Mike Romain

I asked that on another group and he refused to answer....

I might have ticked him off by saying I thought the first unit died
because he continued to tow after all the idiot lights came on
indicating an overheat emergency....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> Have you checked your fluid level since the install? It may be just low
> enough to cause the problems you're having, once it warms up the fluid
> expands...
>
> "Jon" <jongoddard@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1191363788.783122.270960@d55g2000hsg.googlegr oups.com...
>> Sounds fishy. Like Bill, I have to raise an eyebrow at the 3 qt.
>> figure. Oh well, that's ancient history, right?
>>
>> Are you _positive_ that it is a brand new unit, and not a factory
>> reman'd unit? When I was looking at options a little over a year ago,
>> the dealer told me I couldn't get a new trans -- all they used were
>> "factory" reman'd units. Hearsay for both of us, I suppose.
>>
>> Why do I ask? While a lag on shift from P to D or R is not unheard of
>> for this trans, it's far more common to see on a high mileage unit....
>> 20-30 seconds is a _long_ time for that kind of lag, no matter how
>> many miles.....do you get that much delay on every cold or first start
>> of the day? If the problem is lessened by putting the transmission in
>> neutral for a few seconds before shifting to D or R, you're showing
>> signs of a worn or seized front pump bushing...
>>
>> At any rate, with your symptom and your investment, I'd be heading
>> straight back to the transmission shop......
>>
>> Jon
>>
>
>

GLB

I guess I made the mistake of trusting my dealer. Never had a problem with
them before. I can't get a straight answer as to how much fluid should be in
there. I've been told 12 quarts, 15 quarts, 13.3 quarts. I never thought to
check the fluid levels after they serviced it because it never showed any
signs of leakage and I've been under the truck. The pan wasn't dripping,
behind the tailshaft is still dry. It's a mystery as to where the fluid, 3
quarts in about 3 months went to. I don't think it was ever there personally
92,505 routine inspection fluid ok
97,386 trans flush (Jan)
95,932 routine inspection fluid ok
103,243 routine inspection fluid ok
105,079 routine inspection, fluid ok
111,469 Trans problems, filters replaces, fluid changed, codes reset
(August)
111.905 more Trans problems & codes set P0868 low line pressure, P0867 line
pressure fault, P0740 TCC out of range, P0218 high temp operation. Suggest
faulty trans front pump

Right now after it sets for 4 hours, when I start it and put it in gear, I
can red line it without it hardly moving. Of course, it won't do that when
it's at the tranny shop. 30 seconds later it's off and running fine (almost)


"Jon" <jongoddard@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1191363788.783122.270960@d55g2000hsg.googlegr oups.com...
> On Oct 2, 4:23 am, "Matt Macchiarolo" <m...@nospamplease.com> wrote:
>> How many miles since your last transmission service? Did you check the
>> tranny fluid yourself between January and March?
>>
>> "GLB" <g...@imagesbyglb.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:4701c370$0$18931$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> >I have a 2001 GC 45RFE transmission with the 4.7 V8.
