c

C'mon Steve, think about it. Why does every single manufacturer have a 3
step torque sequence in a specific pattern when installing heads? Do you
really think these guys sit at their desks and dream up a "special" way of
tightening head bolts just for ***** and giggles? Think about what a head
gasket goes thru in its life cycle. Heating repeatedly from up to -40F up to
220+F at least once a day, subjected to 150PSI and then 20" of vacuum
several times a second, its exposed to hot oil, antifreeze and fire. Engines
with aluminum heads also experience different expansion rates between the
block and heads due to dissimilar metal. Cast iron does to a lesser degree
because of the vast difference in the shapes of the components. All this
from a gasket that is less than 1/16" thick. Yeah, I'll chance removing
bolts and possibly sacrificing the integrity of my measly head gasket for a
mere $40, not. I'm glad you don't rebuild my engines.

Chris


"Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in message
news:m0boc.447694$oR5.165620@pd7tw3no...
> Come on guys, think about this. You've got two heavey cast items bolted
> together by what, a dozen bolts. You think if you loosen 2 that the head
is
> going to twist so much that the spot where you've removed the bolts is
going
> to spring up and seperate the gasket? Yes, by all means warn the mechanic
> that if he does remove those bolts to watch out that the rebounding cyl
head
> doesn't hit him in the eye!
> Give the poor shop guy a break. You will accomplish absolutely
nothing
> by making him replace that gasket except **** him off and waste everyone's
> time and money. Nowhere in any machinist/engine rebuilder's manuals is it
> going to give the assembler a layout for stud headbolts for all vehicles
> that the engines could go into. If it was such a critical factor don't
you
> think the engine manufacturers would have come up with such a thing a long
> time ago. If this were the case long blocks would be delivered with the
> heads not installed so that head bolts can be arranged as required for the
> particular vehicle it's going into. This happens all the time and is done
> all the time. Don't make him do it just because "you paid a lot for the
> job". Make him do something if it's the right thing to do and this is
> definately not it. I've been a licensed Interprovincial Journeyman
mechanic
> since 1972 and I will bet anything anyone here wants to cover that
switching
> those bolts will not be responsible for any premature gasket failure. It
> always used to frost me when armchair mechanics would come in and tell me
> how to do things, how long it should take and how much I should charge.
Why
> the hell weren't they in the business?
> All you skeptics should try this little test. Stand beside a 4.0 l
> block and lower the cyl head on being carefull to pinch a piece of loose
> skin, perhaps on your hammer. Now fully torque all bolts to spec. Next,
> remove any two bolts and try to pull your hammer out. See, no loss of
> tension.
> Steve G.
> "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
> news:%3Ync.52725$u_4.9998@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > Dont lose faith Bill. Sometimes the projects that are the most trouble
> turn
> > out the best, if that makes any sense. The price for your rebuild is
high
> > compared to what we pay here, but it is probably in line with your area.
I
> > don't know what the prices are like for engine shops there, so maybe all
> is
> > fine. I will stick to my guns on the fact that, for what you are paying
> for
> > the job, the guy should replace the head gasket, no questions asked.
Maybe
> > having worked in an engine shop for several years building very high
> strung
> > racing engines has made me more critical of what I would consider subpar
> > work. Like I said in my previous post, your gasket MAY never fail
because
> of
> > changing those bolts, but think about it this way: do you really want to
> > have to worry about it out on a trail, or worry about it everytime you
> start
> > your Jeep? I would personally hate to get stranded somewhere in BFE
> because
> > of a failure that could have easily been prevented with a simple gasket
> > replacement.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > news:2gai14Fl3atU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > > Well let me just say that you guys are giving me a big fat knot in my
> > > stomach. :-).
> > >
> > > As I mentioned before, I did a lot of leg work in this area to find a
> good
> > > shop for R&R and machine and Chris thinks I paid way too much for the
> > > rebuild.
> > >
> > > Sounds like I just need to move the heck out of this state.
> > >
> > > Hopefully I have a jeep at the end of all this otherwise I'll push it
> into
> > a
> > > crater somewhere or blow the thing up.
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:40A00749.413F24BB@sympatico.ca...
> > > > I have seen that head gasket separation too many times....
> > > >
> > > > I used to run a 1275 CC block with an 1100 cc head on it for the
> > > > compression boost from the smaller dome with the same sized valves
in
> an
> > > > old Mini and that had a mis matched gasket like Bill's does.
> > > >
> > > > I ran it fast sometimes, LOL, radar clocked at 132.4 mph and it was
a
> > > > 'real' bugger to keep a head gasket in it. (loved to top out the
'hot
> > > > rod' 1/4 mile Camaros and Vettes as I hit 4th at 104 mph @ 5000 rpm
or
> > > > so and waved as I went by)
> > > >
> > > > My buddy and I had a head gasket swap down to 30 minutes....
> > > >
> > > > The British Leyland dealer thought they had a bad batch of gaskets
> until
> > > > they called me in for a 'free' check of my 'built' engine that a
Mini
> > > > guru they know well made... It broke the first compression gauge,
> > > > popped the pin off.
> > > >
> > > > The starter would barely turn it over and it was a 'thumper' for
idle
> > > > with a 2 1/2" straight pipe and glass pack.
> > > >
> > > > I don't think Bill wants to get that good at swapping head gaskets
> > > > unless he had the benefits I had....
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > > c wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I just have to add my 2 cents here Bill. I hope to heck that
> whatever
> > > they
> > > > > do to fix the bolt problem works out for you. Things like this
make
> me
> > > glad
> > > > > that I rebuild my own stuff. Anyway, for what you paid for the
> > rebuild,
> > > I
> > > > > would insist that they change the head gasket. I don't know what
> type
> > of
> > > > > gasket they used, but some of them form quite a bond to the head
and
> > > block
> > > > > surfaces, so relaxing the bolt torque could cause the gasket
layers
> to
> > > > > separate slightly. Then it becomes leak time. Like Mike said,
since
> > > there
> > > > > were different types of bolts for the heads, the guy should have
at
> > > least
> > > > > asked you where the special bracket bolt belonged, unless he knew
> for
> > > sure
> > > > > (which he didn't). The second thing here that would raise a red
flag
> > is
> > > the
> > > > > fact that the rebuilder didn't insist on changing the gasket after
> his
> > > oops.
> > > > > I rebuild engines in my own shop and would never risk that. Is he
> > going
> > > to
> > > > > do all the labor and reimburse you for your car rental, towing,
etc.
> > if
> > > the
> > > > > gasket fails? If not, I would insist he change the gasket. The
> gasket
> > is
> > > > > probably about $40 at most, and and hour or two of his time to do
it
> > > right.
> > > > > IMHO, this sounds like poor quality work.
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris
> > > > >
> > > > > "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:2ga6scFhuirU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > > > > > Ha ha.... I'm getting to know you well Mike. After the last
> post
> > > that I
> > > > > > knew you'd have that reply as I was thinking I'd have the same
> > reply.
> > > :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for the Devil's Advocate. I certainly hope my 'luck'
> doesn't
> > > fall
> > > > > > into the 'bad' category from here out. I'm already shot to my
> bones
> > > with
> > > > > > nerves on this one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Come on housing crash so I can afford my own garage :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bill
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:409FE117.73D0C0AD@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > I just like to play the devil's advocate some days Bill, I
hope
> it
> > > works
> > > > > > > out great for you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Still, not knowing where the freaking bolts go sure doesn't
> > instill
> > > > > > > confidence in the statement 'I choose him because he has done
> this
> > > mod
> > > > > > > before and is fully familiar with it.'
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike, the mechanic didn't put the thing together. The
> > > > > rebuilder/machine
> > > > > > > > shop did. They did the rebuild on the short block and put
my
> > > > > previously
> > > > > > > > machined 4.0L head on it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There are two entities in this process. 1. the R&R guy,
you
> > can
> > > call
> > > > > > him a
> > > > > > > > mechanic. 2. The Machine Shop/Rebuilder.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > #2 is the one who bolted the thing together and I choose him
> > > because
> > > > > he
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > done this mod before and is fully familiar with it. This
guy
> > has
> > > a
> > > > > > history
> > > > > > > > of jeeps including racing sand jeeps. He's the best I could
> > find
> > > in
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > area for this application.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > He warranties the work for a year.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > He confirmed that it would be no problem for #1 (mechanic)
to
> > > change
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > bolts so if he's wrong he'll have to fix it if it comes down
> to
> > > it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:409FD597.39970CF5@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > > He already has a mis match on the head gasket Steve.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > He is putting a 4.0 head onto a 4.2 block. That makes it
a
> > > > > 'twitchy'
> > > > > > > > > installation to start.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 'I' would not take a chance on blowing a new engine for
> > > something
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > dumb.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Maybe that is just me, but.... If I forked out in the
order
> > of
> > > $2K
> > > > > > plus
> > > > > > > > > I most certainly would not take a chance on a head gasket
> that
> > > > > 'might
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > might not' be compromised.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have assembled and have seen assembled a whole pile of
> > engines
> > > > > over
> > > > > > > > > the years and most people, let alone 'mechanics' stop and
> > think
> > > when
> > > > > > > > > they find 2 head bolts that are nutted studs instead of
> bolts.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It seem 'logical' that these 'strange' bolt like things
> should
> > > go
> > > > > > > > > somewhere special eh?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > One is for the bracket, the other goes on the back drivers
> > side
> > > > > corner
> > > > > > > > > for the ground strap to bolt onto.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In all due fairness poor Bill's 'mechanic' is kinda on the
> > brain
> > > > > dead
> > > > > > > > > side to just put it together wrong without checking
wouldn't
> > you
> > > > > say?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Steve G wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I've done it hundreds of times and there won't be a
> problem
> > > > > > switching
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > bolts and just re-torquing those two. In all probability
> > it's
> > > one
> > > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > outside bolts which are the last to be torqued in the
> > sequence
> > > > > > anyways.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In all fairness to the mechanic Mike, these guys have no
> way
> > > of
> > > > > > knowing
> > > > > > > > > > which bolt is supposed to have the stud on it and
> different
> > > > > > > > installations
> > > > > > > > > > sometimes have different positions for that bolt. May
not
> > be
> > > the
> > > > > > case
> > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > all 4.0, although I doubt that they all come the same
way
> > in
> > > all
> > > > > > > > > > applications. I know for a fact lots of Pontiac, Buick
> and
> > > Olds
> > > > > > v-8's
> > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > have the head bolts with the stud on it in different
> > locations
> > > > > > depending
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > what model vehicle it was going in and the assembler
would
> > > have no
> > > > > > way
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > knowing.
> > > > > > > > > > Steve G.
> > > > > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > > news:409FC445.928E9186@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > > > > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come
> from....
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have any
> > luck
> > > at
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt
> engine
> > > with
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > already 'blown' head gasket.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Head gaskets only compress once.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail
> in
> > > '00
> > > > > > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Just had my engine rebuilt. New cam, new crank
10/10,
> > new
> > > > > > bearings,
> > > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > > > pistons and rings, flywheel balanced and all married
> up
> > to
> > > my
> > > > > > 4.0L
> > > > > > > > head
> > > > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > > > > the door.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Now the R&R guy has noticed one of the head bolts is
> out
> > > of
> > > > > > position
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > power steering bracket so he needs to switch them.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Is there any problem switching two head bolts which
> > reside
> > > > > side
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > side
> > > > > > > > > > > > without going through the entire torquing sequence
> > again?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > That is, can these two bolts be taking out,
switched,
> > put
> > > back
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > torqued down without any problems?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > R&R guy says no problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

