Mike Romain

Gotcha now....

The brake and signal light element uses the fixture for the ground
connection. The running lights use a wire in the harness that screws
into the body for a ground.

You very likely have dirty/rusty bolts holding that one light fixture in
place.

I test them with a long booster cable. I tag the battery negative and
the fixture or the outside case of the bulb if I can get the cable clamp
on it or just use it as the source for the ground when testing the
power.

Folks also lose a brake or signal sometimes when they put brush guards
on the tail lights. This moves the bolts out to rusty spots.

Mike


Ben Black wrote:
>
> Right...sorry for the confusion.
>
> I'm actually talking about a bunch of different sets of lights throughout my
> posting. I went through all of my troubleshooting, but let me try to
> simplify better.
>
> When I lift the lever to activate the right turn signal, the front and side
> turn lights come on. They don't flash, nor does the dash make the expected
> clicking sound of the turn signal. The rear light doesn't come on at all.
> Secondary to that, the rear right brake light doesn't work. Other than
> using the same high wattage filament of the dual filamant bulb in the rear
> light assembly, I'm not sure what the connection is.
>
> The bulb is good. All of the other lights work. I'm just not getting any
> voltage in the wires that power those two lights. If it were a problem in
> the column, why would that affect the brake light? If it were a problem
> somewhere in the circuitry of the turn signal, again, why would that affect
> the brake light? However, if it were a problem with the brake light, why
> would that affect the blinking of the turn signal? There's obviously some
> problem between the column and fuse box, but I'm not sure where it could be.
>
> As a side note, why would they run different circuits for the three brake
> lights (right left and center)? Wouldn't it be smarter to only run one wire
> and split it off at the end? Or would that have required a larger diameter
> wire thereby making the engineers want to run three seperate wires that were
> the same size...
>
> ~Ben
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:4038C736.690B720B@sympatico.ca...
> > Please try explaining this again.
> >
> > You say the lights 'turn on' in one sentence and no brake light in
> > another. Which is it or is it both?
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> >
> > Ben Black wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey, I haven't posted here in a few years, but I'm back with a problem
> that
> > > has me stumped.
> > >
> > > My rear right turn signal is out. When I lift the lever to turn right,
> the
> > > remaining two lights don't flash, they just turn on. So I went through
> the
> > > normal checklist. I changed the bulb, but that didn't fix anything. I
> > > checked the connector to the light box. That wasn't the problem. So I
> got
> > > out the DMM and started looking at voltages of the wires leading into
> the
> > > rear right light. The running light works (which is the lower wattage
> > > filament in the same bulb that makes the turn signal). The brake light
> > > doesn't work (the same filament as the turn signal), and obviously the
> turn
> > > signal doesn't work.
> > >
> > > I moved back up the electrical steam toward the dash and checked the
> > > voltages in the wires just as they come by the parking break. Again, I
> get
> > > a 12v signal to the running light but no signal in the wire that lights
> the
> > > brake light or the turn signal.
> > >
> > > I've checked fuses...I've checked bulbs...I'm all out of ideas of simple
> > > fixes. I only have two more thoughts, but before I went too far with
> them,
> > > I wanted to see if anyone else had any ideas. I'm thinking that the
> problem
> > > might be in the relay that makes the light circuit go on and off.
> However,
> > > I would think that might affect all of my turn signals and not just the
> > > right rear one. My last resort is that it's something wrong in the
> column
> > > in the lever and turn signal switch itself. That'll be a pain to do
> > > anything with, so I wanted some advice before I started tearing the
> steering
> > > column apart.
> > >
> > > ~Ben
> > >
> > > 93 yj (named Fletch)

Mike Romain

Gotcha now....

The brake and signal light element uses the fixture for the ground
connection. The running lights use a wire in the harness that screws
into the body for a ground.

You very likely have dirty/rusty bolts holding that one light fixture in
place.

I test them with a long booster cable. I tag the battery negative and
the fixture or the outside case of the bulb if I can get the cable clamp
on it or just use it as the source for the ground when testing the
power.

Folks also lose a brake or signal sometimes when they put brush guards
on the tail lights. This moves the bolts out to rusty spots.