>> > Had a trans flush in January at the Jeep dealer.
>> > Up to March the fluid was ok per Jeep when it was in for other repairs,
>> > honestly I didn't check because it never showed any indications of
>> > leaking.
>> > Beginning of June we headed out of town pulling a small trailer. Half
>> > hour
>> > out the trans temp light comes on and check engine light. Putting it in
>> > neutral and running it turned off the trans temp light but it came on
>> > again.
>> > We headed home to swap out the truck for my wifes GC and we continued
>> > on
>> > to
>> > NC from FL without the trailer. Upon return I took the truck to Jeep
>> > and
>> > they said it was 3 quarts low of fluid. Somehow I LOST, 3 quarts of
>> > fluid
>> > in
>> > a couple months without any dripping from the pan or spraying back
>> > behind
>> > the tailshaft. Hmmm . . . .
>> > They cleared the codes, pulled the LEAKING pan, replaced both filters
>> > and
>> > reinstalled the pan. Everything was fine for awhile. Then the tranny
>> > started
>> > acting up again, not shifting right and the fan would come on at a
>> > light
>> > like it was hot. No temp light but it threw a couple codes relating to
>> > front
>> > pump pressure I was told.
>> > Jeep wanted almost 4k for a MOPAR tranny, 3 year 80k warranty. A local
>> > tranny shop put one in (MOPAR, same tranny) for 1k less. 2nd day of
>> > driving
>> > when it was put in gear when cold the tranny would slip like crazy for
>> > about
>> > 30 seconds untill I assume pressure built up and the torque converter
>> > engaged properly. Once warm it shifted OK but honestly my old tranny
>> > with
>> > its issues shifted quieter & smoother.
>>
>> > Question:
>> > 1) Would driving it 3 quarts low cause a problem with the "Front Pump"?
>> > 2) What would cause the NEW tranny to slip so much when first engaged?
>> > I can rev the engine with the tranny engaged (drive or reverse) and its
>> > like
>> > slipping a clutch on a stick shift without the truck hardly moving.
>> > This
>> > only lasts like I said about 20-30 seconds.
>>
>> > Frustrated!
>>
>> > g...@imagesbyglb.com
>>
>> > Pet friendly Vacation in the Smokies
>> >http://www.deepcreekhideaway.com/- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> GLB,
>
> Sounds fishy. Like Bill, I have to raise an eyebrow at the 3 qt.
> figure. Oh well, that's ancient history, right?
>
> Are you _positive_ that it is a brand new unit, and not a factory
> reman'd unit? When I was looking at options a little over a year ago,
> the dealer told me I couldn't get a new trans -- all they used were
> "factory" reman'd units. Hearsay for both of us, I suppose.
>
> Why do I ask? While a lag on shift from P to D or R is not unheard of
> for this trans, it's far more common to see on a high mileage unit....
> 20-30 seconds is a _long_ time for that kind of lag, no matter how
> many miles.....do you get that much delay on every cold or first start
> of the day? If the problem is lessened by putting the transmission in
> neutral for a few seconds before shifting to D or R, you're showing
> signs of a worn or seized front pump bushing...
>
> At any rate, with your symptom and your investment, I'd be heading
> straight back to the transmission shop......
>
> Jon
>

