Earle Horton

I haven't worked in this industry for quite some time, but I understand that
torque converters cannot be rebuilt, refurbished, remanufactured or whatever
you want to call it. It was decades ago when they stopped putting drain
plugs in them, so you cannot even change the oil properly. In 1978, they
told us that if a transmission had burned oil in it, the torque converter
was junk.

It is fraud, a criminal offense, to sell used parts as new. They have to be
identified on an invoice, as "used torque converter", "used widget", etc.
Failure to do so is a form of theft.

In my experience it takes a little work to be honest and ethical, but it is
easier in the long run, not to have to make up all those excuses, and you
get to sleep at night. Sadly, the majority of people don't even try to be
honest. They just do whatever is convenient, or what they think other
people are doing. One thing you can count on though, is consistency. If
people are honest, they are honest all the time. If people are dishonest,
they are dishonest all the time. You should call your state's attorney
general. If they have laws, then maybe they have someone to enforce them.

Earle
<lanceandrew@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1143655357.211987.63970@v46g2000cwv.googlegro ups.com...
> >Since you've already paid the man, the only thing left to work out is
> the warranty length.
> _
>
> Spoke to the shop manager today and told him I was uncomfortable with
> signing the work order/invoice form with pick up of the car as it was
> not consistent with our agreement in 3 areas, and also let him know
> those 3 areas amounted to a violation of NY State law.
>
> He conceded on 2 of these areas they dropped the ball (not informing me
> of additional parts, etc.) and revising the warranty after the fact
> (they want me to come in at the mid-way point of the warranty for a $95
> transmission servicing to keep the warranty valid). I did not mention
> this nugget in my OP however what they laced into the invoice/work
> order to sign off. It's not an issue of it being good/wise after
> receiving a transmission job, it's an issue of another term,
> undisclosed on the front end, and dropped on me at the back end.
>
> I said, "why did you not tell me the warranty required this condition"?
> He minimized its importance as having to be mentioned on the front
> end. I told him ethically he should say the warranty requires a $95
> check-up servicing midway. If you're going to verbally present it as a
> carrot....he should disclose this pivotal condition, no? He agreed to
> eat the $95 mid-way check up. I said, "that's not the point", "the
> point is being ethically straight and clear up front before the fact"
> and not allowing for any misunderstanding or misinterpretation, etc.
>
> Which all lead to the major point of concern, a reman transmission
> versues a rebuild. He parsed words, was extremely defensive but
> generally spoke to me like I was incapable of discerning the
> distinction between the two. I had to tell him there are clear
> distinctions, written in law, between reman and used/rebuild, etc.
> He finally said to me, "what do you want me to do?", I said, "honor the
> agreement". He said they don't do remans, only rebuilds.
>
> He said if I want I can have a transmission sent to his shop and he'll
> install it and all I will pay is labor. I can do that for $550 (get a
> trans over there delivered). I sent him a fax telling him at this
> juncture I would agree to the following; Take the Jeep now and Pay him
> $975 (price he originally quoted for a used trans) + $375 labor + oil.
> I told him the Torque Converter thing he pulled (by the way, he
> salvaged and refurbed my original for some other customer or something)
> was a violation of law but I will meet him 1/2 on that price. In sum
> with tax the whole job would cost me $1,600. I paid him the $2K with a
> credit card so I can reverse that.
>
> I told him this was my best effort to make the most out of the
> situation at this point and not something I would be satisfied with but
> would deal with. Either this or have all my parts returned, pull out
> the trans installed, and I will have my Jeep towed else way. And if
> this was not acceptable we would just be heading into the direction of
> a legal quagmire, something I want to avert.
>
> So who knows. I think what happend here is the vendor (repair shop)
> did not appreciate the customer might well know the distinction between
> "reman" and used and or refurbed or rebuilt. Beyond the
> mechancial/procedural distinctions, there are legal distinctions,
> actual State Laws governing this auto repair shops and parts when this
> "remanufactured" language is used. Even this Torque Convert itemized
> on my invoice...it does not say used or reman'ed and the absence of
> that language makes one believe it's new. However state law in NY
> requires used parts to be, on record identified as indeed "used parts".
> Failure to do so is technically a violation of law.
>
> There are few things as cherished to people than a straight shooting
> mechanics that you can trust. God Bless all you that instill
> confidence and comfort in your clients. I would not even get upset
> over a mechanic performing something without informing me and paying
> him. My only problem with that in this case is the series of "things"
> done not quite right ultimately add up and paint a suspect picture...
>


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*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***

billy ray

You can also refer the problem to your credit card company. If you paid
for a remanufactured transmission and you received a rebuilt one they will
intercede for you.

In the short run they will remove the charge from your bill while they
investigate. If they find in your favor they will cancel the charge to your
account and charge it back to the shop.

At that point you will have your Jeep with its rebuild transmission and no
payments....

"Earle Horton" <nurse--NOSPAM--busters@msn.com> wrote in message
news:442afe9a$0$20703$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.c om...
>I haven't worked in this industry for quite some time, but I understand
>that
> torque converters cannot be rebuilt, refurbished, remanufactured or
> whatever
> you want to call it. It was decades ago when they stopped putting drain
> plugs in them, so you cannot even change the oil properly. In 1978, they
> told us that if a transmission had burned oil in it, the torque converter
> was junk.
>
> It is fraud, a criminal offense, to sell used parts as new. They have to
> be
> identified on an invoice, as "used torque converter", "used widget", etc.
> Failure to do so is a form of theft.
>
> In my experience it takes a little work to be honest and ethical, but it
> is
> easier in the long run, not to have to make up all those excuses, and you
> get to sleep at night. Sadly, the majority of people don't even try to be
> honest. They just do whatever is convenient, or what they think other
> people are doing. One thing you can count on though, is consistency. If
> people are honest, they are honest all the time. If people are dishonest,
> they are dishonest all the time. You should call your state's attorney
> general. If they have laws, then maybe they have someone to enforce them.
>
> Earle
> <lanceandrew@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1143655357.211987.63970@v46g2000cwv.googlegro ups.com...
>> >Since you've already paid the man, the only thing left to work out is
>> the warranty length.
>> _
>>
>> Spoke to the shop manager today and told him I was uncomfortable with
>> signing the work order/invoice form with pick up of the car as it was
>> not consistent with our agreement in 3 areas, and also let him know
>> those 3 areas amounted to a violation of NY State law.
>>
>> He conceded on 2 of these areas they dropped the ball (not informing me
>> of additional parts, etc.) and revising the warranty after the fact
>> (they want me to come in at the mid-way point of the warranty for a $95
>> transmission servicing to keep the warranty valid). I did not mention
>> this nugget in my OP however what they laced into the invoice/work
>> order to sign off. It's not an issue of it being good/wise after
>> receiving a transmission job, it's an issue of another term,
>> undisclosed on the front end, and dropped on me at the back end.
>>
>> I said, "why did you not tell me the warranty required this condition"?
>> He minimized its importance as having to be mentioned on the front
>> end. I told him ethically he should say the warranty requires a $95
>> check-up servicing midway. If you're going to verbally present it as a
>> carrot....he should disclose this pivotal condition, no? He agreed to
>> eat the $95 mid-way check up. I said, "that's not the point", "the
>> point is being ethically straight and clear up front before the fact"
>> and not allowing for any misunderstanding or misinterpretation, etc.
>>
>> Which all lead to the major point of concern, a reman transmission
>> versues a rebuild. He parsed words, was extremely defensive but
>> generally spoke to me like I was incapable of discerning the
>> distinction between the two. I had to tell him there are clear
>> distinctions, written in law, between reman and used/rebuild, etc.
>> He finally said to me, "what do you want me to do?", I said, "honor the
>> agreement". He said they don't do remans, only rebuilds.
>>
>> He said if I want I can have a transmission sent to his shop and he'll
>> install it and all I will pay is labor. I can do that for $550 (get a
>> trans over there delivered). I sent him a fax telling him at this
>> juncture I would agree to the following; Take the Jeep now and Pay him
>> $975 (price he originally quoted for a used trans) + $375 labor + oil.
>> I told him the Torque Converter thing he pulled (by the way, he
>> salvaged and refurbed my original for some other customer or something)
>> was a violation of law but I will meet him 1/2 on that price. In sum
>> with tax the whole job would cost me $1,600. I paid him the $2K with a
>> credit card so I can reverse that.
>>
>> I told him this was my best effort to make the most out of the
>> situation at this point and not something I would be satisfied with but
>> would deal with. Either this or have all my parts returned, pull out
>> the trans installed, and I will have my Jeep towed else way. And if
>> this was not acceptable we would just be heading into the direction of
>> a legal quagmire, something I want to avert.
>>
>> So who knows. I think what happend here is the vendor (repair shop)
>> did not appreciate the customer might well know the distinction between
>> "reman" and used and or refurbed or rebuilt. Beyond the
>> mechancial/procedural distinctions, there are legal distinctions,
>> actual State Laws governing this auto repair shops and parts when this
>> "remanufactured" language is used. Even this Torque Convert itemized
>> on my invoice...it does not say used or reman'ed and the absence of
>> that language makes one believe it's new. However state law in NY
>> requires used parts to be, on record identified as indeed "used parts".
>> Failure to do so is technically a violation of law.
>>
>> There are few things as cherished to people than a straight shooting
>> mechanics that you can trust. God Bless all you that instill
>> confidence and comfort in your clients. I would not even get upset
>> over a mechanic performing something without informing me and paying
>> him. My only problem with that in this case is the series of "things"
>> done not quite right ultimately add up and paint a suspect picture...
>>
>
>
> *** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
> *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from
> http://www.SecureIX.com ***