Hi Del,
I don't think the rebuilder got the engine whole, remember Bill had
an injected 4.0 head on a forty over 258" block, he got back a ten, ten.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> The difference is, the OP hired a shop to have HIS engine rebuilt. It
> is not too much to expect that it be returned to him with all of the
> bolts in the correct place. The guy took this specific engine apart and
> he should be able to put it back together the same way. In such a case,
> one always wonders what ELSE wasn't put back together correctly.
>
> Maybe you are right and there will be no problem, but in the unlikely
> event that it DOES cause a head gasket failure say 2-3 years down the
> road I can tell you exactly what is going to happen. He will have to
> pay for the repair out of his own pocket because his engine rebuild will
> be out of warranty. He is well within his rights to expect that the job
> be done correctly from the start. If it were MY engine and I made this
> mistake myself, I would probably just switch the bolts but if I had
> hired a professional to do it I would damn well expect either a new head
> gasket or a signed agreement stating that the shop is liable for head
> gasket failure beyond the normal warranty period.
>
> I guess that makes you the only guy here qualified to render an opinion (
> yeah, right). Clue: some of the guys advising him to get the gasket
> replaced either are currently or have been employed as professional
> mechanics, or as shop owners.
>
> > All you skeptics should try this little test. Stand
> > beside a 4.0 l block and lower the cyl head on being carefull to pinch
> > a piece of loose skin, perhaps on your hammer. Now fully torque all
> > bolts to spec. Next, remove any two bolts and try to pull your hammer
> > out. See, no loss of tension.
>
> What the ----?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

Hi Del,
I don't think the rebuilder got the engine whole, remember Bill had
an injected 4.0 head on a forty over 258" block, he got back a ten, ten.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> The difference is, the OP hired a shop to have HIS engine rebuilt. It
> is not too much to expect that it be returned to him with all of the
> bolts in the correct place. The guy took this specific engine apart and
> he should be able to put it back together the same way. In such a case,
> one always wonders what ELSE wasn't put back together correctly.
>
> Maybe you are right and there will be no problem, but in the unlikely
> event that it DOES cause a head gasket failure say 2-3 years down the
> road I can tell you exactly what is going to happen. He will have to
> pay for the repair out of his own pocket because his engine rebuild will
> be out of warranty. He is well within his rights to expect that the job
> be done correctly from the start. If it were MY engine and I made this
> mistake myself, I would probably just switch the bolts but if I had
> hired a professional to do it I would damn well expect either a new head
> gasket or a signed agreement stating that the shop is liable for head
> gasket failure beyond the normal warranty period.
>
> I guess that makes you the only guy here qualified to render an opinion (
> yeah, right). Clue: some of the guys advising him to get the gasket
> replaced either are currently or have been employed as professional
> mechanics, or as shop owners.
>
> > All you skeptics should try this little test. Stand
> > beside a 4.0 l block and lower the cyl head on being carefull to pinch
> > a piece of loose skin, perhaps on your hammer. Now fully torque all
> > bolts to spec. Next, remove any two bolts and try to pull your hammer
> > out. See, no loss of tension.
>
> What the ----?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

Hi Del,
I don't think the rebuilder got the engine whole, remember Bill had
an injected 4.0 head on a forty over 258" block, he got back a ten, ten.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> The difference is, the OP hired a shop to have HIS engine rebuilt. It
> is not too much to expect that it be returned to him with all of the
> bolts in the correct place. The guy took this specific engine apart and
> he should be able to put it back together the same way. In such a case,
> one always wonders what ELSE wasn't put back together correctly.
>
> Maybe you are right and there will be no problem, but in the unlikely
> event that it DOES cause a head gasket failure say 2-3 years down the
> road I can tell you exactly what is going to happen. He will have to
> pay for the repair out of his own pocket because his engine rebuild will
> be out of warranty. He is well within his rights to expect that the job
> be done correctly from the start. If it were MY engine and I made this
> mistake myself, I would probably just switch the bolts but if I had
> hired a professional to do it I would damn well expect either a new head
> gasket or a signed agreement stating that the shop is liable for head
> gasket failure beyond the normal warranty period.
>
> I guess that makes you the only guy here qualified to render an opinion (
> yeah, right). Clue: some of the guys advising him to get the gasket
> replaced either are currently or have been employed as professional
> mechanics, or as shop owners.
>
> > All you skeptics should try this little test. Stand
> > beside a 4.0 l block and lower the cyl head on being carefull to pinch
> > a piece of loose skin, perhaps on your hammer. Now fully torque all
> > bolts to spec. Next, remove any two bolts and try to pull your hammer
> > out. See, no loss of tension.
>
> What the ----?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

Hi Del,
I don't think the rebuilder got the engine whole, remember Bill had
an injected 4.0 head on a forty over 258" block, he got back a ten, ten.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> The difference is, the OP hired a shop to have HIS engine rebuilt. It
> is not too much to expect that it be returned to him with all of the
> bolts in the correct place. The guy took this specific engine apart and
> he should be able to put it back together the same way. In such a case,
> one always wonders what ELSE wasn't put back together correctly.
>
> Maybe you are right and there will be no problem, but in the unlikely
> event that it DOES cause a head gasket failure say 2-3 years down the
> road I can tell you exactly what is going to happen. He will have to
> pay for the repair out of his own pocket because his engine rebuild will
> be out of warranty. He is well within his rights to expect that the job
> be done correctly from the start. If it were MY engine and I made this
> mistake myself, I would probably just switch the bolts but if I had
> hired a professional to do it I would damn well expect either a new head
> gasket or a signed agreement stating that the shop is liable for head
> gasket failure beyond the normal warranty period.
>
> I guess that makes you the only guy here qualified to render an opinion (
> yeah, right). Clue: some of the guys advising him to get the gasket
> replaced either are currently or have been employed as professional
> mechanics, or as shop owners.
>
> > All you skeptics should try this little test. Stand
> > beside a 4.0 l block and lower the cyl head on being carefull to pinch
> > a piece of loose skin, perhaps on your hammer. Now fully torque all
> > bolts to spec. Next, remove any two bolts and try to pull your hammer
> > out. See, no loss of tension.
>
> What the ----?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Steve G

I did rebuild engines C and no, not your and never had a head gasket failure
even though I know for certain I've done exactly what this guy is suggesting
numerous times. If you had enough experience in the trade you would have
lived through the evolution of head (and other parts) tightening procedures.
Did you know that not all manufacturers on all engines have always used this
3 step sequence you refer to? Do you know what torque to yield that's used
a lot today is? At one time some manufacturers had you tighten to a certain
torque then back them off and retighten them to next step. They didn't
mention replacing the gasket each time you backed it off. Gee, come to
think of it, how would you ever have gotten past that point if they did?
When you go through a tightening sequence it's like working a bubble under
wall paper to an edge. That's why torque sequence patterns almost always
start in the centre and work to the outside. Critical perhaps to do it
initially, but once it's done the gasket is fully seated and not necessary
to redo it. Do you know the basic principle behind the function of a
gasket? Have you ever even replaced one? The gasket serves to conform to
the unique microscopic uneveness, pits and holes and grooves, of the two
surfaces. Once it's been compressed it is filling all those small voids.
If you release the pressure from it then re-apply it without moving
anything, what's going to change? Nothing. As you speak about changing
temps and pressures during the operation cycle think about how that varies
the pressure on the head gasket. Do you think that the pressure changes
evenly accross the head in as precise a fashion from minus 30 degrees to
full operating temp of 210 with combustion temps at the edge of the chamber
as the initial tightening procedure produced? Not on your life. Would the
corner of the head where the 2 bolts are removed lift enough for the gasket
to seperate? If it does you'd better think of replacing that head instead
of the gasket. Any microscopic amount that it moved in decompression, if
any, would return to exactly the same shape and position as it was before
it was loosened.
But never mind all the theoretical crap that blows your arguments out of the
water. Post here again on the topic after you've uncrated a few new or
rebuild motors and read the manufacturer or rebuilders note sheet saying
that for certain aplication this or that head bolt must be changed. Not
once did I come across a sheet that said if a head bolt needed to be
switched return to manufacturer for re-assembly. Why wouldn't they also put
in a note that voided the warranty if the installer switched any head bolts?
I don't care if the gasket is $40 or $400, it's a waste. And it's okay for
someone else to waste an hour, as long as it's not yours, right? Another
one of those cases where you'll also tell him how long it will take too.
You sure you could remove the valve cover, all the rockers and pushrods, all
head bolts, clean all gasket surfaces, re-assemble including run through the
torque sequence in an hour? Is that based on comparison to your personal
best or just your average times for that job?
Why does the cost even come into this, the mere $40? Cost shouldn't
even factor into this. It's either right or it's not. Will the head gasket
only fail if it were a mere $40 risk? What about the use of torque to yield
head bolts at about $50 a set? May not be used on the old technology 4.0,
but we're talking in generalities about a general practice here. When your
mere $40 got up to a mere $100 with the valve cover gasket and bolts would
it then be okay to switch them without replacing the gasket? What if you
were doing a northstar 8 cyl and a bolt had to be switched from one bank to
the other? DOHC, timing chain and timing sequence, four cams to remove,
hours of work, all head bolts to replace, risk of thread damage to the
aluminum block every time the bolts are turned etc. Would you still do it
if it were a mere $250?
Tell us about your experience in the field and help us gain some confidence
in your advise.
Steve




