Re: tow vehicle suggestions
 

While not germaine to the original question, do you have any idea WHY
the tow rating is degraded with the manual tranny? Same engine, same
brakes, same running gear, but 3000# lower towing limit. I could
never figure that one out. The MJ with the heavy duty package was
rated 7000# and the only difference was a D44 rearend and (probably)
larger brakes. As a practical matter, towing with a 5-spd makes for
an interesting clutch manipulation breaking free a heavy load but why
the difference in ratings limit?

BTW, with a decent hitch and pintle hookup I had no problems pulling
4-5 ton hay trailers all over the farm last summer but that was
usually 4-LO and maybe 5mph max <g>. Not dumb enough (yet) to try
that on pavement.

On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:25:57 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

> Just a thought.
>
> The Cherokee automatic is rated for 5000 lb towing, the 5 speed is only
> rated for the 2000 lb according to my Cherokee owners manual.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> "E.L. Lambert" wrote:
> >
> > i am in the market for a vehicle that will see dual use as a daily
> > driver (40 freeway miles per day) and also for towing my jeep to the
> > trail.
> >
> > i am trying to decide what kind of vehicle to get and i would like to
> > hear what others have to say on this. i need more a people hauler and
> > not a work vehicle so i have ruled out large pickups such as the
> > f-250. i also don't want to break the bank so i have ruled out high
> > end SUVs such as the hummer and escalade.
> >
> > that leaves two options: 1. midsize SUVs such as the GMC Jimmy (sorry
> > cherokee fans - DCs website says you can only tow 2000 pounds, and i
> > figure a loaded trail jeep + full trailer is at least 5 or 6 thousand
> > pounds, which the jimmy can manage, just barely) or 2. heavy sedans
> > such as the cadillac seville, lincoln towncar, or mercedes e500.
> >
> > anyone want to share their experiences with tow vehicles?


--
Will Honea

Re: tow vehicle suggestions
 

On 30 Sep 2003 02:45:38 GMT, "Will Honea" <will@codenet.net> wrote:

>While not germaine to the original question, do you have any idea WHY
>the tow rating is degraded with the manual tranny? Same engine, same
>brakes, same running gear, but 3000# lower towing limit. I could
>never figure that one out.

The problem is the clutch and low gear. To get the load moving you have to slip
the clutch, or have an extremely low first gear. With an auto the converter
slips for you giving the equivalent of an ultra-low first gear.

Dean

Re: tow vehicle suggestions
 

On 30 Sep 2003 02:45:38 GMT, "Will Honea" <will@codenet.net> wrote:

>While not germaine to the original question, do you have any idea WHY
>the tow rating is degraded with the manual tranny? Same engine, same
>brakes, same running gear, but 3000# lower towing limit. I could
>never figure that one out.

The problem is the clutch and low gear. To get the load moving you have to slip
the clutch, or have an extremely low first gear. With an auto the converter
slips for you giving the equivalent of an ultra-low first gear.

Dean

Re: tow vehicle suggestions
 

I am guessing the clutch and 1st gear vs a torque converter figure in
there.

I am also guessing the auto tranny shifts the weight ratio toward the
rear wheels more than a standard because of its heavier weight and
longer length giving the rear wheels slightly more traction or better
said I guess, slightly more resistance to being pushed out sideways.

Just guesses....

Mike

Will Honea wrote:
>
> While not germaine to the original question, do you have any idea WHY
> the tow rating is degraded with the manual tranny? Same engine, same
> brakes, same running gear, but 3000# lower towing limit. I could
> never figure that one out. The MJ with the heavy duty package was
> rated 7000# and the only difference was a D44 rearend and (probably)
> larger brakes. As a practical matter, towing with a 5-spd makes for
> an interesting clutch manipulation breaking free a heavy load but why
> the difference in ratings limit?
>
> BTW, with a decent hitch and pintle hookup I had no problems pulling
> 4-5 ton hay trailers all over the farm last summer but that was
> usually 4-LO and maybe 5mph max <g>. Not dumb enough (yet) to try
> that on pavement.
>
> On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:25:57 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > Just a thought.
> >
> > The Cherokee automatic is rated for 5000 lb towing, the 5 speed is only
> > rated for the 2000 lb according to my Cherokee owners manual.
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > "E.L. Lambert" wrote:
> > >
> > > i am in the market for a vehicle that will see dual use as a daily
> > > driver (40 freeway miles per day) and also for towing my jeep to the
> > > trail.
> > >
> > > i am trying to decide what kind of vehicle to get and i would like to
> > > hear what others have to say on this. i need more a people hauler and
> > > not a work vehicle so i have ruled out large pickups such as the
> > > f-250. i also don't want to break the bank so i have ruled out high
> > > end SUVs such as the hummer and escalade.
> > >
> > > that leaves two options: 1. midsize SUVs such as the GMC Jimmy (sorry
> > > cherokee fans - DCs website says you can only tow 2000 pounds, and i
> > > figure a loaded trail jeep + full trailer is at least 5 or 6 thousand
> > > pounds, which the jimmy can manage, just barely) or 2. heavy sedans
> > > such as the cadillac seville, lincoln towncar, or mercedes e500.
> > >
> > > anyone want to share their experiences with tow vehicles?
>
> --
> Will Honea

Re: tow vehicle suggestions
 

I am guessing the clutch and 1st gear vs a torque converter figure in
there.