Mike


Ben Black wrote:
>
> Right...sorry for the confusion.
>
> I'm actually talking about a bunch of different sets of lights throughout my
> posting. I went through all of my troubleshooting, but let me try to
> simplify better.
>
> When I lift the lever to activate the right turn signal, the front and side
> turn lights come on. They don't flash, nor does the dash make the expected
> clicking sound of the turn signal. The rear light doesn't come on at all.
> Secondary to that, the rear right brake light doesn't work. Other than
> using the same high wattage filament of the dual filamant bulb in the rear
> light assembly, I'm not sure what the connection is.
>
> The bulb is good. All of the other lights work. I'm just not getting any
> voltage in the wires that power those two lights. If it were a problem in
> the column, why would that affect the brake light? If it were a problem
> somewhere in the circuitry of the turn signal, again, why would that affect
> the brake light? However, if it were a problem with the brake light, why
> would that affect the blinking of the turn signal? There's obviously some
> problem between the column and fuse box, but I'm not sure where it could be.
>
> As a side note, why would they run different circuits for the three brake
> lights (right left and center)? Wouldn't it be smarter to only run one wire
> and split it off at the end? Or would that have required a larger diameter
> wire thereby making the engineers want to run three seperate wires that were
> the same size...
>
> ~Ben
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:4038C736.690B720B@sympatico.ca...
> > Please try explaining this again.
> >
> > You say the lights 'turn on' in one sentence and no brake light in
> > another. Which is it or is it both?
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> >
> > Ben Black wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey, I haven't posted here in a few years, but I'm back with a problem
> that
> > > has me stumped.
> > >
> > > My rear right turn signal is out. When I lift the lever to turn right,
> the
> > > remaining two lights don't flash, they just turn on. So I went through
> the
> > > normal checklist. I changed the bulb, but that didn't fix anything. I
> > > checked the connector to the light box. That wasn't the problem. So I
> got
> > > out the DMM and started looking at voltages of the wires leading into
> the
> > > rear right light. The running light works (which is the lower wattage
> > > filament in the same bulb that makes the turn signal). The brake light
> > > doesn't work (the same filament as the turn signal), and obviously the
> turn
> > > signal doesn't work.
> > >
> > > I moved back up the electrical steam toward the dash and checked the
> > > voltages in the wires just as they come by the parking break. Again, I
> get
> > > a 12v signal to the running light but no signal in the wire that lights
> the
> > > brake light or the turn signal.
> > >
> > > I've checked fuses...I've checked bulbs...I'm all out of ideas of simple
> > > fixes. I only have two more thoughts, but before I went too far with
> them,
> > > I wanted to see if anyone else had any ideas. I'm thinking that the
> problem
> > > might be in the relay that makes the light circuit go on and off.
> However,
> > > I would think that might affect all of my turn signals and not just the
> > > right rear one. My last resort is that it's something wrong in the
> column
> > > in the lever and turn signal switch itself. That'll be a pain to do
> > > anything with, so I wanted some advice before I started tearing the
> steering
> > > column apart.
> > >
> > > ~Ben
> > >
> > > 93 yj (named Fletch)

Lee Ayrton

This is roughly (very simplified) how it works:


[+]_______[flasher]___.
.____________@________[ground]
[+]_______./ .________./ rear
Brake signal light
Switch switch

With the brakes off and the signal switch in the canceled position, no
power can get to the rear light.



[+]_______[flasher]___.
.____________@________[ground]
[+]_______.__.________./ rear
Brake signal light
Switch switch

With the brakes on power flows through the canceled signal switch to the
rear light in "brake" mode.



[+]_______[flasher]___.
\.____________@________[ground]
[+]_______./ .________. rear
Brake signal light
Switch switch

With the brakes off and the signal switch in turn mode, power flows
through the flasher, the switch and on to the rear light in "signal" mode.



[+]_______[flasher]___.
\.____________@________[ground]
[+]_______.__.________. rear
Brake signal light
Switch switch

With the brakes on and the signal switch in turn mode, no power flows from
the brake switch, but power does flow from the flasher, leaving that side
in "signal" mode (otherwise the brake switch would negate the flasher
and the light wouldn't blink.)

Of course, once you get inside the switch it gets a lot more complex than
that, because you've got control over the front lamps, a mirror-image
set-up for the left side and 4-way flasher controls and so on, but still,
if the switch (or its harness) has failed, you get this:


[+]_______[flasher]___.
.____________@________[ground]
[+]_______./ .________. rear
Brake signal light
Switch switch

Power can't get from either the brake switch nor the flasher. No rear
light in either mode. Without enough load on the thermal flasher, the
front lights stay on when you try to signal.




On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Ben Black wrote:

> Bill,
> I'm not sure I follow. The rear turn signal never comes on. Nor do the
> front two ever flash. What does the electrical circuit of the right turn
> signals have to do with the circuit for the brake? Thanks.
> ~Ben
>
> "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
> news:4038561E.9B6D5447@***.net...
> > Hi Ben,
> > If you switch the turn signal to the right turn position and only
> > the front right lights, then you push it further up and that will add
> > the rear light, then it must be in your switch. More than likely you
> > will have no brake lights if you turn the signal is in the left turn
> > position.
> > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> >
> > Ben Black wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey, I haven't posted here in a few years, but I'm back with a problem
> that
> > > has me stumped.
> > >
> > > My rear right turn signal is out. When I lift the lever to turn right,
> the
> > > remaining two lights don't flash, they just turn on. So I went through
> the
> > > normal checklist. I changed the bulb, but that didn't fix anything. I
> > > checked the connector to the light box. That wasn't the problem. SoI
> got
> > > out the DMM and started looking at voltages of the wires leading into
> the
> > > rear right light. The running light works (which is the lower wattage
> > > filament in the same bulb that makes the turn signal). The brake light
> > > doesn't work (the same filament as the turn signal), and obviously the
> turn
> > > signal doesn't work.
> > >
> > > I moved back up the electrical steam toward the dash and checked the
> > > voltages in the wires just as they come by the parking break. Again,I
> get
> > > a 12v signal to the running light but no signal in the wire that lights
> the
> > > brake light or the turn signal.
> > >
> > > I've checked fuses...I've checked bulbs...I'm all out of ideas of simple
> > > fixes. I only have two more thoughts, but before I went too far with
> them,
> > > I wanted to see if anyone else had any ideas. I'm thinking that the
> problem
> > > might be in the relay that makes the light circuit go on and off.
> However,
> > > I would think that might affect all of my turn signals and not just the
> > > right rear one. My last resort is that it's something wrong in the
> column
> > > in the lever and turn signal switch itself. That'll be a pain to do
> > > anything with, so I wanted some advice before I started tearing the
> steering
> > > column apart.
> > >
> > > ~Ben
> > >
> > > 93 yj (named Fletch)
>
>
>

Lee Ayrton

This is roughly (very simplified) how it works:


[+]_______[flasher]___.
.____________@________[ground]
[+]_______./ .________./ rear
Brake signal light
Switch switch

With the brakes off and the signal switch in the canceled position, no
power can get to the rear light.



[+]_______[flasher]___.
.____________@________[ground]
[+]_______.__.________./ rear
Brake signal light
Switch switch

With the brakes on power flows through the canceled signal switch to the
rear light in "brake" mode.



[+]_______[flasher]___.
\.____________@________[ground]
[+]_______./ .________. rear
Brake signal light
Switch switch

With the brakes off and the signal switch in turn mode, power flows
through the flasher, the switch and on to the rear light in "signal" mode.



[+]_______[flasher]___.
\.____________@________[ground]
[+]_______.__.________. rear
Brake signal light
Switch switch

With the brakes on and the signal switch in turn mode, no power flows from
the brake switch, but power does flow from the flasher, leaving that side
in "signal" mode (otherwise the brake switch would negate the flasher
and the light wouldn't blink.)

Of course, once you get inside the switch it gets a lot more complex than
that, because you've got control over the front lamps, a mirror-image
set-up for the left side and 4-way flasher controls and so on, but still,
if the switch (or its harness) has failed, you get this:


[+]_______[flasher]___.
.____________@________[ground]
[+]_______./ .________. rear
Brake signal light
Switch switch

Power can't get from either the brake switch nor the flasher. No rear
light in either mode. Without enough load on the thermal flasher, the
front lights stay on when you try to signal.




On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Ben Black wrote:

> Bill,
> I'm not sure I follow. The rear turn signal never comes on. Nor do the
> front two ever flash. What does the electrical circuit of the right turn
> signals have to do with the circuit for the brake? Thanks.
> ~Ben
>
> "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
> news:4038561E.9B6D5447@***.net...
> > Hi Ben,
> > If you switch the turn signal to the right turn position and only
> > the front right lights, then you push it further up and that will add
> > the rear light, then it must be in your switch. More than likely you
> > will have no brake lights if you turn the signal is in the left turn
> > position.
> > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> >
> > Ben Black wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey, I haven't posted here in a few years, but I'm back with a problem
> that
> > > has me stumped.
> > >
> > > My rear right turn signal is out. When I lift the lever to turn right,
> the
> > > remaining two lights don't flash, they just turn on. So I went through
> the
> > > normal checklist. I changed the bulb, but that didn't fix anything. I
> > > checked the connector to the light box. That wasn't the problem. SoI
> got
> > > out the DMM and started looking at voltages of the wires leading into
> the
> > > rear right light. The running light works (which is the lower wattage
> > > filament in the same bulb that makes the turn signal). The brake light
> > > doesn't work (the same filament as the turn signal), and obviously the
> turn
> > > signal doesn't work.
> > >
> > > I moved back up the electrical steam toward the dash and checked the
> > > voltages in the wires just as they come by the parking break. Again,I
> get
> > > a 12v signal to the running light but no signal in the wire that lights
> the
> > > brake light or the turn signal.
> > >
> > > I've checked fuses...I've checked bulbs...I'm all out of ideas of simple
> > > fixes. I only have two more thoughts, but before I went too far with
> them,
> > > I wanted to see if anyone else had any ideas. I'm thinking that the
> problem
> > > might be in the relay that makes the light circuit go on and off.
> However,
> > > I would think that might affect all of my turn signals and not just the
> > > right rear one. My last resort is that it's something wrong in the
> column
> > > in the lever and turn signal switch itself. That'll be a pain to do
> > > anything with, so I wanted some advice before I started tearing the
> steering
> > > column apart.
> > >
> > > ~Ben
> > >
> > > 93 yj (named Fletch)
>
>
>

Lee Ayrton

This is roughly (very simplified) how it works:


[+]_______[flasher]___.
.____________@________[ground]
[+]_______./ .________./ rear
Brake signal light
Switch switch

With the brakes off and the signal switch in the canceled position, no
power can get to the rear light.



