Novak Adapters-Liar, Liar, Pants On Fire!
06-20-2004, 06:45 PM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Novak Adapters-Liar, Liar, Pants On Fire!
Novak Adapters ---- out:
>Diesel Engines
>Diesel engines are a great idea for Jeep swaps. However, they seldom
materialize successfully past the idea stage. The lack of good,
light-duty domestic diesel engines makes these swaps a discouragingly
difficult process. Foreign diesels are usually quite advanced, but are
difficult to find and maintain. If you do manage to install one of
these, US diesel fuels are less refined and have a higher sulphur
content than foreign purposed fuel, and generally incompatible with
foreign designed and produced injectors.
>If you are considering a diesel engine for the sake of novelty, you
may find that it requires more commitment and cash than novelty is
worth. If you are seeking them for fuel economy or efficiency, you may
consider a modern, clean burning fuel-injected gas engine.
Does it have to be spelled out in detail what a crock this all is?
Novak just wants to get you to buy a kit to put in a Chevy like every
other monkey see monkey do idiot out there. That way they sell more
product with no more work. Bottom line they are lazy. Or the family is
controlled by a semi-violent eighty year old patriarch/capo who had a
bad time in WWII and is sporting a stiff for the Japs or Krauts after
all these decades and the kids kiss his ***. I don't know.
Think about the above. Cummins, Cat, and DDA decided in the forties
and fifties to build big diesel engines and leave the sizable market
for small diesels to importers, because being built primarily for
automotive applications, Mercedes Benz, Nissan, Isuzu, and Mitsubishi
could sell industrial derivatives of their AUTOMOTIVE diesels cheaper
than DDA/Cummins/Cat could build them. They found wide------ use in
gensets, Thermo King and Carrier reefer units, small tractors, farm
equipment, Vermeer trenchers, and-because there is a secret huge stash
of perfectly good diesel fuel all over them,it's just marked
"JP-5/Jet-A"-airport ramp equipment of every imaginable type. You have
to be one blind magoo not to see them every day.
This was actually a good business decision. It does mean all the
small diesels are "foreign". If you are, as Novak appears to be, on a
religious crusade against imported products, stop reading now.
If American diesel fuel was no good for all these foreign diesel
engines, why have they been running fine on it for forty-five to fifty
years? Why has no injection or pump shop ever heard of this?
Gas fuel injected engines will never equal the BSFC figures of
diesels, because their compression ratios are still those of gasoline
engines, and worse, they run at full effective compression only at
wide open throttle. Gasoline engines throttle the air supply and
regulate fuel to the air used. Diesel engines receive the full air
charge at all speeds and power settings.This means a diesel has a much
flatter fuel efficiency curve because diesel engines are efficient
from just over idle power (not RPM) to just short of full rack whereas
for a given gasoline engine-its compression ratio,fuel used, cam
timing, and thermal limits on its pistons, cylinder head
structure,valve heads, and spark plugs-peak efficiency is achieved at
only one thermally limited power setting and the curve is asymetric,
but down from there. Above that power setting fuel mixtures must be
substantially under or over stochiometric or the engine will suffer
heat failure. Usually over is chosen, which complicates emission
control as well. Put bluntly, given reasonable gearing choices, you
will always get better fuel mileage from a diesel. The less smooth you
are as a driver-or the rougher the terrain or traffic-the bigger the
delta. (And I drive like a jackrabbit to be honest.)
>Diesel Engines
>Diesel engines are a great idea for Jeep swaps. However, they seldom
materialize successfully past the idea stage. The lack of good,
light-duty domestic diesel engines makes these swaps a discouragingly
difficult process. Foreign diesels are usually quite advanced, but are
difficult to find and maintain. If you do manage to install one of
these, US diesel fuels are less refined and have a higher sulphur
content than foreign purposed fuel, and generally incompatible with
foreign designed and produced injectors.
>If you are considering a diesel engine for the sake of novelty, you
may find that it requires more commitment and cash than novelty is
worth. If you are seeking them for fuel economy or efficiency, you may
consider a modern, clean burning fuel-injected gas engine.
Does it have to be spelled out in detail what a crock this all is?
Novak just wants to get you to buy a kit to put in a Chevy like every
other monkey see monkey do idiot out there. That way they sell more
product with no more work. Bottom line they are lazy. Or the family is
controlled by a semi-violent eighty year old patriarch/capo who had a
bad time in WWII and is sporting a stiff for the Japs or Krauts after
all these decades and the kids kiss his ***. I don't know.
Think about the above. Cummins, Cat, and DDA decided in the forties
and fifties to build big diesel engines and leave the sizable market
for small diesels to importers, because being built primarily for
automotive applications, Mercedes Benz, Nissan, Isuzu, and Mitsubishi
could sell industrial derivatives of their AUTOMOTIVE diesels cheaper
than DDA/Cummins/Cat could build them. They found wide------ use in
gensets, Thermo King and Carrier reefer units, small tractors, farm
equipment, Vermeer trenchers, and-because there is a secret huge stash
of perfectly good diesel fuel all over them,it's just marked
"JP-5/Jet-A"-airport ramp equipment of every imaginable type. You have
to be one blind magoo not to see them every day.
This was actually a good business decision. It does mean all the
small diesels are "foreign". If you are, as Novak appears to be, on a
religious crusade against imported products, stop reading now.
If American diesel fuel was no good for all these foreign diesel
engines, why have they been running fine on it for forty-five to fifty
years? Why has no injection or pump shop ever heard of this?
Gas fuel injected engines will never equal the BSFC figures of
diesels, because their compression ratios are still those of gasoline
engines, and worse, they run at full effective compression only at
wide open throttle. Gasoline engines throttle the air supply and
regulate fuel to the air used. Diesel engines receive the full air
charge at all speeds and power settings.This means a diesel has a much
flatter fuel efficiency curve because diesel engines are efficient
from just over idle power (not RPM) to just short of full rack whereas
for a given gasoline engine-its compression ratio,fuel used, cam
timing, and thermal limits on its pistons, cylinder head
structure,valve heads, and spark plugs-peak efficiency is achieved at
only one thermally limited power setting and the curve is asymetric,
but down from there. Above that power setting fuel mixtures must be
substantially under or over stochiometric or the engine will suffer
heat failure. Usually over is chosen, which complicates emission
control as well. Put bluntly, given reasonable gearing choices, you
will always get better fuel mileage from a diesel. The less smooth you
are as a driver-or the rougher the terrain or traffic-the bigger the
delta. (And I drive like a jackrabbit to be honest.)
06-20-2004, 10:27 PM
#2
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Novak Adapters-Liar, Liar, Pants On Fire!
calcerise@hotmail.com (Cal Cerise) wrote in message
<snip>
>
> Gas fuel injected engines will never equal the BSFC figures of
> diesels, because their compression ratios are still those of gasoline
> engines, and worse, they run at full effective compression only at
> wide open throttle. Gasoline engines throttle the air supply and
> regulate fuel to the air used. Diesel engines receive the full air
> charge at all speeds and power settings.This means a diesel has a much
> flatter fuel efficiency curve because diesel engines are efficient
> from just over idle power (not RPM) to just short of full rack whereas
> for a given gasoline engine-its compression ratio,fuel used, cam
> timing, and thermal limits on its pistons, cylinder head
> structure,valve heads, and spark plugs-peak efficiency is achieved at
> only one thermally limited power setting and the curve is asymetric,
> but down from there. Above that power setting fuel mixtures must be
> substantially under or over stochiometric or the engine will suffer
> heat failure. Usually over is chosen, which complicates emission
> control as well. Put bluntly, given reasonable gearing choices, you
> will always get better fuel mileage from a diesel.
There are other reasons for diesel fuel economy. Each gallon of
diesel fuel contains more BTU's of heat than does a gallon of
gasoline, and as well, diesel fuel costs less in most countries. This
is because the primary demand for fuel is gasoline, and while the
proportions can be adjusted with catalytic cracking, you get a certain
amount of diesel fuel when you make gasoline whether you want it or
not.
If you're going to run a small diesel on jet fuel, you'd better add
lubricant or replace the injection pump with a hardened,
oil-lubricated type or the pump _may_ fail. This is especially true of
kerosene. Pure kerosene (K-1) WILL kill most pumps. Jet-A has a
lubricity spec (which is why burning jet fuel in unvented kerosene
heaters is liable to smoke out the house) but it is not as high as
diesel fuel. Jet-A may or may not exceed this spec, because sometimes
the same fuel is sold as Jet-A and #1 Diesel, and even as home heating
oil. Many people out east run (prechamber) Mercedes diesels on heating
oil, and if you do your own work the shortened injector life usuallly
doesn't quite offset the fuel savings.