"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:VCboc.57707$u_4.25328@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> C'mon Steve, think about it. Why does every single manufacturer have a 3
> step torque sequence in a specific pattern when installing heads? Do you
> really think these guys sit at their desks and dream up a "special" way of
> tightening head bolts just for ***** and giggles? Think about what a head
> gasket goes thru in its life cycle. Heating repeatedly from up to -40F up
to
> 220+F at least once a day, subjected to 150PSI and then 20" of vacuum
> several times a second, its exposed to hot oil, antifreeze and fire.
Engines
> with aluminum heads also experience different expansion rates between the
> block and heads due to dissimilar metal. Cast iron does to a lesser degree
> because of the vast difference in the shapes of the components. All this
> from a gasket that is less than 1/16" thick. Yeah, I'll chance removing
> bolts and possibly sacrificing the integrity of my measly head gasket for
a
> mere $40, not. I'm glad you don't rebuild my engines.
>
> Chris
>
>
> "Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in message
> news:m0boc.447694$oR5.165620@pd7tw3no...
> > Come on guys, think about this. You've got two heavey cast items bolted
> > together by what, a dozen bolts. You think if you loosen 2 that the
head
> is
> > going to twist so much that the spot where you've removed the bolts is
> going
> > to spring up and seperate the gasket? Yes, by all means warn the
mechanic
> > that if he does remove those bolts to watch out that the rebounding cyl
> head
> > doesn't hit him in the eye!
> > Give the poor shop guy a break. You will accomplish absolutely
> nothing
> > by making him replace that gasket except **** him off and waste
everyone's
> > time and money. Nowhere in any machinist/engine rebuilder's manuals is
it
> > going to give the assembler a layout for stud headbolts for all vehicles
> > that the engines could go into. If it was such a critical factor don't
> you
> > think the engine manufacturers would have come up with such a thing a
long
> > time ago. If this were the case long blocks would be delivered with the
> > heads not installed so that head bolts can be arranged as required for
the
> > particular vehicle it's going into. This happens all the time and is
done
> > all the time. Don't make him do it just because "you paid a lot for the
> > job". Make him do something if it's the right thing to do and this is
> > definately not it. I've been a licensed Interprovincial Journeyman
> mechanic
> > since 1972 and I will bet anything anyone here wants to cover that
> switching
> > those bolts will not be responsible for any premature gasket failure.
It
> > always used to frost me when armchair mechanics would come in and tell
me
> > how to do things, how long it should take and how much I should charge.
> Why
> > the hell weren't they in the business?
> > All you skeptics should try this little test. Stand beside a 4.0 l
> > block and lower the cyl head on being carefull to pinch a piece of loose
> > skin, perhaps on your hammer. Now fully torque all bolts to spec.
Next,
> > remove any two bolts and try to pull your hammer out. See, no loss of
> > tension.
> > Steve G.
> > "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
> > news:%3Ync.52725$u_4.9998@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > Dont lose faith Bill. Sometimes the projects that are the most trouble
> > turn
> > > out the best, if that makes any sense. The price for your rebuild is
> high
> > > compared to what we pay here, but it is probably in line with your
area.
> I
> > > don't know what the prices are like for engine shops there, so maybe
all
> > is
> > > fine. I will stick to my guns on the fact that, for what you are
paying
> > for
> > > the job, the guy should replace the head gasket, no questions asked.
> Maybe
> > > having worked in an engine shop for several years building very high
> > strung
> > > racing engines has made me more critical of what I would consider
subpar
> > > work. Like I said in my previous post, your gasket MAY never fail
> because
> > of
> > > changing those bolts, but think about it this way: do you really want
to
> > > have to worry about it out on a trail, or worry about it everytime you
> > start
> > > your Jeep? I would personally hate to get stranded somewhere in BFE
> > because
> > > of a failure that could have easily been prevented with a simple
gasket
> > > replacement.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > news:2gai14Fl3atU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > > > Well let me just say that you guys are giving me a big fat knot in
my
> > > > stomach. :-).
> > > >
> > > > As I mentioned before, I did a lot of leg work in this area to find
a
> > good
> > > > shop for R&R and machine and Chris thinks I paid way too much for
the
> > > > rebuild.
> > > >
> > > > Sounds like I just need to move the heck out of this state.
> > > >
> > > > Hopefully I have a jeep at the end of all this otherwise I'll push
it
> > into
> > > a
> > > > crater somewhere or blow the thing up.
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:40A00749.413F24BB@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > I have seen that head gasket separation too many times....
> > > > >
> > > > > I used to run a 1275 CC block with an 1100 cc head on it for the
> > > > > compression boost from the smaller dome with the same sized valves
> in
> > an
> > > > > old Mini and that had a mis matched gasket like Bill's does.
> > > > >
> > > > > I ran it fast sometimes, LOL, radar clocked at 132.4 mph and it
was
> a
> > > > > 'real' bugger to keep a head gasket in it. (loved to top out the
> 'hot
> > > > > rod' 1/4 mile Camaros and Vettes as I hit 4th at 104 mph @ 5000
rpm
> or
> > > > > so and waved as I went by)
> > > > >
> > > > > My buddy and I had a head gasket swap down to 30 minutes....
> > > > >
> > > > > The British Leyland dealer thought they had a bad batch of gaskets
> > until
> > > > > they called me in for a 'free' check of my 'built' engine that a
> Mini
> > > > > guru they know well made... It broke the first compression gauge,
> > > > > popped the pin off.
> > > > >
> > > > > The starter would barely turn it over and it was a 'thumper' for
> idle
> > > > > with a 2 1/2" straight pipe and glass pack.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think Bill wants to get that good at swapping head gaskets
> > > > > unless he had the benefits I had....
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > c wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just have to add my 2 cents here Bill. I hope to heck that
> > whatever
> > > > they
> > > > > > do to fix the bolt problem works out for you. Things like this
> make
> > me
> > > > glad
> > > > > > that I rebuild my own stuff. Anyway, for what you paid for the
> > > rebuild,
> > > > I
> > > > > > would insist that they change the head gasket. I don't know what
> > type
> > > of
> > > > > > gasket they used, but some of them form quite a bond to the head
> and
> > > > block
> > > > > > surfaces, so relaxing the bolt torque could cause the gasket
> layers
> > to
> > > > > > separate slightly. Then it becomes leak time. Like Mike said,
> since
> > > > there
> > > > > > were different types of bolts for the heads, the guy should have
> at
> > > > least
> > > > > > asked you where the special bracket bolt belonged, unless he
knew
> > for
> > > > sure
> > > > > > (which he didn't). The second thing here that would raise a red
> flag
> > > is
> > > > the
> > > > > > fact that the rebuilder didn't insist on changing the gasket
after
> > his
> > > > oops.
> > > > > > I rebuild engines in my own shop and would never risk that. Is
he
> > > going
> > > > to
> > > > > > do all the labor and reimburse you for your car rental, towing,
> etc.
> > > if
> > > > the
> > > > > > gasket fails? If not, I would insist he change the gasket. The
> > gasket
> > > is
> > > > > > probably about $40 at most, and and hour or two of his time to
do
> it
> > > > right.
> > > > > > IMHO, this sounds like poor quality work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chris
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:2ga6scFhuirU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > > > > > > Ha ha.... I'm getting to know you well Mike. After the last
> > post
> > > > that I
> > > > > > > knew you'd have that reply as I was thinking I'd have the same
> > > reply.
> > > > :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for the Devil's Advocate. I certainly hope my 'luck'
> > doesn't
> > > > fall
> > > > > > > into the 'bad' category from here out. I'm already shot to my
> > bones
> > > > with
> > > > > > > nerves on this one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Come on housing crash so I can afford my own garage :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:409FE117.73D0C0AD@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > I just like to play the devil's advocate some days Bill, I
> hope
> > it
> > > > works
> > > > > > > > out great for you.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Still, not knowing where the freaking bolts go sure doesn't
> > > instill
> > > > > > > > confidence in the statement 'I choose him because he has
done
> > this
> > > > mod
> > > > > > > > before and is fully familiar with it.'
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mike, the mechanic didn't put the thing together. The
> > > > > > rebuilder/machine
> > > > > > > > > shop did. They did the rebuild on the short block and put
> my
> > > > > > previously
> > > > > > > > > machined 4.0L head on it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There are two entities in this process. 1. the R&R guy,
> you
> > > can
> > > > call
> > > > > > > him a
> > > > > > > > > mechanic. 2. The Machine Shop/Rebuilder.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > #2 is the one who bolted the thing together and I choose
him
> > > > because
> > > > > > he
> > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > done this mod before and is fully familiar with it. This
> guy
> > > has
> > > > a
> > > > > > > history
> > > > > > > > > of jeeps including racing sand jeeps. He's the best I
could
> > > find
> > > > in
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > area for this application.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > He warranties the work for a year.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > He confirmed that it would be no problem for #1 (mechanic)
> to
> > > > change
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > bolts so if he's wrong he'll have to fix it if it comes
down
> > to
> > > > it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:409FD597.39970CF5@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > > > He already has a mis match on the head gasket Steve.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > He is putting a 4.0 head onto a 4.2 block. That makes
it
> a
> > > > > > 'twitchy'
> > > > > > > > > > installation to start.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 'I' would not take a chance on blowing a new engine for
> > > > something
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > dumb.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Maybe that is just me, but.... If I forked out in the
> order
> > > of
> > > > $2K
> > > > > > > plus
> > > > > > > > > > I most certainly would not take a chance on a head
gasket
> > that
> > > > > > 'might
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > might not' be compromised.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have assembled and have seen assembled a whole pile of
> > > engines
> > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > > > the years and most people, let alone 'mechanics' stop
and
> > > think
> > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > they find 2 head bolts that are nutted studs instead of
> > bolts.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It seem 'logical' that these 'strange' bolt like things
> > should
> > > > go
> > > > > > > > > > somewhere special eh?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > One is for the bracket, the other goes on the back
drivers
> > > side
> > > > > > corner
> > > > > > > > > > for the ground strap to bolt onto.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In all due fairness poor Bill's 'mechanic' is kinda on
the
> > > brain
> > > > > > dead
> > > > > > > > > > side to just put it together wrong without checking
> wouldn't
> > > you
> > > > > > say?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Steve G wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I've done it hundreds of times and there won't be a
> > problem
> > > > > > > switching
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > bolts and just re-torquing those two. In all
probability
> > > it's
> > > > one
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > outside bolts which are the last to be torqued in the
> > > sequence
> > > > > > > anyways.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > In all fairness to the mechanic Mike, these guys have
no
> > way
> > > > of
> > > > > > > knowing
> > > > > > > > > > > which bolt is supposed to have the stud on it and
> > different
> > > > > > > > > installations
> > > > > > > > > > > sometimes have different positions for that bolt. May
> not
> > > be
> > > > the
> > > > > > > case
> > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > all 4.0, although I doubt that they all come the same
> way
> > > in
> > > > all
> > > > > > > > > > > applications. I know for a fact lots of Pontiac,
Buick
> > and
> > > > Olds
> > > > > > > v-8's
> > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > have the head bolts with the stud on it in different
> > > locations
> > > > > > > depending
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > what model vehicle it was going in and the assembler
> would
> > > > have no
> > > > > > > way
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > knowing.
> > > > > > > > > > > Steve G.
> > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:409FC445.928E9186@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come
> > from....
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have
any
> > > luck
> > > > at
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt
> > engine
> > > > with
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > already 'blown' head gasket.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Head gaskets only compress once.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to
tail
> > in
> > > > '00
> > > > > > > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Just had my engine rebuilt. New cam, new crank
> 10/10,
> > > new
> > > > > > > bearings,
> > > > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > > > > pistons and rings, flywheel balanced and all
married
> > up
> > > to
> > > > my
> > > > > > > 4.0L
> > > > > > > > > head
> > > > > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the door.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Now the R&R guy has noticed one of the head bolts
is
> > out
> > > > of
> > > > > > > position
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > power steering bracket so he needs to switch them.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there any problem switching two head bolts
which
> > > reside
> > > > > > side
> > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > side
> > > > > > > > > > > > > without going through the entire torquing sequence
> > > again?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > That is, can these two bolts be taking out,
> switched,
> > > put
> > > > back
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > torqued down without any problems?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > R&R guy says no problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Steve G