billy ray

You can also refer the problem to your credit card company. If you paid
for a remanufactured transmission and you received a rebuilt one they will
intercede for you.

In the short run they will remove the charge from your bill while they
investigate. If they find in your favor they will cancel the charge to your
account and charge it back to the shop.

At that point you will have your Jeep with its rebuild transmission and no
payments....

"Earle Horton" <nurse--NOSPAM--busters@msn.com> wrote in message
news:442afe9a$0$20703$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.c om...
>I haven't worked in this industry for quite some time, but I understand
>that
> torque converters cannot be rebuilt, refurbished, remanufactured or
> whatever
> you want to call it. It was decades ago when they stopped putting drain
> plugs in them, so you cannot even change the oil properly. In 1978, they
> told us that if a transmission had burned oil in it, the torque converter
> was junk.
>
> It is fraud, a criminal offense, to sell used parts as new. They have to
> be
> identified on an invoice, as "used torque converter", "used widget", etc.
> Failure to do so is a form of theft.
>
> In my experience it takes a little work to be honest and ethical, but it
> is
> easier in the long run, not to have to make up all those excuses, and you
> get to sleep at night. Sadly, the majority of people don't even try to be
> honest. They just do whatever is convenient, or what they think other
> people are doing. One thing you can count on though, is consistency. If
> people are honest, they are honest all the time. If people are dishonest,
> they are dishonest all the time. You should call your state's attorney
> general. If they have laws, then maybe they have someone to enforce them.
>
> Earle
> <lanceandrew@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1143655357.211987.63970@v46g2000cwv.googlegro ups.com...
>> >Since you've already paid the man, the only thing left to work out is
>> the warranty length.
>> _
>>
>> Spoke to the shop manager today and told him I was uncomfortable with
>> signing the work order/invoice form with pick up of the car as it was
>> not consistent with our agreement in 3 areas, and also let him know
>> those 3 areas amounted to a violation of NY State law.
>>
>> He conceded on 2 of these areas they dropped the ball (not informing me
>> of additional parts, etc.) and revising the warranty after the fact
>> (they want me to come in at the mid-way point of the warranty for a $95
>> transmission servicing to keep the warranty valid). I did not mention
>> this nugget in my OP however what they laced into the invoice/work
>> order to sign off. It's not an issue of it being good/wise after
>> receiving a transmission job, it's an issue of another term,
>> undisclosed on the front end, and dropped on me at the back end.
>>
>> I said, "why did you not tell me the warranty required this condition"?
>> He minimized its importance as having to be mentioned on the front
>> end. I told him ethically he should say the warranty requires a $95
>> check-up servicing midway. If you're going to verbally present it as a
>> carrot....he should disclose this pivotal condition, no? He agreed to
>> eat the $95 mid-way check up. I said, "that's not the point", "the
>> point is being ethically straight and clear up front before the fact"
>> and not allowing for any misunderstanding or misinterpretation, etc.
>>
>> Which all lead to the major point of concern, a reman transmission
>> versues a rebuild. He parsed words, was extremely defensive but
>> generally spoke to me like I was incapable of discerning the
>> distinction between the two. I had to tell him there are clear
>> distinctions, written in law, between reman and used/rebuild, etc.
>> He finally said to me, "what do you want me to do?", I said, "honor the
>> agreement". He said they don't do remans, only rebuilds.
>>
>> He said if I want I can have a transmission sent to his shop and he'll
>> install it and all I will pay is labor. I can do that for $550 (get a
>> trans over there delivered). I sent him a fax telling him at this
>> juncture I would agree to the following; Take the Jeep now and Pay him
>> $975 (price he originally quoted for a used trans) + $375 labor + oil.
>> I told him the Torque Converter thing he pulled (by the way, he
>> salvaged and refurbed my original for some other customer or something)
>> was a violation of law but I will meet him 1/2 on that price. In sum
>> with tax the whole job would cost me $1,600. I paid him the $2K with a
>> credit card so I can reverse that.
>>
>> I told him this was my best effort to make the most out of the
>> situation at this point and not something I would be satisfied with but
>> would deal with. Either this or have all my parts returned, pull out
>> the trans installed, and I will have my Jeep towed else way. And if
>> this was not acceptable we would just be heading into the direction of
>> a legal quagmire, something I want to avert.
>>
>> So who knows. I think what happend here is the vendor (repair shop)
>> did not appreciate the customer might well know the distinction between
>> "reman" and used and or refurbed or rebuilt. Beyond the
>> mechancial/procedural distinctions, there are legal distinctions,
>> actual State Laws governing this auto repair shops and parts when this
>> "remanufactured" language is used. Even this Torque Convert itemized
>> on my invoice...it does not say used or reman'ed and the absence of
>> that language makes one believe it's new. However state law in NY
>> requires used parts to be, on record identified as indeed "used parts".
>> Failure to do so is technically a violation of law.
>>
>> There are few things as cherished to people than a straight shooting
>> mechanics that you can trust. God Bless all you that instill
>> confidence and comfort in your clients. I would not even get upset
>> over a mechanic performing something without informing me and paying
>> him. My only problem with that in this case is the series of "things"
>> done not quite right ultimately add up and paint a suspect picture...
>>
>
>
> *** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
> *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from
> http://www.SecureIX.com ***

billy ray

You can also refer the problem to your credit card company. If you paid
for a remanufactured transmission and you received a rebuilt one they will
intercede for you.