Another consideration is that all reasonable small vehicle diesels
are turbocharged today, which means you have plumbing issues to
consider. Engine swaps on turbo engines may involve repositioning the
turbo, fabricating stainless exhaust sections, and installing heat
shields under the hood. Modern engines usually are aftercooled, which
means a lot of pipes. My guess is Novak knows this and figures, based
on his experience, that a lot of his customers are dumb---- rednecks
and he doesn't want to burp and change and feed them via phone. If he
sells them a Chevy kit, he can let their Uncle Cletus clean up the
mess and feign ignorance.
<snip>
>
> Gas fuel injected engines will never equal the BSFC figures of
> diesels, because their compression ratios are still those of gasoline
> engines, and worse, they run at full effective compression only at
> wide open throttle. Gasoline engines throttle the air supply and
> regulate fuel to the air used. Diesel engines receive the full air
> charge at all speeds and power settings.This means a diesel has a much
> flatter fuel efficiency curve because diesel engines are efficient
> from just over idle power (not RPM) to just short of full rack whereas
> for a given gasoline engine-its compression ratio,fuel used, cam
> timing, and thermal limits on its pistons, cylinder head
> structure,valve heads, and spark plugs-peak efficiency is achieved at
> only one thermally limited power setting and the curve is asymetric,
> but down from there. Above that power setting fuel mixtures must be
> substantially under or over stochiometric or the engine will suffer
> heat failure. Usually over is chosen, which complicates emission
> control as well. Put bluntly, given reasonable gearing choices, you
> will always get better fuel mileage from a diesel.
There are other reasons for diesel fuel economy. Each gallon of
diesel fuel contains more BTU's of heat than does a gallon of
gasoline, and as well, diesel fuel costs less in most countries. This
is because the primary demand for fuel is gasoline, and while the
proportions can be adjusted with catalytic cracking, you get a certain
amount of diesel fuel when you make gasoline whether you want it or
not.
If you're going to run a small diesel on jet fuel, you'd better add
lubricant or replace the injection pump with a hardened,
oil-lubricated type or the pump _may_ fail. This is especially true of
kerosene. Pure kerosene (K-1) WILL kill most pumps. Jet-A has a
lubricity spec (which is why burning jet fuel in unvented kerosene
heaters is liable to smoke out the house) but it is not as high as
diesel fuel. Jet-A may or may not exceed this spec, because sometimes
the same fuel is sold as Jet-A and #1 Diesel, and even as home heating
oil. Many people out east run (prechamber) Mercedes diesels on heating
oil, and if you do your own work the shortened injector life usuallly
doesn't quite offset the fuel savings.
Another consideration is that all reasonable small vehicle diesels
are turbocharged today, which means you have plumbing issues to
consider. Engine swaps on turbo engines may involve repositioning the
turbo, fabricating stainless exhaust sections, and installing heat
shields under the hood. Modern engines usually are aftercooled, which
means a lot of pipes. My guess is Novak knows this and figures, based
on his experience, that a lot of his customers are dumb---- rednecks
and he doesn't want to burp and change and feed them via phone. If he
sells them a Chevy kit, he can let their Uncle Cletus clean up the
mess and feign ignorance.
06-20-2004, 10:27 PM
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Novak Adapters-Liar, Liar, Pants On Fire!
calcerise@hotmail.com (Cal Cerise) wrote in message
<snip>
>
> Gas fuel injected engines will never equal the BSFC figures of
> diesels, because their compression ratios are still those of gasoline
> engines, and worse, they run at full effective compression only at
> wide open throttle. Gasoline engines throttle the air supply and
> regulate fuel to the air used. Diesel engines receive the full air
> charge at all speeds and power settings.This means a diesel has a much
> flatter fuel efficiency curve because diesel engines are efficient
> from just over idle power (not RPM) to just short of full rack whereas
> for a given gasoline engine-its compression ratio,fuel used, cam
> timing, and thermal limits on its pistons, cylinder head
> structure,valve heads, and spark plugs-peak efficiency is achieved at
> only one thermally limited power setting and the curve is asymetric,
> but down from there. Above that power setting fuel mixtures must be
> substantially under or over stochiometric or the engine will suffer
> heat failure. Usually over is chosen, which complicates emission
> control as well. Put bluntly, given reasonable gearing choices, you
> will always get better fuel mileage from a diesel.
There are other reasons for diesel fuel economy. Each gallon of
diesel fuel contains more BTU's of heat than does a gallon of
gasoline, and as well, diesel fuel costs less in most countries. This
is because the primary demand for fuel is gasoline, and while the
proportions can be adjusted with catalytic cracking, you get a certain
amount of diesel fuel when you make gasoline whether you want it or
not.
If you're going to run a small diesel on jet fuel, you'd better add
lubricant or replace the injection pump with a hardened,
oil-lubricated type or the pump _may_ fail. This is especially true of
kerosene. Pure kerosene (K-1) WILL kill most pumps. Jet-A has a
lubricity spec (which is why burning jet fuel in unvented kerosene
heaters is liable to smoke out the house) but it is not as high as
diesel fuel. Jet-A may or may not exceed this spec, because sometimes
the same fuel is sold as Jet-A and #1 Diesel, and even as home heating
oil. Many people out east run (prechamber) Mercedes diesels on heating
oil, and if you do your own work the shortened injector life usuallly
doesn't quite offset the fuel savings.
Another consideration is that all reasonable small vehicle diesels
are turbocharged today, which means you have plumbing issues to
consider. Engine swaps on turbo engines may involve repositioning the
turbo, fabricating stainless exhaust sections, and installing heat
shields under the hood. Modern engines usually are aftercooled, which
means a lot of pipes. My guess is Novak knows this and figures, based
on his experience, that a lot of his customers are dumb---- rednecks
and he doesn't want to burp and change and feed them via phone. If he
sells them a Chevy kit, he can let their Uncle Cletus clean up the
mess and feign ignorance.
<snip>
>
> Gas fuel injected engines will never equal the BSFC figures of
> diesels, because their compression ratios are still those of gasoline
> engines, and worse, they run at full effective compression only at
> wide open throttle. Gasoline engines throttle the air supply and
> regulate fuel to the air used. Diesel engines receive the full air
> charge at all speeds and power settings.This means a diesel has a much
> flatter fuel efficiency curve because diesel engines are efficient
> from just over idle power (not RPM) to just short of full rack whereas
> for a given gasoline engine-its compression ratio,fuel used, cam
> timing, and thermal limits on its pistons, cylinder head
> structure,valve heads, and spark plugs-peak efficiency is achieved at
> only one thermally limited power setting and the curve is asymetric,
> but down from there. Above that power setting fuel mixtures must be
> substantially under or over stochiometric or the engine will suffer
> heat failure. Usually over is chosen, which complicates emission
> control as well. Put bluntly, given reasonable gearing choices, you
> will always get better fuel mileage from a diesel.
There are other reasons for diesel fuel economy. Each gallon of
diesel fuel contains more BTU's of heat than does a gallon of
gasoline, and as well, diesel fuel costs less in most countries. This
is because the primary demand for fuel is gasoline, and while the
proportions can be adjusted with catalytic cracking, you get a certain
amount of diesel fuel when you make gasoline whether you want it or
not.
If you're going to run a small diesel on jet fuel, you'd better add
lubricant or replace the injection pump with a hardened,
oil-lubricated type or the pump _may_ fail. This is especially true of
kerosene. Pure kerosene (K-1) WILL kill most pumps. Jet-A has a
lubricity spec (which is why burning jet fuel in unvented kerosene
heaters is liable to smoke out the house) but it is not as high as
diesel fuel. Jet-A may or may not exceed this spec, because sometimes
the same fuel is sold as Jet-A and #1 Diesel, and even as home heating
oil. Many people out east run (prechamber) Mercedes diesels on heating
oil, and if you do your own work the shortened injector life usuallly
doesn't quite offset the fuel savings.
Another consideration is that all reasonable small vehicle diesels
are turbocharged today, which means you have plumbing issues to
consider. Engine swaps on turbo engines may involve repositioning the
turbo, fabricating stainless exhaust sections, and installing heat
shields under the hood. Modern engines usually are aftercooled, which
means a lot of pipes. My guess is Novak knows this and figures, based
on his experience, that a lot of his customers are dumb---- rednecks
and he doesn't want to burp and change and feed them via phone. If he
sells them a Chevy kit, he can let their Uncle Cletus clean up the
mess and feign ignorance.
06-20-2004, 10:27 PM
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Novak Adapters-Liar, Liar, Pants On Fire!
calcerise@hotmail.com (Cal Cerise) wrote in message
<snip>
>
> Gas fuel injected engines will never equal the BSFC figures of
> diesels, because their compression ratios are still those of gasoline
> engines, and worse, they run at full effective compression only at
> wide open throttle. Gasoline engines throttle the air supply and
> regulate fuel to the air used. Diesel engines receive the full air
> charge at all speeds and power settings.This means a diesel has a much
> flatter fuel efficiency curve because diesel engines are efficient
> from just over idle power (not RPM) to just short of full rack whereas
> for a given gasoline engine-its compression ratio,fuel used, cam
> timing, and thermal limits on its pistons, cylinder head
> structure,valve heads, and spark plugs-peak efficiency is achieved at
> only one thermally limited power setting and the curve is asymetric,
> but down from there. Above that power setting fuel mixtures must be
> substantially under or over stochiometric or the engine will suffer
> heat failure. Usually over is chosen, which complicates emission
> control as well. Put bluntly, given reasonable gearing choices, you
> will always get better fuel mileage from a diesel.
