So, basically....either drive is safe from this flying debris....but anyone
nearby would become a target!!

How ginger were you on the pedal? ACtually, I'm not going to question your
test methods at all....
Guys....just be smart!!!! If you want to play with your own
life...fine...we'll get you signed up for a Darwin award...
But don't ---- with other people's lives!



"Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
news:SPWdnZlBetCRFfDcRVn-gg@comcast.com...
>I just performed a quick, unscientific test using some scrap wood I had in
> the garage, 3/4" x 1" pieces of pine. I attached one ****** strap to a
> tree
> in my backyard, 6" tree-saver to my Jeep (my other ****** strap was too
> worn
> to be safe, it went into the garbage). Connected the two straps using the
> toggle method. Couldn't get it to break after several hard tugs against an
> immobile tree.
>
> I wanted the wood to break to see what it would do.
> I took the piece and scored around the middle with a saw, about 1/8" deep.
> Took about three tugs but it did break. The pieces flew clear of the
> straps
> to at about a 60 degree angle to the straps, away and to the right of the
> Jeep, about 100 feet away.
>
> Tried it again with another prepared piece of wood. Took about four tugs,
> when it broke, the pieces cleared both sides of the strap, this time
> somewhat toward the Jeep, but not in the immediate direction. It seemed
> the
> direction the pieces would take depended on which strap was the "toggle"
> strap.
>
> Tried again, and this time the pieces shot straight down.
>
> On every test, the straps did snap back to each attachment point but the
> wood cleared the end of the straps before their motion stopped. On the
> last
> pull the strap attached to the Jeep landed on the hood.
>
> My conclusions:
>
> (a) Assuming the first, unprepared piece is not as strong as a 2" hardwood
> dowel, I think the dowel in toggle formation would be adequate for
> extractions like hi-center or mild stucks. Very hard extractions (deep
> mud)
> would require more than a ****** strap anyhow.
>
> (b) The wood would probably not follow the same trajectory as the end of
> the
> strap when the dowel breaks, though it might land much further away, but
> generally not in the vicinity of the towed vehicles. This is my the basis
> for my advocation of the toggle method...the dowel does not "hook" onto
> the
> strap when it lets go, but rather it is thrown clear more or less sideways
> by the force of the break itself. Of course, the stronger the dowel, the
> more force is required to break it.
>
> Like I said, this was an unscientific test. But based on it I will
> probably
> reconsider using the toggle method, after all. While I still think the
> toggle method is viable, better safe than sorry.
>
> I think we can all agree that no matter what you use, every extraction
> technique has its risks and every precaution should be taken to minimize
> the
> danger.
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:416D6B01.1947E282@sympatico.ca...
>> You need some basic physics Matt....
>>
>> The strap is stretched. When it lets go it heads back in the opposite
>> direction it was stretched from sending any loose pieces ballistically
>> in that direction. No matter a clevis, hook or dowel, they 'all' go the
>> same way if the loop grabs them and takes them along for the ride.
>>
>> Think sling shot.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
>> >
>> > If it goes ballistic, it won't go ballistic toward either vehicle, but
> at a
>> > 90 deg direction from the pull. Think about it. It's not like using a
> clevis
>> > to connect straps.
>> >
>> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> > news:416D54C7.5EE6242A@sympatico.ca...
>> > > If the wood breaks using that method, it 'will' still go ballistic.
>> > >
>> > > Hard wood at ballistic speeds is just as dangerous as steel.
>> > >
>> > > Mike
>> > >
>> > > Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > I have no doubt that looping the straps together may make a
>> > > > stronger
>> > > > connection, depending on the dowel used in the toggle method.
> However,
>> > > > IMHO, if the wood breaks using the toggle method, it served as a
> safety
>> > > > buffer by preventing something very seriod from breaking off one of
> the
>> > > > vehicles. If the straps disconnect, the worst that would happen is
> the
>> > stuck
>> > > > vehicle is still stuck. Unless you're trying to pull it up a
> rockface,
>> > in
>> > > > which case you shouldn't be using a tow strap to begin with.
>
>

 

No, the toggle method is pulling the end of one strap through the end loop
of the other, then inserting a dowel through the loop of the first strap,
using the dowel as a "toggle" to lock teh straps together.

