, and the oil that is getting on or in the carb could be
coming
> > from clogged stuff in the valve cover, stuff like the PCV .... (Find
what
> > Mike Romain has to say about the carb, and follow his advice.)
> >
> > Some of your earliest adventures in wrenching should be the valve cover,
and
> > the carb. These two excursions through parts consumption should solve
most
> > of the problems you are talking about.
>
> Heheh I said much the same thing to my friend and co-worker; when I was
> degreasing it top to bottom. It looked like the valve cover had been put
> back on and torqued down too hard. The soft gasket silicon they used
> looks like it pushed out to far (I know that's subjective); and the rear
> of the cover is so buried into the firewall that a leak back there is
> going to take feeling around to find. Anyway I suspect it's the rear
> main because after degreasing I started it up and let it sit in a new
> spot... Judging from the speed of the leak (maybe a drip a minute), and
> how quickly it showed back up (right away), it's closer to the rear
> seal. I.e. further down on the engine. Otherwise I think it would take
> longer for the first drip to appear. Of course I could be wrong, and
> will be checking closer today.
>

You _could_ be right, but probably aren't. I came to the same conclusion as
you did, twice, and was wrong.

Think about it for a moment, the engine is in the engine bay with the front
higher than the back by about an inch and a half. The oil gets pumped to the
top, and flows back down through the pushrod holes. The oil will run towards
the back of the motor and pool there waiting for its turn to drip down the
pushrods. If the gasket is not intact, the oil will flow out and run down
the block and into the bellhousing, then come out of the inspection plate in
a manner that appears to be the rear main seal.

One test is to park so the front is downhill, and see if it still drips. A
clue is that the motor is very close to the firewall and there is a mess of
wires in the way, what are the odds that somebody put the cover on and let
the gasket get away? The odds are pretty good I think ...