CRWLR

I think that what Bill is saying here is, if you are going to complain about
how your country is being run, you should try standing in defense of it
first, then complain later. At least Kerry got that part right.




"L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
news:41194CD7.B08DDD56@***.net...
> By the way you write I can say you haven't give up a couple of
> years for your country. Like I have in the ARMY. You're just dead
> weight!
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Jeff wrote:
> >
> > I think Dan Quayle was thinking of you when he said:
> >
> > " What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being
> > very wasteful. How true that is."

CRWLR

I think that what Bill is saying here is, if you are going to complain about
how your country is being run, you should try standing in defense of it
first, then complain later. At least Kerry got that part right.




"L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
news:41194CD7.B08DDD56@***.net...
> By the way you write I can say you haven't give up a couple of
> years for your country. Like I have in the ARMY. You're just dead
> weight!
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Jeff wrote:
> >
> > I think Dan Quayle was thinking of you when he said:
> >
> > " What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being
> > very wasteful. How true that is."

CRWLR

I think that what Bill is saying here is, if you are going to complain about
how your country is being run, you should try standing in defense of it
first, then complain later. At least Kerry got that part right.




"L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
news:41194CD7.B08DDD56@***.net...
> By the way you write I can say you haven't give up a couple of
> years for your country. Like I have in the ARMY. You're just dead
> weight!
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Jeff wrote:
> >
> > I think Dan Quayle was thinking of you when he said:
> >
> > " What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being
> > very wasteful. How true that is."

Matt Osborn

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 06:38:58 -0400, Jeff <nothing@here.com> wrote:

>In article <tfigh0dut56ag6od9efs6ifm23rf0fi1m9@4ax.com>, Matt Osborn
>wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 18:10:02 -0400, Jeff <nothing@here.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Bush already declared "mission accomplished" over a year ago. Since
>> >then, Congress has willingly approved additional funds. Unfortunately,
>> >Iraq is now in a state of complete chaos and comprises a much greater
>> >threat to US interests then it did before the war. Bush has managed to
>> >get us in a quagmire and quagmires and not easily gotten out of.
>>
>> Absolute nonsense. Why don't you write to a few of the troops over
>> there and discover what is really happening?
>
>My cousin just returned from over a year there. Explain this nonsense:
>
>1) Fallujah has been abandoned to Sunni fundamentalists who have created
>their own mini-Islamic state;
>
>2) In Ramadi, US troops are contained to a few bunkers and suffer steady
>losses;
>
>3) Further north, around Kirkuk, the northern oil supplies have been
>almost always cut off. Ethnic fighting is on the verge of erupting
>between Sunnis, Turkmen, and Kurds;
>
>4) In Baghdad, the "Green Zone" is rocketed nightly;
>
>5) Shia Muslims in Sadr City (part of Baghdad), Najaf, Karbala, Amarrah,
>Basra, and many other southern cities are in open revolt with heavy
>fighting continuing;
>
>6) Southern oil supplies have just been halted due to the security
>situation. This had caused oil prices to reach an all time high. Have
>you been to the gas station lately?
>
>7) The guy who supplied intelligence information about Saddam's WMDs,
>Ahmed Chalabi, has turned out to be an Iranian spy and has an arrest
>warrant out for him. His relative, Salem Chalabi, who was appointed by
>the US to arrange Saddam's trial, was just charged with murder and has
>an arrest warrant out for him.
>
>I suggest you remove your head from the sand and find out what is really
>happening. More US soldiers died in the month after the so-called
>"Transfer of sovereignty" then died the month before it. Here is a good
>source of info:

When the aircraft carrier flew the 'mission accomplished' banner, that
was a fact. Their mission had been accomplished. You're referring to
the 'end of major combat' which was also a fact. There have been no
Republican Guard tank units defending or attacking since the 'end of
major combat', which, by the way, was a statement requested by General
Franks as a salute to the troops.

There have been more people murdered in the state of Texas since the
'end of major combat' then American deaths in the entire Iraq war.
The same is true of California, so we have had over three times the
Iraqi death rate right here in only two states. Perspective is
important.

The battles for Fallujah, Najaf and Sadr city have been less than
stellar, primarily for political reasons. Now that the Iraqis can
take the heat, those holdouts will also end.

Iraq has more water, more power and is shipping more oil than pre-war
levels. Most schools have been rebuilt and opened. Most children are
attending school, most stores are open and life is back to 'normal'
for many of the Iraqis.

