William Oliveri

Thanks Chris,

It's just a bit of head spinning going on. While working to get this done
I also have my wife chirping in the background about spending money on this
jeep. Then the R&R guy calls me about the head bolt and says he can't find
a place to mount the Crankshaft Position Sensor after I gave him
instructions and pictures.

I'll be glad when this crap is over for sure.

Bill


"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:%3Ync.52725$u_4.9998@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Dont lose faith Bill. Sometimes the projects that are the most trouble
turn
> out the best, if that makes any sense. The price for your rebuild is high
> compared to what we pay here, but it is probably in line with your area. I
> don't know what the prices are like for engine shops there, so maybe all
is
> fine. I will stick to my guns on the fact that, for what you are paying
for
> the job, the guy should replace the head gasket, no questions asked. Maybe
> having worked in an engine shop for several years building very high
strung
> racing engines has made me more critical of what I would consider subpar
> work. Like I said in my previous post, your gasket MAY never fail because
of
> changing those bolts, but think about it this way: do you really want to
> have to worry about it out on a trail, or worry about it everytime you
start
> your Jeep? I would personally hate to get stranded somewhere in BFE
because
> of a failure that could have easily been prevented with a simple gasket
> replacement.
>
> Chris
>
> "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> news:2gai14Fl3atU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > Well let me just say that you guys are giving me a big fat knot in my
> > stomach. :-).
> >
> > As I mentioned before, I did a lot of leg work in this area to find a
good
> > shop for R&R and machine and Chris thinks I paid way too much for the
> > rebuild.
> >
> > Sounds like I just need to move the heck out of this state.
> >
> > Hopefully I have a jeep at the end of all this otherwise I'll push it
into
> a
> > crater somewhere or blow the thing up.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:40A00749.413F24BB@sympatico.ca...
> > > I have seen that head gasket separation too many times....
> > >
> > > I used to run a 1275 CC block with an 1100 cc head on it for the
> > > compression boost from the smaller dome with the same sized valves in
an
> > > old Mini and that had a mis matched gasket like Bill's does.
> > >
> > > I ran it fast sometimes, LOL, radar clocked at 132.4 mph and it was a
> > > 'real' bugger to keep a head gasket in it. (loved to top out the 'hot
> > > rod' 1/4 mile Camaros and Vettes as I hit 4th at 104 mph @ 5000 rpm or
> > > so and waved as I went by)
> > >
> > > My buddy and I had a head gasket swap down to 30 minutes....
> > >
> > > The British Leyland dealer thought they had a bad batch of gaskets
until
> > > they called me in for a 'free' check of my 'built' engine that a Mini
> > > guru they know well made... It broke the first compression gauge,
> > > popped the pin off.
> > >
> > > The starter would barely turn it over and it was a 'thumper' for idle
> > > with a 2 1/2" straight pipe and glass pack.
> > >
> > > I don't think Bill wants to get that good at swapping head gaskets
> > > unless he had the benefits I had....
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > c wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I just have to add my 2 cents here Bill. I hope to heck that
whatever
> > they
> > > > do to fix the bolt problem works out for you. Things like this make
me
> > glad
> > > > that I rebuild my own stuff. Anyway, for what you paid for the
> rebuild,
> > I
> > > > would insist that they change the head gasket. I don't know what
type
> of
> > > > gasket they used, but some of them form quite a bond to the head and
> > block
> > > > surfaces, so relaxing the bolt torque could cause the gasket layers
to
> > > > separate slightly. Then it becomes leak time. Like Mike said, since
> > there
> > > > were different types of bolts for the heads, the guy should have at
> > least
> > > > asked you where the special bracket bolt belonged, unless he knew
for
> > sure
> > > > (which he didn't). The second thing here that would raise a red flag
> is
> > the
> > > > fact that the rebuilder didn't insist on changing the gasket after
his
> > oops.
> > > > I rebuild engines in my own shop and would never risk that. Is he
> going
> > to
> > > > do all the labor and reimburse you for your car rental, towing, etc.
> if
> > the
> > > > gasket fails? If not, I would insist he change the gasket. The
gasket
> is
> > > > probably about $40 at most, and and hour or two of his time to do it
> > right.
> > > > IMHO, this sounds like poor quality work.
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > > "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:2ga6scFhuirU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > > > > Ha ha.... I'm getting to know you well Mike. After the last
post
> > that I
> > > > > knew you'd have that reply as I was thinking I'd have the same
> reply.
> > :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the Devil's Advocate. I certainly hope my 'luck'
doesn't
> > fall
> > > > > into the 'bad' category from here out. I'm already shot to my
bones
> > with
> > > > > nerves on this one.
> > > > >
> > > > > Come on housing crash so I can afford my own garage :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:409FE117.73D0C0AD@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > I just like to play the devil's advocate some days Bill, I hope
it
> > works
> > > > > > out great for you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Still, not knowing where the freaking bolts go sure doesn't
> instill
> > > > > > confidence in the statement 'I choose him because he has done
this
> > mod
> > > > > > before and is fully familiar with it.'
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike, the mechanic didn't put the thing together. The
> > > > rebuilder/machine
> > > > > > > shop did. They did the rebuild on the short block and put my
> > > > previously
> > > > > > > machined 4.0L head on it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are two entities in this process. 1. the R&R guy, you
> can
> > call
> > > > > him a
> > > > > > > mechanic. 2. The Machine Shop/Rebuilder.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > #2 is the one who bolted the thing together and I choose him
> > because
> > > > he
> > > > > has
> > > > > > > done this mod before and is fully familiar with it. This guy
> has
> > a
> > > > > history
> > > > > > > of jeeps including racing sand jeeps. He's the best I could
> find
> > in
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > area for this application.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He warranties the work for a year.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He confirmed that it would be no problem for #1 (mechanic) to
> > change
> > > > the
> > > > > > > bolts so if he's wrong he'll have to fix it if it comes down
to
> > it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:409FD597.39970CF5@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > He already has a mis match on the head gasket Steve.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > He is putting a 4.0 head onto a 4.2 block. That makes it a
> > > > 'twitchy'
> > > > > > > > installation to start.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 'I' would not take a chance on blowing a new engine for
> > something
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > dumb.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Maybe that is just me, but.... If I forked out in the order
> of
> > $2K
> > > > > plus
> > > > > > > > I most certainly would not take a chance on a head gasket
that
> > > > 'might
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > > might not' be compromised.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have assembled and have seen assembled a whole pile of
> engines
> > > > over
> > > > > > > > the years and most people, let alone 'mechanics' stop and
> think
> > when
> > > > > > > > they find 2 head bolts that are nutted studs instead of
bolts.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It seem 'logical' that these 'strange' bolt like things
should
> > go
> > > > > > > > somewhere special eh?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > One is for the bracket, the other goes on the back drivers
> side
> > > > corner
> > > > > > > > for the ground strap to bolt onto.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In all due fairness poor Bill's 'mechanic' is kinda on the
> brain
> > > > dead
> > > > > > > > side to just put it together wrong without checking wouldn't
> you
> > > > say?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Steve G wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I've done it hundreds of times and there won't be a
problem
> > > > > switching
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > bolts and just re-torquing those two. In all probability
> it's
> > one
> > > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > outside bolts which are the last to be torqued in the
> sequence
> > > > > anyways.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In all fairness to the mechanic Mike, these guys have no
way
> > of
> > > > > knowing
> > > > > > > > > which bolt is supposed to have the stud on it and
different
> > > > > > > installations
> > > > > > > > > sometimes have different positions for that bolt. May not
> be
> > the
> > > > > case
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > all 4.0, although I doubt that they all come the same way
> in
> > all
> > > > > > > > > applications. I know for a fact lots of Pontiac, Buick
and
> > Olds
> > > > > v-8's
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > have the head bolts with the stud on it in different
> locations
> > > > > depending
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > what model vehicle it was going in and the assembler would
> > have no
> > > > > way
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > knowing.
> > > > > > > > > Steve G.
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:409FC445.928E9186@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > > > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come
from....
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have any
> luck
> > at
> > > > all
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt
engine
> > with
> > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > already 'blown' head gasket.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Head gaskets only compress once.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail
in
> > '00
> > > > > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Just had my engine rebuilt. New cam, new crank 10/10,
> new
> > > > > bearings,
> > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > > pistons and rings, flywheel balanced and all married
up
> to
> > my
> > > > > 4.0L
> > > > > > > head
> > > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > > > the door.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Now the R&R guy has noticed one of the head bolts is
out
> > of
> > > > > position
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > power steering bracket so he needs to switch them.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Is there any problem switching two head bolts which
> reside
> > > > side
> > > > > by
> > > > > > > side
> > > > > > > > > > > without going through the entire torquing sequence
> again?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > That is, can these two bolts be taking out, switched,
> put
> > back
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > torqued down without any problems?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > R&R guy says no problem.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > >
> >
> >
>
>