"aGraham" <aarongraham@mac.com.removeme> wrote in message
news:aarongraham-012FA3.16130513102004@corp-radius.supernews.com...
> I have lost track ( and I am even the one who started the conversation)
> is the "toggle method" tested below the same as the illustrated version
> earlier?
>
> In article <SPWdnZlBetCRFfDcRVn-gg@comcast.com>,
> "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote:
>
> > I just performed a quick, unscientific test using some scrap wood I had
in
> > the garage, 3/4" x 1" pieces of pine. I attached one ****** strap to a
tree
> > in my backyard, 6" tree-saver to my Jeep (my other ****** strap was too
worn
> > to be safe, it went into the garbage). Connected the two straps using
the
> > toggle method. Couldn't get it to break after several hard tugs against
an
> > immobile tree.
> >
> > I wanted the wood to break to see what it would do.
> > I took the piece and scored around the middle with a saw, about 1/8"
deep.
> > Took about three tugs but it did break. The pieces flew clear of the
straps
> > to at about a 60 degree angle to the straps, away and to the right of
the
> > Jeep, about 100 feet away.
> >
> > Tried it again with another prepared piece of wood. Took about four
tugs,
> > when it broke, the pieces cleared both sides of the strap, this time
> > somewhat toward the Jeep, but not in the immediate direction. It seemed
the
> > direction the pieces would take depended on which strap was the "toggle"
> > strap.
> >
> > Tried again, and this time the pieces shot straight down.
> >
> > On every test, the straps did snap back to each attachment point but the
> > wood cleared the end of the straps before their motion stopped. On the
last
> > pull the strap attached to the Jeep landed on the hood.
> >
> > My conclusions:
> >
> > (a) Assuming the first, unprepared piece is not as strong as a 2"
hardwood
> > dowel, I think the dowel in toggle formation would be adequate for
> > extractions like hi-center or mild stucks. Very hard extractions (deep
mud)
> > would require more than a ****** strap anyhow.
> >
> > (b) The wood would probably not follow the same trajectory as the end of
the
> > strap when the dowel breaks, though it might land much further away, but
> > generally not in the vicinity of the towed vehicles. This is my the
basis
> > for my advocation of the toggle method...the dowel does not "hook" onto
the
> > strap when it lets go, but rather it is thrown clear more or less
sideways
> > by the force of the break itself. Of course, the stronger the dowel, the
> > more force is required to break it.
> >
> > Like I said, this was an unscientific test. But based on it I will
probably
> > reconsider using the toggle method, after all. While I still think the
> > toggle method is viable, better safe than sorry.
> >
> > I think we can all agree that no matter what you use, every extraction
> > technique has its risks and every precaution should be taken to minimize
the
> > danger.
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:416D6B01.1947E282@sympatico.ca...
> > > You need some basic physics Matt....
> > >
> > > The strap is stretched. When it lets go it heads back in the opposite
> > > direction it was stretched from sending any loose pieces ballistically
> > > in that direction. No matter a clevis, hook or dowel, they 'all' go
the
> > > same way if the loop grabs them and takes them along for the ride.
> > >
> > > Think sling shot.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If it goes ballistic, it won't go ballistic toward either vehicle,
but
> > at a
> > > > 90 deg direction from the pull. Think about it. It's not like using
a
> > clevis
> > > > to connect straps.
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:416D54C7.5EE6242A@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > If the wood breaks using that method, it 'will' still go
ballistic.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hard wood at ballistic speeds is just as dangerous as steel.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have no doubt that looping the straps together may make a
stronger
> > > > > > connection, depending on the dowel used in the toggle method.
> > However,
> > > > > > IMHO, if the wood breaks using the toggle method, it served as a
> > safety
> > > > > > buffer by preventing something very seriod from breaking off one
of
> > the
> > > > > > vehicles. If the straps disconnect, the worst that would happen
is
> > the
> > > > stuck
> > > > > > vehicle is still stuck. Unless you're trying to pull it up a
> > rockface,
> > > > in
> > > > > > which case you shouldn't be using a tow strap to begin with.
>
> --
> o_o_o_o
> /| ,[_____],
> |¯¯¯L --O|||||||O-
> ()_)¯()_) ¯¯¯¯¯ )_)

