L.W.(Bill) Hughes III

That's because skyjacker and most off road after market
manufacturers weren't around in the sixties. And of course that's reason
Bronco never won the BaJa 1000, they came new with coil springs:
http://www.----------.com/bouncingFord.jpg
Racers may modify there frames, but most are bought, like I did
back in 1962 for my rails, these are by Drag Master:
http://www.----------.com/dragster.jpg and:
http://www.----------.com/temp/dragster.mpg
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:--------------------
Simon Juncal wrote:
>
> Funny I don't recall any Skyjacker stickers on Parnelli Jones' Bronco.
>
> You are just hopelessly grasping at straws LOL All of those
> manufacturers make LEAF SPRING KITS as well as Coil.
>
> To sugest nearly all competative racers (most of whom custom fab their
> rigs) use a LESS EFFECTIVE suspension because SOME rigs are sponsered by
> lift kit manufacturers (no where near all of them) is pure
> flying-in-the-face-of-common-sense, desperation on your part Bill.
>
> Come on you should know -------- when you read it, so re-read what you
> wrote and tell me you really believe that --------? You think Big Oly
> had Coil springs because of a lift kit manufacturer?
>
> --
> Simon
> "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein

L.W.(Bill) Hughes III

That's because skyjacker and most off road after market
manufacturers weren't around in the sixties. And of course that's reason
Bronco never won the BaJa 1000, they came new with coil springs:
http://www.----------.com/bouncingFord.jpg
Racers may modify there frames, but most are bought, like I did
back in 1962 for my rails, these are by Drag Master:
http://www.----------.com/dragster.jpg and:
http://www.----------.com/temp/dragster.mpg
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:--------------------
Simon Juncal wrote:
>
> Funny I don't recall any Skyjacker stickers on Parnelli Jones' Bronco.
>
> You are just hopelessly grasping at straws LOL All of those
> manufacturers make LEAF SPRING KITS as well as Coil.
>
> To sugest nearly all competative racers (most of whom custom fab their
> rigs) use a LESS EFFECTIVE suspension because SOME rigs are sponsered by
> lift kit manufacturers (no where near all of them) is pure
> flying-in-the-face-of-common-sense, desperation on your part Bill.
>
> Come on you should know -------- when you read it, so re-read what you
> wrote and tell me you really believe that --------? You think Big Oly
> had Coil springs because of a lift kit manufacturer?
>
> --
> Simon
> "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein

L.W.(Bill) Hughes III

Hi Jeff,
It's why the Ford f-350 and most 3/4 tons use leafs, they are
simply stronger! A secondary advantage in geometry is their in inherent
ability to absorb impacts by slowing the action as the springs slide
past each other adding a friction factor. Which keeps the tire glued to
the ground, although we sacrifice some cushy ride for it. For the cushy
ride I own an independent suspension '89 Thunderbird:
http://www.----------.com/89thunderb...Suspension.jpg
That hugs the road like an Indy car.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Jeffrey DeWitt wrote:
>
> I'm NOT trying to get into the middle of something but am curious.
>
> I know just enough to be dangerous about the differences between leaf
> and coil springs, and my Jeep has coils in front while the Studebaker
> truck has leafs.
>
> Why would leafs be considered better on a 4wd vehicle? Obviously it can
> make for a simpler suspension (they don't get much simpler than my
> truck!), and simple is NOT a bad thing, but they do take more room.
>
> So what are the pros and cons of each?
>
> A question somewhat related to the argument between Bill and Simon, just
> why DO semi tractors have drum brakes? Seems like disks are cheaper,
> simpler, easier to maintain and are less likely to fail, but about all I
> know about those trucks I've learned on the "Trucks" TV show and the
> fact I don't like to be behind them.
>
> Jeff DeWitt