[+]_______[flasher]___.
.____________@________[ground]
[+]_______.__.________./ rear
Brake signal light
Switch switch

With the brakes on power flows through the canceled signal switch to the
rear light in "brake" mode.



[+]_______[flasher]___.
\.____________@________[ground]
[+]_______./ .________. rear
Brake signal light
Switch switch

With the brakes off and the signal switch in turn mode, power flows
through the flasher, the switch and on to the rear light in "signal" mode.



[+]_______[flasher]___.
\.____________@________[ground]
[+]_______.__.________. rear
Brake signal light
Switch switch

With the brakes on and the signal switch in turn mode, no power flows from
the brake switch, but power does flow from the flasher, leaving that side
in "signal" mode (otherwise the brake switch would negate the flasher
and the light wouldn't blink.)

Of course, once you get inside the switch it gets a lot more complex than
that, because you've got control over the front lamps, a mirror-image
set-up for the left side and 4-way flasher controls and so on, but still,
if the switch (or its harness) has failed, you get this:


[+]_______[flasher]___.
.____________@________[ground]
[+]_______./ .________. rear
Brake signal light
Switch switch

Power can't get from either the brake switch nor the flasher. No rear
light in either mode. Without enough load on the thermal flasher, the
front lights stay on when you try to signal.




On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Ben Black wrote:

> Bill,
> I'm not sure I follow. The rear turn signal never comes on. Nor do the
> front two ever flash. What does the electrical circuit of the right turn
> signals have to do with the circuit for the brake? Thanks.
> ~Ben
>
> "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
> news:4038561E.9B6D5447@***.net...
> > Hi Ben,
> > If you switch the turn signal to the right turn position and only
> > the front right lights, then you push it further up and that will add
> > the rear light, then it must be in your switch. More than likely you
> > will have no brake lights if you turn the signal is in the left turn
> > position.
> > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> >
> > Ben Black wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey, I haven't posted here in a few years, but I'm back with a problem
> that
> > > has me stumped.
> > >
> > > My rear right turn signal is out. When I lift the lever to turn right,
> the
> > > remaining two lights don't flash, they just turn on. So I went through
> the
> > > normal checklist. I changed the bulb, but that didn't fix anything. I
> > > checked the connector to the light box. That wasn't the problem. SoI
> got
> > > out the DMM and started looking at voltages of the wires leading into
> the
> > > rear right light. The running light works (which is the lower wattage
> > > filament in the same bulb that makes the turn signal). The brake light
> > > doesn't work (the same filament as the turn signal), and obviously the
> turn
> > > signal doesn't work.
> > >
> > > I moved back up the electrical steam toward the dash and checked the
> > > voltages in the wires just as they come by the parking break. Again,I
> get
> > > a 12v signal to the running light but no signal in the wire that lights
> the
> > > brake light or the turn signal.
> > >
> > > I've checked fuses...I've checked bulbs...I'm all out of ideas of simple
> > > fixes. I only have two more thoughts, but before I went too far with
> them,
> > > I wanted to see if anyone else had any ideas. I'm thinking that the
> problem
> > > might be in the relay that makes the light circuit go on and off.
> However,
> > > I would think that might affect all of my turn signals and not just the
> > > right rear one. My last resort is that it's something wrong in the
> column
> > > in the lever and turn signal switch itself. That'll be a pain to do
> > > anything with, so I wanted some advice before I started tearing the
> steering
> > > column apart.
> > >
> > > ~Ben
> > >
> > > 93 yj (named Fletch)
>
>
>