I am also guessing the auto tranny shifts the weight ratio toward the
rear wheels more than a standard because of its heavier weight and
longer length giving the rear wheels slightly more traction or better
said I guess, slightly more resistance to being pushed out sideways.

Just guesses....

Mike

Will Honea wrote:
>
> While not germaine to the original question, do you have any idea WHY
> the tow rating is degraded with the manual tranny? Same engine, same
> brakes, same running gear, but 3000# lower towing limit. I could
> never figure that one out. The MJ with the heavy duty package was
> rated 7000# and the only difference was a D44 rearend and (probably)
> larger brakes. As a practical matter, towing with a 5-spd makes for
> an interesting clutch manipulation breaking free a heavy load but why
> the difference in ratings limit?
>
> BTW, with a decent hitch and pintle hookup I had no problems pulling
> 4-5 ton hay trailers all over the farm last summer but that was
> usually 4-LO and maybe 5mph max <g>. Not dumb enough (yet) to try
> that on pavement.
>
> On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:25:57 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > Just a thought.
> >
> > The Cherokee automatic is rated for 5000 lb towing, the 5 speed is only
> > rated for the 2000 lb according to my Cherokee owners manual.
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > "E.L. Lambert" wrote:
> > >
> > > i am in the market for a vehicle that will see dual use as a daily
> > > driver (40 freeway miles per day) and also for towing my jeep to the
> > > trail.
> > >
> > > i am trying to decide what kind of vehicle to get and i would like to
> > > hear what others have to say on this. i need more a people hauler and
> > > not a work vehicle so i have ruled out large pickups such as the
> > > f-250. i also don't want to break the bank so i have ruled out high
> > > end SUVs such as the hummer and escalade.
> > >
> > > that leaves two options: 1. midsize SUVs such as the GMC Jimmy (sorry
> > > cherokee fans - DCs website says you can only tow 2000 pounds, and i
> > > figure a loaded trail jeep + full trailer is at least 5 or 6 thousand
> > > pounds, which the jimmy can manage, just barely) or 2. heavy sedans
> > > such as the cadillac seville, lincoln towncar, or mercedes e500.
> > >
> > > anyone want to share their experiences with tow vehicles?
>
> --
> Will Honea

Re: tow vehicle suggestions
 

Oh man, where do you come up with this stuff?

It is quite simple.

It is totally illegal to tow anything more than the door sticker or
owners manual states is the GVWR with trailer.

If you get hit by someone and the cops come, 'you' are the one going to
be busted. (been there, done that, got minorly rear ended, trailer
ended up behind a police ordered tow truck)

If you hit someone such as a kid that jumps out from the front of a van,
having an overload trailer turns an accident into vehicular manslaughter
and can totally ruin your day, or decade, depending on how long they
toss you in jail for.

The cops also specifically watch out for overloaded trailers, the
newspaper recently said they nailed something like 15 overloaded
trailers the last long weekend.

And 'Yes', the highway patrol do carry portable scales in their trunks
to check.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Joshua Nelson wrote:
>
> Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
> are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
> looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
> lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
> in the manual to cover their butts.
>
> There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
> you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
> duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
> cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more. However if you
> want to drive at max speed and haul something over the continental
> divide that is another matter entirely... so scale your expectations
> accordingly.

Re: tow vehicle suggestions
 

Oh man, where do you come up with this stuff?

It is quite simple.

It is totally illegal to tow anything more than the door sticker or
owners manual states is the GVWR with trailer.

If you get hit by someone and the cops come, 'you' are the one going to
be busted. (been there, done that, got minorly rear ended, trailer
ended up behind a police ordered tow truck)

If you hit someone such as a kid that jumps out from the front of a van,
having an overload trailer turns an accident into vehicular manslaughter
and can totally ruin your day, or decade, depending on how long they
toss you in jail for.

The cops also specifically watch out for overloaded trailers, the
newspaper recently said they nailed something like 15 overloaded
trailers the last long weekend.

And 'Yes', the highway patrol do carry portable scales in their trunks
to check.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Joshua Nelson wrote:
>
> Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
> are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
> looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
> lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
> in the manual to cover their butts.
>
> There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
> you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
> duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
> cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more. However if you
> want to drive at max speed and haul something over the continental
> divide that is another matter entirely... so scale your expectations
> accordingly.

Re: tow vehicle suggestions
 

Actually, if you look back at this message thread, someone has posted
that per DC specs, the only thing keeping a Cherokee from towing 5000
lbs (the ballpark figure I threw out) is a manual transmission. I
understand there is some residual hostility toward me for the big
Joshua vs. Cal Wheeler fight, but it appears I'm not in the wrong
here.

