Jerry Newton

I suppose if you oversimplify it, then you do have it both ways. However,
if you really think about it, you are only getting what you pay for.

When you go to "Joe's Garage" for example, you get a discounted labor rate,
and you get a break on the parts price. What did you get for less money?
You got a guy that has no training and likely very little experience on your
specific vehicle, and you got the cheapest aftermarket parts that the guy
could find from the local parts house. Napa and others would like you to
believe that their stuff is as good as the factory stuff, but it just isn't.
Most of the time, you are getting a "remanufactured part" (read that: put
back together with as little cost as possible).

Couple this aftermarket part with the fact that the guy installing it is
experimenting on your vehicle, learning as he goes. I know, I have been
there. It is tough to work in small shops, because you are expected to be
an expert on every year, make and model, and nobody is. Sometimes, you have
to gamble with the customer's money because you don't have the skills or
resources to make an accurate diagnosis.

When the commercials say that Mr. Goodwrench is factory-trained, that is
what that means. We travel to regional training centers and are taught in a
hands-on environment on very specific subject matters and vehicle systems.
In my case, I am a GM tech. I work on all models of GM cars and trucks, but
most specifically, I am a Cadillac guy. I have spent more hours training
and studying GM powertrain than I can count. When you bring your car to me,
and tell me that it makes a funny noise when you start it cold, or the
steering wheel has a rattle in it, I know what is wrong with it before I
even see your vehicle, because this is what I do all day every day. People
think I am a genius because I go right to the source of their problem. I am
no genius. I am simply doing what you pay me to do. You came to my
dealership because you wanted the best guy to work on your car. I am giving
that to customers, and they don't bitch much about the labor rate. Most of
them know what they are paying for.

What does it cost to run a business? If you are a GM dealer, you pay tens
of thousands per month for the franchise. In return for that, one of the
things you have access to is a never-ending network of support personnel to
help you solve a problem. I can speak directly to field engineers or
technical assistance gurus. I can locate the specific part that I need for
your car in seconds, no matter where it is in the world. I have GM
management types that I can rely upon to make decisions about the best
course of action for your car (should I put a crankshaft in this car, or
should I replace the engine?). This franchise expense, of course, is in
addition to the physical plant. Buildings, lifts, transmission jacks,
engine stands, brake lathes, scan tools, and special tools specific to GM
products cost a lot of money, too. Not to mention my personal expenditure
of about $75,000 sitting in my toolbox, waiting to make me a living. People
think that I must exaggerate the cost of tools, but I can assure you that
this is no exaggeration. Where do you think the money comes from to pay for
these things? It comes from the $70 or so that the dealership charges as an
hourly labor rate, a portion of which is mine.

Sure, the distributor replacement was going to cost a tidy sum of cash, and
you opted to go aftermarket, and do it yourself. Hey, more power to ya.
Say that job pays the tech 1.0 hours of labor. That means that he does that
job for the predetermined price of 1.0 hours of his pay. That is regardless
of how much time it actually takes him. If it takes him 2.5 hours to get it
done, he isn't likely to try to charge you for that, unless there were some
strange circumstances. But look how cranked up you are about paying him an
hour of labor, knowing that he will have it done in 20 minutes. The tech
has to make his living across the board, not just fixing the things that
nobody else could figure out. We need some no-brainer, easy work to mix in
with the ***-kicking, intermittent transmission downshift while going
downhill in the rain during a full moon on Tuesdays.

I guess I said what I wanted to say. Having done that, I hope that you
continue to fix things yourself, or go to the local garage, because quite
frankly, I really don't want you for a customer. When I am faced with
charging a customer for a repair, I make a habit of looking at the service
history to see what kind of customer he is. If he has only come to me for
warranty repairs or things that Joe's Garage couldn't fix, I am gonna get
every penny I have coming to me, and not a penny more. If he has been to my
shop for every thing that goes wrong, and pays the bill without bitching, I
am way more prone to throwing him a bone once in awhile. I don't know what
business you are in, but I am sure that you don't do things any differently.
People are just more naturally pissed off at mechanics.