 

No, the toggle method is pulling the end of one strap through the end loop
of the other, then inserting a dowel through the loop of the first strap,
using the dowel as a "toggle" to lock teh straps together.

"aGraham" <aarongraham@mac.com.removeme> wrote in message
news:aarongraham-012FA3.16130513102004@corp-radius.supernews.com...
> I have lost track ( and I am even the one who started the conversation)
> is the "toggle method" tested below the same as the illustrated version
> earlier?
>
> In article <SPWdnZlBetCRFfDcRVn-gg@comcast.com>,
> "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote:
>
> > I just performed a quick, unscientific test using some scrap wood I had
in
> > the garage, 3/4" x 1" pieces of pine. I attached one ****** strap to a
tree
> > in my backyard, 6" tree-saver to my Jeep (my other ****** strap was too
worn
> > to be safe, it went into the garbage). Connected the two straps using
the
> > toggle method. Couldn't get it to break after several hard tugs against
an
> > immobile tree.
> >
> > I wanted the wood to break to see what it would do.
> > I took the piece and scored around the middle with a saw, about 1/8"
deep.
> > Took about three tugs but it did break. The pieces flew clear of the
straps
> > to at about a 60 degree angle to the straps, away and to the right of
the
> > Jeep, about 100 feet away.
> >
> > Tried it again with another prepared piece of wood. Took about four
tugs,
> > when it broke, the pieces cleared both sides of the strap, this time
> > somewhat toward the Jeep, but not in the immediate direction. It seemed
the
> > direction the pieces would take depended on which strap was the "toggle"
> > strap.
> >
> > Tried again, and this time the pieces shot straight down.
> >
> > On every test, the straps did snap back to each attachment point but the
> > wood cleared the end of the straps before their motion stopped. On the
last
> > pull the strap attached to the Jeep landed on the hood.
> >
> > My conclusions:
> >
> > (a) Assuming the first, unprepared piece is not as strong as a 2"
hardwood
> > dowel, I think the dowel in toggle formation would be adequate for
> > extractions like hi-center or mild stucks. Very hard extractions (deep
mud)
> > would require more than a ****** strap anyhow.
> >
> > (b) The wood would probably not follow the same trajectory as the end of
the
> > strap when the dowel breaks, though it might land much further away, but
> > generally not in the vicinity of the towed vehicles. This is my the
basis
> > for my advocation of the toggle method...the dowel does not "hook" onto
the
> > strap when it lets go, but rather it is thrown clear more or less
sideways
> > by the force of the break itself. Of course, the stronger the dowel, the
> > more force is required to break it.
> >
> > Like I said, this was an unscientific test. But based on it I will
probably
> > reconsider using the toggle method, after all. While I still think the
> > toggle method is viable, better safe than sorry.
> >
> > I think we can all agree that no matter what you use, every extraction
> > technique has its risks and every precaution should be taken to minimize
the
> > danger.
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:416D6B01.1947E282@sympatico.ca...
> > > You need some basic physics Matt....
> > >
> > > The strap is stretched. When it lets go it heads back in the opposite
> > > direction it was stretched from sending any loose pieces ballistically
> > > in that direction. No matter a clevis, hook or dowel, they 'all' go
the
> > > same way if the loop grabs them and takes them along for the ride.
> > >
> > > Think sling shot.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If it goes ballistic, it won't go ballistic toward either vehicle,
but
> > at a
> > > > 90 deg direction from the pull. Think about it. It's not like using
a
> > clevis
> > > > to connect straps.
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:416D54C7.5EE6242A@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > If the wood breaks using that method, it 'will' still go
ballistic.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hard wood at ballistic speeds is just as dangerous as steel.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have no doubt that looping the straps together may make a
stronger
> > > > > > connection, depending on the dowel used in the toggle method.
> > However,
> > > > > > IMHO, if the wood breaks using the toggle method, it served as a
> > safety
> > > > > > buffer by preventing something very seriod from breaking off one
of
> > the
> > > > > > vehicles. If the straps disconnect, the worst that would happen
is
> > the
> > > > stuck
> > > > > > vehicle is still stuck. Unless you're trying to pull it up a
> > rockface,
> > > > in
> > > > > > which case you shouldn't be using a tow strap to begin with.
>
> --
> o_o_o_o
> /| ,[_____],
> |¯¯¯L --O|||||||O-
> ()_)¯()_) ¯¯¯¯¯ )_)