Will Honea

I'm with you, Bill. I've had to do the same swap a time or two and
the only wrinkle I put in the process is to spring for ONE extra head
bolt. That way I can remove one bolt/stud, replace that one, then go
swap the other. That should keep the freaking head in place and
prevent any serious separation during the process. Hell, if swapping
one bolt at a time allows the head to give that much you got more
problems that just a head gasket with that warped head!

On Mon, 10 May 2004 19:35:55 UTC L.W.(ßill) ------ III
<----------@***.net> wrote:

> Hi Mike,
> Cut him some slack, I can see where an engine builder may be
> confused as to where a head bolt with the stud would go, I don't know of
> any book that would tell him where fifty years of different brackets
> would attach. Anyway, the installer should be able to swap bolts.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Mike Romain wrote:
> >
> > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come from....
> >
> > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> >
> > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have any luck at all would
> > you?
> > ;-)
> >
> > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt engine with an
> > already 'blown' head gasket.
> >
> > Head gaskets only compress once.
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's


--
Will Honea

Will Honea

I'm with you, Bill. I've had to do the same swap a time or two and
the only wrinkle I put in the process is to spring for ONE extra head
bolt. That way I can remove one bolt/stud, replace that one, then go
swap the other. That should keep the freaking head in place and
prevent any serious separation during the process. Hell, if swapping
one bolt at a time allows the head to give that much you got more
problems that just a head gasket with that warped head!

On Mon, 10 May 2004 19:35:55 UTC L.W.(ßill) ------ III
<----------@***.net> wrote:

> Hi Mike,
> Cut him some slack, I can see where an engine builder may be
> confused as to where a head bolt with the stud would go, I don't know of
> any book that would tell him where fifty years of different brackets
> would attach. Anyway, the installer should be able to swap bolts.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Mike Romain wrote:
> >
> > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come from....
> >
> > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> >
> > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have any luck at all would
> > you?
> > ;-)
> >
> > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt engine with an
> > already 'blown' head gasket.
> >
> > Head gaskets only compress once.
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's


--
Will Honea

Will Honea

I'm with you, Bill. I've had to do the same swap a time or two and
the only wrinkle I put in the process is to spring for ONE extra head
bolt. That way I can remove one bolt/stud, replace that one, then go
swap the other. That should keep the freaking head in place and
prevent any serious separation during the process. Hell, if swapping
one bolt at a time allows the head to give that much you got more
problems that just a head gasket with that warped head!

On Mon, 10 May 2004 19:35:55 UTC L.W.(ßill) ------ III
<----------@***.net> wrote:

> Hi Mike,
> Cut him some slack, I can see where an engine builder may be
> confused as to where a head bolt with the stud would go, I don't know of
> any book that would tell him where fifty years of different brackets
> would attach. Anyway, the installer should be able to swap bolts.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Mike Romain wrote:
> >
> > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come from....
> >
> > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> >
> > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have any luck at all would
> > you?
> > ;-)
> >
> > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt engine with an
> > already 'blown' head gasket.
> >
> > Head gaskets only compress once.
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's


--
Will Honea

Will Honea

I'm with you, Bill. I've had to do the same swap a time or two and
the only wrinkle I put in the process is to spring for ONE extra head
bolt. That way I can remove one bolt/stud, replace that one, then go
swap the other. That should keep the freaking head in place and
prevent any serious separation during the process. Hell, if swapping
one bolt at a time allows the head to give that much you got more
problems that just a head gasket with that warped head!

On Mon, 10 May 2004 19:35:55 UTC L.W.(ßill) ------ III
<----------@***.net> wrote:

> Hi Mike,
> Cut him some slack, I can see where an engine builder may be
> confused as to where a head bolt with the stud would go, I don't know of
> any book that would tell him where fifty years of different brackets
> would attach. Anyway, the installer should be able to swap bolts.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Mike Romain wrote:
> >
> > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come from....
> >
> > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> >
> > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have any luck at all would
> > you?
> > ;-)
> >
> > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt engine with an
> > already 'blown' head gasket.
> >
> > Head gaskets only compress once.
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's