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

Great explanation. Copied for future reference.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Lee Ayrton wrote:
>
> This is roughly (very simplified) how it works:
>
> [+]_______[flasher]___.
> .____________@________[ground]
> [+]_______./ .________./ rear
> Brake signal light
> Switch switch
>
> With the brakes off and the signal switch in the canceled position, no
> power can get to the rear light.
>
> [+]_______[flasher]___.
> .____________@________[ground]
> [+]_______.__.________./ rear
> Brake signal light
> Switch switch
>
> With the brakes on power flows through the canceled signal switch to the
> rear light in "brake" mode.
>
> [+]_______[flasher]___.
> \.____________@________[ground]
> [+]_______./ .________. rear
> Brake signal light
> Switch switch
>
> With the brakes off and the signal switch in turn mode, power flows
> through the flasher, the switch and on to the rear light in "signal" mode.
>
> [+]_______[flasher]___.
> \.____________@________[ground]
> [+]_______.__.________. rear
> Brake signal light
> Switch switch
>
> With the brakes on and the signal switch in turn mode, no power flows from
> the brake switch, but power does flow from the flasher, leaving that side
> in "signal" mode (otherwise the brake switch would negate the flasher
> and the light wouldn't blink.)
>
> Of course, once you get inside the switch it gets a lot more complex than
> that, because you've got control over the front lamps, a mirror-image
> set-up for the left side and 4-way flasher controls and so on, but still,
> if the switch (or its harness) has failed, you get this:
>
> [+]_______[flasher]___.
> .____________@________[ground]
> [+]_______./ .________. rear
> Brake signal light
> Switch switch
>
> Power can't get from either the brake switch nor the flasher. No rear
> light in either mode. Without enough load on the thermal flasher, the
> front lights stay on when you try to signal.
>
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Ben Black wrote:
>
> > Bill,
> > I'm not sure I follow. The rear turn signal never comes on. Nor do the
> > front two ever flash. What does the electrical circuit of the right turn
> > signals have to do with the circuit for the brake? Thanks.
> > ~Ben
> >
> > "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
> > news:4038561E.9B6D5447@***.net...
> > > Hi Ben,
> > > If you switch the turn signal to the right turn position and only
> > > the front right lights, then you push it further up and that will add
> > > the rear light, then it must be in your switch. More than likely you
> > > will have no brake lights if you turn the signal is in the left turn
> > > position.
> > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > >
> > > Ben Black wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hey, I haven't posted here in a few years, but I'm back with a problem
> > that
> > > > has me stumped.
> > > >
> > > > My rear right turn signal is out. When I lift the lever to turn right,
> > the
> > > > remaining two lights don't flash, they just turn on. So I went through
> > the
> > > > normal checklist. I changed the bulb, but that didn't fix anything. I
> > > > checked the connector to the light box. That wasn't the problem. So I
> > got
> > > > out the DMM and started looking at voltages of the wires leading into
> > the
> > > > rear right light. The running light works (which is the lower wattage
> > > > filament in the same bulb that makes the turn signal). The brake light
> > > > doesn't work (the same filament as the turn signal), and obviously the
> > turn
> > > > signal doesn't work.
> > > >
> > > > I moved back up the electrical steam toward the dash and checked the
> > > > voltages in the wires just as they come by the parking break. Again, I
> > get
> > > > a 12v signal to the running light but no signal in the wire that lights
> > the
> > > > brake light or the turn signal.
> > > >
> > > > I've checked fuses...I've checked bulbs...I'm all out of ideas of simple
> > > > fixes. I only have two more thoughts, but before I went too far with
> > them,
> > > > I wanted to see if anyone else had any ideas. I'm thinking that the
> > problem
> > > > might be in the relay that makes the light circuit go on and off.
> > However,
> > > > I would think that might affect all of my turn signals and not just the
> > > > right rear one. My last resort is that it's something wrong in the
> > column
> > > > in the lever and turn signal switch itself. That'll be a pain to do
> > > > anything with, so I wanted some advice before I started tearing the
> > steering
> > > > column apart.
> > > >
> > > > ~Ben
> > > >
> > > > 93 yj (named Fletch)
> >
> >
> >