In the short run they will remove the charge from your bill while they
investigate. If they find in your favor they will cancel the charge to your
account and charge it back to the shop.

At that point you will have your Jeep with its rebuild transmission and no
payments....

"Earle Horton" <nurse--NOSPAM--busters@msn.com> wrote in message
news:442afe9a$0$20703$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.c om...
>I haven't worked in this industry for quite some time, but I understand
>that
> torque converters cannot be rebuilt, refurbished, remanufactured or
> whatever
> you want to call it. It was decades ago when they stopped putting drain
> plugs in them, so you cannot even change the oil properly. In 1978, they
> told us that if a transmission had burned oil in it, the torque converter
> was junk.
>
> It is fraud, a criminal offense, to sell used parts as new. They have to
> be
> identified on an invoice, as "used torque converter", "used widget", etc.
> Failure to do so is a form of theft.
>
> In my experience it takes a little work to be honest and ethical, but it
> is
> easier in the long run, not to have to make up all those excuses, and you
> get to sleep at night. Sadly, the majority of people don't even try to be
> honest. They just do whatever is convenient, or what they think other
> people are doing. One thing you can count on though, is consistency. If
> people are honest, they are honest all the time. If people are dishonest,
> they are dishonest all the time. You should call your state's attorney
> general. If they have laws, then maybe they have someone to enforce them.
>
> Earle
> <lanceandrew@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1143655357.211987.63970@v46g2000cwv.googlegro ups.com...
>> >Since you've already paid the man, the only thing left to work out is
>> the warranty length.
>> _
>>
>> Spoke to the shop manager today and told him I was uncomfortable with
>> signing the work order/invoice form with pick up of the car as it was
>> not consistent with our agreement in 3 areas, and also let him know
>> those 3 areas amounted to a violation of NY State law.
>>
>> He conceded on 2 of these areas they dropped the ball (not informing me
>> of additional parts, etc.) and revising the warranty after the fact
>> (they want me to come in at the mid-way point of the warranty for a $95
>> transmission servicing to keep the warranty valid). I did not mention
>> this nugget in my OP however what they laced into the invoice/work
>> order to sign off. It's not an issue of it being good/wise after
>> receiving a transmission job, it's an issue of another term,
>> undisclosed on the front end, and dropped on me at the back end.
>>
>> I said, "why did you not tell me the warranty required this condition"?
>> He minimized its importance as having to be mentioned on the front
>> end. I told him ethically he should say the warranty requires a $95
>> check-up servicing midway. If you're going to verbally present it as a
>> carrot....he should disclose this pivotal condition, no? He agreed to
>> eat the $95 mid-way check up. I said, "that's not the point", "the
>> point is being ethically straight and clear up front before the fact"
>> and not allowing for any misunderstanding or misinterpretation, etc.
>>
>> Which all lead to the major point of concern, a reman transmission
>> versues a rebuild. He parsed words, was extremely defensive but
>> generally spoke to me like I was incapable of discerning the
>> distinction between the two. I had to tell him there are clear
>> distinctions, written in law, between reman and used/rebuild, etc.
>> He finally said to me, "what do you want me to do?", I said, "honor the
>> agreement". He said they don't do remans, only rebuilds.
>>
>> He said if I want I can have a transmission sent to his shop and he'll
>> install it and all I will pay is labor. I can do that for $550 (get a
>> trans over there delivered). I sent him a fax telling him at this
>> juncture I would agree to the following; Take the Jeep now and Pay him
>> $975 (price he originally quoted for a used trans) + $375 labor + oil.
>> I told him the Torque Converter thing he pulled (by the way, he
>> salvaged and refurbed my original for some other customer or something)
>> was a violation of law but I will meet him 1/2 on that price. In sum
>> with tax the whole job would cost me $1,600. I paid him the $2K with a
>> credit card so I can reverse that.
>>
>> I told him this was my best effort to make the most out of the
>> situation at this point and not something I would be satisfied with but
>> would deal with. Either this or have all my parts returned, pull out
>> the trans installed, and I will have my Jeep towed else way. And if
>> this was not acceptable we would just be heading into the direction of
>> a legal quagmire, something I want to avert.
>>
>> So who knows. I think what happend here is the vendor (repair shop)
>> did not appreciate the customer might well know the distinction between
>> "reman" and used and or refurbed or rebuilt. Beyond the
>> mechancial/procedural distinctions, there are legal distinctions,
>> actual State Laws governing this auto repair shops and parts when this
>> "remanufactured" language is used. Even this Torque Convert itemized
>> on my invoice...it does not say used or reman'ed and the absence of
>> that language makes one believe it's new. However state law in NY
>> requires used parts to be, on record identified as indeed "used parts".
>> Failure to do so is technically a violation of law.
>>
>> There are few things as cherished to people than a straight shooting
>> mechanics that you can trust. God Bless all you that instill
>> confidence and comfort in your clients. I would not even get upset
>> over a mechanic performing something without informing me and paying
>> him. My only problem with that in this case is the series of "things"
>> done not quite right ultimately add up and paint a suspect picture...
>>
>
>
> *** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
> *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from
> http://www.SecureIX.com ***

Lee Ayrton

Won't that likely result in the credit card company suspending the
card's account too, until they decide who is going to pay them? I've no
experience in such things.


