Re: Loud grinding on start-up
 

If you spin the throwout bearing on a Jeep, it will fast burn a hole in
the front bearing cap or seal cover or 'nose' of the cover. It will
then hang and burn all the fingers off the pressure plate.

This was a common problem with the mechanical linkages if they were not
adjusted correctly. If they were too tight or if someone used the
clutch pedal as a foot rest, good bye pressure plate and tranny nose.
(bearing cap) Common enough failure, that the local Jeep shops even
stock new bearing caps...

There is no adjustment on the new hydraulic systems so if he has throw
out bearing noise, his new clutch was incorrectly put together or they
used the wrong parts.

When I hear his symptoms on a new clutch, I think loose pressure plate
bolt or even a loose starter.

I have also seen bad noises happen on start up just before the
transmission falls out of the Jeep because the installer forgot to
torque the bellhousing bolts.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Outatime wrote:
>
> Mike Romain wrote:
>
> > The throw out also isn't supposed to be turning when the clutch pedal is
> > out.
>
> Unless there is a lot of freeplay, it normally does; most self-adjusting
> clutch release assemblies keep lateral loads to a minimum while
> minimizing freeplay, which usually spins the bearing without a load when
> the clutch is fully engaged. Most TO bearing problems I run into in
> commercial vehicles make noise regardless of pedal positioning.
>
> The sound that a dry/pitted TO roller bearing makes is very distinct.
> We normally lube TO bearings from underneath the bellhousing when clutch
> freeplay is adjusted (usu. every 10K miles or so), but most mechanics
> are too lazy to bother these days. Their redemption comes in the form
> of a complete clutch assembly replacement on a weekend they would
> normally have off.
>
> All of the armchair quarterbacking here can't replace disassembly and
> inspection, which is what I recommend.

Re: Loud grinding on start-up
 

If you spin the throwout bearing on a Jeep, it will fast burn a hole in
the front bearing cap or seal cover or 'nose' of the cover. It will
then hang and burn all the fingers off the pressure plate.

This was a common problem with the mechanical linkages if they were not
adjusted correctly. If they were too tight or if someone used the
clutch pedal as a foot rest, good bye pressure plate and tranny nose.
(bearing cap) Common enough failure, that the local Jeep shops even
stock new bearing caps...

There is no adjustment on the new hydraulic systems so if he has throw
out bearing noise, his new clutch was incorrectly put together or they
used the wrong parts.

When I hear his symptoms on a new clutch, I think loose pressure plate
bolt or even a loose starter.

I have also seen bad noises happen on start up just before the
transmission falls out of the Jeep because the installer forgot to
torque the bellhousing bolts.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Outatime wrote:
>
> Mike Romain wrote:
>
> > The throw out also isn't supposed to be turning when the clutch pedal is
> > out.
>
> Unless there is a lot of freeplay, it normally does; most self-adjusting
> clutch release assemblies keep lateral loads to a minimum while
> minimizing freeplay, which usually spins the bearing without a load when
> the clutch is fully engaged. Most TO bearing problems I run into in
> commercial vehicles make noise regardless of pedal positioning.
>
> The sound that a dry/pitted TO roller bearing makes is very distinct.
> We normally lube TO bearings from underneath the bellhousing when clutch
> freeplay is adjusted (usu. every 10K miles or so), but most mechanics
> are too lazy to bother these days. Their redemption comes in the form
> of a complete clutch assembly replacement on a weekend they would
> normally have off.
>
> All of the armchair quarterbacking here can't replace disassembly and
> inspection, which is what I recommend.

Re: Loud grinding on start-up
 

my starter and all bellhousing bolts are torqued to whatever spec is
listed in the haynes manual. you guys i believe are right, now that i
think about it it makes sense that the clutch engaged proves it's not
the pilot bearing... and clutch disengaged with transmission in gear
proves transmission is fine... which seems to be the case.

if it was the throwout bearing, i'd kill someone, my last one went bad
after 18 months, that's why i had to replace the clutch in the first
place. My clutch, by the way, is hydraulic, not mechanical.

I still haven't found the cause. one of these days I'll get a friend
over to start the engine while i try to locate the source of the
noise... it usually doesn't last long enough for me to clamber out and
start prodding around.