I did rebuild engines C and no, not your and never had a head gasket failure
even though I know for certain I've done exactly what this guy is suggesting
numerous times. If you had enough experience in the trade you would have
lived through the evolution of head (and other parts) tightening procedures.
Did you know that not all manufacturers on all engines have always used this
3 step sequence you refer to? Do you know what torque to yield that's used
a lot today is? At one time some manufacturers had you tighten to a certain
torque then back them off and retighten them to next step. They didn't
mention replacing the gasket each time you backed it off. Gee, come to
think of it, how would you ever have gotten past that point if they did?
When you go through a tightening sequence it's like working a bubble under
wall paper to an edge. That's why torque sequence patterns almost always
start in the centre and work to the outside. Critical perhaps to do it
initially, but once it's done the gasket is fully seated and not necessary
to redo it. Do you know the basic principle behind the function of a
gasket? Have you ever even replaced one? The gasket serves to conform to
the unique microscopic uneveness, pits and holes and grooves, of the two
surfaces. Once it's been compressed it is filling all those small voids.
If you release the pressure from it then re-apply it without moving
anything, what's going to change? Nothing. As you speak about changing
temps and pressures during the operation cycle think about how that varies
the pressure on the head gasket. Do you think that the pressure changes
evenly accross the head in as precise a fashion from minus 30 degrees to
full operating temp of 210 with combustion temps at the edge of the chamber
as the initial tightening procedure produced? Not on your life. Would the
corner of the head where the 2 bolts are removed lift enough for the gasket
to seperate? If it does you'd better think of replacing that head instead
of the gasket. Any microscopic amount that it moved in decompression, if
any, would return to exactly the same shape and position as it was before
it was loosened.
But never mind all the theoretical crap that blows your arguments out of the
water. Post here again on the topic after you've uncrated a few new or
rebuild motors and read the manufacturer or rebuilders note sheet saying
that for certain aplication this or that head bolt must be changed. Not
once did I come across a sheet that said if a head bolt needed to be
switched return to manufacturer for re-assembly. Why wouldn't they also put
in a note that voided the warranty if the installer switched any head bolts?
I don't care if the gasket is $40 or $400, it's a waste. And it's okay for
someone else to waste an hour, as long as it's not yours, right? Another
one of those cases where you'll also tell him how long it will take too.
You sure you could remove the valve cover, all the rockers and pushrods, all
head bolts, clean all gasket surfaces, re-assemble including run through the
torque sequence in an hour? Is that based on comparison to your personal
best or just your average times for that job?
Why does the cost even come into this, the mere $40? Cost shouldn't
even factor into this. It's either right or it's not. Will the head gasket
only fail if it were a mere $40 risk? What about the use of torque to yield
head bolts at about $50 a set? May not be used on the old technology 4.0,
but we're talking in generalities about a general practice here. When your
mere $40 got up to a mere $100 with the valve cover gasket and bolts would
it then be okay to switch them without replacing the gasket? What if you
were doing a northstar 8 cyl and a bolt had to be switched from one bank to
the other? DOHC, timing chain and timing sequence, four cams to remove,
hours of work, all head bolts to replace, risk of thread damage to the
aluminum block every time the bolts are turned etc. Would you still do it
if it were a mere $250?
Tell us about your experience in the field and help us gain some confidence
in your advise.
Steve