 

No, the toggle method is pulling the end of one strap through the end loop
of the other, then inserting a dowel through the loop of the first strap,
using the dowel as a "toggle" to lock teh straps together.

"aGraham" <aarongraham@mac.com.removeme> wrote in message
news:aarongraham-012FA3.16130513102004@corp-radius.supernews.com...
> I have lost track ( and I am even the one who started the conversation)
> is the "toggle method" tested below the same as the illustrated version
> earlier?
>
> In article <SPWdnZlBetCRFfDcRVn-gg@comcast.com>,
> "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote:
>
> > I just performed a quick, unscientific test using some scrap wood I had
in
> > the garage, 3/4" x 1" pieces of pine. I attached one ****** strap to a
tree
> > in my backyard, 6" tree-saver to my Jeep (my other ****** strap was too
worn
> > to be safe, it went into the garbage). Connected the two straps using
the
> > toggle method. Couldn't get it to break after several hard tugs against
an
> > immobile tree.
> >
> > I wanted the wood to break to see what it would do.
> > I took the piece and scored around the middle with a saw, about 1/8"
deep.
> > Took about three tugs but it did break. The pieces flew clear of the
straps
> > to at about a 60 degree angle to the straps, away and to the right of
the
> > Jeep, about 100 feet away.
> >
> > Tried it again with another prepared piece of wood. Took about four
tugs,
> > when it broke, the pieces cleared both sides of the strap, this time
> > somewhat toward the Jeep, but not in the immediate direction. It seemed
the
> > direction the pieces would take depended on which strap was the "toggle"
> > strap.
> >
> > Tried again, and this time the pieces shot straight down.
> >
> > On every test, the straps did snap back to each attachment point but the
> > wood cleared the end of the straps before their motion stopped. On the
last
> > pull the strap attached to the Jeep landed on the hood.
> >
> > My conclusions:
> >
> > (a) Assuming the first, unprepared piece is not as strong as a 2"
hardwood
> > dowel, I think the dowel in toggle formation would be adequate for
> > extractions like hi-center or mild stucks. Very hard extractions (deep
mud)
> > would require more than a ****** strap anyhow.
> >
> > (b) The wood would probably not follow the same trajectory as the end of
the
> > strap when the dowel breaks, though it might land much further away, but
> > generally not in the vicinity of the towed vehicles. This is my the
basis
> > for my advocation of the toggle method...the dowel does not "hook" onto
the
> > strap when it lets go, but rather it is thrown clear more or less
sideways
> > by the force of the break itself. Of course, the stronger the dowel, the
> > more force is required to break it.
> >
> > Like I said, this was an unscientific test. But based on it I will
probably
> > reconsider using the toggle method, after all. While I still think the
> > toggle method is viable, better safe than sorry.
> >
> > I think we can all agree that no matter what you use, every extraction
> > technique has its risks and every precaution should be taken to minimize
the
> > danger.
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:416D6B01.1947E282@sympatico.ca...
> > > You need some basic physics Matt....
> > >
> > > The strap is stretched. When it lets go it heads back in the opposite
> > > direction it was stretched from sending any loose pieces ballistically
> > > in that direction. No matter a clevis, hook or dowel, they 'all' go
the
> > > same way if the loop grabs them and takes them along for the ride.
> > >
> > > Think sling shot.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If it goes ballistic, it won't go ballistic toward either vehicle,
but
> > at a
> > > > 90 deg direction from the pull. Think about it. It's not like using
a
> > clevis
> > > > to connect straps.
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:416D54C7.5EE6242A@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > If the wood breaks using that method, it 'will' still go
ballistic.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hard wood at ballistic speeds is just as dangerous as steel.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have no doubt that looping the straps together may make a
stronger
> > > > > > connection, depending on the dowel used in the toggle method.
> > However,
> > > > > > IMHO, if the wood breaks using the toggle method, it served as a
> > safety
> > > > > > buffer by preventing something very seriod from breaking off one
of
> > the
> > > > > > vehicles. If the straps disconnect, the worst that would happen
is
> > the
> > > > stuck
> > > > > > vehicle is still stuck. Unless you're trying to pull it up a
> > rockface,
> > > > in
> > > > > > which case you shouldn't be using a tow strap to begin with.
>
> --
> o_o_o_o
> /| ,[_____],
> |¯¯¯L --O|||||||O-
> ()_)¯()_) ¯¯¯¯¯ )_)