Jerry









"DougW" <post.replies@invalid.address> wrote in message
news:Fpyxb.16423$Gj2.12317@okepread01...
> Jerry Newton did pass the time by typing:
> > Hey hey hey, go easy on the dealer techs. You don't hesitate to bring
us
> > the things that you can't figure out, but you wanna crap on us when it's
> > time to get some maintenance done. Can't have it both ways, Doug.
>
> Actually I can, and while I have no problem with most dealerships some
> are simply out to screw the customer out of as much as they can. The hour
> costs are egregious for basic maintenance. At least double that of any
> decent local mechanic.
>
> Let me put this in perspective. How much does the dealer charge to change
> the transfer case fluid in a 93 ZJ Quadratrack? They charge enough that
> I was able to buy a snap-on socket to fit the fill and drain plugs, the
> ATF fluid, a small plastic pump to reach up there, and still had money
> left over for beer.
>
> The procedure? 1) take both plugs out and let case drain, 2) put lower
> plug back in and fill case till it comes out the top, 3) put top plug
> back in.
>
> As for competency. I have experienced both ends of the spectrum,
> fortunately the poorest when the Jeep was still under warrantee.
> Two of my best experiences:
>
> One was replacing the distributor. After the chief mechanic looked
> up the price for part and maintenance he called back and said it would
> be about $410.00, 195 for the part and 215 for service. In his words
> "Utter -------- for such an easy job." I knew the NAPA part is only
> $80 and with the simple instructions he gave me vs. the FSM, it took
> under 20min to do the whole thing, even stopping to take pictures.
> http://members.***.net/wilsond/distributor/
>
> The other was when I was having problems with the ABS failing as the
> Jeep went over bumps. The mechanic looked, tested, looked, swapped
> parts, tested, looked, and literally an hour later talked to me about
> the problem and how it was "moving." We both worked on it and even
> swapped out the brains. Problem came and went. Finally the only thing
> it could be was gremlins. One of the other mechanics stopped by to look
> and mentioned that the way they designed that POS the rain drips right
> on the connector. "you should clean that out or it's gonna cause all
> sorts of problem." So we grabbed a can of contact cleaner, sprayed the
> connector, stuck my old ABS computer back in there, and the problem was
> gone.
>
> Both of us muttered, "well, ----!" He explained about having to bill for
> time and I had no problem with that at all. Road salt had gotten into
> the connector and was screwing up the brains just enough that sensors
> would indicate faulty when they weren't. I chalked it up to an expensive
> lesson in cleaning the connectors first.
>
> Long story short. I don't have a problem with any mechanic as
> long as they are ethical in dealing with customers.
>
> --
> -- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.***.net/wilsond
> HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks
> Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors
>
>
>

Lon Stowell

Approximately 11/28/03 17:46, Jerry Newton posted rather one-sidedly:
> I suppose if you oversimplify it, then you do have it both ways. However,
> if you really think about it, you are only getting what you pay for.
>
> When you go to "Joe's Garage" for example, you get a discounted labor rate,
> and you get a break on the parts price. What did you get for less money?
> You got a guy that has no training and likely very little experience on your
> specific vehicle, and you got the cheapest aftermarket parts that the guy
> could find from the local parts house. Napa and others would like you to
> believe that their stuff is as good as the factory stuff, but it just isn't.
> Most of the time, you are getting a "remanufactured part" (read that: put
> back together with as little cost as possible).

--------.

Gee. And here I always believed the guy that he used to be a
mechanic and even service supervisor for a dealer, but finally
got enough money to open a small brand specialty shop. I must
admit actually seeing him at that dealership did lend credence
to his story. And now you are telling me that this doesn't
happen and therefore this guy and I must be mistaken.

As for skill level, I have *yet* to meet a dealer mechanic
that was as good as the small independent specialty shops.
This may be why some of the dealers will even be honest enough
to recommend one or more of these small shops in the area for
difficult or specialty work...or pretty much any custom work
beyond bread and butter dealer work.

You're pretty onesided here, enough so that I have to publicly
bring your honesty and integrity into question.


--
Still a Raiders fan, but no longer sure why.

Lon Stowell

Approximately 11/28/03 17:46, Jerry Newton posted rather one-sidedly:
> I suppose if you oversimplify it, then you do have it both ways. However,
> if you really think about it, you are only getting what you pay for.
>
> When you go to "Joe's Garage" for example, you get a discounted labor rate,
> and you get a break on the parts price. What did you get for less money?
> You got a guy that has no training and likely very little experience on your
> specific vehicle, and you got the cheapest aftermarket parts that the guy
> could find from the local parts house. Napa and others would like you to
> believe that their stuff is as good as the factory stuff, but it just isn't.
> Most of the time, you are getting a "remanufactured part" (read that: put
> back together with as little cost as possible).