"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:VCboc.57707$u_4.25328@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> C'mon Steve, think about it. Why does every single manufacturer have a 3
> step torque sequence in a specific pattern when installing heads? Do you
> really think these guys sit at their desks and dream up a "special" way of
> tightening head bolts just for ***** and giggles? Think about what a head
> gasket goes thru in its life cycle. Heating repeatedly from up to -40F up
to
> 220+F at least once a day, subjected to 150PSI and then 20" of vacuum
> several times a second, its exposed to hot oil, antifreeze and fire.
Engines
> with aluminum heads also experience different expansion rates between the
> block and heads due to dissimilar metal. Cast iron does to a lesser degree
> because of the vast difference in the shapes of the components. All this
> from a gasket that is less than 1/16" thick. Yeah, I'll chance removing
> bolts and possibly sacrificing the integrity of my measly head gasket for
a
> mere $40, not. I'm glad you don't rebuild my engines.
>
> Chris
>
>
> "Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in message
> news:m0boc.447694$oR5.165620@pd7tw3no...
> > Come on guys, think about this. You've got two heavey cast items bolted
> > together by what, a dozen bolts. You think if you loosen 2 that the
head
> is
> > going to twist so much that the spot where you've removed the bolts is
> going
> > to spring up and seperate the gasket? Yes, by all means warn the
mechanic
> > that if he does remove those bolts to watch out that the rebounding cyl
> head
> > doesn't hit him in the eye!
> > Give the poor shop guy a break. You will accomplish absolutely
> nothing
> > by making him replace that gasket except **** him off and waste
everyone's
> > time and money. Nowhere in any machinist/engine rebuilder's manuals is
it
> > going to give the assembler a layout for stud headbolts for all vehicles
> > that the engines could go into. If it was such a critical factor don't
> you
> > think the engine manufacturers would have come up with such a thing a
long
> > time ago. If this were the case long blocks would be delivered with the
> > heads not installed so that head bolts can be arranged as required for
the
> > particular vehicle it's going into. This happens all the time and is
done
> > all the time. Don't make him do it just because "you paid a lot for the
> > job". Make him do something if it's the right thing to do and this is
> > definately not it. I've been a licensed Interprovincial Journeyman
> mechanic
> > since 1972 and I will bet anything anyone here wants to cover that
> switching
> > those bolts will not be responsible for any premature gasket failure.
It
> > always used to frost me when armchair mechanics would come in and tell
me
> > how to do things, how long it should take and how much I should charge.
> Why
> > the hell weren't they in the business?
> > All you skeptics should try this little test. Stand beside a 4.0 l
> > block and lower the cyl head on being carefull to pinch a piece of loose
> > skin, perhaps on your hammer. Now fully torque all bolts to spec.
Next,
> > remove any two bolts and try to pull your hammer out. See, no loss of
> > tension.
> > Steve G.
> > "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
> > news:%3Ync.52725$u_4.9998@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > Dont lose faith Bill. Sometimes the projects that are the most trouble
> > turn
> > > out the best, if that makes any sense. The price for your rebuild is
> high
> > > compared to what we pay here, but it is probably in line with your
area.
> I
> > > don't know what the prices are like for engine shops there, so maybe
all
> > is
> > > fine. I will stick to my guns on the fact that, for what you are
paying
> > for
> > > the job, the guy should replace the head gasket, no questions asked.
> Maybe
> > > having worked in an engine shop for several years building very high
> > strung
> > > racing engines has made me more critical of what I would consider
subpar
> > > work. Like I said in my previous post, your gasket MAY never fail
> because
> > of
> > > changing those bolts, but think about it this way: do you really want
to
> > > have to worry about it out on a trail, or worry about it everytime you
> > start
> > > your Jeep? I would personally hate to get stranded somewhere in BFE
> > because
> > > of a failure that could have easily been prevented with a simple
gasket
> > > replacement.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > news:2gai14Fl3atU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > > > Well let me just say that you guys are giving me a big fat knot in
my
> > > > stomach. :-).
> > > >
> > > > As I mentioned before, I did a lot of leg work in this area to find
a
> > good
> > > > shop for R&R and machine and Chris thinks I paid way too much for
the
> > > > rebuild.
> > > >
> > > > Sounds like I just need to move the heck out of this state.
> > > >
> > > > Hopefully I have a jeep at the end of all this otherwise I'll push
it
> > into
> > > a
> > > > crater somewhere or blow the thing up.
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:40A00749.413F24BB@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > I have seen that head gasket separation too many times....
> > > > >
> > > > > I used to run a 1275 CC block with an 1100 cc head on it for the
> > > > > compression boost from the smaller dome with the same sized valves
> in
> > an
> > > > > old Mini and that had a mis matched gasket like Bill's does.
> > > > >
> > > > > I ran it fast sometimes, LOL, radar clocked at 132.4 mph and it
was
> a
> > > > > 'real' bugger to keep a head gasket in it. (loved to top out the
> 'hot
> > > > > rod' 1/4 mile Camaros and Vettes as I hit 4th at 104 mph @ 5000
rpm
> or
> > > > > so and waved as I went by)
> > > > >
> > > > > My buddy and I had a head gasket swap down to 30 minutes....
> > > > >
> > > > > The British Leyland dealer thought they had a bad batch of gaskets
> > until
> > > > > they called me in for a 'free' check of my 'built' engine that a
> Mini
> > > > > guru they know well made... It broke the first compression gauge,
> > > > > popped the pin off.
> > > > >
> > > > > The starter would barely turn it over and it was a 'thumper' for
> idle
> > > > > with a 2 1/2" straight pipe and glass pack.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think Bill wants to get that good at swapping head gaskets
> > > > > unless he had the benefits I had....
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > c wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just have to add my 2 cents here Bill. I hope to heck that
> > whatever
> > > > they
> > > > > > do to fix the bolt problem works out for you. Things like this
> make
> > me
> > > > glad
> > > > > > that I rebuild my own stuff. Anyway, for what you paid for the
> > > rebuild,
> > > > I
> > > > > > would insist that they change the head gasket. I don't know what
> > type
> > > of
> > > > > > gasket they used, but some of them form quite a bond to the head
> and
> > > > block
> > > > > > surfaces, so relaxing the bolt torque could cause the gasket
> layers
> > to
> > > > > > separate slightly. Then it becomes leak time. Like Mike said,
> since
> > > > there
> > > > > > were different types of bolts for the heads, the guy should have
> at
> > > > least
> > > > > > asked you where the special bracket bolt belonged, unless he
knew
> > for
> > > > sure
> > > > > > (which he didn't). The second thing here that would raise a red
> flag
> > > is
> > > > the
> > > > > > fact that the rebuilder didn't insist on changing the gasket
after
> > his
> > > > oops.
> > > > > > I rebuild engines in my own shop and would never risk that. Is
he
> > > going
> > > > to
> > > > > > do all the labor and reimburse you for your car rental, towing,
> etc.
> > > if
> > > > the
> > > > > > gasket fails? If not, I would insist he change the gasket. The
> > gasket
> > > is
> > > > > > probably about $40 at most, and and hour or two of his time to
do
> it
> > > > right.
> > > > > > IMHO, this sounds like poor quality work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chris
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:2ga6scFhuirU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > > > > > > Ha ha.... I'm getting to know you well Mike. After the last
> > post
> > > > that I
> > > > > > > knew you'd have that reply as I was thinking I'd have the same
> > > reply.
> > > > :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for the Devil's Advocate. I certainly hope my 'luck'
> > doesn't
> > > > fall
> > > > > > > into the 'bad' category from here out. I'm already shot to my
> > bones
> > > > with
> > > > > > > nerves on this one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Come on housing crash so I can afford my own garage :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:409FE117.73D0C0AD@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > I just like to play the devil's advocate some days Bill, I
> hope
> > it
> > > > works
> > > > > > > > out great for you.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Still, not knowing where the freaking bolts go sure doesn't
> > > instill
> > > > > > > > confidence in the statement 'I choose him because he has
done
> > this
> > > > mod
> > > > > > > > before and is fully familiar with it.'
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mike, the mechanic didn't put the thing together. The
> > > > > > rebuilder/machine
> > > > > > > > > shop did. They did the rebuild on the short block and put
> my
> > > > > > previously
> > > > > > > > > machined 4.0L head on it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There are two entities in this process. 1. the R&R guy,
> you
> > > can
> > > > call
> > > > > > > him a
> > > > > > > > > mechanic. 2. The Machine Shop/Rebuilder.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > #2 is the one who bolted the thing together and I choose
him
> > > > because
> > > > > > he
> > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > done this mod before and is fully familiar with it. This
> guy
> > > has
> > > > a
> > > > > > > history
> > > > > > > > > of jeeps including racing sand jeeps. He's the best I
could
> > > find
> > > > in
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > area for this application.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > He warranties the work for a year.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > He confirmed that it would be no problem for #1 (mechanic)
> to
> > > > change
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > bolts so if he's wrong he'll have to fix it if it comes
down
> > to
> > > > it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:409FD597.39970CF5@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > > > He already has a mis match on the head gasket Steve.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > He is putting a 4.0 head onto a 4.2 block. That makes
it
> a
> > > > > > 'twitchy'
> > > > > > > > > > installation to start.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 'I' would not take a chance on blowing a new engine for
> > > > something
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > dumb.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Maybe that is just me, but.... If I forked out in the
> order
> > > of
> > > > $2K
> > > > > > > plus
> > > > > > > > > > I most certainly would not take a chance on a head
gasket
> > that
> > > > > > 'might
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > might not' be compromised.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have assembled and have seen assembled a whole pile of
> > > engines
> > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > > > the years and most people, let alone 'mechanics' stop
and
> > > think
> > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > they find 2 head bolts that are nutted studs instead of
> > bolts.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It seem 'logical' that these 'strange' bolt like things
> > should
> > > > go
> > > > > > > > > > somewhere special eh?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > One is for the bracket, the other goes on the back
drivers
> > > side
> > > > > > corner
> > > > > > > > > > for the ground strap to bolt onto.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In all due fairness poor Bill's 'mechanic' is kinda on
the
> > > brain
> > > > > > dead
> > > > > > > > > > side to just put it together wrong without checking
> wouldn't
> > > you
> > > > > > say?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Steve G wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I've done it hundreds of times and there won't be a
> > problem
> > > > > > > switching
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > bolts and just re-torquing those two. In all
probability
> > > it's
> > > > one
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > outside bolts which are the last to be torqued in the
> > > sequence
> > > > > > > anyways.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > In all fairness to the mechanic Mike, these guys have
no
> > way
> > > > of
> > > > > > > knowing
> > > > > > > > > > > which bolt is supposed to have the stud on it and
> > different
> > > > > > > > > installations
> > > > > > > > > > > sometimes have different positions for that bolt. May
> not
> > > be
> > > > the
> > > > > > > case
> > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > all 4.0, although I doubt that they all come the same
> way
> > > in
> > > > all
> > > > > > > > > > > applications. I know for a fact lots of Pontiac,
Buick
> > and
> > > > Olds
> > > > > > > v-8's
> > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > have the head bolts with the stud on it in different
> > > locations
> > > > > > > depending
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > what model vehicle it was going in and the assembler
> would
> > > > have no
> > > > > > > way
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > knowing.
> > > > > > > > > > > Steve G.
> > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:409FC445.928E9186@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come
> > from....
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have
any
> > > luck
> > > > at
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt
> > engine
> > > > with
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > already 'blown' head gasket.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Head gaskets only compress once.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to
tail
> > in
> > > > '00
> > > > > > > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Just had my engine rebuilt. New cam, new crank
> 10/10,
> > > new
> > > > > > > bearings,
> > > > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > > > > pistons and rings, flywheel balanced and all
married
> > up
> > > to
> > > > my
> > > > > > > 4.0L
> > > > > > > > > head
> > > > > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the door.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Now the R&R guy has noticed one of the head bolts
is
> > out
> > > > of
> > > > > > > position
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > power steering bracket so he needs to switch them.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there any problem switching two head bolts
which
> > > reside
> > > > > > side
> > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > side
> > > > > > > > > > > > > without going through the entire torquing sequence
> > > again?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > That is, can these two bolts be taking out,
> switched,
> > > put
> > > > back
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > torqued down without any problems?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > R&R guy says no problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Steve G

I did rebuild engines C and no, not your and never had a head gasket failure
even though I know for certain I've done exactly what this guy is suggesting
numerous times. If you had enough experience in the trade you would have
lived through the evolution of head (and other parts) tightening procedures.
Did you know that not all manufacturers on all engines have always used this
3 step sequence you refer to? Do you know what torque to yield that's used
a lot today is? At one time some manufacturers had you tighten to a certain
torque then back them off and retighten them to next step. They didn't
mention replacing the gasket each time you backed it off. Gee, come to
think of it, how would you ever have gotten past that point if they did?
When you go through a tightening sequence it's like working a bubble under
wall paper to an edge. That's why torque sequence patterns almost always
start in the centre and work to the outside. Critical perhaps to do it
initially, but once it's done the gasket is fully seated and not necessary
to redo it. Do you know the basic principle behind the function of a
gasket? Have you ever even replaced one? The gasket serves to conform to
the unique microscopic uneveness, pits and holes and grooves, of the two
surfaces. Once it's been compressed it is filling all those small voids.
If you release the pressure from it then re-apply it without moving
anything, what's going to change? Nothing. As you speak about changing
temps and pressures during the operation cycle think about how that varies
the pressure on the head gasket. Do you think that the pressure changes
evenly accross the head in as precise a fashion from minus 30 degrees to
full operating temp of 210 with combustion temps at the edge of the chamber
as the initial tightening procedure produced? Not on your life. Would the
corner of the head where the 2 bolts are removed lift enough for the gasket
to seperate? If it does you'd better think of replacing that head instead
of the gasket. Any microscopic amount that it moved in decompression, if
any, would return to exactly the same shape and position as it was before
it was loosened.
But never mind all the theoretical crap that blows your arguments out of the
water. Post here again on the topic after you've uncrated a few new or
rebuild motors and read the manufacturer or rebuilders note sheet saying
that for certain aplication this or that head bolt must be changed. Not
once did I come across a sheet that said if a head bolt needed to be
switched return to manufacturer for re-assembly. Why wouldn't they also put
in a note that voided the warranty if the installer switched any head bolts?
I don't care if the gasket is $40 or $400, it's a waste. And it's okay for
someone else to waste an hour, as long as it's not yours, right? Another
one of those cases where you'll also tell him how long it will take too.
You sure you could remove the valve cover, all the rockers and pushrods, all
head bolts, clean all gasket surfaces, re-assemble including run through the
torque sequence in an hour? Is that based on comparison to your personal
best or just your average times for that job?
Why does the cost even come into this, the mere $40? Cost shouldn't
even factor into this. It's either right or it's not. Will the head gasket
only fail if it were a mere $40 risk? What about the use of torque to yield
head bolts at about $50 a set? May not be used on the old technology 4.0,
but we're talking in generalities about a general practice here. When your
mere $40 got up to a mere $100 with the valve cover gasket and bolts would
it then be okay to switch them without replacing the gasket? What if you
were doing a northstar 8 cyl and a bolt had to be switched from one bank to
the other? DOHC, timing chain and timing sequence, four cams to remove,
hours of work, all head bolts to replace, risk of thread damage to the
aluminum block every time the bolts are turned etc. Would you still do it
if it were a mere $250?
Tell us about your experience in the field and help us gain some confidence
in your advise.
Steve