The oil exports have been cut from 1.9 to 1.1 million barrels per day
to a damaged pipeline.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=5919427

Matt Osborn

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 06:38:58 -0400, Jeff <nothing@here.com> wrote:

>In article <tfigh0dut56ag6od9efs6ifm23rf0fi1m9@4ax.com>, Matt Osborn
>wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 18:10:02 -0400, Jeff <nothing@here.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Bush already declared "mission accomplished" over a year ago. Since
>> >then, Congress has willingly approved additional funds. Unfortunately,
>> >Iraq is now in a state of complete chaos and comprises a much greater
>> >threat to US interests then it did before the war. Bush has managed to
>> >get us in a quagmire and quagmires and not easily gotten out of.
>>
>> Absolute nonsense. Why don't you write to a few of the troops over
>> there and discover what is really happening?
>
>My cousin just returned from over a year there. Explain this nonsense:
>
>1) Fallujah has been abandoned to Sunni fundamentalists who have created
>their own mini-Islamic state;
>
>2) In Ramadi, US troops are contained to a few bunkers and suffer steady
>losses;
>
>3) Further north, around Kirkuk, the northern oil supplies have been
>almost always cut off. Ethnic fighting is on the verge of erupting
>between Sunnis, Turkmen, and Kurds;
>
>4) In Baghdad, the "Green Zone" is rocketed nightly;
>
>5) Shia Muslims in Sadr City (part of Baghdad), Najaf, Karbala, Amarrah,
>Basra, and many other southern cities are in open revolt with heavy
>fighting continuing;
>
>6) Southern oil supplies have just been halted due to the security
>situation. This had caused oil prices to reach an all time high. Have
>you been to the gas station lately?
>
>7) The guy who supplied intelligence information about Saddam's WMDs,
>Ahmed Chalabi, has turned out to be an Iranian spy and has an arrest
>warrant out for him. His relative, Salem Chalabi, who was appointed by
>the US to arrange Saddam's trial, was just charged with murder and has
>an arrest warrant out for him.
>
>I suggest you remove your head from the sand and find out what is really
>happening. More US soldiers died in the month after the so-called
>"Transfer of sovereignty" then died the month before it. Here is a good
>source of info:

When the aircraft carrier flew the 'mission accomplished' banner, that
was a fact. Their mission had been accomplished. You're referring to
the 'end of major combat' which was also a fact. There have been no
Republican Guard tank units defending or attacking since the 'end of
major combat', which, by the way, was a statement requested by General
Franks as a salute to the troops.

There have been more people murdered in the state of Texas since the
'end of major combat' then American deaths in the entire Iraq war.
The same is true of California, so we have had over three times the
Iraqi death rate right here in only two states. Perspective is
important.

The battles for Fallujah, Najaf and Sadr city have been less than
stellar, primarily for political reasons. Now that the Iraqis can
take the heat, those holdouts will also end.

Iraq has more water, more power and is shipping more oil than pre-war
levels. Most schools have been rebuilt and opened. Most children are
attending school, most stores are open and life is back to 'normal'
for many of the Iraqis.

The oil exports have been cut from 1.9 to 1.1 million barrels per day
to a damaged pipeline.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=5919427

Matt Osborn

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 06:38:58 -0400, Jeff <nothing@here.com> wrote:

>In article <tfigh0dut56ag6od9efs6ifm23rf0fi1m9@4ax.com>, Matt Osborn
>wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 18:10:02 -0400, Jeff <nothing@here.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Bush already declared "mission accomplished" over a year ago. Since
>> >then, Congress has willingly approved additional funds. Unfortunately,
>> >Iraq is now in a state of complete chaos and comprises a much greater
>> >threat to US interests then it did before the war. Bush has managed to
>> >get us in a quagmire and quagmires and not easily gotten out of.
>>
>> Absolute nonsense. Why don't you write to a few of the troops over
>> there and discover what is really happening?
>
>My cousin just returned from over a year there. Explain this nonsense:
>
>1) Fallujah has been abandoned to Sunni fundamentalists who have created
>their own mini-Islamic state;
>
>2) In Ramadi, US troops are contained to a few bunkers and suffer steady
>losses;
>
>3) Further north, around Kirkuk, the northern oil supplies have been
>almost always cut off. Ethnic fighting is on the verge of erupting
>between Sunnis, Turkmen, and Kurds;
>
>4) In Baghdad, the "Green Zone" is rocketed nightly;
>
>5) Shia Muslims in Sadr City (part of Baghdad), Najaf, Karbala, Amarrah,
>Basra, and many other southern cities are in open revolt with heavy
>fighting continuing;
>
>6) Southern oil supplies have just been halted due to the security
>situation. This had caused oil prices to reach an all time high. Have
>you been to the gas station lately?
>
>7) The guy who supplied intelligence information about Saddam's WMDs,
>Ahmed Chalabi, has turned out to be an Iranian spy and has an arrest
>warrant out for him. His relative, Salem Chalabi, who was appointed by
>the US to arrange Saddam's trial, was just charged with murder and has
>an arrest warrant out for him.
>
>I suggest you remove your head from the sand and find out what is really
>happening. More US soldiers died in the month after the so-called
>"Transfer of sovereignty" then died the month before it. Here is a good
>source of info:

When the aircraft carrier flew the 'mission accomplished' banner, that
was a fact. Their mission had been accomplished. You're referring to
the 'end of major combat' which was also a fact. There have been no
Republican Guard tank units defending or attacking since the 'end of
major combat', which, by the way, was a statement requested by General
Franks as a salute to the troops.

There have been more people murdered in the state of Texas since the
'end of major combat' then American deaths in the entire Iraq war.
The same is true of California, so we have had over three times the
Iraqi death rate right here in only two states. Perspective is
important.

The battles for Fallujah, Najaf and Sadr city have been less than
stellar, primarily for political reasons. Now that the Iraqis can
take the heat, those holdouts will also end.

Iraq has more water, more power and is shipping more oil than pre-war
levels. Most schools have been rebuilt and opened. Most children are
attending school, most stores are open and life is back to 'normal'
for many of the Iraqis.

The oil exports have been cut from 1.9 to 1.1 million barrels per day
to a damaged pipeline.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=5919427

Matt Osborn

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 06:38:58 -0400, Jeff <nothing@here.com> wrote:

>In article <tfigh0dut56ag6od9efs6ifm23rf0fi1m9@4ax.com>, Matt Osborn
>wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 18:10:02 -0400, Jeff <nothing@here.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Bush already declared "mission accomplished" over a year ago. Since
>> >then, Congress has willingly approved additional funds. Unfortunately,
>> >Iraq is now in a state of complete chaos and comprises a much greater
>> >threat to US interests then it did before the war. Bush has managed to
>> >get us in a quagmire and quagmires and not easily gotten out of.
>>
>> Absolute nonsense. Why don't you write to a few of the troops over
>> there and discover what is really happening?
>
>My cousin just returned from over a year there. Explain this nonsense:
>
>1) Fallujah has been abandoned to Sunni fundamentalists who have created
>their own mini-Islamic state;
>
>2) In Ramadi, US troops are contained to a few bunkers and suffer steady
>losses;
>
>3) Further north, around Kirkuk, the northern oil supplies have been
>almost always cut off. Ethnic fighting is on the verge of erupting
>between Sunnis, Turkmen, and Kurds;
>
>4) In Baghdad, the "Green Zone" is rocketed nightly;
>
>5) Shia Muslims in Sadr City (part of Baghdad), Najaf, Karbala, Amarrah,
>Basra, and many other southern cities are in open revolt with heavy
>fighting continuing;
>
>6) Southern oil supplies have just been halted due to the security
>situation. This had caused oil prices to reach an all time high. Have
>you been to the gas station lately?
>
>7) The guy who supplied intelligence information about Saddam's WMDs,
>Ahmed Chalabi, has turned out to be an Iranian spy and has an arrest
>warrant out for him. His relative, Salem Chalabi, who was appointed by
>the US to arrange Saddam's trial, was just charged with murder and has
>an arrest warrant out for him.
>
>I suggest you remove your head from the sand and find out what is really
>happening. More US soldiers died in the month after the so-called
>"Transfer of sovereignty" then died the month before it. Here is a good
>source of info:

When the aircraft carrier flew the 'mission accomplished' banner, that
was a fact. Their mission had been accomplished. You're referring to
the 'end of major combat' which was also a fact. There have been no
Republican Guard tank units defending or attacking since the 'end of
major combat', which, by the way, was a statement requested by General
Franks as a salute to the troops.

There have been more people murdered in the state of Texas since the
'end of major combat' then American deaths in the entire Iraq war.
The same is true of California, so we have had over three times the
Iraqi death rate right here in only two states. Perspective is
important.

The battles for Fallujah, Najaf and Sadr city have been less than
stellar, primarily for political reasons. Now that the Iraqis can
take the heat, those holdouts will also end.