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

Great explanation. Copied for future reference.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Lee Ayrton wrote:
>
> This is roughly (very simplified) how it works:
>
> [+]_______[flasher]___.
> .____________@________[ground]
> [+]_______./ .________./ rear
> Brake signal light
> Switch switch
>
> With the brakes off and the signal switch in the canceled position, no
> power can get to the rear light.
>
> [+]_______[flasher]___.
> .____________@________[ground]
> [+]_______.__.________./ rear
> Brake signal light
> Switch switch
>
> With the brakes on power flows through the canceled signal switch to the
> rear light in "brake" mode.
>
> [+]_______[flasher]___.
> \.____________@________[ground]
> [+]_______./ .________. rear
> Brake signal light
> Switch switch
>
> With the brakes off and the signal switch in turn mode, power flows
> through the flasher, the switch and on to the rear light in "signal" mode.
>
> [+]_______[flasher]___.
> \.____________@________[ground]
> [+]_______.__.________. rear
> Brake signal light
> Switch switch
>
> With the brakes on and the signal switch in turn mode, no power flows from
> the brake switch, but power does flow from the flasher, leaving that side
> in "signal" mode (otherwise the brake switch would negate the flasher
> and the light wouldn't blink.)
>
> Of course, once you get inside the switch it gets a lot more complex than
> that, because you've got control over the front lamps, a mirror-image
> set-up for the left side and 4-way flasher controls and so on, but still,
> if the switch (or its harness) has failed, you get this:
>
> [+]_______[flasher]___.
> .____________@________[ground]
> [+]_______./ .________. rear
> Brake signal light
> Switch switch
>
> Power can't get from either the brake switch nor the flasher. No rear
> light in either mode. Without enough load on the thermal flasher, the
> front lights stay on when you try to signal.
>
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Ben Black wrote:
>
> > Bill,
> > I'm not sure I follow. The rear turn signal never comes on. Nor do the
> > front two ever flash. What does the electrical circuit of the right turn
> > signals have to do with the circuit for the brake? Thanks.
> > ~Ben
> >
> > "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
> > news:4038561E.9B6D5447@***.net...
> > > Hi Ben,
> > > If you switch the turn signal to the right turn position and only
> > > the front right lights, then you push it further up and that will add
> > > the rear light, then it must be in your switch. More than likely you
> > > will have no brake lights if you turn the signal is in the left turn
> > > position.
> > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > >
> > > Ben Black wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hey, I haven't posted here in a few years, but I'm back with a problem
> > that
> > > > has me stumped.
> > > >
> > > > My rear right turn signal is out. When I lift the lever to turn right,
> > the
> > > > remaining two lights don't flash, they just turn on. So I went through
> > the
> > > > normal checklist. I changed the bulb, but that didn't fix anything. I
> > > > checked the connector to the light box. That wasn't the problem. So I
> > got
> > > > out the DMM and started looking at voltages of the wires leading into
> > the
> > > > rear right light. The running light works (which is the lower wattage
> > > > filament in the same bulb that makes the turn signal). The brake light
> > > > doesn't work (the same filament as the turn signal), and obviously the
> > turn
> > > > signal doesn't work.
> > > >
> > > > I moved back up the electrical steam toward the dash and checked the
> > > > voltages in the wires just as they come by the parking break. Again, I
> > get
> > > > a 12v signal to the running light but no signal in the wire that lights
> > the
> > > > brake light or the turn signal.
> > > >
> > > > I've checked fuses...I've checked bulbs...I'm all out of ideas of simple
> > > > fixes. I only have two more thoughts, but before I went too far with
> > them,
> > > > I wanted to see if anyone else had any ideas. I'm thinking that the
> > problem
> > > > might be in the relay that makes the light circuit go on and off.
> > However,
> > > > I would think that might affect all of my turn signals and not just the
> > > > right rear one. My last resort is that it's something wrong in the
> > column
> > > > in the lever and turn signal switch itself. That'll be a pain to do
> > > > anything with, so I wanted some advice before I started tearing the
> > steering
> > > > column apart.
> > > >
> > > > ~Ben
> > > >
> > > > 93 yj (named Fletch)
> >
> >
> >

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

Great explanation. Copied for future reference.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Lee Ayrton wrote:
>
> This is roughly (very simplified) how it works:
>
> [+]_______[flasher]___.
> .____________@________[ground]
> [+]_______./ .________./ rear
> Brake signal light
> Switch switch
>
> With the brakes off and the signal switch in the canceled position, no
> power can get to the rear light.
>
> [+]_______[flasher]___.
> .____________@________[ground]
> [+]_______.__.________./ rear
> Brake signal light
> Switch switch
>
> With the brakes on power flows through the canceled signal switch to the
> rear light in "brake" mode.
>
> [+]_______[flasher]___.
> \.____________@________[ground]
> [+]_______./ .________. rear
> Brake signal light
> Switch switch
>
> With the brakes off and the signal switch in turn mode, power flows
> through the flasher, the switch and on to the rear light in "signal" mode.
>
> [+]_______[flasher]___.
> \.____________@________[ground]
> [+]_______.__.________. rear
> Brake signal light
> Switch switch
>
> With the brakes on and the signal switch in turn mode, no power flows from
> the brake switch, but power does flow from the flasher, leaving that side
> in "signal" mode (otherwise the brake switch would negate the flasher
> and the light wouldn't blink.)
>
> Of course, once you get inside the switch it gets a lot more complex than
> that, because you've got control over the front lamps, a mirror-image
> set-up for the left side and 4-way flasher controls and so on, but still,
> if the switch (or its harness) has failed, you get this:
>
> [+]_______[flasher]___.
> .____________@________[ground]
> [+]_______./ .________. rear
> Brake signal light
> Switch switch
>
> Power can't get from either the brake switch nor the flasher. No rear
> light in either mode. Without enough load on the thermal flasher, the
> front lights stay on when you try to signal.
>
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Ben Black wrote:
>
> > Bill,
> > I'm not sure I follow. The rear turn signal never comes on. Nor do the
> > front two ever flash. What does the electrical circuit of the right turn
> > signals have to do with the circuit for the brake? Thanks.
> > ~Ben
> >
> > "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
> > news:4038561E.9B6D5447@***.net...
> > > Hi Ben,
> > > If you switch the turn signal to the right turn position and only
> > > the front right lights, then you push it further up and that will add
> > > the rear light, then it must be in your switch. More than likely you
> > > will have no brake lights if you turn the signal is in the left turn
> > > position.
> > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > >
> > > Ben Black wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hey, I haven't posted here in a few years, but I'm back with a problem
> > that
> > > > has me stumped.
> > > >
> > > > My rear right turn signal is out. When I lift the lever to turn right,
> > the
> > > > remaining two lights don't flash, they just turn on. So I went through
> > the
> > > > normal checklist. I changed the bulb, but that didn't fix anything. I
> > > > checked the connector to the light box. That wasn't the problem. So I
> > got
> > > > out the DMM and started looking at voltages of the wires leading into
> > the
> > > > rear right light. The running light works (which is the lower wattage
> > > > filament in the same bulb that makes the turn signal). The brake light
> > > > doesn't work (the same filament as the turn signal), and obviously the
> > turn
> > > > signal doesn't work.
> > > >
> > > > I moved back up the electrical steam toward the dash and checked the
> > > > voltages in the wires just as they come by the parking break. Again, I
> > get
> > > > a 12v signal to the running light but no signal in the wire that lights
> > the
> > > > brake light or the turn signal.
> > > >
> > > > I've checked fuses...I've checked bulbs...I'm all out of ideas of simple
> > > > fixes. I only have two more thoughts, but before I went too far with
> > them,
> > > > I wanted to see if anyone else had any ideas. I'm thinking that the
> > problem
> > > > might be in the relay that makes the light circuit go on and off.
> > However,
> > > > I would think that might affect all of my turn signals and not just the
> > > > right rear one. My last resort is that it's something wrong in the
> > column
> > > > in the lever and turn signal switch itself. That'll be a pain to do
> > > > anything with, so I wanted some advice before I started tearing the
> > steering
> > > > column apart.
> > > >
> > > > ~Ben
> > > >
> > > > 93 yj (named Fletch)
> >
> >
> >