billy ray wrote:
> You can also refer the problem to your credit card company. If you paid
> for a remanufactured transmission and you received a rebuilt one they will
> intercede for you.
>
> In the short run they will remove the charge from your bill while they
> investigate. If they find in your favor they will cancel the charge to your
> account and charge it back to the shop.
>
> At that point you will have your Jeep with its rebuild transmission and no
> payments....
>
> "Earle Horton" <nurse--NOSPAM--busters@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:442afe9a$0$20703$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.c om...
>
>>I haven't worked in this industry for quite some time, but I understand
>>that
>>torque converters cannot be rebuilt, refurbished, remanufactured or
>>whatever
>>you want to call it. It was decades ago when they stopped putting drain
>>plugs in them, so you cannot even change the oil properly. In 1978, they
>>told us that if a transmission had burned oil in it, the torque converter
>>was junk.
>>
>>It is fraud, a criminal offense, to sell used parts as new. They have to
>>be
>>identified on an invoice, as "used torque converter", "used widget", etc.
>>Failure to do so is a form of theft.
>>
>>In my experience it takes a little work to be honest and ethical, but it
>>is
>>easier in the long run, not to have to make up all those excuses, and you
>>get to sleep at night. Sadly, the majority of people don't even try to be
>>honest. They just do whatever is convenient, or what they think other
>>people are doing. One thing you can count on though, is consistency. If
>>people are honest, they are honest all the time. If people are dishonest,
>>they are dishonest all the time. You should call your state's attorney
>>general. If they have laws, then maybe they have someone to enforce them.
>>
>>Earle
>><lanceandrew@aol.com> wrote in message
>>news:1143655357.211987.63970@v46g2000cwv.googleg roups.com...
>>
>>>>Since you've already paid the man, the only thing left to work out is
>>>
>>>the warranty length.
>>>_
>>>
>>>Spoke to the shop manager today and told him I was uncomfortable with
>>>signing the work order/invoice form with pick up of the car as it was
>>>not consistent with our agreement in 3 areas, and also let him know
>>>those 3 areas amounted to a violation of NY State law.
>>>
>>>He conceded on 2 of these areas they dropped the ball (not informing me
>>>of additional parts, etc.) and revising the warranty after the fact
>>>(they want me to come in at the mid-way point of the warranty for a $95
>>>transmission servicing to keep the warranty valid). I did not mention
>>>this nugget in my OP however what they laced into the invoice/work
>>>order to sign off. It's not an issue of it being good/wise after
>>>receiving a transmission job, it's an issue of another term,
>>>undisclosed on the front end, and dropped on me at the back end.
>>>
>>>I said, "why did you not tell me the warranty required this condition"?
>>> He minimized its importance as having to be mentioned on the front
>>>end. I told him ethically he should say the warranty requires a $95
>>>check-up servicing midway. If you're going to verbally present it as a
>>>carrot....he should disclose this pivotal condition, no? He agreed to
>>>eat the $95 mid-way check up. I said, "that's not the point", "the
>>>point is being ethically straight and clear up front before the fact"
>>>and not allowing for any misunderstanding or misinterpretation, etc.
>>>
>>>Which all lead to the major point of concern, a reman transmission
>>>versues a rebuild. He parsed words, was extremely defensive but
>>>generally spoke to me like I was incapable of discerning the
>>>distinction between the two. I had to tell him there are clear
>>>distinctions, written in law, between reman and used/rebuild, etc.
>>>He finally said to me, "what do you want me to do?", I said, "honor the
>>>agreement". He said they don't do remans, only rebuilds.
>>>
>>>He said if I want I can have a transmission sent to his shop and he'll
>>>install it and all I will pay is labor. I can do that for $550 (get a
>>>trans over there delivered). I sent him a fax telling him at this
>>>juncture I would agree to the following; Take the Jeep now and Pay him
>>>$975 (price he originally quoted for a used trans) + $375 labor + oil.
>>>I told him the Torque Converter thing he pulled (by the way, he
>>>salvaged and refurbed my original for some other customer or something)
>>>was a violation of law but I will meet him 1/2 on that price. In sum
>>>with tax the whole job would cost me $1,600. I paid him the $2K with a
>>>credit card so I can reverse that.
>>>
>>>I told him this was my best effort to make the most out of the
>>>situation at this point and not something I would be satisfied with but
>>>would deal with. Either this or have all my parts returned, pull out
>>>the trans installed, and I will have my Jeep towed else way. And if
>>>this was not acceptable we would just be heading into the direction of
>>>a legal quagmire, something I want to avert.
>>>
>>>So who knows. I think what happend here is the vendor (repair shop)
>>>did not appreciate the customer might well know the distinction between
>>>"reman" and used and or refurbed or rebuilt. Beyond the
>>>mechancial/procedural distinctions, there are legal distinctions,
>>>actual State Laws governing this auto repair shops and parts when this
>>>"remanufactured" language is used. Even this Torque Convert itemized
>>>on my invoice...it does not say used or reman'ed and the absence of
>>>that language makes one believe it's new. However state law in NY
>>>requires used parts to be, on record identified as indeed "used parts".
>>> Failure to do so is technically a violation of law.
>>>
>>>There are few things as cherished to people than a straight shooting
>>>mechanics that you can trust. God Bless all you that instill
>>>confidence and comfort in your clients. I would not even get upset
>>>over a mechanic performing something without informing me and paying
>>>him. My only problem with that in this case is the series of "things"
>>>done not quite right ultimately add up and paint a suspect picture...
>>>
>>
>>
>>*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
>>*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from
>>http://www.SecureIX.com ***
>
>
>

Lee Ayrton

Won't that likely result in the credit card company suspending the
card's account too, until they decide who is going to pay them? I've no
experience in such things.


billy ray wrote:
> You can also refer the problem to your credit card company. If you paid
> for a remanufactured transmission and you received a rebuilt one they will
> intercede for you.
>
> In the short run they will remove the charge from your bill while they
> investigate. If they find in your favor they will cancel the charge to your
> account and charge it back to the shop.
>
> At that point you will have your Jeep with its rebuild transmission and no
> payments....
>
> "Earle Horton" <nurse--NOSPAM--busters@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:442afe9a$0$20703$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.c om...
>
>>I haven't worked in this industry for quite some time, but I understand
>>that
>>torque converters cannot be rebuilt, refurbished, remanufactured or
>>whatever
>>you want to call it. It was decades ago when they stopped putting drain
>>plugs in them, so you cannot even change the oil properly. In 1978, they
>>told us that if a transmission had burned oil in it, the torque converter
>>was junk.
>>
>>It is fraud, a criminal offense, to sell used parts as new. They have to
>>be
>>identified on an invoice, as "used torque converter", "used widget", etc.
>>Failure to do so is a form of theft.
>>
>>In my experience it takes a little work to be honest and ethical, but it
>>is
>>easier in the long run, not to have to make up all those excuses, and you
>>get to sleep at night. Sadly, the majority of people don't even try to be
>>honest. They just do whatever is convenient, or what they think other
>>people are doing. One thing you can count on though, is consistency. If
>>people are honest, they are honest all the time. If people are dishonest,
>>they are dishonest all the time. You should call your state's attorney
>>general. If they have laws, then maybe they have someone to enforce them.
>>
>>Earle
>><lanceandrew@aol.com> wrote in message
>>news:1143655357.211987.63970@v46g2000cwv.googleg roups.com...
>>
>>>>Since you've already paid the man, the only thing left to work out is
>>>
>>>the warranty length.
>>>_
>>>
>>>Spoke to the shop manager today and told him I was uncomfortable with
>>>signing the work order/invoice form with pick up of the car as it was
>>>not consistent with our agreement in 3 areas, and also let him know
>>>those 3 areas amounted to a violation of NY State law.
>>>
>>>He conceded on 2 of these areas they dropped the ball (not informing me
>>>of additional parts, etc.) and revising the warranty after the fact
>>>(they want me to come in at the mid-way point of the warranty for a $95
>>>transmission servicing to keep the warranty valid). I did not mention
>>>this nugget in my OP however what they laced into the invoice/work
>>>order to sign off. It's not an issue of it being good/wise after
>>>receiving a transmission job, it's an issue of another term,
>>>undisclosed on the front end, and dropped on me at the back end.
>>>
>>>I said, "why did you not tell me the warranty required this condition"?
>>> He minimized its importance as having to be mentioned on the front
>>>end. I told him ethically he should say the warranty requires a $95
>>>check-up servicing midway. If you're going to verbally present it as a
>>>carrot....he should disclose this pivotal condition, no? He agreed to
>>>eat the $95 mid-way check up. I said, "that's not the point", "the
>>>point is being ethically straight and clear up front before the fact"
>>>and not allowing for any misunderstanding or misinterpretation, etc.
>>>
>>>Which all lead to the major point of concern, a reman transmission
>>>versues a rebuild. He parsed words, was extremely defensive but
>>>generally spoke to me like I was incapable of discerning the
>>>distinction between the two. I had to tell him there are clear
>>>distinctions, written in law, between reman and used/rebuild, etc.
>>>He finally said to me, "what do you want me to do?", I said, "honor the
>>>agreement". He said they don't do remans, only rebuilds.
>>>
>>>He said if I want I can have a transmission sent to his shop and he'll
>>>install it and all I will pay is labor. I can do that for $550 (get a
>>>trans over there delivered). I sent him a fax telling him at this
>>>juncture I would agree to the following; Take the Jeep now and Pay him
>>>$975 (price he originally quoted for a used trans) + $375 labor + oil.
>>>I told him the Torque Converter thing he pulled (by the way, he
>>>salvaged and refurbed my original for some other customer or something)
>>>was a violation of law but I will meet him 1/2 on that price. In sum
>>>with tax the whole job would cost me $1,600. I paid him the $2K with a
>>>credit card so I can reverse that.
>>>
>>>I told him this was my best effort to make the most out of the
>>>situation at this point and not something I would be satisfied with but
>>>would deal with. Either this or have all my parts returned, pull out
>>>the trans installed, and I will have my Jeep towed else way. And if
>>>this was not acceptable we would just be heading into the direction of
>>>a legal quagmire, something I want to avert.
>>>
>>>So who knows. I think what happend here is the vendor (repair shop)
>>>did not appreciate the customer might well know the distinction between
>>>"reman" and used and or refurbed or rebuilt. Beyond the
>>>mechancial/procedural distinctions, there are legal distinctions,
>>>actual State Laws governing this auto repair shops and parts when this
>>>"remanufactured" language is used. Even this Torque Convert itemized
>>>on my invoice...it does not say used or reman'ed and the absence of
>>>that language makes one believe it's new. However state law in NY
>>>requires used parts to be, on record identified as indeed "used parts".
>>> Failure to do so is technically a violation of law.
>>>
>>>There are few things as cherished to people than a straight shooting
>>>mechanics that you can trust. God Bless all you that instill
>>>confidence and comfort in your clients. I would not even get upset
>>>over a mechanic performing something without informing me and paying
>>>him. My only problem with that in this case is the series of "things"
>>>done not quite right ultimately add up and paint a suspect picture...
>>>
>>
>>
>>*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
>>*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from
>>http://www.SecureIX.com ***
>
>
>