There are other reasons for diesel fuel economy. Each gallon of
diesel fuel contains more BTU's of heat than does a gallon of
gasoline, and as well, diesel fuel costs less in most countries. This
is because the primary demand for fuel is gasoline, and while the
proportions can be adjusted with catalytic cracking, you get a certain
amount of diesel fuel when you make gasoline whether you want it or
not.
If you're going to run a small diesel on jet fuel, you'd better add
lubricant or replace the injection pump with a hardened,
oil-lubricated type or the pump _may_ fail. This is especially true of
kerosene. Pure kerosene (K-1) WILL kill most pumps. Jet-A has a
lubricity spec (which is why burning jet fuel in unvented kerosene
heaters is liable to smoke out the house) but it is not as high as
diesel fuel. Jet-A may or may not exceed this spec, because sometimes
the same fuel is sold as Jet-A and #1 Diesel, and even as home heating
oil. Many people out east run (prechamber) Mercedes diesels on heating
oil, and if you do your own work the shortened injector life usuallly
doesn't quite offset the fuel savings.
Another consideration is that all reasonable small vehicle diesels
are turbocharged today, which means you have plumbing issues to
consider. Engine swaps on turbo engines may involve repositioning the
turbo, fabricating stainless exhaust sections, and installing heat
shields under the hood. Modern engines usually are aftercooled, which
means a lot of pipes. My guess is Novak knows this and figures, based
on his experience, that a lot of his customers are dumb---- rednecks
and he doesn't want to burp and change and feed them via phone. If he
sells them a Chevy kit, he can let their Uncle Cletus clean up the
mess and feign ignorance.
<snip>
>
> Gas fuel injected engines will never equal the BSFC figures of
> diesels, because their compression ratios are still those of gasoline
> engines, and worse, they run at full effective compression only at
> wide open throttle. Gasoline engines throttle the air supply and
> regulate fuel to the air used. Diesel engines receive the full air
> charge at all speeds and power settings.This means a diesel has a much
> flatter fuel efficiency curve because diesel engines are efficient
> from just over idle power (not RPM) to just short of full rack whereas
> for a given gasoline engine-its compression ratio,fuel used, cam
> timing, and thermal limits on its pistons, cylinder head
> structure,valve heads, and spark plugs-peak efficiency is achieved at
> only one thermally limited power setting and the curve is asymetric,
> but down from there. Above that power setting fuel mixtures must be
> substantially under or over stochiometric or the engine will suffer
> heat failure. Usually over is chosen, which complicates emission
> control as well. Put bluntly, given reasonable gearing choices, you
> will always get better fuel mileage from a diesel.
There are other reasons for diesel fuel economy. Each gallon of
diesel fuel contains more BTU's of heat than does a gallon of
gasoline, and as well, diesel fuel costs less in most countries. This
is because the primary demand for fuel is gasoline, and while the
proportions can be adjusted with catalytic cracking, you get a certain
amount of diesel fuel when you make gasoline whether you want it or
not.
If you're going to run a small diesel on jet fuel, you'd better add
lubricant or replace the injection pump with a hardened,
oil-lubricated type or the pump _may_ fail. This is especially true of
kerosene. Pure kerosene (K-1) WILL kill most pumps. Jet-A has a
lubricity spec (which is why burning jet fuel in unvented kerosene
heaters is liable to smoke out the house) but it is not as high as
diesel fuel. Jet-A may or may not exceed this spec, because sometimes
the same fuel is sold as Jet-A and #1 Diesel, and even as home heating
oil. Many people out east run (prechamber) Mercedes diesels on heating
oil, and if you do your own work the shortened injector life usuallly
doesn't quite offset the fuel savings.
Another consideration is that all reasonable small vehicle diesels
are turbocharged today, which means you have plumbing issues to
consider. Engine swaps on turbo engines may involve repositioning the
turbo, fabricating stainless exhaust sections, and installing heat
shields under the hood. Modern engines usually are aftercooled, which
means a lot of pipes. My guess is Novak knows this and figures, based
on his experience, that a lot of his customers are dumb---- rednecks
and he doesn't want to burp and change and feed them via phone. If he
sells them a Chevy kit, he can let their Uncle Cletus clean up the
mess and feign ignorance.
06-20-2004, 10:27 PM
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Novak Adapters-Liar, Liar, Pants On Fire!
calcerise@hotmail.com (Cal Cerise) wrote in message
<snip>
>
> Gas fuel injected engines will never equal the BSFC figures of
> diesels, because their compression ratios are still those of gasoline
> engines, and worse, they run at full effective compression only at
> wide open throttle. Gasoline engines throttle the air supply and
> regulate fuel to the air used. Diesel engines receive the full air
> charge at all speeds and power settings.This means a diesel has a much
> flatter fuel efficiency curve because diesel engines are efficient
> from just over idle power (not RPM) to just short of full rack whereas
> for a given gasoline engine-its compression ratio,fuel used, cam
> timing, and thermal limits on its pistons, cylinder head
> structure,valve heads, and spark plugs-peak efficiency is achieved at
> only one thermally limited power setting and the curve is asymetric,
> but down from there. Above that power setting fuel mixtures must be
> substantially under or over stochiometric or the engine will suffer
> heat failure. Usually over is chosen, which complicates emission
> control as well. Put bluntly, given reasonable gearing choices, you
> will always get better fuel mileage from a diesel.
There are other reasons for diesel fuel economy. Each gallon of
diesel fuel contains more BTU's of heat than does a gallon of
gasoline, and as well, diesel fuel costs less in most countries. This
is because the primary demand for fuel is gasoline, and while the
proportions can be adjusted with catalytic cracking, you get a certain
amount of diesel fuel when you make gasoline whether you want it or
not.
If you're going to run a small diesel on jet fuel, you'd better add
lubricant or replace the injection pump with a hardened,
oil-lubricated type or the pump _may_ fail. This is especially true of
kerosene. Pure kerosene (K-1) WILL kill most pumps. Jet-A has a
lubricity spec (which is why burning jet fuel in unvented kerosene
heaters is liable to smoke out the house) but it is not as high as
diesel fuel. Jet-A may or may not exceed this spec, because sometimes
the same fuel is sold as Jet-A and #1 Diesel, and even as home heating
oil. Many people out east run (prechamber) Mercedes diesels on heating
oil, and if you do your own work the shortened injector life usuallly
doesn't quite offset the fuel savings.
Another consideration is that all reasonable small vehicle diesels
are turbocharged today, which means you have plumbing issues to
consider. Engine swaps on turbo engines may involve repositioning the
turbo, fabricating stainless exhaust sections, and installing heat
shields under the hood. Modern engines usually are aftercooled, which
means a lot of pipes. My guess is Novak knows this and figures, based
on his experience, that a lot of his customers are dumb---- rednecks
and he doesn't want to burp and change and feed them via phone. If he
sells them a Chevy kit, he can let their Uncle Cletus clean up the
mess and feign ignorance.
<snip>
>
> Gas fuel injected engines will never equal the BSFC figures of
> diesels, because their compression ratios are still those of gasoline
> engines, and worse, they run at full effective compression only at
> wide open throttle. Gasoline engines throttle the air supply and
> regulate fuel to the air used. Diesel engines receive the full air
> charge at all speeds and power settings.This means a diesel has a much
> flatter fuel efficiency curve because diesel engines are efficient
> from just over idle power (not RPM) to just short of full rack whereas
> for a given gasoline engine-its compression ratio,fuel used, cam
> timing, and thermal limits on its pistons, cylinder head
> structure,valve heads, and spark plugs-peak efficiency is achieved at
> only one thermally limited power setting and the curve is asymetric,
> but down from there. Above that power setting fuel mixtures must be
> substantially under or over stochiometric or the engine will suffer
> heat failure. Usually over is chosen, which complicates emission
> control as well. Put bluntly, given reasonable gearing choices, you
> will always get better fuel mileage from a diesel.
There are other reasons for diesel fuel economy. Each gallon of
diesel fuel contains more BTU's of heat than does a gallon of
gasoline, and as well, diesel fuel costs less in most countries. This
is because the primary demand for fuel is gasoline, and while the
proportions can be adjusted with catalytic cracking, you get a certain
amount of diesel fuel when you make gasoline whether you want it or
not.