Ben Black

I've checked the grounding. That's not the problem. I think that Lee
nailed the problem in the above posting.

So the final opinion is that the problem is in the column. Thanks for all
of the help!

~Ben

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:403A1716.FFAEED57@sympatico.ca...
> Gotcha now....
>
> The brake and signal light element uses the fixture for the ground
> connection. The running lights use a wire in the harness that screws
> into the body for a ground.
>
> You very likely have dirty/rusty bolts holding that one light fixture in
> place.
>
> I test them with a long booster cable. I tag the battery negative and
> the fixture or the outside case of the bulb if I can get the cable clamp
> on it or just use it as the source for the ground when testing the
> power.
>
> Folks also lose a brake or signal sometimes when they put brush guards
> on the tail lights. This moves the bolts out to rusty spots.
>
> Mike
>
>
> Ben Black wrote:
> >
> > Right...sorry for the confusion.
> >
> > I'm actually talking about a bunch of different sets of lights
throughout my
> > posting. I went through all of my troubleshooting, but let me try to
> > simplify better.
> >
> > When I lift the lever to activate the right turn signal, the front and
side
> > turn lights come on. They don't flash, nor does the dash make the
expected
> > clicking sound of the turn signal. The rear light doesn't come on at
all.
> > Secondary to that, the rear right brake light doesn't work. Other than
> > using the same high wattage filament of the dual filamant bulb in the
rear
> > light assembly, I'm not sure what the connection is.
> >
> > The bulb is good. All of the other lights work. I'm just not getting
any
> > voltage in the wires that power those two lights. If it were a problem
in
> > the column, why would that affect the brake light? If it were a problem
> > somewhere in the circuitry of the turn signal, again, why would that
affect
> > the brake light? However, if it were a problem with the brake light,
why
> > would that affect the blinking of the turn signal? There's obviously
some
> > problem between the column and fuse box, but I'm not sure where it could
be.
> >
> > As a side note, why would they run different circuits for the three
brake
> > lights (right left and center)? Wouldn't it be smarter to only run one
wire
> > and split it off at the end? Or would that have required a larger
diameter
> > wire thereby making the engineers want to run three seperate wires that
were
> > the same size...
> >
> > ~Ben
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:4038C736.690B720B@sympatico.ca...
> > > Please try explaining this again.
> > >
> > > You say the lights 'turn on' in one sentence and no brake light in
> > > another. Which is it or is it both?
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > >
> > >
> > > Ben Black wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hey, I haven't posted here in a few years, but I'm back with a
problem
> > that
> > > > has me stumped.
> > > >
> > > > My rear right turn signal is out. When I lift the lever to turn
right,
> > the
> > > > remaining two lights don't flash, they just turn on. So I went
through
> > the
> > > > normal checklist. I changed the bulb, but that didn't fix anything.
I
> > > > checked the connector to the light box. That wasn't the problem.
So I
> > got
> > > > out the DMM and started looking at voltages of the wires leading
into
> > the
> > > > rear right light. The running light works (which is the lower
wattage
> > > > filament in the same bulb that makes the turn signal). The brake
light
> > > > doesn't work (the same filament as the turn signal), and obviously
the
> > turn
> > > > signal doesn't work.
> > > >
> > > > I moved back up the electrical steam toward the dash and checked the
> > > > voltages in the wires just as they come by the parking break.
Again, I
> > get
> > > > a 12v signal to the running light but no signal in the wire that
lights
> > the
> > > > brake light or the turn signal.
> > > >
> > > > I've checked fuses...I've checked bulbs...I'm all out of ideas of
simple
> > > > fixes. I only have two more thoughts, but before I went too far
with
> > them,
> > > > I wanted to see if anyone else had any ideas. I'm thinking that the
> > problem
> > > > might be in the relay that makes the light circuit go on and off.
> > However,
> > > > I would think that might affect all of my turn signals and not just
the
> > > > right rear one. My last resort is that it's something wrong in the
> > column
> > > > in the lever and turn signal switch itself. That'll be a pain to do
> > > > anything with, so I wanted some advice before I started tearing the
> > steering
> > > > column apart.
> > > >
> > > > ~Ben
> > > >
> > > > 93 yj (named Fletch)