Thanks for the suggestions.
Mike Romain wrote:
> If you spin the throwout bearing on a Jeep, it will fast burn a hole in
> the front bearing cap or seal cover or 'nose' of the cover. It will
> then hang and burn all the fingers off the pressure plate.
>
> This was a common problem with the mechanical linkages if they were not
> adjusted correctly. If they were too tight or if someone used the
> clutch pedal as a foot rest, good bye pressure plate and tranny nose.
> (bearing cap) Common enough failure, that the local Jeep shops even
> stock new bearing caps...
>
> There is no adjustment on the new hydraulic systems so if he has throw
> out bearing noise, his new clutch was incorrectly put together or they
> used the wrong parts.
>
> When I hear his symptoms on a new clutch, I think loose pressure plate
> bolt or even a loose starter.
>
> I have also seen bad noises happen on start up just before the
> transmission falls out of the Jeep because the installer forgot to
> torque the bellhousing bolts.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Outatime wrote:
> >
> > Mike Romain wrote:
> >
> > > The throw out also isn't supposed to be turning when the clutch pedal is
> > > out.
> >
> > Unless there is a lot of freeplay, it normally does; most self-adjusting
> > clutch release assemblies keep lateral loads to a minimum while
> > minimizing freeplay, which usually spins the bearing without a load when
> > the clutch is fully engaged. Most TO bearing problems I run into in
> > commercial vehicles make noise regardless of pedal positioning.
> >
> > The sound that a dry/pitted TO roller bearing makes is very distinct.
> > We normally lube TO bearings from underneath the bellhousing when clutch
> > freeplay is adjusted (usu. every 10K miles or so), but most mechanics
> > are too lazy to bother these days. Their redemption comes in the form
> > of a complete clutch assembly replacement on a weekend they would
> > normally have off.
> >
> > All of the armchair quarterbacking here can't replace disassembly and
> > inspection, which is what I recommend.

Re: Loud grinding on start-up
 

my starter and all bellhousing bolts are torqued to whatever spec is
listed in the haynes manual. you guys i believe are right, now that i
think about it it makes sense that the clutch engaged proves it's not
the pilot bearing... and clutch disengaged with transmission in gear
proves transmission is fine... which seems to be the case.

if it was the throwout bearing, i'd kill someone, my last one went bad
after 18 months, that's why i had to replace the clutch in the first
place. My clutch, by the way, is hydraulic, not mechanical.

I still haven't found the cause. one of these days I'll get a friend
over to start the engine while i try to locate the source of the
noise... it usually doesn't last long enough for me to clamber out and
start prodding around.

Thanks for the suggestions.
Mike Romain wrote:
> If you spin the throwout bearing on a Jeep, it will fast burn a hole in
> the front bearing cap or seal cover or 'nose' of the cover. It will
> then hang and burn all the fingers off the pressure plate.
>
> This was a common problem with the mechanical linkages if they were not
> adjusted correctly. If they were too tight or if someone used the
> clutch pedal as a foot rest, good bye pressure plate and tranny nose.
> (bearing cap) Common enough failure, that the local Jeep shops even
> stock new bearing caps...
>
> There is no adjustment on the new hydraulic systems so if he has throw
> out bearing noise, his new clutch was incorrectly put together or they
> used the wrong parts.
>
> When I hear his symptoms on a new clutch, I think loose pressure plate
> bolt or even a loose starter.
>
> I have also seen bad noises happen on start up just before the
> transmission falls out of the Jeep because the installer forgot to
> torque the bellhousing bolts.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Outatime wrote:
> >
> > Mike Romain wrote:
> >
> > > The throw out also isn't supposed to be turning when the clutch pedal is
> > > out.
> >
> > Unless there is a lot of freeplay, it normally does; most self-adjusting
> > clutch release assemblies keep lateral loads to a minimum while
> > minimizing freeplay, which usually spins the bearing without a load when
> > the clutch is fully engaged. Most TO bearing problems I run into in
> > commercial vehicles make noise regardless of pedal positioning.
> >
> > The sound that a dry/pitted TO roller bearing makes is very distinct.
> > We normally lube TO bearings from underneath the bellhousing when clutch
> > freeplay is adjusted (usu. every 10K miles or so), but most mechanics
> > are too lazy to bother these days. Their redemption comes in the form
> > of a complete clutch assembly replacement on a weekend they would
> > normally have off.
> >
> > All of the armchair quarterbacking here can't replace disassembly and
> > inspection, which is what I recommend.