Lee Ayrton

Won't that likely result in the credit card company suspending the
card's account too, until they decide who is going to pay them? I've no
experience in such things.


billy ray wrote:
> You can also refer the problem to your credit card company. If you paid
> for a remanufactured transmission and you received a rebuilt one they will
> intercede for you.
>
> In the short run they will remove the charge from your bill while they
> investigate. If they find in your favor they will cancel the charge to your
> account and charge it back to the shop.
>
> At that point you will have your Jeep with its rebuild transmission and no
> payments....
>
> "Earle Horton" <nurse--NOSPAM--busters@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:442afe9a$0$20703$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.c om...
>
>>I haven't worked in this industry for quite some time, but I understand
>>that
>>torque converters cannot be rebuilt, refurbished, remanufactured or
>>whatever
>>you want to call it. It was decades ago when they stopped putting drain
>>plugs in them, so you cannot even change the oil properly. In 1978, they
>>told us that if a transmission had burned oil in it, the torque converter
>>was junk.
>>
>>It is fraud, a criminal offense, to sell used parts as new. They have to
>>be
>>identified on an invoice, as "used torque converter", "used widget", etc.
>>Failure to do so is a form of theft.
>>
>>In my experience it takes a little work to be honest and ethical, but it
>>is
>>easier in the long run, not to have to make up all those excuses, and you
>>get to sleep at night. Sadly, the majority of people don't even try to be
>>honest. They just do whatever is convenient, or what they think other
>>people are doing. One thing you can count on though, is consistency. If
>>people are honest, they are honest all the time. If people are dishonest,
>>they are dishonest all the time. You should call your state's attorney
>>general. If they have laws, then maybe they have someone to enforce them.
>>
>>Earle
>><lanceandrew@aol.com> wrote in message
>>news:1143655357.211987.63970@v46g2000cwv.googleg roups.com...
>>
>>>>Since you've already paid the man, the only thing left to work out is
>>>
>>>the warranty length.
>>>_
>>>
>>>Spoke to the shop manager today and told him I was uncomfortable with
>>>signing the work order/invoice form with pick up of the car as it was
>>>not consistent with our agreement in 3 areas, and also let him know
>>>those 3 areas amounted to a violation of NY State law.
>>>
>>>He conceded on 2 of these areas they dropped the ball (not informing me
>>>of additional parts, etc.) and revising the warranty after the fact
>>>(they want me to come in at the mid-way point of the warranty for a $95
>>>transmission servicing to keep the warranty valid). I did not mention
>>>this nugget in my OP however what they laced into the invoice/work
>>>order to sign off. It's not an issue of it being good/wise after
>>>receiving a transmission job, it's an issue of another term,
>>>undisclosed on the front end, and dropped on me at the back end.
>>>
>>>I said, "why did you not tell me the warranty required this condition"?
>>> He minimized its importance as having to be mentioned on the front
>>>end. I told him ethically he should say the warranty requires a $95
>>>check-up servicing midway. If you're going to verbally present it as a
>>>carrot....he should disclose this pivotal condition, no? He agreed to
>>>eat the $95 mid-way check up. I said, "that's not the point", "the
>>>point is being ethically straight and clear up front before the fact"
>>>and not allowing for any misunderstanding or misinterpretation, etc.
>>>
>>>Which all lead to the major point of concern, a reman transmission
>>>versues a rebuild. He parsed words, was extremely defensive but
>>>generally spoke to me like I was incapable of discerning the
>>>distinction between the two. I had to tell him there are clear
>>>distinctions, written in law, between reman and used/rebuild, etc.
>>>He finally said to me, "what do you want me to do?", I said, "honor the
>>>agreement". He said they don't do remans, only rebuilds.
>>>
>>>He said if I want I can have a transmission sent to his shop and he'll
>>>install it and all I will pay is labor. I can do that for $550 (get a
>>>trans over there delivered). I sent him a fax telling him at this
>>>juncture I would agree to the following; Take the Jeep now and Pay him
>>>$975 (price he originally quoted for a used trans) + $375 labor + oil.
>>>I told him the Torque Converter thing he pulled (by the way, he
>>>salvaged and refurbed my original for some other customer or something)
>>>was a violation of law but I will meet him 1/2 on that price. In sum
>>>with tax the whole job would cost me $1,600. I paid him the $2K with a
>>>credit card so I can reverse that.
>>>
>>>I told him this was my best effort to make the most out of the
>>>situation at this point and not something I would be satisfied with but
>>>would deal with. Either this or have all my parts returned, pull out
>>>the trans installed, and I will have my Jeep towed else way. And if
>>>this was not acceptable we would just be heading into the direction of
>>>a legal quagmire, something I want to avert.
>>>
>>>So who knows. I think what happend here is the vendor (repair shop)
>>>did not appreciate the customer might well know the distinction between
>>>"reman" and used and or refurbed or rebuilt. Beyond the
>>>mechancial/procedural distinctions, there are legal distinctions,
>>>actual State Laws governing this auto repair shops and parts when this
>>>"remanufactured" language is used. Even this Torque Convert itemized
>>>on my invoice...it does not say used or reman'ed and the absence of
>>>that language makes one believe it's new. However state law in NY
>>>requires used parts to be, on record identified as indeed "used parts".
>>> Failure to do so is technically a violation of law.
>>>
>>>There are few things as cherished to people than a straight shooting
>>>mechanics that you can trust. God Bless all you that instill
>>>confidence and comfort in your clients. I would not even get upset
>>>over a mechanic performing something without informing me and paying
>>>him. My only problem with that in this case is the series of "things"
>>>done not quite right ultimately add up and paint a suspect picture...
>>>
>>
>>
>>*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
>>*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from
>>http://www.SecureIX.com ***
>
>
>

billy ray

Nope... They temporarily remove the charge from your account. If they rule
in your favor they credit the amount back to you ( completely remove the
charge) and then charge it back to the vendor by withholding that amount in
payments to him..

I rented a car from Enterprise and they charged me 10 days while I only had
it for 9 which was documented on the contract and receipt. My calling and
writing to the company had no effect...

I wrote a letter to Visa and enclosed copied of the documentation and notes
on when I called, who I spoke to, etc. I got a letter back telling me the
charge had been temporarily removed pending investigation. When the next
billing cycle came around the charge was there and the exact same amount
credited back.

I expected to see a prorated charge for 9 days appear but over the next
several months it never did. When I called Visa they told me that they
voided the entire transaction as they deemed it fraudulent.

Now I suppose Enterprise could have sued me in court but imagine the wording
in the filing.

"We, Enterprise Rent-a-Car, knowingly and with malice charged the defendant
an amount in excess of our agreed daily charge, as documented by the written
agreement, with the sole intent to steal from him."

I'm not a shyster (or even a lawyer) but that would seem to me to admitting
in court to what may well be a criminal action.

That is why you should always use a credit card when making a large
purchase. There are state and federal laws that offer you protections.
Debit cards do not have this protection. Now.. YOUR bank may offer it on
debit purchases but hey are not required to do so Using a debit card is the
same as writing a check with the handicap of your monies being withdrawn
immediately (i.e. you can not stop payment)



"Lee Ayrton" <layrton@REMOVE_ME.panix.com> wrote in message
news:e0mo25$193$1@reader1.panix.com...
>
> Won't that likely result in the credit card company suspending the card's
> account too, until they decide who is going to pay them? I've no
> experience in such things.
>
>
> billy ray wrote:
>> You can also refer the problem to your credit card company. If you paid
>> for a remanufactured transmission and you received a rebuilt one they
>> will intercede for you.
>>
>> In the short run they will remove the charge from your bill while they
>> investigate. If they find in your favor they will cancel the charge to
>> your account and charge it back to the shop.
>>
>> At that point you will have your Jeep with its rebuild transmission and
>> no payments....
>>
>> "Earle Horton" <nurse--NOSPAM--busters@msn.com> wrote in message
>> news:442afe9a$0$20703$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.c om...
>>
>>>I haven't worked in this industry for quite some time, but I understand
>>>that
>>>torque converters cannot be rebuilt, refurbished, remanufactured or
>>>whatever
>>>you want to call it. It was decades ago when they stopped putting drain
>>>plugs in them, so you cannot even change the oil properly. In 1978, they
>>>told us that if a transmission had burned oil in it, the torque converter
>>>was junk.
>>>
>>>It is fraud, a criminal offense, to sell used parts as new. They have to
>>>be
>>>identified on an invoice, as "used torque converter", "used widget", etc.
>>>Failure to do so is a form of theft.
>>>
>>>In my experience it takes a little work to be honest and ethical, but it
>>>is
>>>easier in the long run, not to have to make up all those excuses, and you
>>>get to sleep at night. Sadly, the majority of people don't even try to
>>>be
>>>honest. They just do whatever is convenient, or what they think other
>>>people are doing. One thing you can count on though, is consistency. If
>>>people are honest, they are honest all the time. If people are
>>>dishonest,
>>>they are dishonest all the time. You should call your state's attorney
>>>general. If they have laws, then maybe they have someone to enforce
>>>them.
>>>
>>>Earle
>>><lanceandrew@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>news:1143655357.211987.63970@v46g2000cwv.google groups.com...
>>>
>>>>>Since you've already paid the man, the only thing left to work out is
>>>>
>>>>the warranty length.
>>>>_
>>>>
>>>>Spoke to the shop manager today and told him I was uncomfortable with
>>>>signing the work order/invoice form with pick up of the car as it was
>>>>not consistent with our agreement in 3 areas, and also let him know
>>>>those 3 areas amounted to a violation of NY State law.
>>>>
>>>>He conceded on 2 of these areas they dropped the ball (not informing me
>>>>of additional parts, etc.) and revising the warranty after the fact
>>>>(they want me to come in at the mid-way point of the warranty for a $95
>>>>transmission servicing to keep the warranty valid). I did not mention
>>>>this nugget in my OP however what they laced into the invoice/work
>>>>order to sign off. It's not an issue of it being good/wise after
>>>>receiving a transmission job, it's an issue of another term,
>>>>undisclosed on the front end, and dropped on me at the back end.
>>>>
>>>>I said, "why did you not tell me the warranty required this condition"?
>>>> He minimized its importance as having to be mentioned on the front
>>>>end. I told him ethically he should say the warranty requires a $95
>>>>check-up servicing midway. If you're going to verbally present it as a
>>>>carrot....he should disclose this pivotal condition, no? He agreed to
>>>>eat the $95 mid-way check up. I said, "that's not the point", "the
>>>>point is being ethically straight and clear up front before the fact"
>>>>and not allowing for any misunderstanding or misinterpretation, etc.
>>>>
>>>>Which all lead to the major point of concern, a reman transmission
>>>>versues a rebuild. He parsed words, was extremely defensive but
>>>>generally spoke to me like I was incapable of discerning the
>>>>distinction between the two. I had to tell him there are clear
>>>>distinctions, written in law, between reman and used/rebuild, etc.
>>>>He finally said to me, "what do you want me to do?", I said, "honor the
>>>>agreement". He said they don't do remans, only rebuilds.
>>>>
>>>>He said if I want I can have a transmission sent to his shop and he'll
>>>>install it and all I will pay is labor. I can do that for $550 (get a
>>>>trans over there delivered). I sent him a fax telling him at this
>>>>juncture I would agree to the following; Take the Jeep now and Pay him
>>>>$975 (price he originally quoted for a used trans) + $375 labor + oil.
>>>>I told him the Torque Converter thing he pulled (by the way, he
>>>>salvaged and refurbed my original for some other customer or something)
>>>>was a violation of law but I will meet him 1/2 on that price. In sum
>>>>with tax the whole job would cost me $1,600. I paid him the $2K with a
>>>>credit card so I can reverse that.
>>>>
>>>>I told him this was my best effort to make the most out of the
>>>>situation at this point and not something I would be satisfied with but
>>>>would deal with. Either this or have all my parts returned, pull out
>>>>the trans installed, and I will have my Jeep towed else way. And if
>>>>this was not acceptable we would just be heading into the direction of
>>>>a legal quagmire, something I want to avert.
>>>>
>>>>So who knows. I think what happend here is the vendor (repair shop)
>>>>did not appreciate the customer might well know the distinction between
>>>>"reman" and used and or refurbed or rebuilt. Beyond the
>>>>mechancial/procedural distinctions, there are legal distinctions,
>>>>actual State Laws governing this auto repair shops and parts when this
>>>>"remanufactured" language is used. Even this Torque Convert itemized
>>>>on my invoice...it does not say used or reman'ed and the absence of
>>>>that language makes one believe it's new. However state law in NY
>>>>requires used parts to be, on record identified as indeed "used parts".
>>>> Failure to do so is technically a violation of law.
>>>>
>>>>There are few things as cherished to people than a straight shooting
>>>>mechanics that you can trust. God Bless all you that instill
>>>>confidence and comfort in your clients. I would not even get upset
>>>>over a mechanic performing something without informing me and paying
>>>>him. My only problem with that in this case is the series of "things"
>>>>done not quite right ultimately add up and paint a suspect picture...
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
>>>*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from
>>>http://www.SecureIX.com ***
>>
>>
>>
>

billy ray

Nope... They temporarily remove the charge from your account. If they rule
in your favor they credit the amount back to you ( completely remove the
charge) and then charge it back to the vendor by withholding that amount in
payments to him..