GLB

I guess I made the mistake of trusting my dealer. Never had a problem with
them before. I can't get a straight answer as to how much fluid should be in
there. I've been told 12 quarts, 15 quarts, 13.3 quarts. I never thought to
check the fluid levels after they serviced it because it never showed any
signs of leakage and I've been under the truck. The pan wasn't dripping,
behind the tailshaft is still dry. It's a mystery as to where the fluid, 3
quarts in about 3 months went to. I don't think it was ever there personally
92,505 routine inspection fluid ok
97,386 trans flush (Jan)
95,932 routine inspection fluid ok
103,243 routine inspection fluid ok
105,079 routine inspection, fluid ok
111,469 Trans problems, filters replaces, fluid changed, codes reset
(August)
111.905 more Trans problems & codes set P0868 low line pressure, P0867 line
pressure fault, P0740 TCC out of range, P0218 high temp operation. Suggest
faulty trans front pump

Right now after it sets for 4 hours, when I start it and put it in gear, I
can red line it without it hardly moving. Of course, it won't do that when
it's at the tranny shop. 30 seconds later it's off and running fine (almost)


"Jon" <jongoddard@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1191363788.783122.270960@d55g2000hsg.googlegr oups.com...
> On Oct 2, 4:23 am, "Matt Macchiarolo" <m...@nospamplease.com> wrote:
>> How many miles since your last transmission service? Did you check the
>> tranny fluid yourself between January and March?
>>
>> "GLB" <g...@imagesbyglb.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:4701c370$0$18931$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> >I have a 2001 GC 45RFE transmission with the 4.7 V8.
>> > Had a trans flush in January at the Jeep dealer.
>> > Up to March the fluid was ok per Jeep when it was in for other repairs,
>> > honestly I didn't check because it never showed any indications of
>> > leaking.
>> > Beginning of June we headed out of town pulling a small trailer. Half
>> > hour
>> > out the trans temp light comes on and check engine light. Putting it in
>> > neutral and running it turned off the trans temp light but it came on
>> > again.
>> > We headed home to swap out the truck for my wifes GC and we continued
>> > on
>> > to
>> > NC from FL without the trailer. Upon return I took the truck to Jeep
>> > and
>> > they said it was 3 quarts low of fluid. Somehow I LOST, 3 quarts of
>> > fluid
>> > in
>> > a couple months without any dripping from the pan or spraying back
>> > behind
>> > the tailshaft. Hmmm . . . .
>> > They cleared the codes, pulled the LEAKING pan, replaced both filters
>> > and
>> > reinstalled the pan. Everything was fine for awhile. Then the tranny
>> > started
>> > acting up again, not shifting right and the fan would come on at a
>> > light
>> > like it was hot. No temp light but it threw a couple codes relating to
>> > front
>> > pump pressure I was told.
>> > Jeep wanted almost 4k for a MOPAR tranny, 3 year 80k warranty. A local
>> > tranny shop put one in (MOPAR, same tranny) for 1k less. 2nd day of
>> > driving
>> > when it was put in gear when cold the tranny would slip like crazy for
>> > about
>> > 30 seconds untill I assume pressure built up and the torque converter
>> > engaged properly. Once warm it shifted OK but honestly my old tranny
>> > with
>> > its issues shifted quieter & smoother.
>>
>> > Question:
>> > 1) Would driving it 3 quarts low cause a problem with the "Front Pump"?
>> > 2) What would cause the NEW tranny to slip so much when first engaged?
>> > I can rev the engine with the tranny engaged (drive or reverse) and its
>> > like
>> > slipping a clutch on a stick shift without the truck hardly moving.
>> > This
>> > only lasts like I said about 20-30 seconds.
>>
>> > Frustrated!
>>
>> > g...@imagesbyglb.com
>>
>> > Pet friendly Vacation in the Smokies
>> >http://www.deepcreekhideaway.com/- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> GLB,
>
> Sounds fishy. Like Bill, I have to raise an eyebrow at the 3 qt.
> figure. Oh well, that's ancient history, right?
>
> Are you _positive_ that it is a brand new unit, and not a factory
> reman'd unit? When I was looking at options a little over a year ago,
> the dealer told me I couldn't get a new trans -- all they used were
> "factory" reman'd units. Hearsay for both of us, I suppose.
>
> Why do I ask? While a lag on shift from P to D or R is not unheard of
> for this trans, it's far more common to see on a high mileage unit....
> 20-30 seconds is a _long_ time for that kind of lag, no matter how
> many miles.....do you get that much delay on every cold or first start
> of the day? If the problem is lessened by putting the transmission in
> neutral for a few seconds before shifting to D or R, you're showing
> signs of a worn or seized front pump bushing...
>
> At any rate, with your symptom and your investment, I'd be heading
> straight back to the transmission shop......
>
> Jon
>

GLB

I guess I made the mistake of trusting my dealer. Never had a problem with
them before. I can't get a straight answer as to how much fluid should be in
there. I've been told 12 quarts, 15 quarts, 13.3 quarts. I never thought to
check the fluid levels after they serviced it because it never showed any
signs of leakage and I've been under the truck. The pan wasn't dripping,
behind the tailshaft is still dry. It's a mystery as to where the fluid, 3
quarts in about 3 months went to. I don't think it was ever there personally
92,505 routine inspection fluid ok
97,386 trans flush (Jan)
95,932 routine inspection fluid ok
103,243 routine inspection fluid ok
105,079 routine inspection, fluid ok
111,469 Trans problems, filters replaces, fluid changed, codes reset
(August)
111.905 more Trans problems & codes set P0868 low line pressure, P0867 line
pressure fault, P0740 TCC out of range, P0218 high temp operation. Suggest
faulty trans front pump

Right now after it sets for 4 hours, when I start it and put it in gear, I
can red line it without it hardly moving. Of course, it won't do that when
it's at the tranny shop. 30 seconds later it's off and running fine (almost)