"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:VCboc.57707$u_4.25328@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> C'mon Steve, think about it. Why does every single manufacturer have a 3
> step torque sequence in a specific pattern when installing heads? Do you
> really think these guys sit at their desks and dream up a "special" way of
> tightening head bolts just for ***** and giggles? Think about what a head
> gasket goes thru in its life cycle. Heating repeatedly from up to -40F up
to
> 220+F at least once a day, subjected to 150PSI and then 20" of vacuum
> several times a second, its exposed to hot oil, antifreeze and fire.
Engines
> with aluminum heads also experience different expansion rates between the
> block and heads due to dissimilar metal. Cast iron does to a lesser degree
> because of the vast difference in the shapes of the components. All this
> from a gasket that is less than 1/16" thick. Yeah, I'll chance removing
> bolts and possibly sacrificing the integrity of my measly head gasket for
a
> mere $40, not. I'm glad you don't rebuild my engines.
>
> Chris
>
>
> "Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in message
> news:m0boc.447694$oR5.165620@pd7tw3no...
> > Come on guys, think about this. You've got two heavey cast items bolted
> > together by what, a dozen bolts. You think if you loosen 2 that the
head
> is
> > going to twist so much that the spot where you've removed the bolts is
> going
> > to spring up and seperate the gasket? Yes, by all means warn the
mechanic
> > that if he does remove those bolts to watch out that the rebounding cyl
> head
> > doesn't hit him in the eye!
> > Give the poor shop guy a break. You will accomplish absolutely
> nothing
> > by making him replace that gasket except **** him off and waste
everyone's
> > time and money. Nowhere in any machinist/engine rebuilder's manuals is
it
> > going to give the assembler a layout for stud headbolts for all vehicles
> > that the engines could go into. If it was such a critical factor don't
> you
> > think the engine manufacturers would have come up with such a thing a
long
> > time ago. If this were the case long blocks would be delivered with the
> > heads not installed so that head bolts can be arranged as required for
the
> > particular vehicle it's going into. This happens all the time and is
done
> > all the time. Don't make him do it just because "you paid a lot for the
> > job". Make him do something if it's the right thing to do and this is
> > definately not it. I've been a licensed Interprovincial Journeyman
> mechanic
> > since 1972 and I will bet anything anyone here wants to cover that
> switching
> > those bolts will not be responsible for any premature gasket failure.
It
> > always used to frost me when armchair mechanics would come in and tell
me
> > how to do things, how long it should take and how much I should charge.
> Why
> > the hell weren't they in the business?
> > All you skeptics should try this little test. Stand beside a 4.0 l
> > block and lower the cyl head on being carefull to pinch a piece of loose
> > skin, perhaps on your hammer. Now fully torque all bolts to spec.
Next,
> > remove any two bolts and try to pull your hammer out. See, no loss of
> > tension.
> > Steve G.
> > "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
> > news:%3Ync.52725$u_4.9998@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > Dont lose faith Bill. Sometimes the projects that are the most trouble
> > turn
> > > out the best, if that makes any sense. The price for your rebuild is
> high
> > > compared to what we pay here, but it is probably in line with your
area.
> I
> > > don't know what the prices are like for engine shops there, so maybe
all
> > is
> > > fine. I will stick to my guns on the fact that, for what you are
paying
> > for
> > > the job, the guy should replace the head gasket, no questions asked.
> Maybe
> > > having worked in an engine shop for several years building very high
> > strung
> > > racing engines has made me more critical of what I would consider
subpar
> > > work. Like I said in my previous post, your gasket MAY never fail
> because
> > of
> > > changing those bolts, but think about it this way: do you really want
to
> > > have to worry about it out on a trail, or worry about it everytime you
> > start
> > > your Jeep? I would personally hate to get stranded somewhere in BFE
> > because
> > > of a failure that could have easily been prevented with a simple
gasket
> > > replacement.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > news:2gai14Fl3atU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > > > Well let me just say that you guys are giving me a big fat knot in
my
> > > > stomach. :-).
> > > >
> > > > As I mentioned before, I did a lot of leg work in this area to find
a
> > good
> > > > shop for R&R and machine and Chris thinks I paid way too much for
the
> > > > rebuild.
> > > >
> > > > Sounds like I just need to move the heck out of this state.
> > > >
> > > > Hopefully I have a jeep at the end of all this otherwise I'll push
it
> > into
> > > a
> > > > crater somewhere or blow the thing up.
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:40A00749.413F24BB@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > I have seen that head gasket separation too many times....
> > > > >
> > > > > I used to run a 1275 CC block with an 1100 cc head on it for the
> > > > > compression boost from the smaller dome with the same sized valves
> in
> > an
> > > > > old Mini and that had a mis matched gasket like Bill's does.
> > > > >
> > > > > I ran it fast sometimes, LOL, radar clocked at 132.4 mph and it
was
> a
> > > > > 'real' bugger to keep a head gasket in it. (loved to top out the
> 'hot
> > > > > rod' 1/4 mile Camaros and Vettes as I hit 4th at 104 mph @ 5000
rpm
> or
> > > > > so and waved as I went by)
> > > > >
> > > > > My buddy and I had a head gasket swap down to 30 minutes....
> > > > >
> > > > > The British Leyland dealer thought they had a bad batch of gaskets
> > until
> > > > > they called me in for a 'free' check of my 'built' engine that a
> Mini
> > > > > guru they know well made... It broke the first compression gauge,
> > > > > popped the pin off.
> > > > >
> > > > > The starter would barely turn it over and it was a 'thumper' for
> idle
> > > > > with a 2 1/2" straight pipe and glass pack.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think Bill wants to get that good at swapping head gaskets
> > > > > unless he had the benefits I had....
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > c wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just have to add my 2 cents here Bill. I hope to heck that
> > whatever
> > > > they
> > > > > > do to fix the bolt problem works out for you. Things like this
> make
> > me
> > > > glad
> > > > > > that I rebuild my own stuff. Anyway, for what you paid for the
> > > rebuild,
> > > > I
> > > > > > would insist that they change the head gasket. I don't know what
> > type
> > > of
> > > > > > gasket they used, but some of them form quite a bond to the head
> and
> > > > block
> > > > > > surfaces, so relaxing the bolt torque could cause the gasket
> layers
> > to
> > > > > > separate slightly. Then it becomes leak time. Like Mike said,
> since
> > > > there
> > > > > > were different types of bolts for the heads, the guy should have
> at
> > > > least
> > > > > > asked you where the special bracket bolt belonged, unless he
knew
> > for
> > > > sure
> > > > > > (which he didn't). The second thing here that would raise a red
> flag
> > > is
> > > > the
> > > > > > fact that the rebuilder didn't insist on changing the gasket
after
> > his
> > > > oops.
> > > > > > I rebuild engines in my own shop and would never risk that. Is
he
> > > going
> > > > to
> > > > > > do all the labor and reimburse you for your car rental, towing,
> etc.
> > > if
> > > > the
> > > > > > gasket fails? If not, I would insist he change the gasket. The
> > gasket
> > > is
> > > > > > probably about $40 at most, and and hour or two of his time to
do
> it
> > > > right.
> > > > > > IMHO, this sounds like poor quality work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chris
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:2ga6scFhuirU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > > > > > > Ha ha.... I'm getting to know you well Mike. After the last
> > post
> > > > that I
> > > > > > > knew you'd have that reply as I was thinking I'd have the same
> > > reply.
> > > > :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for the Devil's Advocate. I certainly hope my 'luck'
> > doesn't
> > > > fall
> > > > > > > into the 'bad' category from here out. I'm already shot to my
> > bones
> > > > with
> > > > > > > nerves on this one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Come on housing crash so I can afford my own garage :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:409FE117.73D0C0AD@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > I just like to play the devil's advocate some days Bill, I
> hope
> > it
> > > > works
> > > > > > > > out great for you.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Still, not knowing where the freaking bolts go sure doesn't
> > > instill
> > > > > > > > confidence in the statement 'I choose him because he has
done
> > this
> > > > mod
> > > > > > > > before and is fully familiar with it.'
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mike, the mechanic didn't put the thing together. The
> > > > > > rebuilder/machine
> > > > > > > > > shop did. They did the rebuild on the short block and put
> my
> > > > > > previously
> > > > > > > > > machined 4.0L head on it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There are two entities in this process. 1. the R&R guy,
> you
> > > can
> > > > call
> > > > > > > him a
> > > > > > > > > mechanic. 2. The Machine Shop/Rebuilder.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > #2 is the one who bolted the thing together and I choose
him
> > > > because
> > > > > > he
> > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > done this mod before and is fully familiar with it. This
> guy
> > > has
> > > > a
> > > > > > > history
> > > > > > > > > of jeeps including racing sand jeeps. He's the best I
could
> > > find
> > > > in
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > area for this application.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > He warranties the work for a year.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > He confirmed that it would be no problem for #1 (mechanic)
> to
> > > > change
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > bolts so if he's wrong he'll have to fix it if it comes
down
> > to
> > > > it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:409FD597.39970CF5@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > > > He already has a mis match on the head gasket Steve.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > He is putting a 4.0 head onto a 4.2 block. That makes
it
> a
> > > > > > 'twitchy'
> > > > > > > > > > installation to start.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 'I' would not take a chance on blowing a new engine for
> > > > something
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > dumb.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Maybe that is just me, but.... If I forked out in the
> order
> > > of
> > > > $2K
> > > > > > > plus
> > > > > > > > > > I most certainly would not take a chance on a head
gasket
> > that
> > > > > > 'might
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > might not' be compromised.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have assembled and have seen assembled a whole pile of
> > > engines
> > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > > > the years and most people, let alone 'mechanics' stop
and
> > > think
> > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > they find 2 head bolts that are nutted studs instead of
> > bolts.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It seem 'logical' that these 'strange' bolt like things
> > should
> > > > go
> > > > > > > > > > somewhere special eh?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > One is for the bracket, the other goes on the back
drivers
> > > side
> > > > > > corner
> > > > > > > > > > for the ground strap to bolt onto.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In all due fairness poor Bill's 'mechanic' is kinda on
the
> > > brain
> > > > > > dead
> > > > > > > > > > side to just put it together wrong without checking
> wouldn't
> > > you
> > > > > > say?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Steve G wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I've done it hundreds of times and there won't be a
> > problem
> > > > > > > switching
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > bolts and just re-torquing those two. In all
probability
> > > it's
> > > > one
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > outside bolts which are the last to be torqued in the
> > > sequence
> > > > > > > anyways.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > In all fairness to the mechanic Mike, these guys have
no
> > way
> > > > of
> > > > > > > knowing
> > > > > > > > > > > which bolt is supposed to have the stud on it and
> > different
> > > > > > > > > installations
> > > > > > > > > > > sometimes have different positions for that bolt. May
> not
> > > be
> > > > the
> > > > > > > case
> > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > all 4.0, although I doubt that they all come the same
> way
> > > in
> > > > all
> > > > > > > > > > > applications. I know for a fact lots of Pontiac,
Buick
> > and
> > > > Olds
> > > > > > > v-8's
> > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > have the head bolts with the stud on it in different
> > > locations
> > > > > > > depending
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > what model vehicle it was going in and the assembler
> would
> > > > have no
> > > > > > > way
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > knowing.
> > > > > > > > > > > Steve G.
> > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:409FC445.928E9186@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come
> > from....
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have
any
> > > luck
> > > > at
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt
> > engine
> > > > with
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > already 'blown' head gasket.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Head gaskets only compress once.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to
tail
> > in
> > > > '00
> > > > > > > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Just had my engine rebuilt. New cam, new crank
> 10/10,
> > > new
> > > > > > > bearings,
> > > > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > > > > pistons and rings, flywheel balanced and all
married
> > up
> > > to
> > > > my
> > > > > > > 4.0L
> > > > > > > > > head
> > > > > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the door.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Now the R&R guy has noticed one of the head bolts
is
> > out
> > > > of
> > > > > > > position
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > power steering bracket so he needs to switch them.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there any problem switching two head bolts
which
> > > reside
> > > > > > side
> > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > side
> > > > > > > > > > > > > without going through the entire torquing sequence
> > > again?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > That is, can these two bolts be taking out,
> switched,
> > > put
> > > > back
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > torqued down without any problems?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > R&R guy says no problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Steve G