If you're going to run a small diesel on jet fuel, you'd better add
lubricant or replace the injection pump with a hardened,
oil-lubricated type or the pump _may_ fail. This is especially true of
kerosene. Pure kerosene (K-1) WILL kill most pumps. Jet-A has a
lubricity spec (which is why burning jet fuel in unvented kerosene
heaters is liable to smoke out the house) but it is not as high as
diesel fuel. Jet-A may or may not exceed this spec, because sometimes
the same fuel is sold as Jet-A and #1 Diesel, and even as home heating
oil. Many people out east run (prechamber) Mercedes diesels on heating
oil, and if you do your own work the shortened injector life usuallly
doesn't quite offset the fuel savings.
Another consideration is that all reasonable small vehicle diesels
are turbocharged today, which means you have plumbing issues to
consider. Engine swaps on turbo engines may involve repositioning the
turbo, fabricating stainless exhaust sections, and installing heat
shields under the hood. Modern engines usually are aftercooled, which
means a lot of pipes. My guess is Novak knows this and figures, based
on his experience, that a lot of his customers are dumb---- rednecks
and he doesn't want to burp and change and feed them via phone. If he
sells them a Chevy kit, he can let their Uncle Cletus clean up the
mess and feign ignorance.
06-21-2004, 02:27 PM
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Novak Adapters-Liar, Liar, Pants On Fire!
I hate to burst your bubble, but the quality of diesel fuel in the US
is remarkably poor compared to, pretty much, the rest of the world.
So those really awesome highly engineered diesel engines sold for the
European market will not run as well as they are intended, and they
have significantly more internal deposits and degradation than had
they been run with the quality fuel they were designed for. That is
not to say, at all, that they will be a poor investment.
Also, diesel engines have historically been heavier than gasoline
engines. This has changed dramatically with better technology, so
they may be close to, or the same weight as a gasoline engine. But
without the quality of fuel they were designed for, don't expect the
same performance or longevity as what they get over in Europe. They
may (I don't know) get better gas mileage even with poorer quality
fuel over here.
And third, to answer the assinine response to your post, live and let
live. Some people like V8's, and love working on them. It's easy to
find parts, stroke them, etc, and they are readily available. Nobody
has a right to tell you the way you build your Jeep is wrong, and it's
childish and obnoxious to lay a blanket stereotype of anyone who
thinks differently than you as a drunken, high school dropout redneck.
Most of those people you just slammed have far more civility,
dignity, kindness, and helpfulness than you just displayed.
If bad mouthing people makes you feel like a real man, get the hell
off this forum.
calcerise@hotmail.com (Cal Cerise) wrote in message news:<a08e01d0.0406201445.1def2f60@posting.google. com>...
> Novak Adapters ---- out:
>
> >Diesel Engines
> >Diesel engines are a great idea for Jeep swaps. However, they seldom
> materialize successfully past the idea stage. The lack of good,
> light-duty domestic diesel engines makes these swaps a discouragingly
> difficult process. Foreign diesels are usually quite advanced, but are
> difficult to find and maintain. If you do manage to install one of
> these, US diesel fuels are less refined and have a higher sulphur
> content than foreign purposed fuel, and generally incompatible with
> foreign designed and produced injectors.
>
> >If you are considering a diesel engine for the sake of novelty, you
> may find that it requires more commitment and cash than novelty is
> worth. If you are seeking them for fuel economy or efficiency, you may
> consider a modern, clean burning fuel-injected gas engine.
>
>
>
> Does it have to be spelled out in detail what a crock this all is?
>
> Novak just wants to get you to buy a kit to put in a Chevy like every
> other monkey see monkey do idiot out there. That way they sell more
> product with no more work. Bottom line they are lazy. Or the family is
> controlled by a semi-violent eighty year old patriarch/capo who had a
> bad time in WWII and is sporting a stiff for the Japs or Krauts after
> all these decades and the kids kiss his ***. I don't know.
>
> Think about the above. Cummins, Cat, and DDA decided in the forties
> and fifties to build big diesel engines and leave the sizable market
> for small diesels to importers, because being built primarily for
> automotive applications, Mercedes Benz, Nissan, Isuzu, and Mitsubishi
> could sell industrial derivatives of their AUTOMOTIVE diesels cheaper
> than DDA/Cummins/Cat could build them. They found wide------ use in
> gensets, Thermo King and Carrier reefer units, small tractors, farm
> equipment, Vermeer trenchers, and-because there is a secret huge stash
> of perfectly good diesel fuel all over them,it's just marked
> "JP-5/Jet-A"-airport ramp equipment of every imaginable type. You have
> to be one blind magoo not to see them every day.
> This was actually a good business decision. It does mean all the
> small diesels are "foreign". If you are, as Novak appears to be, on a
> religious crusade against imported products, stop reading now.
>
> If American diesel fuel was no good for all these foreign diesel
> engines, why have they been running fine on it for forty-five to fifty
> years? Why has no injection or pump shop ever heard of this?
>
> Gas fuel injected engines will never equal the BSFC figures of
> diesels, because their compression ratios are still those of gasoline
> engines, and worse, they run at full effective compression only at
> wide open throttle. Gasoline engines throttle the air supply and
> regulate fuel to the air used. Diesel engines receive the full air
> charge at all speeds and power settings.This means a diesel has a much
> flatter fuel efficiency curve because diesel engines are efficient
> from just over idle power (not RPM) to just short of full rack whereas
> for a given gasoline engine-its compression ratio,fuel used, cam
> timing, and thermal limits on its pistons, cylinder head
> structure,valve heads, and spark plugs-peak efficiency is achieved at
> only one thermally limited power setting and the curve is asymetric,
> but down from there. Above that power setting fuel mixtures must be
> substantially under or over stochiometric or the engine will suffer
> heat failure. Usually over is chosen, which complicates emission
> control as well. Put bluntly, given reasonable gearing choices, you
> will always get better fuel mileage from a diesel. The less smooth you
> are as a driver-or the rougher the terrain or traffic-the bigger the
> delta. (And I drive like a jackrabbit to be honest.)
is remarkably poor compared to, pretty much, the rest of the world.
So those really awesome highly engineered diesel engines sold for the
European market will not run as well as they are intended, and they
have significantly more internal deposits and degradation than had
they been run with the quality fuel they were designed for. That is
not to say, at all, that they will be a poor investment.
Also, diesel engines have historically been heavier than gasoline
engines. This has changed dramatically with better technology, so
they may be close to, or the same weight as a gasoline engine. But
without the quality of fuel they were designed for, don't expect the
same performance or longevity as what they get over in Europe. They
may (I don't know) get better gas mileage even with poorer quality
fuel over here.
And third, to answer the assinine response to your post, live and let
live. Some people like V8's, and love working on them. It's easy to
find parts, stroke them, etc, and they are readily available. Nobody
has a right to tell you the way you build your Jeep is wrong, and it's
childish and obnoxious to lay a blanket stereotype of anyone who
thinks differently than you as a drunken, high school dropout redneck.
Most of those people you just slammed have far more civility,
dignity, kindness, and helpfulness than you just displayed.
If bad mouthing people makes you feel like a real man, get the hell
off this forum.
calcerise@hotmail.com (Cal Cerise) wrote in message news:<a08e01d0.0406201445.1def2f60@posting.google. com>...
> Novak Adapters ---- out:
>
> >Diesel Engines
> >Diesel engines are a great idea for Jeep swaps. However, they seldom
> materialize successfully past the idea stage. The lack of good,
> light-duty domestic diesel engines makes these swaps a discouragingly
> difficult process. Foreign diesels are usually quite advanced, but are
> difficult to find and maintain. If you do manage to install one of
> these, US diesel fuels are less refined and have a higher sulphur
> content than foreign purposed fuel, and generally incompatible with
> foreign designed and produced injectors.
>
> >If you are considering a diesel engine for the sake of novelty, you
> may find that it requires more commitment and cash than novelty is
> worth. If you are seeking them for fuel economy or efficiency, you may
> consider a modern, clean burning fuel-injected gas engine.
>
>
>
> Does it have to be spelled out in detail what a crock this all is?
>
> Novak just wants to get you to buy a kit to put in a Chevy like every
> other monkey see monkey do idiot out there. That way they sell more
> product with no more work. Bottom line they are lazy. Or the family is
> controlled by a semi-violent eighty year old patriarch/capo who had a
> bad time in WWII and is sporting a stiff for the Japs or Krauts after
> all these decades and the kids kiss his ***. I don't know.
>
> Think about the above. Cummins, Cat, and DDA decided in the forties
> and fifties to build big diesel engines and leave the sizable market
> for small diesels to importers, because being built primarily for
> automotive applications, Mercedes Benz, Nissan, Isuzu, and Mitsubishi
> could sell industrial derivatives of their AUTOMOTIVE diesels cheaper
> than DDA/Cummins/Cat could build them. They found wide------ use in
> gensets, Thermo King and Carrier reefer units, small tractors, farm
> equipment, Vermeer trenchers, and-because there is a secret huge stash
> of perfectly good diesel fuel all over them,it's just marked
> "JP-5/Jet-A"-airport ramp equipment of every imaginable type. You have
> to be one blind magoo not to see them every day.