--
Will Honea

Steve G

Come on guys, think about this. You've got two heavey cast items bolted
together by what, a dozen bolts. You think if you loosen 2 that the head is
going to twist so much that the spot where you've removed the bolts is going
to spring up and seperate the gasket? Yes, by all means warn the mechanic
that if he does remove those bolts to watch out that the rebounding cyl head
doesn't hit him in the eye!
Give the poor shop guy a break. You will accomplish absolutely nothing
by making him replace that gasket except **** him off and waste everyone's
time and money. Nowhere in any machinist/engine rebuilder's manuals is it
going to give the assembler a layout for stud headbolts for all vehicles
that the engines could go into. If it was such a critical factor don't you
think the engine manufacturers would have come up with such a thing a long
time ago. If this were the case long blocks would be delivered with the
heads not installed so that head bolts can be arranged as required for the
particular vehicle it's going into. This happens all the time and is done
all the time. Don't make him do it just because "you paid a lot for the
job". Make him do something if it's the right thing to do and this is
definately not it. I've been a licensed Interprovincial Journeyman mechanic
since 1972 and I will bet anything anyone here wants to cover that switching
those bolts will not be responsible for any premature gasket failure. It
always used to frost me when armchair mechanics would come in and tell me
how to do things, how long it should take and how much I should charge. Why
the hell weren't they in the business?
All you skeptics should try this little test. Stand beside a 4.0 l
block and lower the cyl head on being carefull to pinch a piece of loose
skin, perhaps on your hammer. Now fully torque all bolts to spec. Next,
remove any two bolts and try to pull your hammer out. See, no loss of
tension.
Steve G.
"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:%3Ync.52725$u_4.9998@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Dont lose faith Bill. Sometimes the projects that are the most trouble
turn
> out the best, if that makes any sense. The price for your rebuild is high
> compared to what we pay here, but it is probably in line with your area. I
> don't know what the prices are like for engine shops there, so maybe all
is
> fine. I will stick to my guns on the fact that, for what you are paying
for
> the job, the guy should replace the head gasket, no questions asked. Maybe
> having worked in an engine shop for several years building very high
strung
> racing engines has made me more critical of what I would consider subpar
> work. Like I said in my previous post, your gasket MAY never fail because
of
> changing those bolts, but think about it this way: do you really want to
> have to worry about it out on a trail, or worry about it everytime you
start
> your Jeep? I would personally hate to get stranded somewhere in BFE
because
> of a failure that could have easily been prevented with a simple gasket
> replacement.
>
> Chris
>
> "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> news:2gai14Fl3atU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > Well let me just say that you guys are giving me a big fat knot in my
> > stomach. :-).
> >
> > As I mentioned before, I did a lot of leg work in this area to find a
good
> > shop for R&R and machine and Chris thinks I paid way too much for the
> > rebuild.
> >
> > Sounds like I just need to move the heck out of this state.
> >
> > Hopefully I have a jeep at the end of all this otherwise I'll push it
into
> a
> > crater somewhere or blow the thing up.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:40A00749.413F24BB@sympatico.ca...
> > > I have seen that head gasket separation too many times....
> > >
> > > I used to run a 1275 CC block with an 1100 cc head on it for the
> > > compression boost from the smaller dome with the same sized valves in
an
> > > old Mini and that had a mis matched gasket like Bill's does.
> > >
> > > I ran it fast sometimes, LOL, radar clocked at 132.4 mph and it was a
> > > 'real' bugger to keep a head gasket in it. (loved to top out the 'hot
> > > rod' 1/4 mile Camaros and Vettes as I hit 4th at 104 mph @ 5000 rpm or
> > > so and waved as I went by)
> > >
> > > My buddy and I had a head gasket swap down to 30 minutes....
> > >
> > > The British Leyland dealer thought they had a bad batch of gaskets
until
> > > they called me in for a 'free' check of my 'built' engine that a Mini
> > > guru they know well made... It broke the first compression gauge,
> > > popped the pin off.
> > >
> > > The starter would barely turn it over and it was a 'thumper' for idle
> > > with a 2 1/2" straight pipe and glass pack.
> > >
> > > I don't think Bill wants to get that good at swapping head gaskets
> > > unless he had the benefits I had....
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > c wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I just have to add my 2 cents here Bill. I hope to heck that
whatever
> > they
> > > > do to fix the bolt problem works out for you. Things like this make
me
> > glad
> > > > that I rebuild my own stuff. Anyway, for what you paid for the
> rebuild,
> > I
> > > > would insist that they change the head gasket. I don't know what
type
> of
> > > > gasket they used, but some of them form quite a bond to the head and
> > block
> > > > surfaces, so relaxing the bolt torque could cause the gasket layers
to
> > > > separate slightly. Then it becomes leak time. Like Mike said, since
> > there
> > > > were different types of bolts for the heads, the guy should have at
> > least
> > > > asked you where the special bracket bolt belonged, unless he knew
for
> > sure
> > > > (which he didn't). The second thing here that would raise a red flag
> is
> > the
> > > > fact that the rebuilder didn't insist on changing the gasket after
his
> > oops.
> > > > I rebuild engines in my own shop and would never risk that. Is he
> going
> > to
> > > > do all the labor and reimburse you for your car rental, towing, etc.
> if
> > the
> > > > gasket fails? If not, I would insist he change the gasket. The
gasket
> is
> > > > probably about $40 at most, and and hour or two of his time to do it
> > right.
> > > > IMHO, this sounds like poor quality work.
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > > "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:2ga6scFhuirU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > > > > Ha ha.... I'm getting to know you well Mike. After the last
post
> > that I
> > > > > knew you'd have that reply as I was thinking I'd have the same
> reply.
> > :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the Devil's Advocate. I certainly hope my 'luck'
doesn't