--------.

Gee. And here I always believed the guy that he used to be a
mechanic and even service supervisor for a dealer, but finally
got enough money to open a small brand specialty shop. I must
admit actually seeing him at that dealership did lend credence
to his story. And now you are telling me that this doesn't
happen and therefore this guy and I must be mistaken.

As for skill level, I have *yet* to meet a dealer mechanic
that was as good as the small independent specialty shops.
This may be why some of the dealers will even be honest enough
to recommend one or more of these small shops in the area for
difficult or specialty work...or pretty much any custom work
beyond bread and butter dealer work.

You're pretty onesided here, enough so that I have to publicly
bring your honesty and integrity into question.


--
Still a Raiders fan, but no longer sure why.

Lon Stowell

Approximately 11/28/03 17:46, Jerry Newton posted rather one-sidedly:
> I suppose if you oversimplify it, then you do have it both ways. However,
> if you really think about it, you are only getting what you pay for.
>
> When you go to "Joe's Garage" for example, you get a discounted labor rate,
> and you get a break on the parts price. What did you get for less money?
> You got a guy that has no training and likely very little experience on your
> specific vehicle, and you got the cheapest aftermarket parts that the guy
> could find from the local parts house. Napa and others would like you to
> believe that their stuff is as good as the factory stuff, but it just isn't.
> Most of the time, you are getting a "remanufactured part" (read that: put
> back together with as little cost as possible).

--------.

Gee. And here I always believed the guy that he used to be a
mechanic and even service supervisor for a dealer, but finally
got enough money to open a small brand specialty shop. I must
admit actually seeing him at that dealership did lend credence
to his story. And now you are telling me that this doesn't
happen and therefore this guy and I must be mistaken.

As for skill level, I have *yet* to meet a dealer mechanic
that was as good as the small independent specialty shops.
This may be why some of the dealers will even be honest enough
to recommend one or more of these small shops in the area for
difficult or specialty work...or pretty much any custom work
beyond bread and butter dealer work.

You're pretty onesided here, enough so that I have to publicly
bring your honesty and integrity into question.


--
Still a Raiders fan, but no longer sure why.

Jerry Newton

I don't have a problem with you bringing my honesty and integrity into
question. I sleep well at night. Nobody pipes up and responds when you
make a blanket statement regarding "stealerships", a term I see thrown
around quite a bit.

Congrats to your buddy that opened his own shop. I hope he has much
success. However, he is the exception, not the norm.

I am also glad that you have a good relationship with your mechanic. It's
like having a relationship with your family doctor, you need to be able to
rely upon your mechanic as well. Your doctor and your mechanic will both
make mistakes, but they probably have enough "honesty and integrity" to step
up and make it right.

If you have yet to meet a dealer tech that can keep up with your local
garage, then you have lived a sheltered life, my little Jeeping friend. I
am sorry that you feel so strongly against dealer techs. As I advised the
other fella, I hope you continue to have a nice relationship with your
mechanic, because I don't really need your business. You aren't alone -- I
have people in my shop every day that insist that the corner mechanic would
have fixed it cheaper, or better, or faster. I tell them to go ahead and
have it done elsewhere, but the overwhelming majority come back to me. The
quality of the job is remembered long after price is forgotten. I didn't
make that up, somebody else did, but it applies.

You really gotta calm down, Lon. Try switching to decaf.


Jerry


"Lon Stowell" <LonDot.Stowell@ComcastPeriod.Net> wrote in message
news:z%Sxb.345782$Fm2.349848@attbi_s04...
> Approximately 11/28/03 17:46, Jerry Newton posted rather one-sidedly:
> > I suppose if you oversimplify it, then you do have it both ways.
However,
> > if you really think about it, you are only getting what you pay for.
> >
> > When you go to "Joe's Garage" for example, you get a discounted labor
rate,
> > and you get a break on the parts price. What did you get for less
money?
> > You got a guy that has no training and likely very little experience on
your
> > specific vehicle, and you got the cheapest aftermarket parts that the
guy
> > could find from the local parts house. Napa and others would like you
to
> > believe that their stuff is as good as the factory stuff, but it just
isn't.
> > Most of the time, you are getting a "remanufactured part" (read that:
put
> > back together with as little cost as possible).
>
> --------.
>
> Gee. And here I always believed the guy that he used to be a
> mechanic and even service supervisor for a dealer, but finally
> got enough money to open a small brand specialty shop. I must
> admit actually seeing him at that dealership did lend credence
> to his story. And now you are telling me that this doesn't
> happen and therefore this guy and I must be mistaken.
>
> As for skill level, I have *yet* to meet a dealer mechanic
> that was as good as the small independent specialty shops.
> This may be why some of the dealers will even be honest enough
> to recommend one or more of these small shops in the area for
> difficult or specialty work...or pretty much any custom work
> beyond bread and butter dealer work.
>
> You're pretty onesided here, enough so that I have to publicly
> bring your honesty and integrity into question.
>
>
> --
> Still a Raiders fan, but no longer sure why.
>