 

Good, you and other observers may live longer.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
>
> Next time I am doing a Paul Bunyan and yanking out a stuck jeep with my bare
> hands, I'll remember your analogy.

 

Good, you and other observers may live longer.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
>
> Next time I am doing a Paul Bunyan and yanking out a stuck jeep with my bare
> hands, I'll remember your analogy.

 

Good, you and other observers may live longer.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
>
> Next time I am doing a Paul Bunyan and yanking out a stuck jeep with my bare
> hands, I'll remember your analogy.

 

http://xjeep.dyndns.org/togglestrap.jpg

Steve
http://xjeep.dyndns.org


Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> No, the toggle method is pulling the end of one strap through the end loop
> of the other, then inserting a dowel through the loop of the first strap,
> using the dowel as a "toggle" to lock teh straps together.
>
> "aGraham" <aarongraham@mac.com.removeme> wrote in message
> news:aarongraham-012FA3.16130513102004@corp-radius.supernews.com...
>
>>I have lost track ( and I am even the one who started the conversation)
>>is the "toggle method" tested below the same as the illustrated version
>>earlier?

 

http://xjeep.dyndns.org/togglestrap.jpg

Steve
http://xjeep.dyndns.org


Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> No, the toggle method is pulling the end of one strap through the end loop
> of the other, then inserting a dowel through the loop of the first strap,
> using the dowel as a "toggle" to lock teh straps together.
>
> "aGraham" <aarongraham@mac.com.removeme> wrote in message
> news:aarongraham-012FA3.16130513102004@corp-radius.supernews.com...
>
>>I have lost track ( and I am even the one who started the conversation)
>>is the "toggle method" tested below the same as the illustrated version
>>earlier?

 

http://xjeep.dyndns.org/togglestrap.jpg

Steve
http://xjeep.dyndns.org


Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> No, the toggle method is pulling the end of one strap through the end loop
> of the other, then inserting a dowel through the loop of the first strap,
> using the dowel as a "toggle" to lock teh straps together.
>
> "aGraham" <aarongraham@mac.com.removeme> wrote in message
> news:aarongraham-012FA3.16130513102004@corp-radius.supernews.com...
>
>>I have lost track ( and I am even the one who started the conversation)
>>is the "toggle method" tested below the same as the illustrated version
>>earlier?