"Jon" <jongoddard@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1191363788.783122.270960@d55g2000hsg.googlegr oups.com...
> On Oct 2, 4:23 am, "Matt Macchiarolo" <m...@nospamplease.com> wrote:
>> How many miles since your last transmission service? Did you check the
>> tranny fluid yourself between January and March?
>>
>> "GLB" <g...@imagesbyglb.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:4701c370$0$18931$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> >I have a 2001 GC 45RFE transmission with the 4.7 V8.
>> > Had a trans flush in January at the Jeep dealer.
>> > Up to March the fluid was ok per Jeep when it was in for other repairs,
>> > honestly I didn't check because it never showed any indications of
>> > leaking.
>> > Beginning of June we headed out of town pulling a small trailer. Half
>> > hour
>> > out the trans temp light comes on and check engine light. Putting it in
>> > neutral and running it turned off the trans temp light but it came on
>> > again.
>> > We headed home to swap out the truck for my wifes GC and we continued
>> > on
>> > to
>> > NC from FL without the trailer. Upon return I took the truck to Jeep
>> > and
>> > they said it was 3 quarts low of fluid. Somehow I LOST, 3 quarts of
>> > fluid
>> > in
>> > a couple months without any dripping from the pan or spraying back
>> > behind
>> > the tailshaft. Hmmm . . . .
>> > They cleared the codes, pulled the LEAKING pan, replaced both filters
>> > and
>> > reinstalled the pan. Everything was fine for awhile. Then the tranny
>> > started
>> > acting up again, not shifting right and the fan would come on at a
>> > light
>> > like it was hot. No temp light but it threw a couple codes relating to
>> > front
>> > pump pressure I was told.
>> > Jeep wanted almost 4k for a MOPAR tranny, 3 year 80k warranty. A local
>> > tranny shop put one in (MOPAR, same tranny) for 1k less. 2nd day of
>> > driving
>> > when it was put in gear when cold the tranny would slip like crazy for
>> > about
>> > 30 seconds untill I assume pressure built up and the torque converter
>> > engaged properly. Once warm it shifted OK but honestly my old tranny
>> > with
>> > its issues shifted quieter & smoother.
>>
>> > Question:
>> > 1) Would driving it 3 quarts low cause a problem with the "Front Pump"?
>> > 2) What would cause the NEW tranny to slip so much when first engaged?
>> > I can rev the engine with the tranny engaged (drive or reverse) and its
>> > like
>> > slipping a clutch on a stick shift without the truck hardly moving.
>> > This
>> > only lasts like I said about 20-30 seconds.
>>
>> > Frustrated!
>>
>> > g...@imagesbyglb.com
>>
>> > Pet friendly Vacation in the Smokies
>> >http://www.deepcreekhideaway.com/- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> GLB,
>
> Sounds fishy. Like Bill, I have to raise an eyebrow at the 3 qt.
> figure. Oh well, that's ancient history, right?
>
> Are you _positive_ that it is a brand new unit, and not a factory
> reman'd unit? When I was looking at options a little over a year ago,
> the dealer told me I couldn't get a new trans -- all they used were
> "factory" reman'd units. Hearsay for both of us, I suppose.
>
> Why do I ask? While a lag on shift from P to D or R is not unheard of
> for this trans, it's far more common to see on a high mileage unit....
> 20-30 seconds is a _long_ time for that kind of lag, no matter how
> many miles.....do you get that much delay on every cold or first start
> of the day? If the problem is lessened by putting the transmission in
> neutral for a few seconds before shifting to D or R, you're showing
> signs of a worn or seized front pump bushing...
>
> At any rate, with your symptom and your investment, I'd be heading
> straight back to the transmission shop......
>
> Jon
>

GLB

I guess I made the mistake of trusting my dealer. Never had a problem with
them before. I can't get a straight answer as to how much fluid should be in
there. I've been told 12 quarts, 15 quarts, 13.3 quarts. I never thought to
check the fluid levels after they serviced it because it never showed any
signs of leakage and I've been under the truck. The pan wasn't dripping,
behind the tailshaft is still dry. It's a mystery as to where the fluid, 3
quarts in about 3 months went to. I don't think it was ever there personally
92,505 routine inspection fluid ok
97,386 trans flush (Jan)
95,932 routine inspection fluid ok
103,243 routine inspection fluid ok
105,079 routine inspection, fluid ok
111,469 Trans problems, filters replaces, fluid changed, codes reset
(August)
111.905 more Trans problems & codes set P0868 low line pressure, P0867 line
pressure fault, P0740 TCC out of range, P0218 high temp operation. Suggest
faulty trans front pump

Right now after it sets for 4 hours, when I start it and put it in gear, I
can red line it without it hardly moving. Of course, it won't do that when
it's at the tranny shop. 30 seconds later it's off and running fine (almost)