Jerry Newton

I don't have a problem with you bringing my honesty and integrity into
question. I sleep well at night. Nobody pipes up and responds when you
make a blanket statement regarding "stealerships", a term I see thrown
around quite a bit.

Congrats to your buddy that opened his own shop. I hope he has much
success. However, he is the exception, not the norm.

I am also glad that you have a good relationship with your mechanic. It's
like having a relationship with your family doctor, you need to be able to
rely upon your mechanic as well. Your doctor and your mechanic will both
make mistakes, but they probably have enough "honesty and integrity" to step
up and make it right.

If you have yet to meet a dealer tech that can keep up with your local
garage, then you have lived a sheltered life, my little Jeeping friend. I
am sorry that you feel so strongly against dealer techs. As I advised the
other fella, I hope you continue to have a nice relationship with your
mechanic, because I don't really need your business. You aren't alone -- I
have people in my shop every day that insist that the corner mechanic would
have fixed it cheaper, or better, or faster. I tell them to go ahead and
have it done elsewhere, but the overwhelming majority come back to me. The
quality of the job is remembered long after price is forgotten. I didn't
make that up, somebody else did, but it applies.

You really gotta calm down, Lon. Try switching to decaf.


Jerry


"Lon Stowell" <LonDot.Stowell@ComcastPeriod.Net> wrote in message
news:z%Sxb.345782$Fm2.349848@attbi_s04...
> Approximately 11/28/03 17:46, Jerry Newton posted rather one-sidedly:
> > I suppose if you oversimplify it, then you do have it both ways.
However,
> > if you really think about it, you are only getting what you pay for.
> >
> > When you go to "Joe's Garage" for example, you get a discounted labor
rate,
> > and you get a break on the parts price. What did you get for less
money?
> > You got a guy that has no training and likely very little experience on
your
> > specific vehicle, and you got the cheapest aftermarket parts that the
guy
> > could find from the local parts house. Napa and others would like you
to
> > believe that their stuff is as good as the factory stuff, but it just
isn't.
> > Most of the time, you are getting a "remanufactured part" (read that:
put
> > back together with as little cost as possible).
>
> --------.
>
> Gee. And here I always believed the guy that he used to be a
> mechanic and even service supervisor for a dealer, but finally
> got enough money to open a small brand specialty shop. I must
> admit actually seeing him at that dealership did lend credence
> to his story. And now you are telling me that this doesn't
> happen and therefore this guy and I must be mistaken.
>
> As for skill level, I have *yet* to meet a dealer mechanic
> that was as good as the small independent specialty shops.
> This may be why some of the dealers will even be honest enough
> to recommend one or more of these small shops in the area for
> difficult or specialty work...or pretty much any custom work
> beyond bread and butter dealer work.
>
> You're pretty onesided here, enough so that I have to publicly
> bring your honesty and integrity into question.
>
>
> --
> Still a Raiders fan, but no longer sure why.
>

Jerry Newton

I don't have a problem with you bringing my honesty and integrity into
question. I sleep well at night. Nobody pipes up and responds when you
make a blanket statement regarding "stealerships", a term I see thrown
around quite a bit.

Congrats to your buddy that opened his own shop. I hope he has much
success. However, he is the exception, not the norm.

I am also glad that you have a good relationship with your mechanic. It's
like having a relationship with your family doctor, you need to be able to
rely upon your mechanic as well. Your doctor and your mechanic will both
make mistakes, but they probably have enough "honesty and integrity" to step
up and make it right.