Iraq has more water, more power and is shipping more oil than pre-war
levels. Most schools have been rebuilt and opened. Most children are
attending school, most stores are open and life is back to 'normal'
for many of the Iraqis.

The oil exports have been cut from 1.9 to 1.1 million barrels per day
to a damaged pipeline.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=5919427

Jeff

In article <61rih0p204f9ls2juva7f1qaojehclojcq@4ax.com>, Matt Osborn
wrote:

> When the aircraft carrier flew the 'mission accomplished' banner, that
> was a fact. Their mission had been accomplished. You're referring to
> the 'end of major combat' which was also a fact. There have been no
> Republican Guard tank units defending or attacking since the 'end of
> major combat', which, by the way, was a statement requested by General
> Franks as a salute to the troops.
>
> There have been more people murdered in the state of Texas since the
> 'end of major combat' then American deaths in the entire Iraq war.
> The same is true of California, so we have had over three times the
> Iraqi death rate right here in only two states. Perspective is
> important.

Hey Matt, this is one of the better efforts at putting lipstick on a pig
that I've seen in some time. A valiant effort indeed. There have also
been more US soldiers killed in Iraq since the "end of major combat
operations", so one wonders what mission was actually accomplished. You
cite statistics in Texas and California. Texas has a population of over
20 million. California has a population of over 34 million. The number
of US soldiers in Iraq is around 138,000. So, if you get per capita
death rates, I'm sure your comparison won't look so rosy. Never mind the
fact that the "low" number of over 900 dead Americans means 900 grieving
families who don't really care how the rate compares to Texas or
California. As you say "perspective is important".



> The battles for Fallujah, Najaf and Sadr city have been less than
> stellar, primarily for political reasons. Now that the Iraqis can
> take the heat, those holdouts will also end.

Today the Iraqi governor of Najaf placed Iraqi police and national guard
units under the command of US forces and gave the Americans permission
to enter the Shrine of Ali, the holiest mosque to Shia muslims. It will
be Americans taking the heat if that happens.

> Iraq has more water, more power and is shipping more oil than pre-war
> levels.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

> Most schools have been rebuilt and opened. Most children are
> attending school, most stores are open and life is back to 'normal'
> for many of the Iraqis.

This is greatly exaggerated. All these things were happening prior to
the war anyway.

> The oil exports have been cut from 1.9 to 1.1 million barrels per day
> to a damaged pipeline.
>
> http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=5919427

Before the war, Iraq exported more than 2 million barrels per day. They
haven't pumped anything the last two days and the only exports were from
storage tanks.

Here is a current report from a reporter who previously was praising the
reconstruction effort:

http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news2/philly3.html

"Most Iraqis aren't seeing the improvements they had hoped for, and
they're not blaming the guerillas - they're blaming the Americans.
Sovereignty seems to have had zero effect on this equation."

"It's now August, and that goal still hasn't been reached. Throughout
much of the country, the power goes off for half the day or more. That
has meant another summer of babies sweltering in 120-degree apartments,
of factories that can't run, of despair turning to hatred."

"A near-total lack of visible progress has prompted even the most
pro-Western Iraqis to lose faith in the capabilities - and worse, the
intentions - of the United States."

Jeff

In article <61rih0p204f9ls2juva7f1qaojehclojcq@4ax.com>, Matt Osborn
wrote:

> When the aircraft carrier flew the 'mission accomplished' banner, that
> was a fact. Their mission had been accomplished. You're referring to
> the 'end of major combat' which was also a fact. There have been no
> Republican Guard tank units defending or attacking since the 'end of
> major combat', which, by the way, was a statement requested by General
> Franks as a salute to the troops.
>
> There have been more people murdered in the state of Texas since the
> 'end of major combat' then American deaths in the entire Iraq war.
> The same is true of California, so we have had over three times the
> Iraqi death rate right here in only two states. Perspective is
> important.

Hey Matt, this is one of the better efforts at putting lipstick on a pig
that I've seen in some time. A valiant effort indeed. There have also
been more US soldiers killed in Iraq since the "end of major combat
operations", so one wonders what mission was actually accomplished. You
cite statistics in Texas and California. Texas has a population of over
20 million. California has a population of over 34 million. The number
of US soldiers in Iraq is around 138,000. So, if you get per capita
death rates, I'm sure your comparison won't look so rosy. Never mind the
fact that the "low" number of over 900 dead Americans means 900 grieving
families who don't really care how the rate compares to Texas or
California. As you say "perspective is important".