> > fall
> > > > > into the 'bad' category from here out. I'm already shot to my
bones
> > with
> > > > > nerves on this one.
> > > > >
> > > > > Come on housing crash so I can afford my own garage :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:409FE117.73D0C0AD@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > I just like to play the devil's advocate some days Bill, I hope
it
> > works
> > > > > > out great for you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Still, not knowing where the freaking bolts go sure doesn't
> instill
> > > > > > confidence in the statement 'I choose him because he has done
this
> > mod
> > > > > > before and is fully familiar with it.'
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike, the mechanic didn't put the thing together. The
> > > > rebuilder/machine
> > > > > > > shop did. They did the rebuild on the short block and put my
> > > > previously
> > > > > > > machined 4.0L head on it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are two entities in this process. 1. the R&R guy, you
> can
> > call
> > > > > him a
> > > > > > > mechanic. 2. The Machine Shop/Rebuilder.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > #2 is the one who bolted the thing together and I choose him
> > because
> > > > he
> > > > > has
> > > > > > > done this mod before and is fully familiar with it. This guy
> has
> > a
> > > > > history
> > > > > > > of jeeps including racing sand jeeps. He's the best I could
> find
> > in
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > area for this application.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He warranties the work for a year.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He confirmed that it would be no problem for #1 (mechanic) to
> > change
> > > > the
> > > > > > > bolts so if he's wrong he'll have to fix it if it comes down
to
> > it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:409FD597.39970CF5@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > He already has a mis match on the head gasket Steve.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > He is putting a 4.0 head onto a 4.2 block. That makes it a
> > > > 'twitchy'
> > > > > > > > installation to start.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 'I' would not take a chance on blowing a new engine for
> > something
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > dumb.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Maybe that is just me, but.... If I forked out in the order
> of
> > $2K
> > > > > plus
> > > > > > > > I most certainly would not take a chance on a head gasket
that
> > > > 'might
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > > might not' be compromised.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have assembled and have seen assembled a whole pile of
> engines
> > > > over
> > > > > > > > the years and most people, let alone 'mechanics' stop and
> think
> > when
> > > > > > > > they find 2 head bolts that are nutted studs instead of
bolts.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It seem 'logical' that these 'strange' bolt like things
should
> > go
> > > > > > > > somewhere special eh?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > One is for the bracket, the other goes on the back drivers
> side
> > > > corner
> > > > > > > > for the ground strap to bolt onto.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In all due fairness poor Bill's 'mechanic' is kinda on the
> brain
> > > > dead
> > > > > > > > side to just put it together wrong without checking wouldn't
> you
> > > > say?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Steve G wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I've done it hundreds of times and there won't be a
problem
> > > > > switching
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > bolts and just re-torquing those two. In all probability
> it's
> > one
> > > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > outside bolts which are the last to be torqued in the
> sequence
> > > > > anyways.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In all fairness to the mechanic Mike, these guys have no
way
> > of
> > > > > knowing
> > > > > > > > > which bolt is supposed to have the stud on it and
different
> > > > > > > installations
> > > > > > > > > sometimes have different positions for that bolt. May not
> be
> > the
> > > > > case
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > all 4.0, although I doubt that they all come the same way
> in
> > all
> > > > > > > > > applications. I know for a fact lots of Pontiac, Buick
and
> > Olds
> > > > > v-8's
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > have the head bolts with the stud on it in different
> locations
> > > > > depending
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > what model vehicle it was going in and the assembler would
> > have no
> > > > > way
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > knowing.
> > > > > > > > > Steve G.
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:409FC445.928E9186@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > > > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come
from....
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have any
> luck
> > at
> > > > all
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt
engine
> > with
> > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > already 'blown' head gasket.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Head gaskets only compress once.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail
in
> > '00
> > > > > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Just had my engine rebuilt. New cam, new crank 10/10,
> new
> > > > > bearings,
> > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > > pistons and rings, flywheel balanced and all married
up
> to
> > my
> > > > > 4.0L
> > > > > > > head
> > > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > > > the door.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Now the R&R guy has noticed one of the head bolts is
out
> > of
> > > > > position
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > power steering bracket so he needs to switch them.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Is there any problem switching two head bolts which
> reside
> > > > side
> > > > > by
> > > > > > > side
> > > > > > > > > > > without going through the entire torquing sequence
> again?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > That is, can these two bolts be taking out, switched,
> put
> > back
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > torqued down without any problems?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > R&R guy says no problem.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > >
> >
> >
>
>

Steve G

Come on guys, think about this. You've got two heavey cast items bolted
together by what, a dozen bolts. You think if you loosen 2 that the head is
going to twist so much that the spot where you've removed the bolts is going
to spring up and seperate the gasket? Yes, by all means warn the mechanic
that if he does remove those bolts to watch out that the rebounding cyl head
doesn't hit him in the eye!
Give the poor shop guy a break. You will accomplish absolutely nothing
by making him replace that gasket except **** him off and waste everyone's
time and money. Nowhere in any machinist/engine rebuilder's manuals is it
going to give the assembler a layout for stud headbolts for all vehicles
that the engines could go into. If it was such a critical factor don't you
think the engine manufacturers would have come up with such a thing a long
time ago. If this were the case long blocks would be delivered with the
heads not installed so that head bolts can be arranged as required for the
particular vehicle it's going into. This happens all the time and is done
all the time. Don't make him do it just because "you paid a lot for the
job". Make him do something if it's the right thing to do and this is
definately not it. I've been a licensed Interprovincial Journeyman mechanic
since 1972 and I will bet anything anyone here wants to cover that switching
those bolts will not be responsible for any premature gasket failure. It
always used to frost me when armchair mechanics would come in and tell me
how to do things, how long it should take and how much I should charge. Why
the hell weren't they in the business?
All you skeptics should try this little test. Stand beside a 4.0 l
block and lower the cyl head on being carefull to pinch a piece of loose
skin, perhaps on your hammer. Now fully torque all bolts to spec. Next,
remove any two bolts and try to pull your hammer out. See, no loss of
tension.
Steve G.
"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:%3Ync.52725$u_4.9998@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Dont lose faith Bill. Sometimes the projects that are the most trouble
turn
> out the best, if that makes any sense. The price for your rebuild is high
> compared to what we pay here, but it is probably in line with your area. I
> don't know what the prices are like for engine shops there, so maybe all
is
> fine. I will stick to my guns on the fact that, for what you are paying
for
> the job, the guy should replace the head gasket, no questions asked. Maybe
> having worked in an engine shop for several years building very high
strung
> racing engines has made me more critical of what I would consider subpar
> work. Like I said in my previous post, your gasket MAY never fail because
of
> changing those bolts, but think about it this way: do you really want to
> have to worry about it out on a trail, or worry about it everytime you
start
> your Jeep? I would personally hate to get stranded somewhere in BFE
because
> of a failure that could have easily been prevented with a simple gasket
> replacement.
>
> Chris
>
> "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> news:2gai14Fl3atU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > Well let me just say that you guys are giving me a big fat knot in my
> > stomach. :-).
> >
> > As I mentioned before, I did a lot of leg work in this area to find a
good
> > shop for R&R and machine and Chris thinks I paid way too much for the
> > rebuild.
> >
> > Sounds like I just need to move the heck out of this state.
> >
> > Hopefully I have a jeep at the end of all this otherwise I'll push it
into
> a
> > crater somewhere or blow the thing up.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:40A00749.413F24BB@sympatico.ca...
> > > I have seen that head gasket separation too many times....
> > >
> > > I used to run a 1275 CC block with an 1100 cc head on it for the
> > > compression boost from the smaller dome with the same sized valves in
an
> > > old Mini and that had a mis matched gasket like Bill's does.
> > >
> > > I ran it fast sometimes, LOL, radar clocked at 132.4 mph and it was a
> > > 'real' bugger to keep a head gasket in it. (loved to top out the 'hot
> > > rod' 1/4 mile Camaros and Vettes as I hit 4th at 104 mph @ 5000 rpm or
> > > so and waved as I went by)
> > >
> > > My buddy and I had a head gasket swap down to 30 minutes....
> > >
> > > The British Leyland dealer thought they had a bad batch of gaskets
until
> > > they called me in for a 'free' check of my 'built' engine that a Mini
> > > guru they know well made... It broke the first compression gauge,
> > > popped the pin off.
> > >
> > > The starter would barely turn it over and it was a 'thumper' for idle
> > > with a 2 1/2" straight pipe and glass pack.
> > >
> > > I don't think Bill wants to get that good at swapping head gaskets
> > > unless he had the benefits I had....
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > c wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I just have to add my 2 cents here Bill. I hope to heck that
whatever
> > they
> > > > do to fix the bolt problem works out for you. Things like this make
me
> > glad
> > > > that I rebuild my own stuff. Anyway, for what you paid for the
> rebuild,
> > I
> > > > would insist that they change the head gasket. I don't know what
type
> of
> > > > gasket they used, but some of them form quite a bond to the head and
> > block
> > > > surfaces, so relaxing the bolt torque could cause the gasket layers
to
> > > > separate slightly. Then it becomes leak time. Like Mike said, since
> > there
> > > > were different types of bolts for the heads, the guy should have at
> > least
> > > > asked you where the special bracket bolt belonged, unless he knew
for
> > sure
> > > > (which he didn't). The second thing here that would raise a red flag
> is
> > the
> > > > fact that the rebuilder didn't insist on changing the gasket after
his
> > oops.
> > > > I rebuild engines in my own shop and would never risk that. Is he
> going
> > to
> > > > do all the labor and reimburse you for your car rental, towing, etc.
> if
> > the
> > > > gasket fails? If not, I would insist he change the gasket. The
gasket
> is
> > > > probably about $40 at most, and and hour or two of his time to do it
> > right.
> > > > IMHO, this sounds like poor quality work.
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > > "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:2ga6scFhuirU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > > > > Ha ha.... I'm getting to know you well Mike. After the last
post
> > that I
> > > > > knew you'd have that reply as I was thinking I'd have the same
> reply.
> > :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the Devil's Advocate. I certainly hope my 'luck'
doesn't
> > fall
> > > > > into the 'bad' category from here out. I'm already shot to my
bones
> > with
> > > > > nerves on this one.
> > > > >
> > > > > Come on housing crash so I can afford my own garage :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:409FE117.73D0C0AD@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > I just like to play the devil's advocate some days Bill, I hope
it
> > works
> > > > > > out great for you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Still, not knowing where the freaking bolts go sure doesn't
> instill
> > > > > > confidence in the statement 'I choose him because he has done
this
> > mod
> > > > > > before and is fully familiar with it.'
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike, the mechanic didn't put the thing together. The
> > > > rebuilder/machine
> > > > > > > shop did. They did the rebuild on the short block and put my
> > > > previously
> > > > > > > machined 4.0L head on it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are two entities in this process. 1. the R&R guy, you
> can
> > call
> > > > > him a
> > > > > > > mechanic. 2. The Machine Shop/Rebuilder.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > #2 is the one who bolted the thing together and I choose him
> > because
> > > > he
> > > > > has
> > > > > > > done this mod before and is fully familiar with it. This guy
> has
> > a
> > > > > history
> > > > > > > of jeeps including racing sand jeeps. He's the best I could
> find
> > in
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > area for this application.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He warranties the work for a year.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He confirmed that it would be no problem for #1 (mechanic) to
> > change
> > > > the
> > > > > > > bolts so if he's wrong he'll have to fix it if it comes down
to
> > it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:409FD597.39970CF5@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > He already has a mis match on the head gasket Steve.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > He is putting a 4.0 head onto a 4.2 block. That makes it a
> > > > 'twitchy'
> > > > > > > > installation to start.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 'I' would not take a chance on blowing a new engine for
> > something
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > dumb.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Maybe that is just me, but.... If I forked out in the order
> of
> > $2K
> > > > > plus
> > > > > > > > I most certainly would not take a chance on a head gasket
that
> > > > 'might
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > > might not' be compromised.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have assembled and have seen assembled a whole pile of
> engines
> > > > over
> > > > > > > > the years and most people, let alone 'mechanics' stop and
> think
> > when
> > > > > > > > they find 2 head bolts that are nutted studs instead of
bolts.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It seem 'logical' that these 'strange' bolt like things
should
> > go
> > > > > > > > somewhere special eh?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > One is for the bracket, the other goes on the back drivers
> side
> > > > corner
> > > > > > > > for the ground strap to bolt onto.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In all due fairness poor Bill's 'mechanic' is kinda on the
> brain
> > > > dead
> > > > > > > > side to just put it together wrong without checking wouldn't
> you
> > > > say?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Steve G wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I've done it hundreds of times and there won't be a
problem
> > > > > switching
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > bolts and just re-torquing those two. In all probability
> it's
> > one
> > > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > outside bolts which are the last to be torqued in the
> sequence
> > > > > anyways.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In all fairness to the mechanic Mike, these guys have no
way
> > of
> > > > > knowing
> > > > > > > > > which bolt is supposed to have the stud on it and
different
> > > > > > > installations
> > > > > > > > > sometimes have different positions for that bolt. May not
> be
> > the
> > > > > case
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > all 4.0, although I doubt that they all come the same way
> in
> > all
> > > > > > > > > applications. I know for a fact lots of Pontiac, Buick
and
> > Olds
> > > > > v-8's
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > have the head bolts with the stud on it in different
> locations
> > > > > depending
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > what model vehicle it was going in and the assembler would
> > have no
> > > > > way
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > knowing.
> > > > > > > > > Steve G.
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:409FC445.928E9186@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > > > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come
from....
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have any
> luck
> > at
> > > > all
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt
engine
> > with
> > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > already 'blown' head gasket.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Head gaskets only compress once.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail
in
> > '00
> > > > > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Just had my engine rebuilt. New cam, new crank 10/10,
> new
> > > > > bearings,
> > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > > pistons and rings, flywheel balanced and all married
up
> to
> > my
> > > > > 4.0L
> > > > > > > head
> > > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > > > the door.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Now the R&R guy has noticed one of the head bolts is
out
> > of
> > > > > position
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > power steering bracket so he needs to switch them.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Is there any problem switching two head bolts which
> reside
> > > > side
> > > > > by
> > > > > > > side
> > > > > > > > > > > without going through the entire torquing sequence
> again?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > That is, can these two bolts be taking out, switched,
> put
> > back
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > torqued down without any problems?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > R&R guy says no problem.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > >
> >
> >
>
>

Steve G

Come on guys, think about this. You've got two heavey cast items bolted
together by what, a dozen bolts. You think if you loosen 2 that the head is
going to twist so much that the spot where you've removed the bolts is going
to spring up and seperate the gasket? Yes, by all means warn the mechanic
that if he does remove those bolts to watch out that the rebounding cyl head
doesn't hit him in the eye!
Give the poor shop guy a break. You will accomplish absolutely nothing
by making him replace that gasket except **** him off and waste everyone's
time and money. Nowhere in any machinist/engine rebuilder's manuals is it
going to give the assembler a layout for stud headbolts for all vehicles
that the engines could go into. If it was such a critical factor don't you
think the engine manufacturers would have come up with such a thing a long
time ago. If this were the case long blocks would be delivered with the
heads not installed so that head bolts can be arranged as required for the
particular vehicle it's going into. This happens all the time and is done
all the time. Don't make him do it just because "you paid a lot for the
job". Make him do something if it's the right thing to do and this is
definately not it. I've been a licensed Interprovincial Journeyman mechanic
since 1972 and I will bet anything anyone here wants to cover that switching
those bolts will not be responsible for any premature gasket failure. It
always used to frost me when armchair mechanics would come in and tell me
how to do things, how long it should take and how much I should charge. Why
the hell weren't they in the business?
All you skeptics should try this little test. Stand beside a 4.0 l
block and lower the cyl head on being carefull to pinch a piece of loose
skin, perhaps on your hammer. Now fully torque all bolts to spec. Next,
remove any two bolts and try to pull your hammer out. See, no loss of
tension.
Steve G.
"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:%3Ync.52725$u_4.9998@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Dont lose faith Bill. Sometimes the projects that are the most trouble
turn
> out the best, if that makes any sense. The price for your rebuild is high
> compared to what we pay here, but it is probably in line with your area. I
> don't know what the prices are like for engine shops there, so maybe all
is
> fine. I will stick to my guns on the fact that, for what you are paying
for
> the job, the guy should replace the head gasket, no questions asked. Maybe
> having worked in an engine shop for several years building very high
strung
> racing engines has made me more critical of what I would consider subpar
> work. Like I said in my previous post, your gasket MAY never fail because
of
> changing those bolts, but think about it this way: do you really want to
> have to worry about it out on a trail, or worry about it everytime you
start
> your Jeep? I would personally hate to get stranded somewhere in BFE
because
> of a failure that could have easily been prevented with a simple gasket
> replacement.
>
> Chris
>
> "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> news:2gai14Fl3atU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > Well let me just say that you guys are giving me a big fat knot in my
> > stomach. :-).
> >
> > As I mentioned before, I did a lot of leg work in this area to find a
good
> > shop for R&R and machine and Chris thinks I paid way too much for the
> > rebuild.
> >
> > Sounds like I just need to move the heck out of this state.
> >
> > Hopefully I have a jeep at the end of all this otherwise I'll push it
into
> a
> > crater somewhere or blow the thing up.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:40A00749.413F24BB@sympatico.ca...
> > > I have seen that head gasket separation too many times....
> > >
> > > I used to run a 1275 CC block with an 1100 cc head on it for the
> > > compression boost from the smaller dome with the same sized valves in
an
> > > old Mini and that had a mis matched gasket like Bill's does.
> > >
> > > I ran it fast sometimes, LOL, radar clocked at 132.4 mph and it was a
> > > 'real' bugger to keep a head gasket in it. (loved to top out the 'hot
> > > rod' 1/4 mile Camaros and Vettes as I hit 4th at 104 mph @ 5000 rpm or
> > > so and waved as I went by)
> > >
> > > My buddy and I had a head gasket swap down to 30 minutes....
> > >
> > > The British Leyland dealer thought they had a bad batch of gaskets
until
> > > they called me in for a 'free' check of my 'built' engine that a Mini
> > > guru they know well made... It broke the first compression gauge,
> > > popped the pin off.
> > >
> > > The starter would barely turn it over and it was a 'thumper' for idle
> > > with a 2 1/2" straight pipe and glass pack.
> > >
> > > I don't think Bill wants to get that good at swapping head gaskets
> > > unless he had the benefits I had....
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > c wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I just have to add my 2 cents here Bill. I hope to heck that
whatever
> > they
> > > > do to fix the bolt problem works out for you. Things like this make
me
> > glad
> > > > that I rebuild my own stuff. Anyway, for what you paid for the
> rebuild,
> > I
> > > > would insist that they change the head gasket. I don't know what
type
> of
> > > > gasket they used, but some of them form quite a bond to the head and
> > block
> > > > surfaces, so relaxing the bolt torque could cause the gasket layers
to
> > > > separate slightly. Then it becomes leak time. Like Mike said, since
> > there
> > > > were different types of bolts for the heads, the guy should have at
> > least
> > > > asked you where the special bracket bolt belonged, unless he knew
for
> > sure
> > > > (which he didn't). The second thing here that would raise a red flag
> is
> > the
> > > > fact that the rebuilder didn't insist on changing the gasket after
his
> > oops.
> > > > I rebuild engines in my own shop and would never risk that. Is he
> going
> > to
> > > > do all the labor and reimburse you for your car rental, towing, etc.
> if
> > the
> > > > gasket fails? If not, I would insist he change the gasket. The
gasket
> is
> > > > probably about $40 at most, and and hour or two of his time to do it
> > right.
> > > > IMHO, this sounds like poor quality work.
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > > "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:2ga6scFhuirU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > > > > Ha ha.... I'm getting to know you well Mike. After the last
post
> > that I
> > > > > knew you'd have that reply as I was thinking I'd have the same
> reply.
> > :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the Devil's Advocate. I certainly hope my 'luck'
doesn't
> > fall
> > > > > into the 'bad' category from here out. I'm already shot to my
bones
> > with
> > > > > nerves on this one.
> > > > >
> > > > > Come on housing crash so I can afford my own garage :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:409FE117.73D0C0AD@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > I just like to play the devil's advocate some days Bill, I hope
it
> > works
> > > > > > out great for you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Still, not knowing where the freaking bolts go sure doesn't
> instill
> > > > > > confidence in the statement 'I choose him because he has done
this
> > mod
> > > > > > before and is fully familiar with it.'
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike, the mechanic didn't put the thing together. The
> > > > rebuilder/machine
> > > > > > > shop did. They did the rebuild on the short block and put my
> > > > previously
> > > > > > > machined 4.0L head on it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are two entities in this process. 1. the R&R guy, you
> can
> > call
> > > > > him a
> > > > > > > mechanic. 2. The Machine Shop/Rebuilder.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > #2 is the one who bolted the thing together and I choose him
> > because
> > > > he
> > > > > has
> > > > > > > done this mod before and is fully familiar with it. This guy
> has
> > a
> > > > > history
> > > > > > > of jeeps including racing sand jeeps. He's the best I could
> find
> > in
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > area for this application.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He warranties the work for a year.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He confirmed that it would be no problem for #1 (mechanic) to
> > change
> > > > the
> > > > > > > bolts so if he's wrong he'll have to fix it if it comes down
to
> > it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:409FD597.39970CF5@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > He already has a mis match on the head gasket Steve.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > He is putting a 4.0 head onto a 4.2 block. That makes it a
> > > > 'twitchy'
> > > > > > > > installation to start.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 'I' would not take a chance on blowing a new engine for
> > something
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > dumb.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Maybe that is just me, but.... If I forked out in the order
> of
> > $2K
> > > > > plus
> > > > > > > > I most certainly would not take a chance on a head gasket
that
> > > > 'might
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > > might not' be compromised.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have assembled and have seen assembled a whole pile of
> engines
> > > > over
> > > > > > > > the years and most people, let alone 'mechanics' stop and
> think
> > when
> > > > > > > > they find 2 head bolts that are nutted studs instead of
bolts.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It seem 'logical' that these 'strange' bolt like things
should
> > go
> > > > > > > > somewhere special eh?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > One is for the bracket, the other goes on the back drivers
> side
> > > > corner
> > > > > > > > for the ground strap to bolt onto.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In all due fairness poor Bill's 'mechanic' is kinda on the
> brain
> > > > dead
> > > > > > > > side to just put it together wrong without checking wouldn't
> you
> > > > say?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Steve G wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I've done it hundreds of times and there won't be a
problem
> > > > > switching
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > bolts and just re-torquing those two. In all probability
> it's
> > one
> > > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > outside bolts which are the last to be torqued in the
> sequence
> > > > > anyways.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In all fairness to the mechanic Mike, these guys have no
way
> > of
> > > > > knowing
> > > > > > > > > which bolt is supposed to have the stud on it and
different
> > > > > > > installations
> > > > > > > > > sometimes have different positions for that bolt. May not
> be
> > the
> > > > > case
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > all 4.0, although I doubt that they all come the same way
> in
> > all
> > > > > > > > > applications. I know for a fact lots of Pontiac, Buick
and
> > Olds
> > > > > v-8's
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > have the head bolts with the stud on it in different
> locations
> > > > > depending
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > what model vehicle it was going in and the assembler would
> > have no
> > > > > way
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > knowing.
> > > > > > > > > Steve G.
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:409FC445.928E9186@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > > > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come
from....
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have any
> luck
> > at
> > > > all
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt
engine
> > with
> > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > already 'blown' head gasket.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Head gaskets only compress once.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail
in
> > '00
> > > > > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Just had my engine rebuilt. New cam, new crank 10/10,
> new
> > > > > bearings,
> > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > > pistons and rings, flywheel balanced and all married
up
> to
> > my
> > > > > 4.0L
> > > > > > > head
> > > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > > > the door.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Now the R&R guy has noticed one of the head bolts is
out
> > of
> > > > > position
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > power steering bracket so he needs to switch them.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Is there any problem switching two head bolts which
> reside
> > > > side
> > > > > by
> > > > > > > side
> > > > > > > > > > > without going through the entire torquing sequence
> again?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > That is, can these two bolts be taking out, switched,
> put
> > back
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > torqued down without any problems?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > R&R guy says no problem.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > >
> >
> >
>
>