If you have yet to meet a dealer tech that can keep up with your local
garage, then you have lived a sheltered life, my little Jeeping friend. I
am sorry that you feel so strongly against dealer techs. As I advised the
other fella, I hope you continue to have a nice relationship with your
mechanic, because I don't really need your business. You aren't alone -- I
have people in my shop every day that insist that the corner mechanic would
have fixed it cheaper, or better, or faster. I tell them to go ahead and
have it done elsewhere, but the overwhelming majority come back to me. The
quality of the job is remembered long after price is forgotten. I didn't
make that up, somebody else did, but it applies.

You really gotta calm down, Lon. Try switching to decaf.


Jerry


"Lon Stowell" <LonDot.Stowell@ComcastPeriod.Net> wrote in message
news:z%Sxb.345782$Fm2.349848@attbi_s04...
> Approximately 11/28/03 17:46, Jerry Newton posted rather one-sidedly:
> > I suppose if you oversimplify it, then you do have it both ways.
However,
> > if you really think about it, you are only getting what you pay for.
> >
> > When you go to "Joe's Garage" for example, you get a discounted labor
rate,
> > and you get a break on the parts price. What did you get for less
money?
> > You got a guy that has no training and likely very little experience on
your
> > specific vehicle, and you got the cheapest aftermarket parts that the
guy
> > could find from the local parts house. Napa and others would like you
to
> > believe that their stuff is as good as the factory stuff, but it just
isn't.
> > Most of the time, you are getting a "remanufactured part" (read that:
put
> > back together with as little cost as possible).
>
> --------.
>
> Gee. And here I always believed the guy that he used to be a
> mechanic and even service supervisor for a dealer, but finally
> got enough money to open a small brand specialty shop. I must
> admit actually seeing him at that dealership did lend credence
> to his story. And now you are telling me that this doesn't
> happen and therefore this guy and I must be mistaken.
>
> As for skill level, I have *yet* to meet a dealer mechanic
> that was as good as the small independent specialty shops.
> This may be why some of the dealers will even be honest enough
> to recommend one or more of these small shops in the area for
> difficult or specialty work...or pretty much any custom work
> beyond bread and butter dealer work.
>
> You're pretty onesided here, enough so that I have to publicly
> bring your honesty and integrity into question.
>
>
> --
> Still a Raiders fan, but no longer sure why.
>

Lon Stowell

Approximately 11/28/03 18:16, Jerry Newton uttered for posterity:

> I don't have a problem with you bringing my honesty and integrity into
> question. I sleep well at night. Nobody pipes up and responds when you
> make a blanket statement regarding "stealerships", a term I see thrown
> around quite a bit.

I'll bring it into question yet once more. Actually now I'll just
call you an out and out liar since I have never in my life used the
term "stealership" on any usenet forum or anywhere else. In fact
if you weren't such a knee-jerk liar, you might have noticed that
I have on many occasions made good comments about my local dealer
and the service manager's rather candid good advice.

>
> Congrats to your buddy that opened his own shop. I hope he has much
> success. However, he is the exception, not the norm.

--------.

--
This bozo doesn't deserve a sig.

Lon Stowell

Approximately 11/28/03 18:16, Jerry Newton uttered for posterity:

> I don't have a problem with you bringing my honesty and integrity into
> question. I sleep well at night. Nobody pipes up and responds when you
> make a blanket statement regarding "stealerships", a term I see thrown
> around quite a bit.

I'll bring it into question yet once more. Actually now I'll just
call you an out and out liar since I have never in my life used the
term "stealership" on any usenet forum or anywhere else. In fact
if you weren't such a knee-jerk liar, you might have noticed that
I have on many occasions made good comments about my local dealer
and the service manager's rather candid good advice.

>
> Congrats to your buddy that opened his own shop. I hope he has much
> success. However, he is the exception, not the norm.

--------.

--
This bozo doesn't deserve a sig.

Lon Stowell

Approximately 11/28/03 18:16, Jerry Newton uttered for posterity:

> I don't have a problem with you bringing my honesty and integrity into
> question. I sleep well at night. Nobody pipes up and responds when you
> make a blanket statement regarding "stealerships", a term I see thrown
> around quite a bit.

I'll bring it into question yet once more. Actually now I'll just
call you an out and out liar since I have never in my life used the
term "stealership" on any usenet forum or anywhere else. In fact
if you weren't such a knee-jerk liar, you might have noticed that
I have on many occasions made good comments about my local dealer
and the service manager's rather candid good advice.

>
> Congrats to your buddy that opened his own shop. I hope he has much
> success. However, he is the exception, not the norm.

--------.

--
This bozo doesn't deserve a sig.