> The battles for Fallujah, Najaf and Sadr city have been less than
> stellar, primarily for political reasons. Now that the Iraqis can
> take the heat, those holdouts will also end.

Today the Iraqi governor of Najaf placed Iraqi police and national guard
units under the command of US forces and gave the Americans permission
to enter the Shrine of Ali, the holiest mosque to Shia muslims. It will
be Americans taking the heat if that happens.

> Iraq has more water, more power and is shipping more oil than pre-war
> levels.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

> Most schools have been rebuilt and opened. Most children are
> attending school, most stores are open and life is back to 'normal'
> for many of the Iraqis.

This is greatly exaggerated. All these things were happening prior to
the war anyway.

> The oil exports have been cut from 1.9 to 1.1 million barrels per day
> to a damaged pipeline.
>
> http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=5919427

Before the war, Iraq exported more than 2 million barrels per day. They
haven't pumped anything the last two days and the only exports were from
storage tanks.

Here is a current report from a reporter who previously was praising the
reconstruction effort:

http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news2/philly3.html

"Most Iraqis aren't seeing the improvements they had hoped for, and
they're not blaming the guerillas - they're blaming the Americans.
Sovereignty seems to have had zero effect on this equation."

"It's now August, and that goal still hasn't been reached. Throughout
much of the country, the power goes off for half the day or more. That
has meant another summer of babies sweltering in 120-degree apartments,
of factories that can't run, of despair turning to hatred."

"A near-total lack of visible progress has prompted even the most
pro-Western Iraqis to lose faith in the capabilities - and worse, the
intentions - of the United States."

Jeff

In article <61rih0p204f9ls2juva7f1qaojehclojcq@4ax.com>, Matt Osborn
wrote:

> When the aircraft carrier flew the 'mission accomplished' banner, that
> was a fact. Their mission had been accomplished. You're referring to
> the 'end of major combat' which was also a fact. There have been no
> Republican Guard tank units defending or attacking since the 'end of
> major combat', which, by the way, was a statement requested by General
> Franks as a salute to the troops.
>
> There have been more people murdered in the state of Texas since the
> 'end of major combat' then American deaths in the entire Iraq war.
> The same is true of California, so we have had over three times the
> Iraqi death rate right here in only two states. Perspective is
> important.

Hey Matt, this is one of the better efforts at putting lipstick on a pig
that I've seen in some time. A valiant effort indeed. There have also
been more US soldiers killed in Iraq since the "end of major combat
operations", so one wonders what mission was actually accomplished. You
cite statistics in Texas and California. Texas has a population of over
20 million. California has a population of over 34 million. The number
of US soldiers in Iraq is around 138,000. So, if you get per capita
death rates, I'm sure your comparison won't look so rosy. Never mind the
fact that the "low" number of over 900 dead Americans means 900 grieving
families who don't really care how the rate compares to Texas or
California. As you say "perspective is important".



> The battles for Fallujah, Najaf and Sadr city have been less than
> stellar, primarily for political reasons. Now that the Iraqis can
> take the heat, those holdouts will also end.

Today the Iraqi governor of Najaf placed Iraqi police and national guard
units under the command of US forces and gave the Americans permission
to enter the Shrine of Ali, the holiest mosque to Shia muslims. It will
be Americans taking the heat if that happens.

> Iraq has more water, more power and is shipping more oil than pre-war
> levels.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

> Most schools have been rebuilt and opened. Most children are
> attending school, most stores are open and life is back to 'normal'
> for many of the Iraqis.

This is greatly exaggerated. All these things were happening prior to
the war anyway.

> The oil exports have been cut from 1.9 to 1.1 million barrels per day
> to a damaged pipeline.
>
> http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=5919427

Before the war, Iraq exported more than 2 million barrels per day. They
haven't pumped anything the last two days and the only exports were from
storage tanks.

Here is a current report from a reporter who previously was praising the
reconstruction effort:

http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news2/philly3.html

"Most Iraqis aren't seeing the improvements they had hoped for, and
they're not blaming the guerillas - they're blaming the Americans.
Sovereignty seems to have had zero effect on this equation."

"It's now August, and that goal still hasn't been reached. Throughout
much of the country, the power goes off for half the day or more. That
has meant another summer of babies sweltering in 120-degree apartments,
of factories that can't run, of despair turning to hatred."

"A near-total lack of visible progress has prompted even the most
pro-Western Iraqis to lose faith in the capabilities - and worse, the
intentions - of the United States."