Ben Black

I've checked the grounding. That's not the problem. I think that Lee
nailed the problem in the above posting.

So the final opinion is that the problem is in the column. Thanks for all
of the help!

~Ben

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:403A1716.FFAEED57@sympatico.ca...
> Gotcha now....
>
> The brake and signal light element uses the fixture for the ground
> connection. The running lights use a wire in the harness that screws
> into the body for a ground.
>
> You very likely have dirty/rusty bolts holding that one light fixture in
> place.
>
> I test them with a long booster cable. I tag the battery negative and
> the fixture or the outside case of the bulb if I can get the cable clamp
> on it or just use it as the source for the ground when testing the
> power.
>
> Folks also lose a brake or signal sometimes when they put brush guards
> on the tail lights. This moves the bolts out to rusty spots.
>
> Mike
>
>
> Ben Black wrote:
> >
> > Right...sorry for the confusion.
> >
> > I'm actually talking about a bunch of different sets of lights
throughout my
> > posting. I went through all of my troubleshooting, but let me try to
> > simplify better.
> >
> > When I lift the lever to activate the right turn signal, the front and
side
> > turn lights come on. They don't flash, nor does the dash make the
expected
> > clicking sound of the turn signal. The rear light doesn't come on at
all.
> > Secondary to that, the rear right brake light doesn't work. Other than
> > using the same high wattage filament of the dual filamant bulb in the
rear
> > light assembly, I'm not sure what the connection is.
> >
> > The bulb is good. All of the other lights work. I'm just not getting
any
> > voltage in the wires that power those two lights. If it were a problem
in
> > the column, why would that affect the brake light? If it were a problem
> > somewhere in the circuitry of the turn signal, again, why would that
affect
> > the brake light? However, if it were a problem with the brake light,
why
> > would that affect the blinking of the turn signal? There's obviously
some
> > problem between the column and fuse box, but I'm not sure where it could
be.
> >
> > As a side note, why would they run different circuits for the three
brake
> > lights (right left and center)? Wouldn't it be smarter to only run one
wire
> > and split it off at the end? Or would that have required a larger
diameter
> > wire thereby making the engineers want to run three seperate wires that
were
> > the same size...
> >
> > ~Ben
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:4038C736.690B720B@sympatico.ca...
> > > Please try explaining this again.
> > >
> > > You say the lights 'turn on' in one sentence and no brake light in
> > > another. Which is it or is it both?
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > >
> > >
> > > Ben Black wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hey, I haven't posted here in a few years, but I'm back with a
problem
> > that
> > > > has me stumped.
> > > >
> > > > My rear right turn signal is out. When I lift the lever to turn
right,
> > the
> > > > remaining two lights don't flash, they just turn on. So I went
through
> > the
> > > > normal checklist. I changed the bulb, but that didn't fix anything.
I
> > > > checked the connector to the light box. That wasn't the problem.
So I
> > got
> > > > out the DMM and started looking at voltages of the wires leading
into
> > the
> > > > rear right light. The running light works (which is the lower
wattage
> > > > filament in the same bulb that makes the turn signal). The brake
light
> > > > doesn't work (the same filament as the turn signal), and obviously
the
> > turn
> > > > signal doesn't work.
> > > >
> > > > I moved back up the electrical steam toward the dash and checked the
> > > > voltages in the wires just as they come by the parking break.
Again, I
> > get
> > > > a 12v signal to the running light but no signal in the wire that
lights
> > the
> > > > brake light or the turn signal.
> > > >
> > > > I've checked fuses...I've checked bulbs...I'm all out of ideas of
simple
> > > > fixes. I only have two more thoughts, but before I went too far
with
> > them,
> > > > I wanted to see if anyone else had any ideas. I'm thinking that the
> > problem
> > > > might be in the relay that makes the light circuit go on and off.
> > However,
> > > > I would think that might affect all of my turn signals and not just
the
> > > > right rear one. My last resort is that it's something wrong in the
> > column
> > > > in the lever and turn signal switch itself. That'll be a pain to do
> > > > anything with, so I wanted some advice before I started tearing the
> > steering
> > > > column apart.
> > > >
> > > > ~Ben
> > > >
> > > > 93 yj (named Fletch)