I did rebuild engines C and no, not your and never had a head gasket failure
even though I know for certain I've done exactly what this guy is suggesting
numerous times. If you had enough experience in the trade you would have
lived through the evolution of head (and other parts) tightening procedures.
Did you know that not all manufacturers on all engines have always used this
3 step sequence you refer to? Do you know what torque to yield that's used
a lot today is? At one time some manufacturers had you tighten to a certain
torque then back them off and retighten them to next step. They didn't
mention replacing the gasket each time you backed it off. Gee, come to
think of it, how would you ever have gotten past that point if they did?
When you go through a tightening sequence it's like working a bubble under
wall paper to an edge. That's why torque sequence patterns almost always
start in the centre and work to the outside. Critical perhaps to do it
initially, but once it's done the gasket is fully seated and not necessary
to redo it. Do you know the basic principle behind the function of a
gasket? Have you ever even replaced one? The gasket serves to conform to
the unique microscopic uneveness, pits and holes and grooves, of the two
surfaces. Once it's been compressed it is filling all those small voids.
If you release the pressure from it then re-apply it without moving
anything, what's going to change? Nothing. As you speak about changing
temps and pressures during the operation cycle think about how that varies
the pressure on the head gasket. Do you think that the pressure changes
evenly accross the head in as precise a fashion from minus 30 degrees to
full operating temp of 210 with combustion temps at the edge of the chamber
as the initial tightening procedure produced? Not on your life. Would the
corner of the head where the 2 bolts are removed lift enough for the gasket
to seperate? If it does you'd better think of replacing that head instead
of the gasket. Any microscopic amount that it moved in decompression, if
any, would return to exactly the same shape and position as it was before
it was loosened.
But never mind all the theoretical crap that blows your arguments out of the
water. Post here again on the topic after you've uncrated a few new or
rebuild motors and read the manufacturer or rebuilders note sheet saying
that for certain aplication this or that head bolt must be changed. Not
once did I come across a sheet that said if a head bolt needed to be
switched return to manufacturer for re-assembly. Why wouldn't they also put
in a note that voided the warranty if the installer switched any head bolts?
I don't care if the gasket is $40 or $400, it's a waste. And it's okay for
someone else to waste an hour, as long as it's not yours, right? Another
one of those cases where you'll also tell him how long it will take too.
You sure you could remove the valve cover, all the rockers and pushrods, all
head bolts, clean all gasket surfaces, re-assemble including run through the
torque sequence in an hour? Is that based on comparison to your personal
best or just your average times for that job?
Why does the cost even come into this, the mere $40? Cost shouldn't
even factor into this. It's either right or it's not. Will the head gasket
only fail if it were a mere $40 risk? What about the use of torque to yield
head bolts at about $50 a set? May not be used on the old technology 4.0,
but we're talking in generalities about a general practice here. When your
mere $40 got up to a mere $100 with the valve cover gasket and bolts would
it then be okay to switch them without replacing the gasket? What if you
were doing a northstar 8 cyl and a bolt had to be switched from one bank to
the other? DOHC, timing chain and timing sequence, four cams to remove,
hours of work, all head bolts to replace, risk of thread damage to the
aluminum block every time the bolts are turned etc. Would you still do it
if it were a mere $250?
Tell us about your experience in the field and help us gain some confidence
in your advise.
Steve