L.W.(Bill) Hughes III

Hi Jeff,
It's why the Ford f-350 and most 3/4 tons use leafs, they are
simply stronger! A secondary advantage in geometry is their in inherent
ability to absorb impacts by slowing the action as the springs slide
past each other adding a friction factor. Which keeps the tire glued to
the ground, although we sacrifice some cushy ride for it. For the cushy
ride I own an independent suspension '89 Thunderbird:
http://www.----------.com/89thunderb...Suspension.jpg
That hugs the road like an Indy car.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Jeffrey DeWitt wrote:
>
> I'm NOT trying to get into the middle of something but am curious.
>
> I know just enough to be dangerous about the differences between leaf
> and coil springs, and my Jeep has coils in front while the Studebaker
> truck has leafs.
>
> Why would leafs be considered better on a 4wd vehicle? Obviously it can
> make for a simpler suspension (they don't get much simpler than my
> truck!), and simple is NOT a bad thing, but they do take more room.
>
> So what are the pros and cons of each?
>
> A question somewhat related to the argument between Bill and Simon, just
> why DO semi tractors have drum brakes? Seems like disks are cheaper,
> simpler, easier to maintain and are less likely to fail, but about all I
> know about those trucks I've learned on the "Trucks" TV show and the
> fact I don't like to be behind them.
>
> Jeff DeWitt

L.W.(Bill) Hughes III

Hi Jeff,
It's why the Ford f-350 and most 3/4 tons use leafs, they are
simply stronger! A secondary advantage in geometry is their in inherent
ability to absorb impacts by slowing the action as the springs slide
past each other adding a friction factor. Which keeps the tire glued to
the ground, although we sacrifice some cushy ride for it. For the cushy
ride I own an independent suspension '89 Thunderbird:
http://www.----------.com/89thunderb...Suspension.jpg
That hugs the road like an Indy car.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Jeffrey DeWitt wrote:
>
> I'm NOT trying to get into the middle of something but am curious.
>
> I know just enough to be dangerous about the differences between leaf
> and coil springs, and my Jeep has coils in front while the Studebaker
> truck has leafs.
>
> Why would leafs be considered better on a 4wd vehicle? Obviously it can
> make for a simpler suspension (they don't get much simpler than my
> truck!), and simple is NOT a bad thing, but they do take more room.
>
> So what are the pros and cons of each?
>
> A question somewhat related to the argument between Bill and Simon, just
> why DO semi tractors have drum brakes? Seems like disks are cheaper,
> simpler, easier to maintain and are less likely to fail, but about all I
> know about those trucks I've learned on the "Trucks" TV show and the
> fact I don't like to be behind them.
>
> Jeff DeWitt

Simon Juncal

Coils can compress and expand more than leafs, they are only attached to
the frame at one point and usually in line with suspension travel
meaning they are much less restrictive to movement. They also allow
things like four link, four bar and tri axial suspensions which all have
their pros and cons but all offer serious advantages in their
applications over old fashioned leaf springs.

Leafs are stronger more simple and are great for towing and heavy loads
which apparently Bill equates to off roading for some wacky reason.

As for trucks, a lot of things the trucking industry does only for cost
reasons. The other major motivator is pure stubborn tradition and
resistance to change (remember they didn't want to put Lower bumpers on
their trailers because well... because they didn't want to spend money
or change, regardless of the fact that they save peoples lives.

The Semi thus is an extremely poor thing to use as an example for ANY
technology. Because between the EXTREME specialization (it has to tow
80,000 pounds!) and the trucking industry being EXTREMELY inbred and old
fashioned; you are really looking at what equates to a Dynosour some
decades before the extinction. That is to say: A big unadaptable slow
beast (meaning the industry not the trucks) poorly suited to survival if
the worlds changes significantly.

--
Simon
"I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein

Simon Juncal

Coils can compress and expand more than leafs, they are only attached to
the frame at one point and usually in line with suspension travel
meaning they are much less restrictive to movement. They also allow
things like four link, four bar and tri axial suspensions which all have
their pros and cons but all offer serious advantages in their
applications over old fashioned leaf springs.

Leafs are stronger more simple and are great for towing and heavy loads
which apparently Bill equates to off roading for some wacky reason.

As for trucks, a lot of things the trucking industry does only for cost
reasons. The other major motivator is pure stubborn tradition and
resistance to change (remember they didn't want to put Lower bumpers on
their trailers because well... because they didn't want to spend money
or change, regardless of the fact that they save peoples lives.

The Semi thus is an extremely poor thing to use as an example for ANY
technology. Because between the EXTREME specialization (it has to tow
80,000 pounds!) and the trucking industry being EXTREMELY inbred and old
fashioned; you are really looking at what equates to a Dynosour some
decades before the extinction. That is to say: A big unadaptable slow
beast (meaning the industry not the trucks) poorly suited to survival if
the worlds changes significantly.

--
Simon
"I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein

Simon Juncal

Coils can compress and expand more than leafs, they are only attached to
the frame at one point and usually in line with suspension travel
meaning they are much less restrictive to movement. They also allow
things like four link, four bar and tri axial suspensions which all have
their pros and cons but all offer serious advantages in their
applications over old fashioned leaf springs.

Leafs are stronger more simple and are great for towing and heavy loads
which apparently Bill equates to off roading for some wacky reason.

As for trucks, a lot of things the trucking industry does only for cost
reasons. The other major motivator is pure stubborn tradition and
resistance to change (remember they didn't want to put Lower bumpers on
their trailers because well... because they didn't want to spend money
or change, regardless of the fact that they save peoples lives.

The Semi thus is an extremely poor thing to use as an example for ANY
technology. Because between the EXTREME specialization (it has to tow
80,000 pounds!) and the trucking industry being EXTREMELY inbred and old
fashioned; you are really looking at what equates to a Dynosour some
decades before the extinction. That is to say: A big unadaptable slow
beast (meaning the industry not the trucks) poorly suited to survival if
the worlds changes significantly.

--
Simon
"I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein

Mike Romain

Well..... When the boys lift and lock both the front and rear diffs on
a TJ, they can 'almost' keep up to my open diffed CJ7 out at the local
sand pits.

Great for photo ops. They laugh, 'once', at my CJ7 with it's tall
skinny tires and puny 2.5" lift, then they spend the rest of the day
trying and trying to get to where I am taking photos of them trying and
trying...

The coil springs can't keep the tires on the ground, so they start to
bounce which lets them spin so when they come down they just dig holes
rather than continue forward. Same for washboard roads, the coils will
let you go faster easier, but you can get into trouble faster too...

When you are crawling up over rocks, the leaf springs raise the rocker
panels up very quickly so you don't tag them. Coils just let the axle
go up so you have to have rocker panel protection or you beat up your
Jeep.

Coils are 'far' more comfortable though.....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Jeffrey DeWitt wrote:
>
> I'm NOT trying to get into the middle of something but am curious.
>
> I know just enough to be dangerous about the differences between leaf
> and coil springs, and my Jeep has coils in front while the Studebaker
> truck has leafs.
>
> Why would leafs be considered better on a 4wd vehicle? Obviously it can
> make for a simpler suspension (they don't get much simpler than my
> truck!), and simple is NOT a bad thing, but they do take more room.
>
> So what are the pros and cons of each?
>
> A question somewhat related to the argument between Bill and Simon, just
> why DO semi tractors have drum brakes? Seems like disks are cheaper,
> simpler, easier to maintain and are less likely to fail, but about all I
> know about those trucks I've learned on the "Trucks" TV show and the
> fact I don't like to be behind them.
>
> Jeff DeWitt
>
> Simon Juncal wrote:
> > Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> >
> >> Yes but mu point that you missed was any CJ-5 in his price range is
> >> going to need a lot more REPAIR, not UPGRADE, than something newer.
> >
> >
> > Bill didn't miss the point, he selects arbitrary (and usually
> > irrelivant) points to suit the link he's posting or to get away from the
> > fact that he has just been schooled but can't accept it.
> >
> > Case in point he mentioned Semi trucks have drum brakes... which is so
> > utterly irrelivant that he might as well have said his 1935 soap box
> > racer he made in his youth, had rubber sneaker drag brakes.
> >
> > If you mention that a boxed frame Jeep has more strength and rigidity he
> > will ALWAYS say that Semi tractors have open C channel frames, he has no
> > clue WHY! If he had a clue he wouldn't mention that they have C-channel,
> > frames because he would realize he was defeating his own argument.
> >
> > (PS. Semi's have open channel frames because they NEED TO FLEX! to
> > handle up to 80,000 pound loads, they are DESIGNED to be flexible in a
> > predictable and consistent manner).
> >
> > If you mention Coil springs he will mention Semi's and heavy tow and
> > vehicles have leafs... apearently believeing that towing capacity
> > equates to off road prowess.
> >
> > Basically Bill stopped believing in reality about 30 years ago but he
> > hasn't let that stop him from being an opinionated old kook. Who thinks
> > that anything new is inferior (including fuel injection... because 1500
> > Horse power top fuel dragsters use carburetors!!!)
> >

Mike Romain

Well..... When the boys lift and lock both the front and rear diffs on
a TJ, they can 'almost' keep up to my open diffed CJ7 out at the local
sand pits.

Great for photo ops. They laugh, 'once', at my CJ7 with it's tall
skinny tires and puny 2.5" lift, then they spend the rest of the day
trying and trying to get to where I am taking photos of them trying and
trying...

The coil springs can't keep the tires on the ground, so they start to
bounce which lets them spin so when they come down they just dig holes
rather than continue forward. Same for washboard roads, the coils will
let you go faster easier, but you can get into trouble faster too...

When you are crawling up over rocks, the leaf springs raise the rocker
panels up very quickly so you don't tag them. Coils just let the axle
go up so you have to have rocker panel protection or you beat up your
Jeep.

Coils are 'far' more comfortable though.....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Jeffrey DeWitt wrote:
>
> I'm NOT trying to get into the middle of something but am curious.
>
> I know just enough to be dangerous about the differences between leaf
> and coil springs, and my Jeep has coils in front while the Studebaker
> truck has leafs.
>
> Why would leafs be considered better on a 4wd vehicle? Obviously it can
> make for a simpler suspension (they don't get much simpler than my
> truck!), and simple is NOT a bad thing, but they do take more room.
>
> So what are the pros and cons of each?
>
> A question somewhat related to the argument between Bill and Simon, just
> why DO semi tractors have drum brakes? Seems like disks are cheaper,
> simpler, easier to maintain and are less likely to fail, but about all I
> know about those trucks I've learned on the "Trucks" TV show and the
> fact I don't like to be behind them.
>
> Jeff DeWitt
>
> Simon Juncal wrote:
> > Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> >
> >> Yes but mu point that you missed was any CJ-5 in his price range is
> >> going to need a lot more REPAIR, not UPGRADE, than something newer.
> >
> >
> > Bill didn't miss the point, he selects arbitrary (and usually
> > irrelivant) points to suit the link he's posting or to get away from the
> > fact that he has just been schooled but can't accept it.
> >
> > Case in point he mentioned Semi trucks have drum brakes... which is so
> > utterly irrelivant that he might as well have said his 1935 soap box
> > racer he made in his youth, had rubber sneaker drag brakes.
> >
> > If you mention that a boxed frame Jeep has more strength and rigidity he
> > will ALWAYS say that Semi tractors have open C channel frames, he has no
> > clue WHY! If he had a clue he wouldn't mention that they have C-channel,
> > frames because he would realize he was defeating his own argument.
> >
> > (PS. Semi's have open channel frames because they NEED TO FLEX! to
> > handle up to 80,000 pound loads, they are DESIGNED to be flexible in a
> > predictable and consistent manner).
> >
> > If you mention Coil springs he will mention Semi's and heavy tow and
> > vehicles have leafs... apearently believeing that towing capacity
> > equates to off road prowess.
> >
> > Basically Bill stopped believing in reality about 30 years ago but he
> > hasn't let that stop him from being an opinionated old kook. Who thinks
> > that anything new is inferior (including fuel injection... because 1500
> > Horse power top fuel dragsters use carburetors!!!)
> >