Steve G

Come on guys, think about this. You've got two heavey cast items bolted
together by what, a dozen bolts. You think if you loosen 2 that the head is
going to twist so much that the spot where you've removed the bolts is going
to spring up and seperate the gasket? Yes, by all means warn the mechanic
that if he does remove those bolts to watch out that the rebounding cyl head
doesn't hit him in the eye!
Give the poor shop guy a break. You will accomplish absolutely nothing
by making him replace that gasket except **** him off and waste everyone's
time and money. Nowhere in any machinist/engine rebuilder's manuals is it
going to give the assembler a layout for stud headbolts for all vehicles
that the engines could go into. If it was such a critical factor don't you
think the engine manufacturers would have come up with such a thing a long
time ago. If this were the case long blocks would be delivered with the
heads not installed so that head bolts can be arranged as required for the
particular vehicle it's going into. This happens all the time and is done
all the time. Don't make him do it just because "you paid a lot for the
job". Make him do something if it's the right thing to do and this is
definately not it. I've been a licensed Interprovincial Journeyman mechanic
since 1972 and I will bet anything anyone here wants to cover that switching
those bolts will not be responsible for any premature gasket failure. It
always used to frost me when armchair mechanics would come in and tell me
how to do things, how long it should take and how much I should charge. Why
the hell weren't they in the business?
All you skeptics should try this little test. Stand beside a 4.0 l
block and lower the cyl head on being carefull to pinch a piece of loose
skin, perhaps on your hammer. Now fully torque all bolts to spec. Next,
remove any two bolts and try to pull your hammer out. See, no loss of
tension.
Steve G.
"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:%3Ync.52725$u_4.9998@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Dont lose faith Bill. Sometimes the projects that are the most trouble
turn
> out the best, if that makes any sense. The price for your rebuild is high
> compared to what we pay here, but it is probably in line with your area. I
> don't know what the prices are like for engine shops there, so maybe all
is
> fine. I will stick to my guns on the fact that, for what you are paying
for
> the job, the guy should replace the head gasket, no questions asked. Maybe
> having worked in an engine shop for several years building very high
strung
> racing engines has made me more critical of what I would consider subpar
> work. Like I said in my previous post, your gasket MAY never fail because
of
> changing those bolts, but think about it this way: do you really want to
> have to worry about it out on a trail, or worry about it everytime you
start
> your Jeep? I would personally hate to get stranded somewhere in BFE
because
> of a failure that could have easily been prevented with a simple gasket
> replacement.
>
> Chris
>
> "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> news:2gai14Fl3atU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > Well let me just say that you guys are giving me a big fat knot in my
> > stomach. :-).
> >
> > As I mentioned before, I did a lot of leg work in this area to find a
good
> > shop for R&R and machine and Chris thinks I paid way too much for the
> > rebuild.
> >
> > Sounds like I just need to move the heck out of this state.
> >
> > Hopefully I have a jeep at the end of all this otherwise I'll push it
into
> a
> > crater somewhere or blow the thing up.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:40A00749.413F24BB@sympatico.ca...
> > > I have seen that head gasket separation too many times....
> > >
> > > I used to run a 1275 CC block with an 1100 cc head on it for the
> > > compression boost from the smaller dome with the same sized valves in
an
> > > old Mini and that had a mis matched gasket like Bill's does.
> > >
> > > I ran it fast sometimes, LOL, radar clocked at 132.4 mph and it was a
> > > 'real' bugger to keep a head gasket in it. (loved to top out the 'hot
> > > rod' 1/4 mile Camaros and Vettes as I hit 4th at 104 mph @ 5000 rpm or
> > > so and waved as I went by)
> > >
> > > My buddy and I had a head gasket swap down to 30 minutes....
> > >
> > > The British Leyland dealer thought they had a bad batch of gaskets
until
> > > they called me in for a 'free' check of my 'built' engine that a Mini
> > > guru they know well made... It broke the first compression gauge,
> > > popped the pin off.
> > >
> > > The starter would barely turn it over and it was a 'thumper' for idle
> > > with a 2 1/2" straight pipe and glass pack.
> > >
> > > I don't think Bill wants to get that good at swapping head gaskets
> > > unless he had the benefits I had....
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > c wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I just have to add my 2 cents here Bill. I hope to heck that
whatever
> > they
> > > > do to fix the bolt problem works out for you. Things like this make
me
> > glad
> > > > that I rebuild my own stuff. Anyway, for what you paid for the
> rebuild,
> > I
> > > > would insist that they change the head gasket. I don't know what
type
> of
> > > > gasket they used, but some of them form quite a bond to the head and
> > block
> > > > surfaces, so relaxing the bolt torque could cause the gasket layers
to
> > > > separate slightly. Then it becomes leak time. Like Mike said, since
> > there
> > > > were different types of bolts for the heads, the guy should have at
> > least
> > > > asked you where the special bracket bolt belonged, unless he knew
for
> > sure
> > > > (which he didn't). The second thing here that would raise a red flag
> is
> > the
> > > > fact that the rebuilder didn't insist on changing the gasket after
his
> > oops.
> > > > I rebuild engines in my own shop and would never risk that. Is he
> going
> > to
> > > > do all the labor and reimburse you for your car rental, towing, etc.
> if
> > the
> > > > gasket fails? If not, I would insist he change the gasket. The
gasket
> is
> > > > probably about $40 at most, and and hour or two of his time to do it
> > right.
> > > > IMHO, this sounds like poor quality work.
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > > "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:2ga6scFhuirU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > > > > Ha ha.... I'm getting to know you well Mike. After the last
post
> > that I
> > > > > knew you'd have that reply as I was thinking I'd have the same
> reply.
> > :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the Devil's Advocate. I certainly hope my 'luck'
doesn't
> > fall
> > > > > into the 'bad' category from here out. I'm already shot to my
bones
> > with
> > > > > nerves on this one.
> > > > >
> > > > > Come on housing crash so I can afford my own garage :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:409FE117.73D0C0AD@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > I just like to play the devil's advocate some days Bill, I hope
it
> > works
> > > > > > out great for you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Still, not knowing where the freaking bolts go sure doesn't
> instill
> > > > > > confidence in the statement 'I choose him because he has done
this
> > mod
> > > > > > before and is fully familiar with it.'
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike, the mechanic didn't put the thing together. The
> > > > rebuilder/machine
> > > > > > > shop did. They did the rebuild on the short block and put my
> > > > previously
> > > > > > > machined 4.0L head on it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are two entities in this process. 1. the R&R guy, you
> can
> > call
> > > > > him a
> > > > > > > mechanic. 2. The Machine Shop/Rebuilder.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > #2 is the one who bolted the thing together and I choose him
> > because
> > > > he
> > > > > has
> > > > > > > done this mod before and is fully familiar with it. This guy
> has
> > a
> > > > > history
> > > > > > > of jeeps including racing sand jeeps. He's the best I could
> find
> > in
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > area for this application.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He warranties the work for a year.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He confirmed that it would be no problem for #1 (mechanic) to
> > change
> > > > the
> > > > > > > bolts so if he's wrong he'll have to fix it if it comes down
to
> > it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:409FD597.39970CF5@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > He already has a mis match on the head gasket Steve.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > He is putting a 4.0 head onto a 4.2 block. That makes it a
> > > > 'twitchy'
> > > > > > > > installation to start.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 'I' would not take a chance on blowing a new engine for
> > something
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > dumb.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Maybe that is just me, but.... If I forked out in the order
> of
> > $2K
> > > > > plus
> > > > > > > > I most certainly would not take a chance on a head gasket
that
> > > > 'might
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > > might not' be compromised.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have assembled and have seen assembled a whole pile of
> engines
> > > > over
> > > > > > > > the years and most people, let alone 'mechanics' stop and
> think
> > when
> > > > > > > > they find 2 head bolts that are nutted studs instead of
bolts.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It seem 'logical' that these 'strange' bolt like things
should
> > go
> > > > > > > > somewhere special eh?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > One is for the bracket, the other goes on the back drivers
> side
> > > > corner
> > > > > > > > for the ground strap to bolt onto.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In all due fairness poor Bill's 'mechanic' is kinda on the
> brain
> > > > dead
> > > > > > > > side to just put it together wrong without checking wouldn't
> you
> > > > say?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Steve G wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I've done it hundreds of times and there won't be a
problem
> > > > > switching
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > bolts and just re-torquing those two. In all probability
> it's
> > one
> > > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > outside bolts which are the last to be torqued in the
> sequence
> > > > > anyways.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In all fairness to the mechanic Mike, these guys have no
way
> > of
> > > > > knowing
> > > > > > > > > which bolt is supposed to have the stud on it and
different
> > > > > > > installations
> > > > > > > > > sometimes have different positions for that bolt. May not
> be
> > the
> > > > > case
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > all 4.0, although I doubt that they all come the same way
> in
> > all
> > > > > > > > > applications. I know for a fact lots of Pontiac, Buick
and
> > Olds
> > > > > v-8's
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > have the head bolts with the stud on it in different
> locations
> > > > > depending
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > what model vehicle it was going in and the assembler would
> > have no
> > > > > way
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > knowing.
> > > > > > > > > Steve G.
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:409FC445.928E9186@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > > > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come
from....
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have any
> luck
> > at
> > > > all
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt
engine
> > with
> > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > already 'blown' head gasket.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Head gaskets only compress once.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail
in
> > '00
> > > > > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Just had my engine rebuilt. New cam, new crank 10/10,
> new
> > > > > bearings,
> > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > > pistons and rings, flywheel balanced and all married
up
> to
> > my
> > > > > 4.0L
> > > > > > > head
> > > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > > > the door.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Now the R&R guy has noticed one of the head bolts is
out
> > of
> > > > > position
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > power steering bracket so he needs to switch them.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Is there any problem switching two head bolts which
> reside
> > > > side
> > > > > by
> > > > > > > side
> > > > > > > > > > > without going through the entire torquing sequence
> again?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > That is, can these two bolts be taking out, switched,
> put
> > back
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > torqued down without any problems?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > R&R guy says no problem.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > >
> >
> >
>
>

