Brian Foster

Very interesting show on Discovery Times channel last night. Detailed how
Japanese auto makers are really going hard after full size pick up truck
market. Nissan Titan is making big inroads and so is Honda. Japanese had
hard time understanding that Americans just don't like little trucks as much
as we like big trucks. Looks like they finally "got it" and now Detroit is
feeling the pain. PU Truck are some of the most profitable vehicles made by
Detroit.

My own observation: When it comes to innovation the USA has everyone beat.
When it comes to refinement that's where we get caught and sometimes
surpassed by Japan and Europe to a lesser extent.

We can make a Ford Mustang, A Jeep, Dodge Caravan, or a full size PU truck
but then we seem to get complacent and stop the developing and refinement.
That's where the Japanese really get going and make up ground.

Ford & Gm bonds at junk status, not good. Auto industry is so resistant to
change and so slow to react to market forces. UAW not helping the issue
either.

Interesting show if you get a chance to see it. Car designers are very
different people. Very artsy. They need engineers to keep them in reality :)

Ruel Smith

Brian Foster wrote:

> Very interesting show on Discovery Times channel last night. Detailed how
> Japanese auto makers are really going hard after full size pick up truck
> market. Nissan Titan is making big inroads and so is Honda. Japanese had
> hard time understanding that Americans just don't like little trucks as
> much as we like big trucks. Looks like they finally "got it" and now
> Detroit is feeling the pain. PU Truck are some of the most profitable
> vehicles made by Detroit.

Hmmm... Last I heard, the Titan had something like 3-4% of the big truck
market. I don't exactly call that "big inroads". Honda isn't even on the
map. Their Ridgeline has been less than successful so far.

> My own observation: When it comes to innovation the USA has everyone beat.
> When it comes to refinement that's where we get caught and sometimes
> surpassed by Japan and Europe to a lesser extent.

Because the Japanese companese do 2 things differently: 1.) They are very
engineering-central, and are proud of it. 2.) They don't reinvent the wheel
with each new redesign. They simply keep what works, and fix what doesn't.
There's no need to change the design of a fuel pump, for instance, when
it's been a trouble free design and works quite well. The American brands
tend to reengineer everything with massive overhauls of their vehicles.

Though I agree with the Japan reference, in general, I disagree with the
European reference. Anyone can build an awefully nice car for $60K. Doing
it at $30K is a whole different story. European cars with that level of
refinement are very expensive. Witness the BMW 3 series. For more than
$40K, you get a car the size of a Ford Focus with a bit more power and a
bit more 'refinement'. Yes, it handles better, but it's still a very small
car. To beat it all, in a television comparison, the Focus was judged to be
built better and had better reliability than cars from Germany. Now, a nice
Focus can be had for less than half what a BMW 3 series costs. I don't see
this as anything earth shattering from a consumer standpoint. I see it as
an overpriced vehicle.

Now, witness that American cars have long been on the JD Power initial
quality rankings, and certain models have been on the most reliable list
from Consumer Reports. The Chevy Lumina was one of the most reliable cars
on the road. Somehow, though, public perception aways makes people believe
that a Japanese brand is more reliable. Toyota just announced a recall of
over 790,000 cars. If that was GM, the public would point to it and say it
was more evidence that American cars are junk. But it's almost not even a
story being Toyota.

The latest JD Power Inital Quality study has Buick and Cadillac in 4th and
5th positions, respectively, Toyota in 7th, Hummer in 10th, Honda in 12th,
followed by GMC, Lincoln, and Acura. There goes the foreign makers are
better idea... At the bottom of the list were Suzuki, Mazda, Land Rover,
Volkswagen, Porsche, Volvo, then Kia - the formermost being at the very
bottom.

Actually, from 3rd place back, each position is barely better than the
former. So, there's not a huge gap in quality between most brands. See for
yourself:

http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/iqs2005069.asp

> We can make a Ford Mustang, A Jeep, Dodge Caravan, or a full size PU
> truck but then we seem to get complacent and stop the developing and
> refinement. That's where the Japanese really get going and make up ground.