I rented a car from Enterprise and they charged me 10 days while I only had
it for 9 which was documented on the contract and receipt. My calling and
writing to the company had no effect...

I wrote a letter to Visa and enclosed copied of the documentation and notes
on when I called, who I spoke to, etc. I got a letter back telling me the
charge had been temporarily removed pending investigation. When the next
billing cycle came around the charge was there and the exact same amount
credited back.

I expected to see a prorated charge for 9 days appear but over the next
several months it never did. When I called Visa they told me that they
voided the entire transaction as they deemed it fraudulent.

Now I suppose Enterprise could have sued me in court but imagine the wording
in the filing.

"We, Enterprise Rent-a-Car, knowingly and with malice charged the defendant
an amount in excess of our agreed daily charge, as documented by the written
agreement, with the sole intent to steal from him."

I'm not a shyster (or even a lawyer) but that would seem to me to admitting
in court to what may well be a criminal action.

That is why you should always use a credit card when making a large
purchase. There are state and federal laws that offer you protections.
Debit cards do not have this protection. Now.. YOUR bank may offer it on
debit purchases but hey are not required to do so Using a debit card is the
same as writing a check with the handicap of your monies being withdrawn
immediately (i.e. you can not stop payment)



"Lee Ayrton" <layrton@REMOVE_ME.panix.com> wrote in message
news:e0mo25$193$1@reader1.panix.com...
>
> Won't that likely result in the credit card company suspending the card's
> account too, until they decide who is going to pay them? I've no
> experience in such things.
>
>
> billy ray wrote:
>> You can also refer the problem to your credit card company. If you paid
>> for a remanufactured transmission and you received a rebuilt one they
>> will intercede for you.
>>
>> In the short run they will remove the charge from your bill while they
>> investigate. If they find in your favor they will cancel the charge to
>> your account and charge it back to the shop.
>>
>> At that point you will have your Jeep with its rebuild transmission and
>> no payments....
>>
>> "Earle Horton" <nurse--NOSPAM--busters@msn.com> wrote in message
>> news:442afe9a$0$20703$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.c om...
>>
>>>I haven't worked in this industry for quite some time, but I understand
>>>that
>>>torque converters cannot be rebuilt, refurbished, remanufactured or
>>>whatever
>>>you want to call it. It was decades ago when they stopped putting drain
>>>plugs in them, so you cannot even change the oil properly. In 1978, they
>>>told us that if a transmission had burned oil in it, the torque converter
>>>was junk.
>>>
>>>It is fraud, a criminal offense, to sell used parts as new. They have to
>>>be
>>>identified on an invoice, as "used torque converter", "used widget", etc.
>>>Failure to do so is a form of theft.
>>>
>>>In my experience it takes a little work to be honest and ethical, but it
>>>is
>>>easier in the long run, not to have to make up all those excuses, and you
>>>get to sleep at night. Sadly, the majority of people don't even try to
>>>be
>>>honest. They just do whatever is convenient, or what they think other
>>>people are doing. One thing you can count on though, is consistency. If
>>>people are honest, they are honest all the time. If people are
>>>dishonest,
>>>they are dishonest all the time. You should call your state's attorney
>>>general. If they have laws, then maybe they have someone to enforce
>>>them.
>>>
>>>Earle
>>><lanceandrew@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>news:1143655357.211987.63970@v46g2000cwv.google groups.com...
>>>
>>>>>Since you've already paid the man, the only thing left to work out is
>>>>
>>>>the warranty length.
>>>>_
>>>>
>>>>Spoke to the shop manager today and told him I was uncomfortable with
>>>>signing the work order/invoice form with pick up of the car as it was
>>>>not consistent with our agreement in 3 areas, and also let him know
>>>>those 3 areas amounted to a violation of NY State law.
>>>>
>>>>He conceded on 2 of these areas they dropped the ball (not informing me
>>>>of additional parts, etc.) and revising the warranty after the fact
>>>>(they want me to come in at the mid-way point of the warranty for a $95
>>>>transmission servicing to keep the warranty valid). I did not mention
>>>>this nugget in my OP however what they laced into the invoice/work
>>>>order to sign off. It's not an issue of it being good/wise after
>>>>receiving a transmission job, it's an issue of another term,
>>>>undisclosed on the front end, and dropped on me at the back end.
>>>>
>>>>I said, "why did you not tell me the warranty required this condition"?
>>>> He minimized its importance as having to be mentioned on the front
>>>>end. I told him ethically he should say the warranty requires a $95
>>>>check-up servicing midway. If you're going to verbally present it as a
>>>>carrot....he should disclose this pivotal condition, no? He agreed to
>>>>eat the $95 mid-way check up. I said, "that's not the point", "the
>>>>point is being ethically straight and clear up front before the fact"
>>>>and not allowing for any misunderstanding or misinterpretation, etc.
>>>>
>>>>Which all lead to the major point of concern, a reman transmission
>>>>versues a rebuild. He parsed words, was extremely defensive but
>>>>generally spoke to me like I was incapable of discerning the
>>>>distinction between the two. I had to tell him there are clear
>>>>distinctions, written in law, between reman and used/rebuild, etc.
>>>>He finally said to me, "what do you want me to do?", I said, "honor the
>>>>agreement". He said they don't do remans, only rebuilds.
>>>>
>>>>He said if I want I can have a transmission sent to his shop and he'll
>>>>install it and all I will pay is labor. I can do that for $550 (get a
>>>>trans over there delivered). I sent him a fax telling him at this
>>>>juncture I would agree to the following; Take the Jeep now and Pay him
>>>>$975 (price he originally quoted for a used trans) + $375 labor + oil.
>>>>I told him the Torque Converter thing he pulled (by the way, he
>>>>salvaged and refurbed my original for some other customer or something)
>>>>was a violation of law but I will meet him 1/2 on that price. In sum
>>>>with tax the whole job would cost me $1,600. I paid him the $2K with a
>>>>credit card so I can reverse that.
>>>>
>>>>I told him this was my best effort to make the most out of the
>>>>situation at this point and not something I would be satisfied with but
>>>>would deal with. Either this or have all my parts returned, pull out
>>>>the trans installed, and I will have my Jeep towed else way. And if
>>>>this was not acceptable we would just be heading into the direction of
>>>>a legal quagmire, something I want to avert.
>>>>
>>>>So who knows. I think what happend here is the vendor (repair shop)
>>>>did not appreciate the customer might well know the distinction between
>>>>"reman" and used and or refurbed or rebuilt. Beyond the
>>>>mechancial/procedural distinctions, there are legal distinctions,
>>>>actual State Laws governing this auto repair shops and parts when this
>>>>"remanufactured" language is used. Even this Torque Convert itemized
>>>>on my invoice...it does not say used or reman'ed and the absence of
>>>>that language makes one believe it's new. However state law in NY
>>>>requires used parts to be, on record identified as indeed "used parts".
>>>> Failure to do so is technically a violation of law.
>>>>
>>>>There are few things as cherished to people than a straight shooting
>>>>mechanics that you can trust. God Bless all you that instill
>>>>confidence and comfort in your clients. I would not even get upset
>>>>over a mechanic performing something without informing me and paying
>>>>him. My only problem with that in this case is the series of "things"
>>>>done not quite right ultimately add up and paint a suspect picture...
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
>>>*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from
>>>http://www.SecureIX.com ***
>>
>>
>>
>

billy ray

Nope... They temporarily remove the charge from your account. If they rule
in your favor they credit the amount back to you ( completely remove the
charge) and then charge it back to the vendor by withholding that amount in
payments to him..