I also stand by the statement that how much you can tow will vary with
numerous towing conditions, and it's ridiculous to expect the same
equipment to perform identically on a low-speed tow in florida and a
freeway speed tow in Colorado. That's just common sense.

(Side note: I too don't understand why a manual transmission Cherokee
would be an impairment vs. an automatic. If I recall correctly, the
last time I looked at the TJ manual, the 2.5L TJs are actually the
OPPOSITE: The manual transmission can tow 2000 pounds, the automatic
only 1000. Weird.)


rdbillsjr@aol.comxxxxxxxx (Robert Bills) wrote in message news:<20030929184935.27697.00000017@mb-m04.aol.com>...
> Joshua Nelson wrote:
>
>
>
> >Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt <snip>
> >If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000 lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put
> "don't
> >tow more than 2,000 lbs" in the manual to cover their butts. <snip> If you're
> towing on
> >flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine
> >and heavy duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
> >cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more.
>
> Joshua,
>
> Your un-informed "advice" is going to get someone killed. There is a lot more
> to towing than weight ratings. A Cherokee is too light AND has too short a
> wheelbase to safely tow a jeep.
>
> You shouldn't give advice unless you know what you're talking about.
>
>
> Robert Bills
> KG6LMV
> Orange County CA
>
> http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
> http://www.RobertBills.com

Re: tow vehicle suggestions
 

Actually, if you look back at this message thread, someone has posted
that per DC specs, the only thing keeping a Cherokee from towing 5000
lbs (the ballpark figure I threw out) is a manual transmission. I
understand there is some residual hostility toward me for the big
Joshua vs. Cal Wheeler fight, but it appears I'm not in the wrong
here.

I also stand by the statement that how much you can tow will vary with
numerous towing conditions, and it's ridiculous to expect the same
equipment to perform identically on a low-speed tow in florida and a
freeway speed tow in Colorado. That's just common sense.

(Side note: I too don't understand why a manual transmission Cherokee
would be an impairment vs. an automatic. If I recall correctly, the
last time I looked at the TJ manual, the 2.5L TJs are actually the
OPPOSITE: The manual transmission can tow 2000 pounds, the automatic
only 1000. Weird.)


rdbillsjr@aol.comxxxxxxxx (Robert Bills) wrote in message news:<20030929184935.27697.00000017@mb-m04.aol.com>...
> Joshua Nelson wrote:
>
>
>
> >Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt <snip>
> >If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000 lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put
> "don't
> >tow more than 2,000 lbs" in the manual to cover their butts. <snip> If you're
> towing on
> >flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine
> >and heavy duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
> >cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more.
>
> Joshua,
>
> Your un-informed "advice" is going to get someone killed. There is a lot more
> to towing than weight ratings. A Cherokee is too light AND has too short a
> wheelbase to safely tow a jeep.
>
> You shouldn't give advice unless you know what you're talking about.
>
>
> Robert Bills
> KG6LMV
> Orange County CA
>
> http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
> http://www.RobertBills.com

Re: tow vehicle suggestions
 

Josh,
I truly anticipate your every post...
Joe

"Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:b102b6e4.0309300534.23c9f17f@posting.google.c om...
> Actually, if you look back at this message thread, someone has posted
> that per DC specs, the only thing keeping a Cherokee from towing 5000
> lbs (the ballpark figure I threw out) is a manual transmission. I
> understand there is some residual hostility toward me for the big
> Joshua vs. Cal Wheeler fight, but it appears I'm not in the wrong
> here.
>
> I also stand by the statement that how much you can tow will vary with
> numerous towing conditions, and it's ridiculous to expect the same
> equipment to perform identically on a low-speed tow in florida and a
> freeway speed tow in Colorado. That's just common sense.
>
> (Side note: I too don't understand why a manual transmission Cherokee
> would be an impairment vs. an automatic. If I recall correctly, the
> last time I looked at the TJ manual, the 2.5L TJs are actually the
> OPPOSITE: The manual transmission can tow 2000 pounds, the automatic
> only 1000. Weird.)
>
>
> rdbillsjr@aol.comxxxxxxxx (Robert Bills) wrote in message
news:<20030929184935.27697.00000017@mb-m04.aol.com>...
> > Joshua Nelson wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > >Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt <snip>
> > >If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000 lbs, they probably divide by 3 and
put
> > "don't
> > >tow more than 2,000 lbs" in the manual to cover their butts. <snip> If
you're
> > towing on
> > >flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine
> > >and heavy duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no
reason a
> > >cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more.
> >
> > Joshua,
> >
> > Your un-informed "advice" is going to get someone killed. There is a
lot more
> > to towing than weight ratings. A Cherokee is too light AND has too
short a
> > wheelbase to safely tow a jeep.
> >
> > You shouldn't give advice unless you know what you're talking about.
> >
> >
> > Robert Bills
> > KG6LMV
> > Orange County CA
> >
> > http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
> > http://www.RobertBills.com