"Jon" <jongoddard@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1191363788.783122.270960@d55g2000hsg.googlegr oups.com...
> On Oct 2, 4:23 am, "Matt Macchiarolo" <m...@nospamplease.com> wrote:
>> How many miles since your last transmission service? Did you check the
>> tranny fluid yourself between January and March?
>>
>> "GLB" <g...@imagesbyglb.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:4701c370$0$18931$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> >I have a 2001 GC 45RFE transmission with the 4.7 V8.
>> > Had a trans flush in January at the Jeep dealer.
>> > Up to March the fluid was ok per Jeep when it was in for other repairs,
>> > honestly I didn't check because it never showed any indications of
>> > leaking.
>> > Beginning of June we headed out of town pulling a small trailer. Half
>> > hour
>> > out the trans temp light comes on and check engine light. Putting it in
>> > neutral and running it turned off the trans temp light but it came on
>> > again.
>> > We headed home to swap out the truck for my wifes GC and we continued
>> > on
>> > to
>> > NC from FL without the trailer. Upon return I took the truck to Jeep
>> > and
>> > they said it was 3 quarts low of fluid. Somehow I LOST, 3 quarts of
>> > fluid
>> > in
>> > a couple months without any dripping from the pan or spraying back
>> > behind
>> > the tailshaft. Hmmm . . . .
>> > They cleared the codes, pulled the LEAKING pan, replaced both filters
>> > and
>> > reinstalled the pan. Everything was fine for awhile. Then the tranny
>> > started
>> > acting up again, not shifting right and the fan would come on at a
>> > light
>> > like it was hot. No temp light but it threw a couple codes relating to
>> > front
>> > pump pressure I was told.
>> > Jeep wanted almost 4k for a MOPAR tranny, 3 year 80k warranty. A local
>> > tranny shop put one in (MOPAR, same tranny) for 1k less. 2nd day of
>> > driving
>> > when it was put in gear when cold the tranny would slip like crazy for
>> > about
>> > 30 seconds untill I assume pressure built up and the torque converter
>> > engaged properly. Once warm it shifted OK but honestly my old tranny
>> > with
>> > its issues shifted quieter & smoother.
>>
>> > Question:
>> > 1) Would driving it 3 quarts low cause a problem with the "Front Pump"?
>> > 2) What would cause the NEW tranny to slip so much when first engaged?
>> > I can rev the engine with the tranny engaged (drive or reverse) and its
>> > like
>> > slipping a clutch on a stick shift without the truck hardly moving.
>> > This
>> > only lasts like I said about 20-30 seconds.
>>
>> > Frustrated!
>>
>> > g...@imagesbyglb.com
>>
>> > Pet friendly Vacation in the Smokies
>> >http://www.deepcreekhideaway.com/- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> GLB,
>
> Sounds fishy. Like Bill, I have to raise an eyebrow at the 3 qt.
> figure. Oh well, that's ancient history, right?
>
> Are you _positive_ that it is a brand new unit, and not a factory
> reman'd unit? When I was looking at options a little over a year ago,
> the dealer told me I couldn't get a new trans -- all they used were
> "factory" reman'd units. Hearsay for both of us, I suppose.
>
> Why do I ask? While a lag on shift from P to D or R is not unheard of
> for this trans, it's far more common to see on a high mileage unit....
> 20-30 seconds is a _long_ time for that kind of lag, no matter how
> many miles.....do you get that much delay on every cold or first start
> of the day? If the problem is lessened by putting the transmission in
> neutral for a few seconds before shifting to D or R, you're showing
> signs of a worn or seized front pump bushing...
>
> At any rate, with your symptom and your investment, I'd be heading
> straight back to the transmission shop......
>
> Jon
>

Mike Romain

GLB wrote:
> I guess I made the mistake of trusting my dealer. Never had a problem with
> them before. I can't get a straight answer as to how much fluid should be in
> there.

It should be up to the FULL mark on the dipstick!

>
> Right now after it sets for 4 hours, when I start it and put it in gear, I
> can red line it without it hardly moving.

Have you checked the fluid level????

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Mike Romain

GLB wrote:
> I guess I made the mistake of trusting my dealer. Never had a problem with
> them before. I can't get a straight answer as to how much fluid should be in
> there.

It should be up to the FULL mark on the dipstick!

>
> Right now after it sets for 4 hours, when I start it and put it in gear, I
> can red line it without it hardly moving.

Have you checked the fluid level????

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Mike Romain

GLB wrote:
> I guess I made the mistake of trusting my dealer. Never had a problem with
> them before. I can't get a straight answer as to how much fluid should be in
> there.

It should be up to the FULL mark on the dipstick!

>
> Right now after it sets for 4 hours, when I start it and put it in gear, I
> can red line it without it hardly moving.

Have you checked the fluid level????

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Mike Romain

GLB wrote:
> I guess I made the mistake of trusting my dealer. Never had a problem with
> them before. I can't get a straight answer as to how much fluid should be in
> there.

It should be up to the FULL mark on the dipstick!

>
> Right now after it sets for 4 hours, when I start it and put it in gear, I
> can red line it without it hardly moving.

Have you checked the fluid level????

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

J. Clarke

Mike Romain wrote:
> GLB wrote:
>> I guess I made the mistake of trusting my dealer. Never had a
>> problem with them before. I can't get a straight answer as to how
>> much fluid should be in there.
>
> It should be up to the FULL mark on the dipstick!

IIRC there's a procedure in the manual for checking it--it's not a
matter of just pulling the dipstick and looking. If you follow the
procedure it should be between the "add" and "full" marks.

>> Right now after it sets for 4 hours, when I start it and put it in
>> gear, I can red line it without it hardly moving.
>
> Have you checked the fluid level????
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)