I rented a car from Enterprise and they charged me 10 days while I only had
it for 9 which was documented on the contract and receipt. My calling and
writing to the company had no effect...

I wrote a letter to Visa and enclosed copied of the documentation and notes
on when I called, who I spoke to, etc. I got a letter back telling me the
charge had been temporarily removed pending investigation. When the next
billing cycle came around the charge was there and the exact same amount
credited back.

I expected to see a prorated charge for 9 days appear but over the next
several months it never did. When I called Visa they told me that they
voided the entire transaction as they deemed it fraudulent.

Now I suppose Enterprise could have sued me in court but imagine the wording
in the filing.

"We, Enterprise Rent-a-Car, knowingly and with malice charged the defendant
an amount in excess of our agreed daily charge, as documented by the written
agreement, with the sole intent to steal from him."

I'm not a shyster (or even a lawyer) but that would seem to me to admitting
in court to what may well be a criminal action.

That is why you should always use a credit card when making a large
purchase. There are state and federal laws that offer you protections.
Debit cards do not have this protection. Now.. YOUR bank may offer it on
debit purchases but hey are not required to do so Using a debit card is the
same as writing a check with the handicap of your monies being withdrawn
immediately (i.e. you can not stop payment)



"Lee Ayrton" <layrton@REMOVE_ME.panix.com> wrote in message
news:e0mo25$193$1@reader1.panix.com...
>
> Won't that likely result in the credit card company suspending the card's
> account too, until they decide who is going to pay them? I've no
> experience in such things.
>
>
> billy ray wrote:
>> You can also refer the problem to your credit card company. If you paid
>> for a remanufactured transmission and you received a rebuilt one they
>> will intercede for you.
>>
>> In the short run they will remove the charge from your bill while they
>> investigate. If they find in your favor they will cancel the charge to
>> your account and charge it back to the shop.
>>
>> At that point you will have your Jeep with its rebuild transmission and
>> no payments....
>>
>> "Earle Horton" <nurse--NOSPAM--busters@msn.com> wrote in message
>> news:442afe9a$0$20703$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.c om...
>>
>>>I haven't worked in this industry for quite some time, but I understand
>>>that
>>>torque converters cannot be rebuilt, refurbished, remanufactured or
>>>whatever
>>>you want to call it. It was decades ago when they stopped putting drain
>>>plugs in them, so you cannot even change the oil properly. In 1978, they
>>>told us that if a transmission had burned oil in it, the torque converter
>>>was junk.
>>>
>>>It is fraud, a criminal offense, to sell used parts as new. They have to
>>>be
>>>identified on an invoice, as "used torque converter", "used widget", etc.
>>>Failure to do so is a form of theft.
>>>
>>>In my experience it takes a little work to be honest and ethical, but it
>>>is
>>>easier in the long run, not to have to make up all those excuses, and you
>>>get to sleep at night. Sadly, the majority of people don't even try to
>>>be
>>>honest. They just do whatever is convenient, or what they think other
>>>people are doing. One thing you can count on though, is consistency. If
>>>people are honest, they are honest all the time. If people are
>>>dishonest,
>>>they are dishonest all the time. You should call your state's attorney
>>>general. If they have laws, then maybe they have someone to enforce
>>>them.
>>>
>>>Earle
>>><lanceandrew@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>news:1143655357.211987.63970@v46g2000cwv.google groups.com...
>>>
>>>>>Since you've already paid the man, the only thing left to work out is
>>>>
>>>>the warranty length.
>>>>_
>>>>
>>>>Spoke to the shop manager today and told him I was uncomfortable with
>>>>signing the work order/invoice form with pick up of the car as it was
>>>>not consistent with our agreement in 3 areas, and also let him know
>>>>those 3 areas amounted to a violation of NY State law.
>>>>
>>>>He conceded on 2 of these areas they dropped the ball (not informing me
>>>>of additional parts, etc.) and revising the warranty after the fact
>>>>(they want me to come in at the mid-way point of the warranty for a $95
>>>>transmission servicing to keep the warranty valid). I did not mention
>>>>this nugget in my OP however what they laced into the invoice/work
>>>>order to sign off. It's not an issue of it being good/wise after
>>>>receiving a transmission job, it's an issue of another term,
>>>>undisclosed on the front end, and dropped on me at the back end.
>>>>
>>>>I said, "why did you not tell me the warranty required this condition"?
>>>> He minimized its importance as having to be mentioned on the front
>>>>end. I told him ethically he should say the warranty requires a $95
>>>>check-up servicing midway. If you're going to verbally present it as a
>>>>carrot....he should disclose this pivotal condition, no? He agreed to
>>>>eat the $95 mid-way check up. I said, "that's not the point", "the
>>>>point is being ethically straight and clear up front before the fact"
>>>>and not allowing for any misunderstanding or misinterpretation, etc.
>>>>
>>>>Which all lead to the major point of concern, a reman transmission
>>>>versues a rebuild. He parsed words, was extremely defensive but
>>>>generally spoke to me like I was incapable of discerning the
>>>>distinction between the two. I had to tell him there are clear
>>>>distinctions, written in law, between reman and used/rebuild, etc.
>>>>He finally said to me, "what do you want me to do?", I said, "honor the
>>>>agreement". He said they don't do remans, only rebuilds.
>>>>
>>>>He said if I want I can have a transmission sent to his shop and he'll
>>>>install it and all I will pay is labor. I can do that for $550 (get a
>>>>trans over there delivered). I sent him a fax telling him at this
>>>>juncture I would agree to the following; Take the Jeep now and Pay him
>>>>$975 (price he originally quoted for a used trans) + $375 labor + oil.
>>>>I told him the Torque Converter thing he pulled (by the way, he
>>>>salvaged and refurbed my original for some other customer or something)
>>>>was a violation of law but I will meet him 1/2 on that price. In sum
>>>>with tax the whole job would cost me $1,600. I paid him the $2K with a
>>>>credit card so I can reverse that.
>>>>
>>>>I told him this was my best effort to make the most out of the
>>>>situation at this point and not something I would be satisfied with but
>>>>would deal with. Either this or have all my parts returned, pull out
>>>>the trans installed, and I will have my Jeep towed else way. And if
>>>>this was not acceptable we would just be heading into the direction of
>>>>a legal quagmire, something I want to avert.
>>>>
>>>>So who knows. I think what happend here is the vendor (repair shop)
>>>>did not appreciate the customer might well know the distinction between
>>>>"reman" and used and or refurbed or rebuilt. Beyond the
>>>>mechancial/procedural distinctions, there are legal distinctions,
>>>>actual State Laws governing this auto repair shops and parts when this
>>>>"remanufactured" language is used. Even this Torque Convert itemized
>>>>on my invoice...it does not say used or reman'ed and the absence of
>>>>that language makes one believe it's new. However state law in NY
>>>>requires used parts to be, on record identified as indeed "used parts".
>>>> Failure to do so is technically a violation of law.
>>>>
>>>>There are few things as cherished to people than a straight shooting
>>>>mechanics that you can trust. God Bless all you that instill
>>>>confidence and comfort in your clients. I would not even get upset
>>>>over a mechanic performing something without informing me and paying
>>>>him. My only problem with that in this case is the series of "things"
>>>>done not quite right ultimately add up and paint a suspect picture...
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
>>>*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from
>>>http://www.SecureIX.com ***
>>
>>
>>
>