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

Hi Steve,
You know the installer was covering his rear end otherwise, Bill
would have never heard about it, so that he would have to clear it with
the builder and relieve him of any responsibility. I wouldn't be worried
about it, although I have a pair of ugly A/C head bolt studs pocking out
of my 462" Ford I ain't touching: http://www.----------.com/57bird.jpg
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:--------------------

Steve G wrote:
>
> Come on guys, think about this. You've got two heavey cast items bolted
> together by what, a dozen bolts. You think if you loosen 2 that the head is
> going to twist so much that the spot where you've removed the bolts is going
> to spring up and seperate the gasket? Yes, by all means warn the mechanic
> that if he does remove those bolts to watch out that the rebounding cyl head
> doesn't hit him in the eye!
> Give the poor shop guy a break. You will accomplish absolutely nothing
> by making him replace that gasket except **** him off and waste everyone's
> time and money. Nowhere in any machinist/engine rebuilder's manuals is it
> going to give the assembler a layout for stud headbolts for all vehicles
> that the engines could go into. If it was such a critical factor don't you
> think the engine manufacturers would have come up with such a thing a long
> time ago. If this were the case long blocks would be delivered with the
> heads not installed so that head bolts can be arranged as required for the
> particular vehicle it's going into. This happens all the time and is done
> all the time. Don't make him do it just because "you paid a lot for the
> job". Make him do something if it's the right thing to do and this is
> definately not it. I've been a licensed Interprovincial Journeyman mechanic
> since 1972 and I will bet anything anyone here wants to cover that switching
> those bolts will not be responsible for any premature gasket failure. It
> always used to frost me when armchair mechanics would come in and tell me
> how to do things, how long it should take and how much I should charge. Why
> the hell weren't they in the business?
> All you skeptics should try this little test. Stand beside a 4.0 l
> block and lower the cyl head on being carefull to pinch a piece of loose
> skin, perhaps on your hammer. Now fully torque all bolts to spec. Next,
> remove any two bolts and try to pull your hammer out. See, no loss of
> tension.
> Steve G.