"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:VCboc.57707$u_4.25328@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> C'mon Steve, think about it. Why does every single manufacturer have a 3
> step torque sequence in a specific pattern when installing heads? Do you
> really think these guys sit at their desks and dream up a "special" way of
> tightening head bolts just for ***** and giggles? Think about what a head
> gasket goes thru in its life cycle. Heating repeatedly from up to -40F up
to
> 220+F at least once a day, subjected to 150PSI and then 20" of vacuum
> several times a second, its exposed to hot oil, antifreeze and fire.
Engines
> with aluminum heads also experience different expansion rates between the
> block and heads due to dissimilar metal. Cast iron does to a lesser degree
> because of the vast difference in the shapes of the components. All this
> from a gasket that is less than 1/16" thick. Yeah, I'll chance removing
> bolts and possibly sacrificing the integrity of my measly head gasket for
a
> mere $40, not. I'm glad you don't rebuild my engines.
>
> Chris
>
>
> "Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in message
> news:m0boc.447694$oR5.165620@pd7tw3no...
> > Come on guys, think about this. You've got two heavey cast items bolted
> > together by what, a dozen bolts. You think if you loosen 2 that the
head
> is
> > going to twist so much that the spot where you've removed the bolts is
> going
> > to spring up and seperate the gasket? Yes, by all means warn the
mechanic
> > that if he does remove those bolts to watch out that the rebounding cyl
> head
> > doesn't hit him in the eye!
> > Give the poor shop guy a break. You will accomplish absolutely
> nothing
> > by making him replace that gasket except **** him off and waste
everyone's
> > time and money. Nowhere in any machinist/engine rebuilder's manuals is
it
> > going to give the assembler a layout for stud headbolts for all vehicles
> > that the engines could go into. If it was such a critical factor don't
> you
> > think the engine manufacturers would have come up with such a thing a
long
> > time ago. If this were the case long blocks would be delivered with the
> > heads not installed so that head bolts can be arranged as required for
the
> > particular vehicle it's going into. This happens all the time and is
done
> > all the time. Don't make him do it just because "you paid a lot for the
> > job". Make him do something if it's the right thing to do and this is
> > definately not it. I've been a licensed Interprovincial Journeyman
> mechanic
> > since 1972 and I will bet anything anyone here wants to cover that
> switching
> > those bolts will not be responsible for any premature gasket failure.
It
> > always used to frost me when armchair mechanics would come in and tell
me
> > how to do things, how long it should take and how much I should charge.
> Why
> > the hell weren't they in the business?
> > All you skeptics should try this little test. Stand beside a 4.0 l
> > block and lower the cyl head on being carefull to pinch a piece of loose
> > skin, perhaps on your hammer. Now fully torque all bolts to spec.
Next,
> > remove any two bolts and try to pull your hammer out. See, no loss of
> > tension.
> > Steve G.
> > "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
> > news:%3Ync.52725$u_4.9998@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > Dont lose faith Bill. Sometimes the projects that are the most trouble
> > turn
> > > out the best, if that makes any sense. The price for your rebuild is
> high
> > > compared to what we pay here, but it is probably in line with your
area.
> I
> > > don't know what the prices are like for engine shops there, so maybe
all
> > is
> > > fine. I will stick to my guns on the fact that, for what you are
paying
> > for
> > > the job, the guy should replace the head gasket, no questions asked.
> Maybe
> > > having worked in an engine shop for several years building very high
> > strung
> > > racing engines has made me more critical of what I would consider
subpar
> > > work. Like I said in my previous post, your gasket MAY never fail
> because
> > of
> > > changing those bolts, but think about it this way: do you really want
to
> > > have to worry about it out on a trail, or worry about it everytime you
> > start
> > > your Jeep? I would personally hate to get stranded somewhere in BFE
> > because
> > > of a failure that could have easily been prevented with a simple
gasket
> > > replacement.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > news:2gai14Fl3atU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > > > Well let me just say that you guys are giving me a big fat knot in
my
> > > > stomach. :-).
> > > >
> > > > As I mentioned before, I did a lot of leg work in this area to find
a
> > good
> > > > shop for R&R and machine and Chris thinks I paid way too much for
the
> > > > rebuild.
> > > >
> > > > Sounds like I just need to move the heck out of this state.
> > > >
> > > > Hopefully I have a jeep at the end of all this otherwise I'll push
it
> > into
> > > a
> > > > crater somewhere or blow the thing up.
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:40A00749.413F24BB@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > I have seen that head gasket separation too many times....
> > > > >
> > > > > I used to run a 1275 CC block with an 1100 cc head on it for the
> > > > > compression boost from the smaller dome with the same sized valves
> in
> > an
> > > > > old Mini and that had a mis matched gasket like Bill's does.
> > > > >
> > > > > I ran it fast sometimes, LOL, radar clocked at 132.4 mph and it
was
> a
> > > > > 'real' bugger to keep a head gasket in it. (loved to top out the
> 'hot
> > > > > rod' 1/4 mile Camaros and Vettes as I hit 4th at 104 mph @ 5000
rpm
> or
> > > > > so and waved as I went by)
> > > > >
> > > > > My buddy and I had a head gasket swap down to 30 minutes....
> > > > >
> > > > > The British Leyland dealer thought they had a bad batch of gaskets
> > until
> > > > > they called me in for a 'free' check of my 'built' engine that a
> Mini
> > > > > guru they know well made... It broke the first compression gauge,
> > > > > popped the pin off.
> > > > >
> > > > > The starter would barely turn it over and it was a 'thumper' for
> idle
> > > > > with a 2 1/2" straight pipe and glass pack.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think Bill wants to get that good at swapping head gaskets
> > > > > unless he had the benefits I had....
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > c wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just have to add my 2 cents here Bill. I hope to heck that
> > whatever
> > > > they
> > > > > > do to fix the bolt problem works out for you. Things like this
> make
> > me
> > > > glad
> > > > > > that I rebuild my own stuff. Anyway, for what you paid for the
> > > rebuild,
> > > > I
> > > > > > would insist that they change the head gasket. I don't know what
> > type
> > > of
> > > > > > gasket they used, but some of them form quite a bond to the head
> and
> > > > block
> > > > > > surfaces, so relaxing the bolt torque could cause the gasket
> layers
> > to
> > > > > > separate slightly. Then it becomes leak time. Like Mike said,
> since
> > > > there
> > > > > > were different types of bolts for the heads, the guy should have
> at
> > > > least
> > > > > > asked you where the special bracket bolt belonged, unless he
knew
> > for
> > > > sure
> > > > > > (which he didn't). The second thing here that would raise a red
> flag
> > > is
> > > > the
> > > > > > fact that the rebuilder didn't insist on changing the gasket
after
> > his
> > > > oops.
> > > > > > I rebuild engines in my own shop and would never risk that. Is
he
> > > going
> > > > to
> > > > > > do all the labor and reimburse you for your car rental, towing,
> etc.
> > > if
> > > > the
> > > > > > gasket fails? If not, I would insist he change the gasket. The
> > gasket
> > > is
> > > > > > probably about $40 at most, and and hour or two of his time to
do
> it
> > > > right.
> > > > > > IMHO, this sounds like poor quality work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chris
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:2ga6scFhuirU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > > > > > > Ha ha.... I'm getting to know you well Mike. After the last
> > post
> > > > that I
> > > > > > > knew you'd have that reply as I was thinking I'd have the same
> > > reply.
> > > > :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for the Devil's Advocate. I certainly hope my 'luck'
> > doesn't
> > > > fall
> > > > > > > into the 'bad' category from here out. I'm already shot to my
> > bones
> > > > with
> > > > > > > nerves on this one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Come on housing crash so I can afford my own garage :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:409FE117.73D0C0AD@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > I just like to play the devil's advocate some days Bill, I
> hope
> > it
> > > > works
> > > > > > > > out great for you.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Still, not knowing where the freaking bolts go sure doesn't
> > > instill
> > > > > > > > confidence in the statement 'I choose him because he has
done
> > this
> > > > mod
> > > > > > > > before and is fully familiar with it.'
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mike, the mechanic didn't put the thing together. The
> > > > > > rebuilder/machine
> > > > > > > > > shop did. They did the rebuild on the short block and put
> my
> > > > > > previously
> > > > > > > > > machined 4.0L head on it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There are two entities in this process. 1. the R&R guy,
> you
> > > can
> > > > call
> > > > > > > him a
> > > > > > > > > mechanic. 2. The Machine Shop/Rebuilder.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > #2 is the one who bolted the thing together and I choose
him
> > > > because
> > > > > > he
> > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > done this mod before and is fully familiar with it. This
> guy
> > > has
> > > > a
> > > > > > > history
> > > > > > > > > of jeeps including racing sand jeeps. He's the best I
could
> > > find
> > > > in
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > area for this application.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > He warranties the work for a year.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > He confirmed that it would be no problem for #1 (mechanic)
> to
> > > > change
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > bolts so if he's wrong he'll have to fix it if it comes
down
> > to
> > > > it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:409FD597.39970CF5@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > > > He already has a mis match on the head gasket Steve.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > He is putting a 4.0 head onto a 4.2 block. That makes
it
> a
> > > > > > 'twitchy'
> > > > > > > > > > installation to start.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 'I' would not take a chance on blowing a new engine for
> > > > something
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > dumb.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Maybe that is just me, but.... If I forked out in the
> order
> > > of
> > > > $2K
> > > > > > > plus
> > > > > > > > > > I most certainly would not take a chance on a head
gasket
> > that
> > > > > > 'might
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > might not' be compromised.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have assembled and have seen assembled a whole pile of
> > > engines
> > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > > > the years and most people, let alone 'mechanics' stop
and
> > > think
> > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > they find 2 head bolts that are nutted studs instead of
> > bolts.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It seem 'logical' that these 'strange' bolt like things
> > should
> > > > go
> > > > > > > > > > somewhere special eh?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > One is for the bracket, the other goes on the back
drivers
> > > side
> > > > > > corner
> > > > > > > > > > for the ground strap to bolt onto.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In all due fairness poor Bill's 'mechanic' is kinda on
the
> > > brain
> > > > > > dead
> > > > > > > > > > side to just put it together wrong without checking
> wouldn't
> > > you
> > > > > > say?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Steve G wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I've done it hundreds of times and there won't be a
> > problem
> > > > > > > switching
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > bolts and just re-torquing those two. In all
probability
> > > it's
> > > > one
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > outside bolts which are the last to be torqued in the
> > > sequence
> > > > > > > anyways.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > In all fairness to the mechanic Mike, these guys have
no
> > way
> > > > of
> > > > > > > knowing
> > > > > > > > > > > which bolt is supposed to have the stud on it and
> > different
> > > > > > > > > installations
> > > > > > > > > > > sometimes have different positions for that bolt. May
> not
> > > be
> > > > the
> > > > > > > case
> > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > all 4.0, although I doubt that they all come the same
> way
> > > in
> > > > all
> > > > > > > > > > > applications. I know for a fact lots of Pontiac,
Buick
> > and
> > > > Olds
> > > > > > > v-8's
> > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > have the head bolts with the stud on it in different
> > > locations
> > > > > > > depending
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > what model vehicle it was going in and the assembler
> would
> > > > have no
> > > > > > > way
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > knowing.
> > > > > > > > > > > Steve G.
> > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:409FC445.928E9186@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come
> > from....
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have
any
> > > luck
> > > > at
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt
> > engine
> > > > with
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > already 'blown' head gasket.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Head gaskets only compress once.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to
tail
> > in
> > > > '00
> > > > > > > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Just had my engine rebuilt. New cam, new crank
> 10/10,
> > > new
> > > > > > > bearings,
> > > > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > > > > pistons and rings, flywheel balanced and all
married
> > up
> > > to
> > > > my
> > > > > > > 4.0L
> > > > > > > > > head
> > > > > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the door.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Now the R&R guy has noticed one of the head bolts
is
> > out
> > > > of
> > > > > > > position
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > power steering bracket so he needs to switch them.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there any problem switching two head bolts
which
> > > reside
> > > > > > side
> > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > side
> > > > > > > > > > > > > without going through the entire torquing sequence
> > > again?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > That is, can these two bolts be taking out,
> switched,
> > > put
> > > > back
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > torqued down without any problems?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > R&R guy says no problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Steve G

That's not the issue. I'm sure the guy in the shop would make no bones
about switching the bolts. It's the "experts" that tell him he needs to
remove the head and replace the gasket that he will, and should, take
exception to. If I was him and someone came back and told me they wanted
those bolts switched and the head gasket replaced in the course of it I'd
say "yep, bring it on down" When I was finished I would collect $ for the
gaskets and my time before I gave him his engine back. That's a total waste
of time and money, but the customer is always right. If he's prepared to
switch those bolts without the gasket and still warranties the engine,
thast's his perogative.
Steve
"Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
news:20040511132416194-0800@enews.newsguy.com...
> In <m0boc.447694$oR5.165620@pd7tw3no> Steve G wrote:
>
> > Nowhere in any machinist/engine
> > rebuilder's manuals is it going to give the assembler a layout for
> > stud headbolts for all vehicles that the engines could go into.
>
> The difference is, the OP hired a shop to have HIS engine rebuilt. It
> is not too much to expect that it be returned to him with all of the
> bolts in the correct place. The guy took this specific engine apart and
> he should be able to put it back together the same way. In such a case,
> one always wonders what ELSE wasn't put back together correctly.
>
> > Make him do something if it's the right thing to do and this is
> > definately not it.
>
> Maybe you are right and there will be no problem, but in the unlikely
> event that it DOES cause a head gasket failure say 2-3 years down the
> road I can tell you exactly what is going to happen. He will have to
> pay for the repair out of his own pocket because his engine rebuild will
> be out of warranty. He is well within his rights to expect that the job
> be done correctly from the start. If it were MY engine and I made this
> mistake myself, I would probably just switch the bolts but if I had
> hired a professional to do it I would damn well expect either a new head
> gasket or a signed agreement stating that the shop is liable for head
> gasket failure beyond the normal warranty period.
>
> > I've been a licensed Interprovincial Journeyman
> > mechanic since 1972 and I will bet anything anyone here wants to cover
> > that switching those bolts will not be responsible for any premature
> > gasket failure. It always used to frost me when armchair mechanics
> > would come in and tell me how to do things, how long it should take
> > and how much I should charge. Why the hell weren't they in the
> > business?
>
> I guess that makes you the only guy here qualified to render an opinion (
> yeah, right). Clue: some of the guys advising him to get the gasket
> replaced either are currently or have been employed as professional
> mechanics, or as shop owners.
>
> > All you skeptics should try this little test. Stand
> > beside a 4.0 l block and lower the cyl head on being carefull to pinch
> > a piece of loose skin, perhaps on your hammer. Now fully torque all
> > bolts to spec. Next, remove any two bolts and try to pull your hammer
> > out. See, no loss of tension.
>
> What the ----?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/