Re: Loud grinding on start-up
 

my starter and all bellhousing bolts are torqued to whatever spec is
listed in the haynes manual. you guys i believe are right, now that i
think about it it makes sense that the clutch engaged proves it's not
the pilot bearing... and clutch disengaged with transmission in gear
proves transmission is fine... which seems to be the case.

if it was the throwout bearing, i'd kill someone, my last one went bad
after 18 months, that's why i had to replace the clutch in the first
place. My clutch, by the way, is hydraulic, not mechanical.

I still haven't found the cause. one of these days I'll get a friend
over to start the engine while i try to locate the source of the
noise... it usually doesn't last long enough for me to clamber out and
start prodding around.

Thanks for the suggestions.
Mike Romain wrote:
> If you spin the throwout bearing on a Jeep, it will fast burn a hole in
> the front bearing cap or seal cover or 'nose' of the cover. It will
> then hang and burn all the fingers off the pressure plate.
>
> This was a common problem with the mechanical linkages if they were not
> adjusted correctly. If they were too tight or if someone used the
> clutch pedal as a foot rest, good bye pressure plate and tranny nose.
> (bearing cap) Common enough failure, that the local Jeep shops even
> stock new bearing caps...
>
> There is no adjustment on the new hydraulic systems so if he has throw
> out bearing noise, his new clutch was incorrectly put together or they
> used the wrong parts.
>
> When I hear his symptoms on a new clutch, I think loose pressure plate
> bolt or even a loose starter.
>
> I have also seen bad noises happen on start up just before the
> transmission falls out of the Jeep because the installer forgot to
> torque the bellhousing bolts.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Outatime wrote:
> >
> > Mike Romain wrote:
> >
> > > The throw out also isn't supposed to be turning when the clutch pedal is
> > > out.
> >
> > Unless there is a lot of freeplay, it normally does; most self-adjusting
> > clutch release assemblies keep lateral loads to a minimum while
> > minimizing freeplay, which usually spins the bearing without a load when
> > the clutch is fully engaged. Most TO bearing problems I run into in
> > commercial vehicles make noise regardless of pedal positioning.
> >
> > The sound that a dry/pitted TO roller bearing makes is very distinct.
> > We normally lube TO bearings from underneath the bellhousing when clutch
> > freeplay is adjusted (usu. every 10K miles or so), but most mechanics
> > are too lazy to bother these days. Their redemption comes in the form
> > of a complete clutch assembly replacement on a weekend they would
> > normally have off.
> >
> > All of the armchair quarterbacking here can't replace disassembly and
> > inspection, which is what I recommend.

Re: Loud grinding on start-up
 

Micah wrote:

> if it was the throwout bearing, i'd kill someone, my last one went bad
> after 18 months, that's why i had to replace the clutch in the first
> place. My clutch, by the way, is hydraulic, not mechanical.

I've replaced TO bearings with high-quality Timkens in the past and had
them croak again within 6 months. The bearings I bought were
aftermarket units however, and I truly believe that most anything
'aftermarket' these days isn't worth installing, even if it has a
lifetime-warranty; what's the point of a warranty if you have to tear it
down again every year to replace those 'free replacement' junk parts?

If you have to do it all over again, stick with OEM-sourced parts only.
I've heard arguments pro and con on this one over the years. Even if
aftermarket parts are cheaper and supposedly very high quality, the
aggrivation factor alone demands that I use only OEM parts from now on.
And that includes (especially!) remans, however, I never install a
reman-anything unless absolutely necessasary; go with new parts whenever
possible, even if it costs 10X more.

I'm curious what it ends up being however; my money is still on the TO.

Re: Loud grinding on start-up
 

Micah wrote:

> if it was the throwout bearing, i'd kill someone, my last one went bad
> after 18 months, that's why i had to replace the clutch in the first
> place. My clutch, by the way, is hydraulic, not mechanical.

I've replaced TO bearings with high-quality Timkens in the past and had
them croak again within 6 months. The bearings I bought were
aftermarket units however, and I truly believe that most anything
'aftermarket' these days isn't worth installing, even if it has a
lifetime-warranty; what's the point of a warranty if you have to tear it
down again every year to replace those 'free replacement' junk parts?