> This was actually a good business decision. It does mean all the
> small diesels are "foreign". If you are, as Novak appears to be, on a
> religious crusade against imported products, stop reading now.
>
> If American diesel fuel was no good for all these foreign diesel
> engines, why have they been running fine on it for forty-five to fifty
> years? Why has no injection or pump shop ever heard of this?
>
> Gas fuel injected engines will never equal the BSFC figures of
> diesels, because their compression ratios are still those of gasoline
> engines, and worse, they run at full effective compression only at
> wide open throttle. Gasoline engines throttle the air supply and
> regulate fuel to the air used. Diesel engines receive the full air
> charge at all speeds and power settings.This means a diesel has a much
> flatter fuel efficiency curve because diesel engines are efficient
> from just over idle power (not RPM) to just short of full rack whereas
> for a given gasoline engine-its compression ratio,fuel used, cam
> timing, and thermal limits on its pistons, cylinder head
> structure,valve heads, and spark plugs-peak efficiency is achieved at
> only one thermally limited power setting and the curve is asymetric,
> but down from there. Above that power setting fuel mixtures must be
> substantially under or over stochiometric or the engine will suffer
> heat failure. Usually over is chosen, which complicates emission
> control as well. Put bluntly, given reasonable gearing choices, you
> will always get better fuel mileage from a diesel. The less smooth you
> are as a driver-or the rougher the terrain or traffic-the bigger the
> delta. (And I drive like a jackrabbit to be honest.)
06-21-2004, 02:27 PM
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Novak Adapters-Liar, Liar, Pants On Fire!
I hate to burst your bubble, but the quality of diesel fuel in the US
is remarkably poor compared to, pretty much, the rest of the world.
So those really awesome highly engineered diesel engines sold for the
European market will not run as well as they are intended, and they
have significantly more internal deposits and degradation than had
they been run with the quality fuel they were designed for. That is
not to say, at all, that they will be a poor investment.
Also, diesel engines have historically been heavier than gasoline
engines. This has changed dramatically with better technology, so
they may be close to, or the same weight as a gasoline engine. But
without the quality of fuel they were designed for, don't expect the
same performance or longevity as what they get over in Europe. They
may (I don't know) get better gas mileage even with poorer quality
fuel over here.
And third, to answer the assinine response to your post, live and let
live. Some people like V8's, and love working on them. It's easy to
find parts, stroke them, etc, and they are readily available. Nobody
has a right to tell you the way you build your Jeep is wrong, and it's
childish and obnoxious to lay a blanket stereotype of anyone who
thinks differently than you as a drunken, high school dropout redneck.
Most of those people you just slammed have far more civility,
dignity, kindness, and helpfulness than you just displayed.
If bad mouthing people makes you feel like a real man, get the hell
off this forum.
calcerise@hotmail.com (Cal Cerise) wrote in message news:<a08e01d0.0406201445.1def2f60@posting.google. com>...
> Novak Adapters ---- out:
>
> >Diesel Engines
> >Diesel engines are a great idea for Jeep swaps. However, they seldom
> materialize successfully past the idea stage. The lack of good,
> light-duty domestic diesel engines makes these swaps a discouragingly
> difficult process. Foreign diesels are usually quite advanced, but are
> difficult to find and maintain. If you do manage to install one of
> these, US diesel fuels are less refined and have a higher sulphur
> content than foreign purposed fuel, and generally incompatible with
> foreign designed and produced injectors.
>
> >If you are considering a diesel engine for the sake of novelty, you
> may find that it requires more commitment and cash than novelty is
> worth. If you are seeking them for fuel economy or efficiency, you may
> consider a modern, clean burning fuel-injected gas engine.
>
>
>
> Does it have to be spelled out in detail what a crock this all is?
>
> Novak just wants to get you to buy a kit to put in a Chevy like every
> other monkey see monkey do idiot out there. That way they sell more
> product with no more work. Bottom line they are lazy. Or the family is
> controlled by a semi-violent eighty year old patriarch/capo who had a
> bad time in WWII and is sporting a stiff for the Japs or Krauts after
> all these decades and the kids kiss his ***. I don't know.
>
> Think about the above. Cummins, Cat, and DDA decided in the forties
> and fifties to build big diesel engines and leave the sizable market
> for small diesels to importers, because being built primarily for
> automotive applications, Mercedes Benz, Nissan, Isuzu, and Mitsubishi
> could sell industrial derivatives of their AUTOMOTIVE diesels cheaper
> than DDA/Cummins/Cat could build them. They found wide------ use in
> gensets, Thermo King and Carrier reefer units, small tractors, farm
> equipment, Vermeer trenchers, and-because there is a secret huge stash
> of perfectly good diesel fuel all over them,it's just marked
> "JP-5/Jet-A"-airport ramp equipment of every imaginable type. You have
> to be one blind magoo not to see them every day.
> This was actually a good business decision. It does mean all the
> small diesels are "foreign". If you are, as Novak appears to be, on a
> religious crusade against imported products, stop reading now.
>
> If American diesel fuel was no good for all these foreign diesel
> engines, why have they been running fine on it for forty-five to fifty
> years? Why has no injection or pump shop ever heard of this?
>
> Gas fuel injected engines will never equal the BSFC figures of
> diesels, because their compression ratios are still those of gasoline
> engines, and worse, they run at full effective compression only at
> wide open throttle. Gasoline engines throttle the air supply and
> regulate fuel to the air used. Diesel engines receive the full air
> charge at all speeds and power settings.This means a diesel has a much
> flatter fuel efficiency curve because diesel engines are efficient
> from just over idle power (not RPM) to just short of full rack whereas
> for a given gasoline engine-its compression ratio,fuel used, cam
> timing, and thermal limits on its pistons, cylinder head
> structure,valve heads, and spark plugs-peak efficiency is achieved at
> only one thermally limited power setting and the curve is asymetric,
> but down from there. Above that power setting fuel mixtures must be
> substantially under or over stochiometric or the engine will suffer
> heat failure. Usually over is chosen, which complicates emission
> control as well. Put bluntly, given reasonable gearing choices, you
> will always get better fuel mileage from a diesel. The less smooth you
> are as a driver-or the rougher the terrain or traffic-the bigger the
> delta. (And I drive like a jackrabbit to be honest.)
is remarkably poor compared to, pretty much, the rest of the world.
So those really awesome highly engineered diesel engines sold for the
European market will not run as well as they are intended, and they
have significantly more internal deposits and degradation than had
they been run with the quality fuel they were designed for. That is
not to say, at all, that they will be a poor investment.
Also, diesel engines have historically been heavier than gasoline
engines. This has changed dramatically with better technology, so
they may be close to, or the same weight as a gasoline engine. But
without the quality of fuel they were designed for, don't expect the
same performance or longevity as what they get over in Europe. They
may (I don't know) get better gas mileage even with poorer quality
fuel over here.
And third, to answer the assinine response to your post, live and let
live. Some people like V8's, and love working on them. It's easy to
find parts, stroke them, etc, and they are readily available. Nobody
has a right to tell you the way you build your Jeep is wrong, and it's
childish and obnoxious to lay a blanket stereotype of anyone who
thinks differently than you as a drunken, high school dropout redneck.
Most of those people you just slammed have far more civility,
dignity, kindness, and helpfulness than you just displayed.
If bad mouthing people makes you feel like a real man, get the hell
off this forum.
calcerise@hotmail.com (Cal Cerise) wrote in message news:<a08e01d0.0406201445.1def2f60@posting.google. com>...
> Novak Adapters ---- out:
>
> >Diesel Engines
> >Diesel engines are a great idea for Jeep swaps. However, they seldom
> materialize successfully past the idea stage. The lack of good,
> light-duty domestic diesel engines makes these swaps a discouragingly
> difficult process. Foreign diesels are usually quite advanced, but are
> difficult to find and maintain. If you do manage to install one of
> these, US diesel fuels are less refined and have a higher sulphur
> content than foreign purposed fuel, and generally incompatible with
> foreign designed and produced injectors.
>
> >If you are considering a diesel engine for the sake of novelty, you
> may find that it requires more commitment and cash than novelty is
> worth. If you are seeking them for fuel economy or efficiency, you may
> consider a modern, clean burning fuel-injected gas engine.
>
>
>
> Does it have to be spelled out in detail what a crock this all is?
>
> Novak just wants to get you to buy a kit to put in a Chevy like every
> other monkey see monkey do idiot out there. That way they sell more
> product with no more work. Bottom line they are lazy. Or the family is
> controlled by a semi-violent eighty year old patriarch/capo who had a
> bad time in WWII and is sporting a stiff for the Japs or Krauts after
> all these decades and the kids kiss his ***. I don't know.
>
> Think about the above. Cummins, Cat, and DDA decided in the forties
> and fifties to build big diesel engines and leave the sizable market
> for small diesels to importers, because being built primarily for
> automotive applications, Mercedes Benz, Nissan, Isuzu, and Mitsubishi
> could sell industrial derivatives of their AUTOMOTIVE diesels cheaper
> than DDA/Cummins/Cat could build them. They found wide------ use in
> gensets, Thermo King and Carrier reefer units, small tractors, farm
> equipment, Vermeer trenchers, and-because there is a secret huge stash
> of perfectly good diesel fuel all over them,it's just marked
> "JP-5/Jet-A"-airport ramp equipment of every imaginable type. You have
> to be one blind magoo not to see them every day.
> This was actually a good business decision. It does mean all the
> small diesels are "foreign". If you are, as Novak appears to be, on a
> religious crusade against imported products, stop reading now.
>
> If American diesel fuel was no good for all these foreign diesel
> engines, why have they been running fine on it for forty-five to fifty
> years? Why has no injection or pump shop ever heard of this?
>
> Gas fuel injected engines will never equal the BSFC figures of
> diesels, because their compression ratios are still those of gasoline
> engines, and worse, they run at full effective compression only at
> wide open throttle. Gasoline engines throttle the air supply and
> regulate fuel to the air used. Diesel engines receive the full air
> charge at all speeds and power settings.This means a diesel has a much
> flatter fuel efficiency curve because diesel engines are efficient
> from just over idle power (not RPM) to just short of full rack whereas
> for a given gasoline engine-its compression ratio,fuel used, cam
> timing, and thermal limits on its pistons, cylinder head
> structure,valve heads, and spark plugs-peak efficiency is achieved at
> only one thermally limited power setting and the curve is asymetric,
> but down from there. Above that power setting fuel mixtures must be
> substantially under or over stochiometric or the engine will suffer
> heat failure. Usually over is chosen, which complicates emission
> control as well. Put bluntly, given reasonable gearing choices, you
> will always get better fuel mileage from a diesel. The less smooth you
> are as a driver-or the rougher the terrain or traffic-the bigger the
> delta. (And I drive like a jackrabbit to be honest.)
06-21-2004, 02:27 PM
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Novak Adapters-Liar, Liar, Pants On Fire!
I hate to burst your bubble, but the quality of diesel fuel in the US
is remarkably poor compared to, pretty much, the rest of the world.
So those really awesome highly engineered diesel engines sold for the
European market will not run as well as they are intended, and they
have significantly more internal deposits and degradation than had
they been run with the quality fuel they were designed for. That is
not to say, at all, that they will be a poor investment.
Also, diesel engines have historically been heavier than gasoline
engines. This has changed dramatically with better technology, so
they may be close to, or the same weight as a gasoline engine. But
without the quality of fuel they were designed for, don't expect the
same performance or longevity as what they get over in Europe. They
may (I don't know) get better gas mileage even with poorer quality
fuel over here.
And third, to answer the assinine response to your post, live and let
live. Some people like V8's, and love working on them. It's easy to
find parts, stroke them, etc, and they are readily available. Nobody
has a right to tell you the way you build your Jeep is wrong, and it's
childish and obnoxious to lay a blanket stereotype of anyone who
thinks differently than you as a drunken, high school dropout redneck.
Most of those people you just slammed have far more civility,
dignity, kindness, and helpfulness than you just displayed.
If bad mouthing people makes you feel like a real man, get the hell
off this forum.
calcerise@hotmail.com (Cal Cerise) wrote in message news:<a08e01d0.0406201445.1def2f60@posting.google. com>...
> Novak Adapters ---- out:
>
> >Diesel Engines
> >Diesel engines are a great idea for Jeep swaps. However, they seldom
> materialize successfully past the idea stage. The lack of good,
> light-duty domestic diesel engines makes these swaps a discouragingly
> difficult process. Foreign diesels are usually quite advanced, but are
> difficult to find and maintain. If you do manage to install one of
> these, US diesel fuels are less refined and have a higher sulphur
> content than foreign purposed fuel, and generally incompatible with
> foreign designed and produced injectors.
>
> >If you are considering a diesel engine for the sake of novelty, you
> may find that it requires more commitment and cash than novelty is
> worth. If you are seeking them for fuel economy or efficiency, you may
> consider a modern, clean burning fuel-injected gas engine.
>
>
>
> Does it have to be spelled out in detail what a crock this all is?
>
> Novak just wants to get you to buy a kit to put in a Chevy like every
> other monkey see monkey do idiot out there. That way they sell more
> product with no more work. Bottom line they are lazy. Or the family is
> controlled by a semi-violent eighty year old patriarch/capo who had a
> bad time in WWII and is sporting a stiff for the Japs or Krauts after
> all these decades and the kids kiss his ***. I don't know.
>
> Think about the above. Cummins, Cat, and DDA decided in the forties
> and fifties to build big diesel engines and leave the sizable market
> for small diesels to importers, because being built primarily for
> automotive applications, Mercedes Benz, Nissan, Isuzu, and Mitsubishi
> could sell industrial derivatives of their AUTOMOTIVE diesels cheaper
> than DDA/Cummins/Cat could build them. They found wide------ use in
> gensets, Thermo King and Carrier reefer units, small tractors, farm
> equipment, Vermeer trenchers, and-because there is a secret huge stash
> of perfectly good diesel fuel all over them,it's just marked
> "JP-5/Jet-A"-airport ramp equipment of every imaginable type. You have
> to be one blind magoo not to see them every day.
> This was actually a good business decision. It does mean all the
> small diesels are "foreign". If you are, as Novak appears to be, on a
> religious crusade against imported products, stop reading now.
>
> If American diesel fuel was no good for all these foreign diesel
> engines, why have they been running fine on it for forty-five to fifty
> years? Why has no injection or pump shop ever heard of this?
>
> Gas fuel injected engines will never equal the BSFC figures of
> diesels, because their compression ratios are still those of gasoline
> engines, and worse, they run at full effective compression only at
> wide open throttle. Gasoline engines throttle the air supply and
> regulate fuel to the air used. Diesel engines receive the full air
> charge at all speeds and power settings.This means a diesel has a much
> flatter fuel efficiency curve because diesel engines are efficient
> from just over idle power (not RPM) to just short of full rack whereas
> for a given gasoline engine-its compression ratio,fuel used, cam
> timing, and thermal limits on its pistons, cylinder head
> structure,valve heads, and spark plugs-peak efficiency is achieved at
> only one thermally limited power setting and the curve is asymetric,
> but down from there. Above that power setting fuel mixtures must be
> substantially under or over stochiometric or the engine will suffer
> heat failure. Usually over is chosen, which complicates emission
> control as well. Put bluntly, given reasonable gearing choices, you
> will always get better fuel mileage from a diesel. The less smooth you
> are as a driver-or the rougher the terrain or traffic-the bigger the
> delta. (And I drive like a jackrabbit to be honest.)
is remarkably poor compared to, pretty much, the rest of the world.
So those really awesome highly engineered diesel engines sold for the
European market will not run as well as they are intended, and they
have significantly more internal deposits and degradation than had
they been run with the quality fuel they were designed for. That is
not to say, at all, that they will be a poor investment.
Also, diesel engines have historically been heavier than gasoline
engines. This has changed dramatically with better technology, so
they may be close to, or the same weight as a gasoline engine. But
without the quality of fuel they were designed for, don't expect the
same performance or longevity as what they get over in Europe. They
may (I don't know) get better gas mileage even with poorer quality
fuel over here.
And third, to answer the assinine response to your post, live and let
live. Some people like V8's, and love working on them. It's easy to
find parts, stroke them, etc, and they are readily available. Nobody
has a right to tell you the way you build your Jeep is wrong, and it's
childish and obnoxious to lay a blanket stereotype of anyone who
thinks differently than you as a drunken, high school dropout redneck.
Most of those people you just slammed have far more civility,
dignity, kindness, and helpfulness than you just displayed.
If bad mouthing people makes you feel like a real man, get the hell
off this forum.
calcerise@hotmail.com (Cal Cerise) wrote in message news:<a08e01d0.0406201445.1def2f60@posting.google. com>...
> Novak Adapters ---- out:
>
> >Diesel Engines
> >Diesel engines are a great idea for Jeep swaps. However, they seldom
> materialize successfully past the idea stage. The lack of good,
> light-duty domestic diesel engines makes these swaps a discouragingly
> difficult process. Foreign diesels are usually quite advanced, but are
> difficult to find and maintain. If you do manage to install one of
> these, US diesel fuels are less refined and have a higher sulphur
> content than foreign purposed fuel, and generally incompatible with
> foreign designed and produced injectors.
>
> >If you are considering a diesel engine for the sake of novelty, you
> may find that it requires more commitment and cash than novelty is
> worth. If you are seeking them for fuel economy or efficiency, you may
> consider a modern, clean burning fuel-injected gas engine.
>
>
>
> Does it have to be spelled out in detail what a crock this all is?
>
> Novak just wants to get you to buy a kit to put in a Chevy like every
> other monkey see monkey do idiot out there. That way they sell more
> product with no more work. Bottom line they are lazy. Or the family is
> controlled by a semi-violent eighty year old patriarch/capo who had a
> bad time in WWII and is sporting a stiff for the Japs or Krauts after
> all these decades and the kids kiss his ***. I don't know.
>
> Think about the above. Cummins, Cat, and DDA decided in the forties
> and fifties to build big diesel engines and leave the sizable market
> for small diesels to importers, because being built primarily for
> automotive applications, Mercedes Benz, Nissan, Isuzu, and Mitsubishi
> could sell industrial derivatives of their AUTOMOTIVE diesels cheaper
> than DDA/Cummins/Cat could build them. They found wide------ use in
> gensets, Thermo King and Carrier reefer units, small tractors, farm
> equipment, Vermeer trenchers, and-because there is a secret huge stash
> of perfectly good diesel fuel all over them,it's just marked
> "JP-5/Jet-A"-airport ramp equipment of every imaginable type. You have
> to be one blind magoo not to see them every day.
> This was actually a good business decision. It does mean all the
> small diesels are "foreign". If you are, as Novak appears to be, on a
> religious crusade against imported products, stop reading now.
>
> If American diesel fuel was no good for all these foreign diesel
> engines, why have they been running fine on it for forty-five to fifty
> years? Why has no injection or pump shop ever heard of this?
>
> Gas fuel injected engines will never equal the BSFC figures of
> diesels, because their compression ratios are still those of gasoline
> engines, and worse, they run at full effective compression only at
> wide open throttle. Gasoline engines throttle the air supply and
> regulate fuel to the air used. Diesel engines receive the full air
> charge at all speeds and power settings.This means a diesel has a much
> flatter fuel efficiency curve because diesel engines are efficient
> from just over idle power (not RPM) to just short of full rack whereas
> for a given gasoline engine-its compression ratio,fuel used, cam
> timing, and thermal limits on its pistons, cylinder head
> structure,valve heads, and spark plugs-peak efficiency is achieved at
> only one thermally limited power setting and the curve is asymetric,
> but down from there. Above that power setting fuel mixtures must be
> substantially under or over stochiometric or the engine will suffer
> heat failure. Usually over is chosen, which complicates emission
> control as well. Put bluntly, given reasonable gearing choices, you
> will always get better fuel mileage from a diesel. The less smooth you
> are as a driver-or the rougher the terrain or traffic-the bigger the
> delta. (And I drive like a jackrabbit to be honest.)
06-21-2004, 02:27 PM
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Novak Adapters-Liar, Liar, Pants On Fire!
I hate to burst your bubble, but the quality of diesel fuel in the US
is remarkably poor compared to, pretty much, the rest of the world.
So those really awesome highly engineered diesel engines sold for the
European market will not run as well as they are intended, and they
have significantly more internal deposits and degradation than had
they been run with the quality fuel they were designed for. That is
not to say, at all, that they will be a poor investment.
Also, diesel engines have historically been heavier than gasoline
engines. This has changed dramatically with better technology, so
they may be close to, or the same weight as a gasoline engine. But
without the quality of fuel they were designed for, don't expect the
same performance or longevity as what they get over in Europe. They
may (I don't know) get better gas mileage even with poorer quality
fuel over here.
And third, to answer the assinine response to your post, live and let
live. Some people like V8's, and love working on them. It's easy to
find parts, stroke them, etc, and they are readily available. Nobody
has a right to tell you the way you build your Jeep is wrong, and it's
childish and obnoxious to lay a blanket stereotype of anyone who
thinks differently than you as a drunken, high school dropout redneck.
Most of those people you just slammed have far more civility,
dignity, kindness, and helpfulness than you just displayed.
If bad mouthing people makes you feel like a real man, get the hell
off this forum.
calcerise@hotmail.com (Cal Cerise) wrote in message news:<a08e01d0.0406201445.1def2f60@posting.google. com>...
> Novak Adapters ---- out:
>
> >Diesel Engines
> >Diesel engines are a great idea for Jeep swaps. However, they seldom
> materialize successfully past the idea stage. The lack of good,
> light-duty domestic diesel engines makes these swaps a discouragingly
> difficult process. Foreign diesels are usually quite advanced, but are
> difficult to find and maintain. If you do manage to install one of
> these, US diesel fuels are less refined and have a higher sulphur
> content than foreign purposed fuel, and generally incompatible with
> foreign designed and produced injectors.
>
> >If you are considering a diesel engine for the sake of novelty, you
> may find that it requires more commitment and cash than novelty is
> worth. If you are seeking them for fuel economy or efficiency, you may
> consider a modern, clean burning fuel-injected gas engine.
>
>
>
> Does it have to be spelled out in detail what a crock this all is?
>
> Novak just wants to get you to buy a kit to put in a Chevy like every
> other monkey see monkey do idiot out there. That way they sell more
> product with no more work. Bottom line they are lazy. Or the family is
> controlled by a semi-violent eighty year old patriarch/capo who had a
> bad time in WWII and is sporting a stiff for the Japs or Krauts after
> all these decades and the kids kiss his ***. I don't know.
>
> Think about the above. Cummins, Cat, and DDA decided in the forties
> and fifties to build big diesel engines and leave the sizable market
> for small diesels to importers, because being built primarily for
> automotive applications, Mercedes Benz, Nissan, Isuzu, and Mitsubishi
> could sell industrial derivatives of their AUTOMOTIVE diesels cheaper
> than DDA/Cummins/Cat could build them. They found wide------ use in
> gensets, Thermo King and Carrier reefer units, small tractors, farm
> equipment, Vermeer trenchers, and-because there is a secret huge stash
> of perfectly good diesel fuel all over them,it's just marked
> "JP-5/Jet-A"-airport ramp equipment of every imaginable type. You have
> to be one blind magoo not to see them every day.
> This was actually a good business decision. It does mean all the
> small diesels are "foreign". If you are, as Novak appears to be, on a
> religious crusade against imported products, stop reading now.
>
> If American diesel fuel was no good for all these foreign diesel
> engines, why have they been running fine on it for forty-five to fifty
> years? Why has no injection or pump shop ever heard of this?
>
> Gas fuel injected engines will never equal the BSFC figures of
> diesels, because their compression ratios are still those of gasoline
> engines, and worse, they run at full effective compression only at
> wide open throttle. Gasoline engines throttle the air supply and
> regulate fuel to the air used. Diesel engines receive the full air
> charge at all speeds and power settings.This means a diesel has a much
> flatter fuel efficiency curve because diesel engines are efficient
> from just over idle power (not RPM) to just short of full rack whereas
> for a given gasoline engine-its compression ratio,fuel used, cam
> timing, and thermal limits on its pistons, cylinder head
> structure,valve heads, and spark plugs-peak efficiency is achieved at
> only one thermally limited power setting and the curve is asymetric,
> but down from there. Above that power setting fuel mixtures must be
> substantially under or over stochiometric or the engine will suffer
> heat failure. Usually over is chosen, which complicates emission
> control as well. Put bluntly, given reasonable gearing choices, you
> will always get better fuel mileage from a diesel. The less smooth you
> are as a driver-or the rougher the terrain or traffic-the bigger the
> delta. (And I drive like a jackrabbit to be honest.)
is remarkably poor compared to, pretty much, the rest of the world.
So those really awesome highly engineered diesel engines sold for the
European market will not run as well as they are intended, and they
have significantly more internal deposits and degradation than had
they been run with the quality fuel they were designed for. That is
not to say, at all, that they will be a poor investment.
Also, diesel engines have historically been heavier than gasoline
engines. This has changed dramatically with better technology, so
they may be close to, or the same weight as a gasoline engine. But
without the quality of fuel they were designed for, don't expect the
same performance or longevity as what they get over in Europe. They
may (I don't know) get better gas mileage even with poorer quality
fuel over here.
And third, to answer the assinine response to your post, live and let
live. Some people like V8's, and love working on them. It's easy to
find parts, stroke them, etc, and they are readily available. Nobody
has a right to tell you the way you build your Jeep is wrong, and it's
childish and obnoxious to lay a blanket stereotype of anyone who
thinks differently than you as a drunken, high school dropout redneck.
Most of those people you just slammed have far more civility,
dignity, kindness, and helpfulness than you just displayed.
If bad mouthing people makes you feel like a real man, get the hell
off this forum.
calcerise@hotmail.com (Cal Cerise) wrote in message news:<a08e01d0.0406201445.1def2f60@posting.google. com>...
> Novak Adapters ---- out:
>
> >Diesel Engines
> >Diesel engines are a great idea for Jeep swaps. However, they seldom
> materialize successfully past the idea stage. The lack of good,
> light-duty domestic diesel engines makes these swaps a discouragingly
> difficult process. Foreign diesels are usually quite advanced, but are
> difficult to find and maintain. If you do manage to install one of
> these, US diesel fuels are less refined and have a higher sulphur
> content than foreign purposed fuel, and generally incompatible with
> foreign designed and produced injectors.
>
> >If you are considering a diesel engine for the sake of novelty, you
> may find that it requires more commitment and cash than novelty is
> worth. If you are seeking them for fuel economy or efficiency, you may
> consider a modern, clean burning fuel-injected gas engine.
>
>
>
> Does it have to be spelled out in detail what a crock this all is?
>
> Novak just wants to get you to buy a kit to put in a Chevy like every
> other monkey see monkey do idiot out there. That way they sell more
> product with no more work. Bottom line they are lazy. Or the family is
> controlled by a semi-violent eighty year old patriarch/capo who had a
> bad time in WWII and is sporting a stiff for the Japs or Krauts after
> all these decades and the kids kiss his ***. I don't know.
>
> Think about the above. Cummins, Cat, and DDA decided in the forties
> and fifties to build big diesel engines and leave the sizable market
> for small diesels to importers, because being built primarily for
> automotive applications, Mercedes Benz, Nissan, Isuzu, and Mitsubishi
> could sell industrial derivatives of their AUTOMOTIVE diesels cheaper
> than DDA/Cummins/Cat could build them. They found wide------ use in
> gensets, Thermo King and Carrier reefer units, small tractors, farm
> equipment, Vermeer trenchers, and-because there is a secret huge stash
> of perfectly good diesel fuel all over them,it's just marked
> "JP-5/Jet-A"-airport ramp equipment of every imaginable type. You have
> to be one blind magoo not to see them every day.
> This was actually a good business decision. It does mean all the
> small diesels are "foreign". If you are, as Novak appears to be, on a
> religious crusade against imported products, stop reading now.
>
> If American diesel fuel was no good for all these foreign diesel
> engines, why have they been running fine on it for forty-five to fifty
> years? Why has no injection or pump shop ever heard of this?
>
> Gas fuel injected engines will never equal the BSFC figures of
> diesels, because their compression ratios are still those of gasoline
> engines, and worse, they run at full effective compression only at
> wide open throttle. Gasoline engines throttle the air supply and
> regulate fuel to the air used. Diesel engines receive the full air
> charge at all speeds and power settings.This means a diesel has a much
> flatter fuel efficiency curve because diesel engines are efficient
> from just over idle power (not RPM) to just short of full rack whereas
> for a given gasoline engine-its compression ratio,fuel used, cam
> timing, and thermal limits on its pistons, cylinder head
> structure,valve heads, and spark plugs-peak efficiency is achieved at
> only one thermally limited power setting and the curve is asymetric,
> but down from there. Above that power setting fuel mixtures must be
> substantially under or over stochiometric or the engine will suffer
> heat failure. Usually over is chosen, which complicates emission
> control as well. Put bluntly, given reasonable gearing choices, you
> will always get better fuel mileage from a diesel. The less smooth you
> are as a driver-or the rougher the terrain or traffic-the bigger the
> delta. (And I drive like a jackrabbit to be honest.)
06-21-2004, 05:54 PM
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Novak Adapters-Liar, Liar, Pants On Fire!
andrewmuaddib@hotmail.com (Andrew) wrote in message news:<8b5c891c.0406211027.39069fed@posting.google. com>...
> I hate to burst your bubble, but the quality of diesel fuel in the US
> is remarkably poor compared to, pretty much, the rest of the world.
Lower than _automotive_ fuel sold in the _EU_. ROW means the former
Soviet Union, South America, Africa, India, Asia, few of which have
ULSD. Most have poorer specs than the US. Japan may have ULSD but
Korea,Taiwan, Thailand, the PI definitely don't.
> So those really awesome highly engineered diesel engines
You mean the full-FADEC, common rail engines sold mostly for
automotive use, such as VM and BMW and-surprisingly-Fiat. These aren't
used for industrial/commercial use anywhere (yet) and are not what
he's talking about. He's referring to the engines sold here for fifty
years and used in automotive markets up until a few years ago in the
EU and still for Second/Third/Fourth World export.
sold for the
> European market will not run as well as they are intended, and they
> have significantly more internal deposits and degradation than had
> they been run with the quality fuel they were designed for. That is
> not to say, at all, that they will be a poor investment.
>
> Also, diesel engines have historically been heavier than gasoline
> engines. This has changed dramatically with better technology, so
> they may be close to, or the same weight as a gasoline engine. But
> without the quality of fuel they were designed for, don't expect the
> same performance or longevity as what they get over in Europe. They
> may (I don't know) get better gas mileage even with poorer quality
> fuel over here.
They are heavier-but within the weight ,say, a TJ could handle
>
> And third, to answer the assinine response to your post, live and let
> live. Some people like V8's, and love working on them.
Nothing wrong with that if that's what you want. He's talking about
others.Gas is expensive, diesels are available,for some people a
diesel swap is definitely highly desirable. Probably he's a little
frustrated.
It's easy to
> find parts, stroke them, etc, and they are readily available. Nobody
> has a right to tell you the way you build your Jeep is wrong, and it's
> childish and obnoxious to lay a blanket stereotype of anyone who
> thinks differently than you as a drunken, high school dropout redneck.
No one is saying they are.
> Most of those people you just slammed have far more civility,
> dignity, kindness, and helpfulness than you just displayed.
Some do, some don't. I don't think the first poster meant to say that
and I didn't either-I was speculating on what Novak was thinking. You
have to admit a certain segment of the market (as with any market),
not all, isn't too bright. A manufacturer has to take that into
account before plowing new territory, and it's the natural impulse of
sales management to steer customers to what is on the shelf now rather
than something they might want but which needs R&D.
OTOH Novak is just printing information that isn't so-diesel swaps
are possible and the fuel quality thing is a red herring with the
kinds of engines most potential swappers intend to use-the kind which
would be impacted are not available in the US at this time, and
require an ECU and harness (also not available) and which forfeit the
prime advantage of diesel-no electrics needed. Novak had to know this
and if they put up stuff like that, yes, people are going to get a
little bit upset, or think Novak must be stupid.
I guess I'm saying-I know what Novak is doing, but, they are probably
using poor judgment in posting information they have to know is not
correct.
> I hate to burst your bubble, but the quality of diesel fuel in the US
> is remarkably poor compared to, pretty much, the rest of the world.
Lower than _automotive_ fuel sold in the _EU_. ROW means the former
Soviet Union, South America, Africa, India, Asia, few of which have
ULSD. Most have poorer specs than the US. Japan may have ULSD but
Korea,Taiwan, Thailand, the PI definitely don't.
> So those really awesome highly engineered diesel engines
You mean the full-FADEC, common rail engines sold mostly for
automotive use, such as VM and BMW and-surprisingly-Fiat. These aren't
used for industrial/commercial use anywhere (yet) and are not what
he's talking about. He's referring to the engines sold here for fifty
years and used in automotive markets up until a few years ago in the
EU and still for Second/Third/Fourth World export.
sold for the
> European market will not run as well as they are intended, and they
> have significantly more internal deposits and degradation than had
> they been run with the quality fuel they were designed for. That is
> not to say, at all, that they will be a poor investment.
>
> Also, diesel engines have historically been heavier than gasoline
> engines. This has changed dramatically with better technology, so
> they may be close to, or the same weight as a gasoline engine. But
> without the quality of fuel they were designed for, don't expect the
> same performance or longevity as what they get over in Europe. They
> may (I don't know) get better gas mileage even with poorer quality
> fuel over here.
They are heavier-but within the weight ,say, a TJ could handle
>
> And third, to answer the assinine response to your post, live and let
> live. Some people like V8's, and love working on them.
Nothing wrong with that if that's what you want. He's talking about
others.Gas is expensive, diesels are available,for some people a
diesel swap is definitely highly desirable. Probably he's a little
frustrated.
It's easy to
> find parts, stroke them, etc, and they are readily available. Nobody
> has a right to tell you the way you build your Jeep is wrong, and it's
> childish and obnoxious to lay a blanket stereotype of anyone who
> thinks differently than you as a drunken, high school dropout redneck.
No one is saying they are.
> Most of those people you just slammed have far more civility,
> dignity, kindness, and helpfulness than you just displayed.
Some do, some don't. I don't think the first poster meant to say that
and I didn't either-I was speculating on what Novak was thinking. You
have to admit a certain segment of the market (as with any market),
not all, isn't too bright. A manufacturer has to take that into
account before plowing new territory, and it's the natural impulse of
sales management to steer customers to what is on the shelf now rather
than something they might want but which needs R&D.
OTOH Novak is just printing information that isn't so-diesel swaps
are possible and the fuel quality thing is a red herring with the
kinds of engines most potential swappers intend to use-the kind which
would be impacted are not available in the US at this time, and
require an ECU and harness (also not available) and which forfeit the
prime advantage of diesel-no electrics needed. Novak had to know this
and if they put up stuff like that, yes, people are going to get a
little bit upset, or think Novak must be stupid.
I guess I'm saying-I know what Novak is doing, but, they are probably
using poor judgment in posting information they have to know is not
correct.