Really? I think this is more perception, and less reality. Ford has done a
good job developing a live rear axle setup that does away with some of the
nasty natural effects of such a setup when bumps are encountered. Older
designs would cause the axle to cause the rear end to sidestep when
encountering a bump in mid-corner. Supposedly, the new Mustang has no such
habits because of improved design.

GM practially invented hydroforming for frame rails and such, drastically
improving the strength of such components. GM vehicles typically have much
better gas mileage compared to similar vehicle offerings with similar
horsepower ratings. Witness the Corvette and the last generation
Camaro/Firbird. The Corvette produces 400 hp, while getting 26 mpg on the
highway. This is unheard of in sports cars. It gets better gas mileage than
just about any sports car with anywhere near that kind of power. Not
Porsche, Ferrari, Acura, Lamborghini, or Dodge can claim that kind of gas
mileage. Similar results are ------ out through the entire GM line. This
was pointed out on Autoline Detroit by the host, and he said that
unfortunately for GM, the word simply hasn't reached the customers. It's a
marketing problem.

> Ford & Gm bonds at junk status, not good. Auto industry is so resistant to
> change and so slow to react to market forces. UAW not helping the issue
> either.

The UAW has nothing to do with it. This is a management problem. GM is
simply the size of a company that should have 30%+ marketshare, when they
have something like 23%. The market is very heavy with competition, and
it's getting worse. When companies like Kia/Hyundai are making cars in
Korea and paying people a pittance to build them, it's a little hard to
compete. This isn't the fault of UAW workers. This is simply a tragedy that
people are willing to buy products produced by companies that pay "sweat
shop" wages. The same goes for people who shop at Walmart. 80% of all items
sold at Walmart are produced in 3rd world countries in sweat shop
conditions. This is simply a crime. We accept the fact because we don't
have to witness it and it makes our products cheap. If they worked like
that in this country, the government would shut them down. This country has
gotten itself in a rat race, where everyone thinks they deserve to live
like a billionaire, but the next guy gets paid too much for what he does.
If you work for a living, you deserve to be paid enough to make a living. I
think current UAW pay is something like $24.50/hr. or something like that.
That equates to about $50K a year on a 40 hr work week. That's not exactly
living high on the hog. Sure, for a blue collar job, it's pretty decent and
there are a lot of people making less. But it's far less than many make,
too, that do a lot less work for it. People in the construction fields make
even more. I think union boilermakers are something like $35/hr. here
locally in the Cincinnati area.

It's interesting that workers in European plants, according to Autoline
Detroit, have benefit and protection plans that the UAW would die for. Yet,
they're not considered unable to compete...

> Interesting show if you get a chance to see it. Car designers are very
> different people. Very artsy. They need engineers to keep them in reality
> :)

True, but it's one point of view. Again, you accept those cheap goods
because you don't have to witness people working 60 - 80 hrs. a week for a
mere $30 or something similar. They typically don't have any retirement
plan, no benefits, and work in less than ideal conditions. But, hey...you
get a nice car for less than $20K...


--

Registered Linux user #378193

Ruel Smith

Brian Foster wrote:

> Very interesting show on Discovery Times channel last night. Detailed how
> Japanese auto makers are really going hard after full size pick up truck
> market. Nissan Titan is making big inroads and so is Honda. Japanese had
> hard time understanding that Americans just don't like little trucks as
> much as we like big trucks. Looks like they finally "got it" and now
> Detroit is feeling the pain. PU Truck are some of the most profitable
> vehicles made by Detroit.

Hmmm... Last I heard, the Titan had something like 3-4% of the big truck
market. I don't exactly call that "big inroads". Honda isn't even on the
map. Their Ridgeline has been less than successful so far.

> My own observation: When it comes to innovation the USA has everyone beat.
> When it comes to refinement that's where we get caught and sometimes
> surpassed by Japan and Europe to a lesser extent.

Because the Japanese companese do 2 things differently: 1.) They are very
engineering-central, and are proud of it. 2.) They don't reinvent the wheel
with each new redesign. They simply keep what works, and fix what doesn't.
There's no need to change the design of a fuel pump, for instance, when
it's been a trouble free design and works quite well. The American brands
tend to reengineer everything with massive overhauls of their vehicles.

Though I agree with the Japan reference, in general, I disagree with the
European reference. Anyone can build an awefully nice car for $60K. Doing
it at $30K is a whole different story. European cars with that level of
refinement are very expensive. Witness the BMW 3 series. For more than
$40K, you get a car the size of a Ford Focus with a bit more power and a
bit more 'refinement'. Yes, it handles better, but it's still a very small
car. To beat it all, in a television comparison, the Focus was judged to be
built better and had better reliability than cars from Germany. Now, a nice
Focus can be had for less than half what a BMW 3 series costs. I don't see
this as anything earth shattering from a consumer standpoint. I see it as
an overpriced vehicle.

Now, witness that American cars have long been on the JD Power initial
quality rankings, and certain models have been on the most reliable list
from Consumer Reports. The Chevy Lumina was one of the most reliable cars
on the road. Somehow, though, public perception aways makes people believe
that a Japanese brand is more reliable. Toyota just announced a recall of
over 790,000 cars. If that was GM, the public would point to it and say it
was more evidence that American cars are junk. But it's almost not even a
story being Toyota.

The latest JD Power Inital Quality study has Buick and Cadillac in 4th and
5th positions, respectively, Toyota in 7th, Hummer in 10th, Honda in 12th,
followed by GMC, Lincoln, and Acura. There goes the foreign makers are
better idea... At the bottom of the list were Suzuki, Mazda, Land Rover,
Volkswagen, Porsche, Volvo, then Kia - the formermost being at the very
bottom.

Actually, from 3rd place back, each position is barely better than the
former. So, there's not a huge gap in quality between most brands. See for
yourself:

http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/iqs2005069.asp

> We can make a Ford Mustang, A Jeep, Dodge Caravan, or a full size PU
> truck but then we seem to get complacent and stop the developing and
> refinement. That's where the Japanese really get going and make up ground.

Really? I think this is more perception, and less reality. Ford has done a
good job developing a live rear axle setup that does away with some of the
nasty natural effects of such a setup when bumps are encountered. Older
designs would cause the axle to cause the rear end to sidestep when
encountering a bump in mid-corner. Supposedly, the new Mustang has no such
habits because of improved design.

GM practially invented hydroforming for frame rails and such, drastically
improving the strength of such components. GM vehicles typically have much
better gas mileage compared to similar vehicle offerings with similar
horsepower ratings. Witness the Corvette and the last generation
Camaro/Firbird. The Corvette produces 400 hp, while getting 26 mpg on the
highway. This is unheard of in sports cars. It gets better gas mileage than
just about any sports car with anywhere near that kind of power. Not
Porsche, Ferrari, Acura, Lamborghini, or Dodge can claim that kind of gas
mileage. Similar results are ------ out through the entire GM line. This
was pointed out on Autoline Detroit by the host, and he said that
unfortunately for GM, the word simply hasn't reached the customers. It's a
marketing problem.

> Ford & Gm bonds at junk status, not good. Auto industry is so resistant to
> change and so slow to react to market forces. UAW not helping the issue
> either.

The UAW has nothing to do with it. This is a management problem. GM is
simply the size of a company that should have 30%+ marketshare, when they
have something like 23%. The market is very heavy with competition, and
it's getting worse. When companies like Kia/Hyundai are making cars in
Korea and paying people a pittance to build them, it's a little hard to
compete. This isn't the fault of UAW workers. This is simply a tragedy that
people are willing to buy products produced by companies that pay "sweat
shop" wages. The same goes for people who shop at Walmart. 80% of all items
sold at Walmart are produced in 3rd world countries in sweat shop
conditions. This is simply a crime. We accept the fact because we don't
have to witness it and it makes our products cheap. If they worked like
that in this country, the government would shut them down. This country has
gotten itself in a rat race, where everyone thinks they deserve to live
like a billionaire, but the next guy gets paid too much for what he does.
If you work for a living, you deserve to be paid enough to make a living. I
think current UAW pay is something like $24.50/hr. or something like that.
That equates to about $50K a year on a 40 hr work week. That's not exactly
living high on the hog. Sure, for a blue collar job, it's pretty decent and
there are a lot of people making less. But it's far less than many make,
too, that do a lot less work for it. People in the construction fields make
even more. I think union boilermakers are something like $35/hr. here
locally in the Cincinnati area.

It's interesting that workers in European plants, according to Autoline
Detroit, have benefit and protection plans that the UAW would die for. Yet,
they're not considered unable to compete...

> Interesting show if you get a chance to see it. Car designers are very
> different people. Very artsy. They need engineers to keep them in reality
> :)

True, but it's one point of view. Again, you accept those cheap goods
because you don't have to witness people working 60 - 80 hrs. a week for a
mere $30 or something similar. They typically don't have any retirement
plan, no benefits, and work in less than ideal conditions. But, hey...you
get a nice car for less than $20K...


--

Registered Linux user #378193

Ruel Smith

Brian Foster wrote:

> Very interesting show on Discovery Times channel last night. Detailed how
> Japanese auto makers are really going hard after full size pick up truck
> market. Nissan Titan is making big inroads and so is Honda. Japanese had
> hard time understanding that Americans just don't like little trucks as
> much as we like big trucks. Looks like they finally "got it" and now
> Detroit is feeling the pain. PU Truck are some of the most profitable
> vehicles made by Detroit.

Hmmm... Last I heard, the Titan had something like 3-4% of the big truck
market. I don't exactly call that "big inroads". Honda isn't even on the
map. Their Ridgeline has been less than successful so far.

> My own observation: When it comes to innovation the USA has everyone beat.
> When it comes to refinement that's where we get caught and sometimes
> surpassed by Japan and Europe to a lesser extent.

Because the Japanese companese do 2 things differently: 1.) They are very
engineering-central, and are proud of it. 2.) They don't reinvent the wheel
with each new redesign. They simply keep what works, and fix what doesn't.
There's no need to change the design of a fuel pump, for instance, when
it's been a trouble free design and works quite well. The American brands
tend to reengineer everything with massive overhauls of their vehicles.

Though I agree with the Japan reference, in general, I disagree with the
European reference. Anyone can build an awefully nice car for $60K. Doing
it at $30K is a whole different story. European cars with that level of
refinement are very expensive. Witness the BMW 3 series. For more than
$40K, you get a car the size of a Ford Focus with a bit more power and a
bit more 'refinement'. Yes, it handles better, but it's still a very small
car. To beat it all, in a television comparison, the Focus was judged to be
built better and had better reliability than cars from Germany. Now, a nice
Focus can be had for less than half what a BMW 3 series costs. I don't see
this as anything earth shattering from a consumer standpoint. I see it as
an overpriced vehicle.

Now, witness that American cars have long been on the JD Power initial
quality rankings, and certain models have been on the most reliable list
from Consumer Reports. The Chevy Lumina was one of the most reliable cars
on the road. Somehow, though, public perception aways makes people believe
that a Japanese brand is more reliable. Toyota just announced a recall of
over 790,000 cars. If that was GM, the public would point to it and say it
was more evidence that American cars are junk. But it's almost not even a
story being Toyota.

The latest JD Power Inital Quality study has Buick and Cadillac in 4th and
5th positions, respectively, Toyota in 7th, Hummer in 10th, Honda in 12th,
followed by GMC, Lincoln, and Acura. There goes the foreign makers are
better idea... At the bottom of the list were Suzuki, Mazda, Land Rover,
Volkswagen, Porsche, Volvo, then Kia - the formermost being at the very
bottom.

Actually, from 3rd place back, each position is barely better than the
former. So, there's not a huge gap in quality between most brands. See for
yourself:

http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/iqs2005069.asp

> We can make a Ford Mustang, A Jeep, Dodge Caravan, or a full size PU
> truck but then we seem to get complacent and stop the developing and
> refinement. That's where the Japanese really get going and make up ground.

Really? I think this is more perception, and less reality. Ford has done a
good job developing a live rear axle setup that does away with some of the
nasty natural effects of such a setup when bumps are encountered. Older
designs would cause the axle to cause the rear end to sidestep when
encountering a bump in mid-corner. Supposedly, the new Mustang has no such
habits because of improved design.

GM practially invented hydroforming for frame rails and such, drastically
improving the strength of such components. GM vehicles typically have much
better gas mileage compared to similar vehicle offerings with similar
horsepower ratings. Witness the Corvette and the last generation
Camaro/Firbird. The Corvette produces 400 hp, while getting 26 mpg on the
highway. This is unheard of in sports cars. It gets better gas mileage than
just about any sports car with anywhere near that kind of power. Not
Porsche, Ferrari, Acura, Lamborghini, or Dodge can claim that kind of gas
mileage. Similar results are ------ out through the entire GM line. This
was pointed out on Autoline Detroit by the host, and he said that
unfortunately for GM, the word simply hasn't reached the customers. It's a
marketing problem.

> Ford & Gm bonds at junk status, not good. Auto industry is so resistant to
> change and so slow to react to market forces. UAW not helping the issue
> either.

The UAW has nothing to do with it. This is a management problem. GM is
simply the size of a company that should have 30%+ marketshare, when they
have something like 23%. The market is very heavy with competition, and
it's getting worse. When companies like Kia/Hyundai are making cars in
Korea and paying people a pittance to build them, it's a little hard to
compete. This isn't the fault of UAW workers. This is simply a tragedy that
people are willing to buy products produced by companies that pay "sweat
shop" wages. The same goes for people who shop at Walmart. 80% of all items
sold at Walmart are produced in 3rd world countries in sweat shop
conditions. This is simply a crime. We accept the fact because we don't
have to witness it and it makes our products cheap. If they worked like
that in this country, the government would shut them down. This country has
gotten itself in a rat race, where everyone thinks they deserve to live
like a billionaire, but the next guy gets paid too much for what he does.
If you work for a living, you deserve to be paid enough to make a living. I
think current UAW pay is something like $24.50/hr. or something like that.
That equates to about $50K a year on a 40 hr work week. That's not exactly
living high on the hog. Sure, for a blue collar job, it's pretty decent and
there are a lot of people making less. But it's far less than many make,
too, that do a lot less work for it. People in the construction fields make
even more. I think union boilermakers are something like $35/hr. here
locally in the Cincinnati area.

It's interesting that workers in European plants, according to Autoline
Detroit, have benefit and protection plans that the UAW would die for. Yet,
they're not considered unable to compete...

> Interesting show if you get a chance to see it. Car designers are very
> different people. Very artsy. They need engineers to keep them in reality
> :)

True, but it's one point of view. Again, you accept those cheap goods
because you don't have to witness people working 60 - 80 hrs. a week for a
mere $30 or something similar. They typically don't have any retirement
plan, no benefits, and work in less than ideal conditions. But, hey...you
get a nice car for less than $20K...


--

Registered Linux user #378193

Ruel Smith

Brian Foster wrote:

> Very interesting show on Discovery Times channel last night. Detailed how
> Japanese auto makers are really going hard after full size pick up truck
> market. Nissan Titan is making big inroads and so is Honda. Japanese had
> hard time understanding that Americans just don't like little trucks as
> much as we like big trucks. Looks like they finally "got it" and now
> Detroit is feeling the pain. PU Truck are some of the most profitable
> vehicles made by Detroit.

Hmmm... Last I heard, the Titan had something like 3-4% of the big truck
market. I don't exactly call that "big inroads". Honda isn't even on the
map. Their Ridgeline has been less than successful so far.

> My own observation: When it comes to innovation the USA has everyone beat.
> When it comes to refinement that's where we get caught and sometimes
> surpassed by Japan and Europe to a lesser extent.

Because the Japanese companese do 2 things differently: 1.) They are very
engineering-central, and are proud of it. 2.) They don't reinvent the wheel
with each new redesign. They simply keep what works, and fix what doesn't.
There's no need to change the design of a fuel pump, for instance, when
it's been a trouble free design and works quite well. The American brands
tend to reengineer everything with massive overhauls of their vehicles.

Though I agree with the Japan reference, in general, I disagree with the
European reference. Anyone can build an awefully nice car for $60K. Doing
it at $30K is a whole different story. European cars with that level of
refinement are very expensive. Witness the BMW 3 series. For more than
$40K, you get a car the size of a Ford Focus with a bit more power and a
bit more 'refinement'. Yes, it handles better, but it's still a very small
car. To beat it all, in a television comparison, the Focus was judged to be
built better and had better reliability than cars from Germany. Now, a nice
Focus can be had for less than half what a BMW 3 series costs. I don't see
this as anything earth shattering from a consumer standpoint. I see it as
an overpriced vehicle.

Now, witness that American cars have long been on the JD Power initial
quality rankings, and certain models have been on the most reliable list
from Consumer Reports. The Chevy Lumina was one of the most reliable cars
on the road. Somehow, though, public perception aways makes people believe
that a Japanese brand is more reliable. Toyota just announced a recall of
over 790,000 cars. If that was GM, the public would point to it and say it
was more evidence that American cars are junk. But it's almost not even a
story being Toyota.

The latest JD Power Inital Quality study has Buick and Cadillac in 4th and
5th positions, respectively, Toyota in 7th, Hummer in 10th, Honda in 12th,
followed by GMC, Lincoln, and Acura. There goes the foreign makers are
better idea... At the bottom of the list were Suzuki, Mazda, Land Rover,
Volkswagen, Porsche, Volvo, then Kia - the formermost being at the very
bottom.

Actually, from 3rd place back, each position is barely better than the
former. So, there's not a huge gap in quality between most brands. See for
yourself:

http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/iqs2005069.asp

> We can make a Ford Mustang, A Jeep, Dodge Caravan, or a full size PU
> truck but then we seem to get complacent and stop the developing and
> refinement. That's where the Japanese really get going and make up ground.

Really? I think this is more perception, and less reality. Ford has done a
good job developing a live rear axle setup that does away with some of the
nasty natural effects of such a setup when bumps are encountered. Older
designs would cause the axle to cause the rear end to sidestep when
encountering a bump in mid-corner. Supposedly, the new Mustang has no such
habits because of improved design.

GM practially invented hydroforming for frame rails and such, drastically
improving the strength of such components. GM vehicles typically have much
better gas mileage compared to similar vehicle offerings with similar
horsepower ratings. Witness the Corvette and the last generation
Camaro/Firbird. The Corvette produces 400 hp, while getting 26 mpg on the
highway. This is unheard of in sports cars. It gets better gas mileage than
just about any sports car with anywhere near that kind of power. Not
Porsche, Ferrari, Acura, Lamborghini, or Dodge can claim that kind of gas
mileage. Similar results are ------ out through the entire GM line. This
was pointed out on Autoline Detroit by the host, and he said that
unfortunately for GM, the word simply hasn't reached the customers. It's a
marketing problem.

> Ford & Gm bonds at junk status, not good. Auto industry is so resistant to
> change and so slow to react to market forces. UAW not helping the issue
> either.

The UAW has nothing to do with it. This is a management problem. GM is
simply the size of a company that should have 30%+ marketshare, when they
have something like 23%. The market is very heavy with competition, and
it's getting worse. When companies like Kia/Hyundai are making cars in
Korea and paying people a pittance to build them, it's a little hard to
compete. This isn't the fault of UAW workers. This is simply a tragedy that
people are willing to buy products produced by companies that pay "sweat
shop" wages. The same goes for people who shop at Walmart. 80% of all items
sold at Walmart are produced in 3rd world countries in sweat shop
conditions. This is simply a crime. We accept the fact because we don't
have to witness it and it makes our products cheap. If they worked like
that in this country, the government would shut them down. This country has
gotten itself in a rat race, where everyone thinks they deserve to live
like a billionaire, but the next guy gets paid too much for what he does.
If you work for a living, you deserve to be paid enough to make a living. I
think current UAW pay is something like $24.50/hr. or something like that.
That equates to about $50K a year on a 40 hr work week. That's not exactly
living high on the hog. Sure, for a blue collar job, it's pretty decent and
there are a lot of people making less. But it's far less than many make,
too, that do a lot less work for it. People in the construction fields make
even more. I think union boilermakers are something like $35/hr. here
locally in the Cincinnati area.

It's interesting that workers in European plants, according to Autoline
Detroit, have benefit and protection plans that the UAW would die for. Yet,
they're not considered unable to compete...

> Interesting show if you get a chance to see it. Car designers are very
> different people. Very artsy. They need engineers to keep them in reality
> :)

True, but it's one point of view. Again, you accept those cheap goods
because you don't have to witness people working 60 - 80 hrs. a week for a
mere $30 or something similar. They typically don't have any retirement
plan, no benefits, and work in less than ideal conditions. But, hey...you
get a nice car for less than $20K...


--

Registered Linux user #378193

Jeff Strickland

Real Truck Owners wouldn't be caught dead in a Japanese pick up truck. I
suspect the Japanese trucks will sell OK in California, in the cities, but
out in the country where trucks are trucks and men are men, the domestics
will rein supreme for a long time to come.




"Brian Foster" <brianfoster@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:feske.130612$AE6.77261@tornado.texas.rr.com.. .
> Very interesting show on Discovery Times channel last night. Detailed how
> Japanese auto makers are really going hard after full size pick up truck
> market. Nissan Titan is making big inroads and so is Honda. Japanese had
> hard time understanding that Americans just don't like little trucks as
much
> as we like big trucks. Looks like they finally "got it" and now Detroit is
> feeling the pain. PU Truck are some of the most profitable vehicles made
by
> Detroit.
>
> My own observation: When it comes to innovation the USA has everyone beat.
> When it comes to refinement that's where we get caught and sometimes
> surpassed by Japan and Europe to a lesser extent.
>
> We can make a Ford Mustang, A Jeep, Dodge Caravan, or a full size PU
truck
> but then we seem to get complacent and stop the developing and refinement.
> That's where the Japanese really get going and make up ground.
>
> Ford & Gm bonds at junk status, not good. Auto industry is so resistant to
> change and so slow to react to market forces. UAW not helping the issue
> either.
>
> Interesting show if you get a chance to see it. Car designers are very
> different people. Very artsy. They need engineers to keep them in reality
:)
>
>

Jeff Strickland

Real Truck Owners wouldn't be caught dead in a Japanese pick up truck. I
suspect the Japanese trucks will sell OK in California, in the cities, but
out in the country where trucks are trucks and men are men, the domestics
will rein supreme for a long time to come.




"Brian Foster" <brianfoster@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:feske.130612$AE6.77261@tornado.texas.rr.com.. .
> Very interesting show on Discovery Times channel last night. Detailed how
> Japanese auto makers are really going hard after full size pick up truck
> market. Nissan Titan is making big inroads and so is Honda. Japanese had
> hard time understanding that Americans just don't like little trucks as
much
> as we like big trucks. Looks like they finally "got it" and now Detroit is
> feeling the pain. PU Truck are some of the most profitable vehicles made
by
> Detroit.
>
> My own observation: When it comes to innovation the USA has everyone beat.
> When it comes to refinement that's where we get caught and sometimes
> surpassed by Japan and Europe to a lesser extent.
>
> We can make a Ford Mustang, A Jeep, Dodge Caravan, or a full size PU
truck
> but then we seem to get complacent and stop the developing and refinement.
> That's where the Japanese really get going and make up ground.
>
> Ford & Gm bonds at junk status, not good. Auto industry is so resistant to
> change and so slow to react to market forces. UAW not helping the issue
> either.
>
> Interesting show if you get a chance to see it. Car designers are very
> different people. Very artsy. They need engineers to keep them in reality
:)
>
>

Jeff Strickland

Real Truck Owners wouldn't be caught dead in a Japanese pick up truck. I
suspect the Japanese trucks will sell OK in California, in the cities, but
out in the country where trucks are trucks and men are men, the domestics
will rein supreme for a long time to come.




"Brian Foster" <brianfoster@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:feske.130612$AE6.77261@tornado.texas.rr.com.. .
> Very interesting show on Discovery Times channel last night. Detailed how
> Japanese auto makers are really going hard after full size pick up truck
> market. Nissan Titan is making big inroads and so is Honda. Japanese had
> hard time understanding that Americans just don't like little trucks as
much
> as we like big trucks. Looks like they finally "got it" and now Detroit is
> feeling the pain. PU Truck are some of the most profitable vehicles made
by
> Detroit.
>
> My own observation: When it comes to innovation the USA has everyone beat.
> When it comes to refinement that's where we get caught and sometimes
> surpassed by Japan and Europe to a lesser extent.
>
> We can make a Ford Mustang, A Jeep, Dodge Caravan, or a full size PU
truck
> but then we seem to get complacent and stop the developing and refinement.
> That's where the Japanese really get going and make up ground.
>
> Ford & Gm bonds at junk status, not good. Auto industry is so resistant to
> change and so slow to react to market forces. UAW not helping the issue
> either.
>
> Interesting show if you get a chance to see it. Car designers are very
> different people. Very artsy. They need engineers to keep them in reality
:)
>
>

Jeff Strickland

Real Truck Owners wouldn't be caught dead in a Japanese pick up truck. I
suspect the Japanese trucks will sell OK in California, in the cities, but
out in the country where trucks are trucks and men are men, the domestics
will rein supreme for a long time to come.




"Brian Foster" <brianfoster@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:feske.130612$AE6.77261@tornado.texas.rr.com.. .
> Very interesting show on Discovery Times channel last night. Detailed how
> Japanese auto makers are really going hard after full size pick up truck
> market. Nissan Titan is making big inroads and so is Honda. Japanese had
> hard time understanding that Americans just don't like little trucks as
much
> as we like big trucks. Looks like they finally "got it" and now Detroit is
> feeling the pain. PU Truck are some of the most profitable vehicles made
by
> Detroit.
>
> My own observation: When it comes to innovation the USA has everyone beat.
> When it comes to refinement that's where we get caught and sometimes
> surpassed by Japan and Europe to a lesser extent.
>
> We can make a Ford Mustang, A Jeep, Dodge Caravan, or a full size PU
truck
> but then we seem to get complacent and stop the developing and refinement.
> That's where the Japanese really get going and make up ground.
>
> Ford & Gm bonds at junk status, not good. Auto industry is so resistant to
> change and so slow to react to market forces. UAW not helping the issue
> either.
>
> Interesting show if you get a chance to see it. Car designers are very
> different people. Very artsy. They need engineers to keep them in reality
:)
>
>

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

Ditto. Ninety percent of every Ford or GM truck every made is still
one the road. They're south of the border, or out in Cuba, if you're
wondering where they're at.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Jeff Strickland wrote:
>
> Real Truck Owners wouldn't be caught dead in a Japanese pick up truck. I
> suspect the Japanese trucks will sell OK in California, in the cities, but
> out in the country where trucks are trucks and men are men, the domestics
> will rein supreme for a long time to come.