If you have to do it all over again, stick with OEM-sourced parts only.
I've heard arguments pro and con on this one over the years. Even if
aftermarket parts are cheaper and supposedly very high quality, the
aggrivation factor alone demands that I use only OEM parts from now on.
And that includes (especially!) remans, however, I never install a
reman-anything unless absolutely necessasary; go with new parts whenever
possible, even if it costs 10X more.

I'm curious what it ends up being however; my money is still on the TO.

Re: Loud grinding on start-up
 

Micah wrote:

> if it was the throwout bearing, i'd kill someone, my last one went bad
> after 18 months, that's why i had to replace the clutch in the first
> place. My clutch, by the way, is hydraulic, not mechanical.

I've replaced TO bearings with high-quality Timkens in the past and had
them croak again within 6 months. The bearings I bought were
aftermarket units however, and I truly believe that most anything
'aftermarket' these days isn't worth installing, even if it has a
lifetime-warranty; what's the point of a warranty if you have to tear it
down again every year to replace those 'free replacement' junk parts?

If you have to do it all over again, stick with OEM-sourced parts only.
I've heard arguments pro and con on this one over the years. Even if
aftermarket parts are cheaper and supposedly very high quality, the
aggrivation factor alone demands that I use only OEM parts from now on.
And that includes (especially!) remans, however, I never install a
reman-anything unless absolutely necessasary; go with new parts whenever
possible, even if it costs 10X more.

I'm curious what it ends up being however; my money is still on the TO.

Re: Loud grinding on start-up
 

Outatime wrote:
> Micah wrote:
>
>> if it was the throwout bearing, i'd kill someone, my last one went bad
>> after 18 months, that's why i had to replace the clutch in the first
>> place. My clutch, by the way, is hydraulic, not mechanical.
>
> I've replaced TO bearings with high-quality Timkens in the past and had
> them croak again within 6 months. The bearings I bought were
> aftermarket units however, and I truly believe that most anything
> 'aftermarket' these days isn't worth installing, even if it has a
> lifetime-warranty; what's the point of a warranty if you have to tear it
> down again every year to replace those 'free replacement' junk parts?

OEM's have the advantage of assembling everything within their specs in
a clean controlled environment...

No matter how high the quality of an aftermarket part is, it's ALWAYS
being installed in a dusty, grimy shop by hands covered with multiple
solvents and petroleum products; which may or may not be compatible or
harmful (Hand degreaser, used oil, break cleaner etc.)... but even if
compatible they do a good job of trapping grit and grime and ------ing
it to new freshly machined bearings, and soft rubber seals etc.

If that doesn't kill em' being wacked in with a BF hammer and a
socket/Tubing used for a drift, or having bolts torqued down to the
torque specification of: "good n' tight usin' my breaker bar and ----
pipe cheater" will.

--
Simon
"I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein

Re: Loud grinding on start-up
 

Outatime wrote:
> Micah wrote:
>
>> if it was the throwout bearing, i'd kill someone, my last one went bad
>> after 18 months, that's why i had to replace the clutch in the first
>> place. My clutch, by the way, is hydraulic, not mechanical.
>
> I've replaced TO bearings with high-quality Timkens in the past and had
> them croak again within 6 months. The bearings I bought were
> aftermarket units however, and I truly believe that most anything
> 'aftermarket' these days isn't worth installing, even if it has a
> lifetime-warranty; what's the point of a warranty if you have to tear it
> down again every year to replace those 'free replacement' junk parts?

OEM's have the advantage of assembling everything within their specs in
a clean controlled environment...

No matter how high the quality of an aftermarket part is, it's ALWAYS
being installed in a dusty, grimy shop by hands covered with multiple
solvents and petroleum products; which may or may not be compatible or
harmful (Hand degreaser, used oil, break cleaner etc.)... but even if
compatible they do a good job of trapping grit and grime and ------ing
it to new freshly machined bearings, and soft rubber seals etc.

If that doesn't kill em' being wacked in with a BF hammer and a
socket/Tubing used for a drift, or having bolts torqued down to the
torque specification of: "good n' tight usin' my breaker bar and ----
pipe cheater" will.

--
Simon
"I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein