Re: cold start sluggishness
 

Outatime proclaimed:

> L.W.(Bill) ------ III wrote:
>
>> Blocking off the Exhaust Gases Recirculation valve, isn't really a
>> bad idea, I use a plug hidden inside the vacuum hose and a plate under
>> the valves. Upon inspection it just must look as though it works, it
>
>
> I used to do this back in the 70's and 80's too. I figured that
> sticking it to The Man was a good thing, and that if it ran better, what
> the hell.

Some folks used little soft plastic plugs or balls...if they did get
into the engine they wouldn't cause any harm.
>
> Fact is, every engine I ever did that to (that was carburated) ended up
> running too rich. It ran better, but too rich. I rejetted an old 318
> Dodge motor that I'd de-EGR'ed, and it was better, but then when the
> Smog Nazi hooked up a vacuum tester to the EGR and discovered my
> handiwork, it cost me $50 bucks to undo the thing, rejet and retest.
> Bleh. Big hassle.

If you have two hoses, put the block in one, then swap for the smog
test. Experienced smog operators could spot the disabled or reduced EGR
just by listening to your engine as you drove in.

>
> Doing this on an OBD-II controlled motor will set codes and make your
> dash light up like a Christmas tree. You can still get away with it on
> an OBD-I motor that is fuel injected without a problem, but just
> remember to undo it when the time comes.
>
> EGR valves are old-school. You'd think that by now, they'd be
> unnessasary; creating a deliberate exhaust gas leak into the intake is
> like throwing a wet blanket on a fire.

Reduces nitrous oxide. Hopefully somebody will figure a better way, as
there is pretty good fuel savings running with higher compression and
combustion but that also increases NOx...and with the new congress
already blowing about "environment" this doesn't look like good times
ahead for auto enthusiasts.
>
> Now you have me thinking about installing a 'block-off' gasket on the TJ
> just to see if it would run better and get better mileage. A block-off
> wouldn't set a code (shouldn't?), and it won't run rich either.

Think most systems do check for the amount of exhaust being
recirculated, so would expect a code on most mods. With modern FI it
tends not to be as bad as the older stuff when EGR first started.

>

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

Outatime proclaimed:

> L.W.(Bill) ------ III wrote:
>
>> Blocking off the Exhaust Gases Recirculation valve, isn't really a
>> bad idea, I use a plug hidden inside the vacuum hose and a plate under
>> the valves. Upon inspection it just must look as though it works, it
>
>
> I used to do this back in the 70's and 80's too. I figured that
> sticking it to The Man was a good thing, and that if it ran better, what
> the hell.

Some folks used little soft plastic plugs or balls...if they did get
into the engine they wouldn't cause any harm.
>
> Fact is, every engine I ever did that to (that was carburated) ended up
> running too rich. It ran better, but too rich. I rejetted an old 318
> Dodge motor that I'd de-EGR'ed, and it was better, but then when the
> Smog Nazi hooked up a vacuum tester to the EGR and discovered my
> handiwork, it cost me $50 bucks to undo the thing, rejet and retest.
> Bleh. Big hassle.

If you have two hoses, put the block in one, then swap for the smog
test. Experienced smog operators could spot the disabled or reduced EGR
just by listening to your engine as you drove in.

>
> Doing this on an OBD-II controlled motor will set codes and make your
> dash light up like a Christmas tree. You can still get away with it on
> an OBD-I motor that is fuel injected without a problem, but just
> remember to undo it when the time comes.
>
> EGR valves are old-school. You'd think that by now, they'd be
> unnessasary; creating a deliberate exhaust gas leak into the intake is
> like throwing a wet blanket on a fire.

Reduces nitrous oxide. Hopefully somebody will figure a better way, as
there is pretty good fuel savings running with higher compression and
combustion but that also increases NOx...and with the new congress
already blowing about "environment" this doesn't look like good times
ahead for auto enthusiasts.
>
> Now you have me thinking about installing a 'block-off' gasket on the TJ
> just to see if it would run better and get better mileage. A block-off
> wouldn't set a code (shouldn't?), and it won't run rich either.

Think most systems do check for the amount of exhaust being
recirculated, so would expect a code on most mods. With modern FI it
tends not to be as bad as the older stuff when EGR first started.

>

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

Outatime proclaimed:

> L.W.(Bill) ------ III wrote:
>
>> Blocking off the Exhaust Gases Recirculation valve, isn't really a
>> bad idea, I use a plug hidden inside the vacuum hose and a plate under
>> the valves. Upon inspection it just must look as though it works, it
>
>
> I used to do this back in the 70's and 80's too. I figured that
> sticking it to The Man was a good thing, and that if it ran better, what
> the hell.

Some folks used little soft plastic plugs or balls...if they did get
into the engine they wouldn't cause any harm.
>
> Fact is, every engine I ever did that to (that was carburated) ended up
> running too rich. It ran better, but too rich. I rejetted an old 318
> Dodge motor that I'd de-EGR'ed, and it was better, but then when the
> Smog Nazi hooked up a vacuum tester to the EGR and discovered my
> handiwork, it cost me $50 bucks to undo the thing, rejet and retest.
> Bleh. Big hassle.

If you have two hoses, put the block in one, then swap for the smog
test. Experienced smog operators could spot the disabled or reduced EGR
just by listening to your engine as you drove in.

>
> Doing this on an OBD-II controlled motor will set codes and make your
> dash light up like a Christmas tree. You can still get away with it on
> an OBD-I motor that is fuel injected without a problem, but just
> remember to undo it when the time comes.
>
> EGR valves are old-school. You'd think that by now, they'd be
> unnessasary; creating a deliberate exhaust gas leak into the intake is
> like throwing a wet blanket on a fire.

Reduces nitrous oxide. Hopefully somebody will figure a better way, as
there is pretty good fuel savings running with higher compression and
combustion but that also increases NOx...and with the new congress
already blowing about "environment" this doesn't look like good times
ahead for auto enthusiasts.
>
> Now you have me thinking about installing a 'block-off' gasket on the TJ
> just to see if it would run better and get better mileage. A block-off
> wouldn't set a code (shouldn't?), and it won't run rich either.

Think most systems do check for the amount of exhaust being
recirculated, so would expect a code on most mods. With modern FI it
tends not to be as bad as the older stuff when EGR first started.

>

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

bllsht wrote:

> Lack of EGR will not cause a rich condition, injected or not.

It did on my old 78 Dodge with the 'lean burn' system; it was set up so
that the valve was wide open at any throttle setting except idle, and
the mains were oversized a bit to compensate. After rejetting, I ended
up with better throttle response and another 1.5 mpg, which was a big
deal because it only got 10 mpg to begin with.

Another old '74 wagon I drove ran like a champ with the vacuum tube
removed. No one I knew ever left theirs hooked up. I know the vacuum
controls on EGRs now are more refined, but the idea of shoving exhaust
gasses back into an engine to lower combustinon temps still seems silly
to me. Even water injection made more sense to me.

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

bllsht wrote:

> Lack of EGR will not cause a rich condition, injected or not.

It did on my old 78 Dodge with the 'lean burn' system; it was set up so
that the valve was wide open at any throttle setting except idle, and
the mains were oversized a bit to compensate. After rejetting, I ended
up with better throttle response and another 1.5 mpg, which was a big
deal because it only got 10 mpg to begin with.

Another old '74 wagon I drove ran like a champ with the vacuum tube
removed. No one I knew ever left theirs hooked up. I know the vacuum
controls on EGRs now are more refined, but the idea of shoving exhaust
gasses back into an engine to lower combustinon temps still seems silly
to me. Even water injection made more sense to me.

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

bllsht wrote:

> Lack of EGR will not cause a rich condition, injected or not.

It did on my old 78 Dodge with the 'lean burn' system; it was set up so
that the valve was wide open at any throttle setting except idle, and
the mains were oversized a bit to compensate. After rejetting, I ended
up with better throttle response and another 1.5 mpg, which was a big
deal because it only got 10 mpg to begin with.

Another old '74 wagon I drove ran like a champ with the vacuum tube
removed. No one I knew ever left theirs hooked up. I know the vacuum
controls on EGRs now are more refined, but the idea of shoving exhaust
gasses back into an engine to lower combustinon temps still seems silly
to me. Even water injection made more sense to me.

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

Lon wrote:

> Think most systems do check for the amount of exhaust being
> recirculated, so would expect a code on most mods. With modern FI it
> tends not to be as bad as the older stuff when EGR first started.

Figures. I'll probably get a code, but I'd like to see how much better
it runs just for laughs. There's always a way to get around something
if you really want to. Truckers figured out a long time ago that
getting around computer governors was an easy task, IF you didn't mind
the speedometer being disabled. Nowadays we get a code set on that too
if we mess with input sensors.

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

Lon wrote:

> Think most systems do check for the amount of exhaust being
> recirculated, so would expect a code on most mods. With modern FI it
> tends not to be as bad as the older stuff when EGR first started.

Figures. I'll probably get a code, but I'd like to see how much better
it runs just for laughs. There's always a way to get around something
if you really want to. Truckers figured out a long time ago that
getting around computer governors was an easy task, IF you didn't mind
the speedometer being disabled. Nowadays we get a code set on that too
if we mess with input sensors.

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

Lon wrote:

> Think most systems do check for the amount of exhaust being
> recirculated, so would expect a code on most mods. With modern FI it
> tends not to be as bad as the older stuff when EGR first started.

Figures. I'll probably get a code, but I'd like to see how much better
it runs just for laughs. There's always a way to get around something
if you really want to. Truckers figured out a long time ago that
getting around computer governors was an easy task, IF you didn't mind
the speedometer being disabled. Nowadays we get a code set on that too
if we mess with input sensors.

Re: "SW" Here's a Goodie! Re: cold start sluggishness
 

There you go again, the jealous, REALLY JEALOUS, over the fact that
I once own a '37 Lasalle, what a jealous little draft dodging senile
coward from Gulf Breeze, Florida, who's only way to get attention is to
make a fool of it's self. With this goat obsession/fetish you have. Like
when the other kids laughed at it's attempt to use foul language in
elementary school play grounds, but just gibberish. Too senile to
remember what he last wrote. You remind me of a little rat dog, like a
Mexican Chiwawa with it's senseless barking, me too, me too. And as
usually afraid to use your name, address, or even sign your statement as
any man would.
Again you don't even have the fortitude to sign your lies, what
coward!
You're not worth any more time when a cut and paste this same
paragraph it fits so well!
But now worth the time to forward this low life to: abuse@mchsi.com
and to cox,net to nail 4ax.com (databasix.com)
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

"24Bit®" wrote:
><snip jealous senile babbling over my accomplishments and conquests>

Re: "SW" Here's a Goodie! Re: cold start sluggishness
 

There you go again, the jealous, REALLY JEALOUS, over the fact that
I once own a '37 Lasalle, what a jealous little draft dodging senile
coward from Gulf Breeze, Florida, who's only way to get attention is to
make a fool of it's self. With this goat obsession/fetish you have. Like
when the other kids laughed at it's attempt to use foul language in
elementary school play grounds, but just gibberish. Too senile to
remember what he last wrote. You remind me of a little rat dog, like a
Mexican Chiwawa with it's senseless barking, me too, me too. And as
usually afraid to use your name, address, or even sign your statement as
any man would.
Again you don't even have the fortitude to sign your lies, what
coward!
You're not worth any more time when a cut and paste this same
paragraph it fits so well!
But now worth the time to forward this low life to: abuse@mchsi.com
and to cox,net to nail 4ax.com (databasix.com)
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

"24Bit®" wrote:
><snip jealous senile babbling over my accomplishments and conquests>

Re: "SW" Here's a Goodie! Re: cold start sluggishness
 

There you go again, the jealous, REALLY JEALOUS, over the fact that
I once own a '37 Lasalle, what a jealous little draft dodging senile
coward from Gulf Breeze, Florida, who's only way to get attention is to
make a fool of it's self. With this goat obsession/fetish you have. Like
when the other kids laughed at it's attempt to use foul language in
elementary school play grounds, but just gibberish. Too senile to
remember what he last wrote. You remind me of a little rat dog, like a
Mexican Chiwawa with it's senseless barking, me too, me too. And as
usually afraid to use your name, address, or even sign your statement as
any man would.
Again you don't even have the fortitude to sign your lies, what
coward!
You're not worth any more time when a cut and paste this same
paragraph it fits so well!
But now worth the time to forward this low life to: abuse@mchsi.com
and to cox,net to nail 4ax.com (databasix.com)
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

"24Bit®" wrote:
><snip jealous senile babbling over my accomplishments and conquests>

Re: "SW" Here's a Goodie! Re: cold start sluggishness
 

I believe most people were raised by their parents to take
responsibility and make their own decisions.
There you go again, the jealous, REALLY JEALOUS, over the fact that
I once own a '37 Lasalle, what a jealous little draft dodging senile
coward from Gulf Breeze, Florida, who's only way to get attention is to
make a fool of it's self. With this goat obsession/fetish you have. Like
when the other kids laughed at it's attempt to use foul language in
elementary school play grounds, but just gibberish. Too senile to
remember what he last wrote. You remind me of a little rat dog, like a
Mexican Chiwawa with it's senseless barking, me too, me too. And as
usually afraid to use your name, address, or even sign your statement as
any man would.
Again you don't even have the fortitude to sign your lies, what
coward!
You're not worth any more time when a cut and paste this same
paragraph it fits so well!
But now worth the time to forward this low life to: abuse@mchsi.com
and to cox,net to nail 4ax.com (databasix.com)
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

"24Bit®" wrote:
><snip jealous senile babbling over my accomplishments and conquests>

Re: "SW" Here's a Goodie! Re: cold start sluggishness
 

I believe most people were raised by their parents to take
responsibility and make their own decisions.
There you go again, the jealous, REALLY JEALOUS, over the fact that
I once own a '37 Lasalle, what a jealous little draft dodging senile
coward from Gulf Breeze, Florida, who's only way to get attention is to
make a fool of it's self. With this goat obsession/fetish you have. Like
when the other kids laughed at it's attempt to use foul language in
elementary school play grounds, but just gibberish. Too senile to
remember what he last wrote. You remind me of a little rat dog, like a
Mexican Chiwawa with it's senseless barking, me too, me too. And as
usually afraid to use your name, address, or even sign your statement as
any man would.
Again you don't even have the fortitude to sign your lies, what
coward!
You're not worth any more time when a cut and paste this same
paragraph it fits so well!
But now worth the time to forward this low life to: abuse@mchsi.com
and to cox,net to nail 4ax.com (databasix.com)
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

"24Bit®" wrote:
><snip jealous senile babbling over my accomplishments and conquests>

Re: "SW" Here's a Goodie! Re: cold start sluggishness
 

I believe most people were raised by their parents to take
responsibility and make their own decisions.
There you go again, the jealous, REALLY JEALOUS, over the fact that
I once own a '37 Lasalle, what a jealous little draft dodging senile
coward from Gulf Breeze, Florida, who's only way to get attention is to
make a fool of it's self. With this goat obsession/fetish you have. Like
when the other kids laughed at it's attempt to use foul language in
elementary school play grounds, but just gibberish. Too senile to
remember what he last wrote. You remind me of a little rat dog, like a
Mexican Chiwawa with it's senseless barking, me too, me too. And as
usually afraid to use your name, address, or even sign your statement as
any man would.
Again you don't even have the fortitude to sign your lies, what
coward!
You're not worth any more time when a cut and paste this same
paragraph it fits so well!
But now worth the time to forward this low life to: abuse@mchsi.com
and to cox,net to nail 4ax.com (databasix.com)
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

"24Bit®" wrote:
><snip jealous senile babbling over my accomplishments and conquests>

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:51:07 -0800, Outatime <user@example.net> wrote:

>bllsht wrote:
>
>> Lack of EGR will not cause a rich condition, injected or not.
>
>It did on my old 78 Dodge with the 'lean burn' system; it was set up so
>that the valve was wide open at any throttle setting except idle, and
>the mains were oversized a bit to compensate. After rejetting, I ended
>up with better throttle response and another 1.5 mpg, which was a big
>deal because it only got 10 mpg to begin with.

Since EGR doesn't cause a lean condition, larger jets would do nothing
to 'compensate' for it. Exhaust gas is inert. It doesn't change the
mixture, it only takes up space to keep peak combustion temperature
down.

>
>Another old '74 wagon I drove ran like a champ with the vacuum tube
>removed. No one I knew ever left theirs hooked up. I know the vacuum
>controls on EGRs now are more refined, but the idea of shoving exhaust
>gasses back into an engine to lower combustinon temps still seems silly
>to me. Even water injection made more sense to me.

No doubt EGR in the 70s & 80s wasn't good, but today, you probably
wouldn't notice a difference by disconnecting it. Other than the MIL
being on, that is.

I always wondered about water injection too. Perhaps it's more costly,
or has other drawbacks. Maybe the water vapor that gets past the rings
condensing in the combustion chamber could be a problem.

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:51:07 -0800, Outatime <user@example.net> wrote:

>bllsht wrote:
>
>> Lack of EGR will not cause a rich condition, injected or not.
>
>It did on my old 78 Dodge with the 'lean burn' system; it was set up so
>that the valve was wide open at any throttle setting except idle, and
>the mains were oversized a bit to compensate. After rejetting, I ended
>up with better throttle response and another 1.5 mpg, which was a big
>deal because it only got 10 mpg to begin with.

Since EGR doesn't cause a lean condition, larger jets would do nothing
to 'compensate' for it. Exhaust gas is inert. It doesn't change the
mixture, it only takes up space to keep peak combustion temperature
down.

>
>Another old '74 wagon I drove ran like a champ with the vacuum tube
>removed. No one I knew ever left theirs hooked up. I know the vacuum
>controls on EGRs now are more refined, but the idea of shoving exhaust
>gasses back into an engine to lower combustinon temps still seems silly
>to me. Even water injection made more sense to me.

No doubt EGR in the 70s & 80s wasn't good, but today, you probably
wouldn't notice a difference by disconnecting it. Other than the MIL
being on, that is.

I always wondered about water injection too. Perhaps it's more costly,
or has other drawbacks. Maybe the water vapor that gets past the rings
condensing in the combustion chamber could be a problem.

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:51:07 -0800, Outatime <user@example.net> wrote:

>bllsht wrote:
>
>> Lack of EGR will not cause a rich condition, injected or not.
>
>It did on my old 78 Dodge with the 'lean burn' system; it was set up so
>that the valve was wide open at any throttle setting except idle, and
>the mains were oversized a bit to compensate. After rejetting, I ended
>up with better throttle response and another 1.5 mpg, which was a big
>deal because it only got 10 mpg to begin with.

Since EGR doesn't cause a lean condition, larger jets would do nothing
to 'compensate' for it. Exhaust gas is inert. It doesn't change the
mixture, it only takes up space to keep peak combustion temperature
down.

>
>Another old '74 wagon I drove ran like a champ with the vacuum tube
>removed. No one I knew ever left theirs hooked up. I know the vacuum
>controls on EGRs now are more refined, but the idea of shoving exhaust
>gasses back into an engine to lower combustinon temps still seems silly
>to me. Even water injection made more sense to me.

No doubt EGR in the 70s & 80s wasn't good, but today, you probably
wouldn't notice a difference by disconnecting it. Other than the MIL
being on, that is.

I always wondered about water injection too. Perhaps it's more costly,
or has other drawbacks. Maybe the water vapor that gets past the rings
condensing in the combustion chamber could be a problem.

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

"bllsht" <nospam@dot.net> wrote in message
news:bbsmn2hjabesvdtcdh00hvgi3ip3tulc6j@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:51:07 -0800, Outatime <user@example.net> wrote:
>
> >bllsht wrote:
> >
> >> Lack of EGR will not cause a rich condition, injected or not.
> >
> >It did on my old 78 Dodge with the 'lean burn' system; it was set up so
> >that the valve was wide open at any throttle setting except idle, and
> >the mains were oversized a bit to compensate. After rejetting, I ended
> >up with better throttle response and another 1.5 mpg, which was a big
> >deal because it only got 10 mpg to begin with.
>
> Since EGR doesn't cause a lean condition, larger jets would do nothing
> to 'compensate' for it. Exhaust gas is inert. It doesn't change the
> mixture, it only takes up space to keep peak combustion temperature
> down.
>
> >
> >Another old '74 wagon I drove ran like a champ with the vacuum tube
> >removed. No one I knew ever left theirs hooked up. I know the vacuum
> >controls on EGRs now are more refined, but the idea of shoving exhaust
> >gasses back into an engine to lower combustinon temps still seems silly
> >to me. Even water injection made more sense to me.
>
> No doubt EGR in the 70s & 80s wasn't good, but today, you probably
> wouldn't notice a difference by disconnecting it. Other than the MIL
> being on, that is.
>
> I always wondered about water injection too. Perhaps it's more costly,
> or has other drawbacks. Maybe the water vapor that gets past the rings
> condensing in the combustion chamber could be a problem.
>
Reliable storage and delivery problems. How are you going to supply water,
when the ambient temperature is -20º and the car is left out all night?

Earle

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

"bllsht" <nospam@dot.net> wrote in message
news:bbsmn2hjabesvdtcdh00hvgi3ip3tulc6j@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:51:07 -0800, Outatime <user@example.net> wrote:
>
> >bllsht wrote:
> >
> >> Lack of EGR will not cause a rich condition, injected or not.
> >
> >It did on my old 78 Dodge with the 'lean burn' system; it was set up so
> >that the valve was wide open at any throttle setting except idle, and
> >the mains were oversized a bit to compensate. After rejetting, I ended
> >up with better throttle response and another 1.5 mpg, which was a big
> >deal because it only got 10 mpg to begin with.
>
> Since EGR doesn't cause a lean condition, larger jets would do nothing
> to 'compensate' for it. Exhaust gas is inert. It doesn't change the
> mixture, it only takes up space to keep peak combustion temperature
> down.
>
> >
> >Another old '74 wagon I drove ran like a champ with the vacuum tube
> >removed. No one I knew ever left theirs hooked up. I know the vacuum
> >controls on EGRs now are more refined, but the idea of shoving exhaust
> >gasses back into an engine to lower combustinon temps still seems silly
> >to me. Even water injection made more sense to me.
>
> No doubt EGR in the 70s & 80s wasn't good, but today, you probably
> wouldn't notice a difference by disconnecting it. Other than the MIL
> being on, that is.
>
> I always wondered about water injection too. Perhaps it's more costly,
> or has other drawbacks. Maybe the water vapor that gets past the rings
> condensing in the combustion chamber could be a problem.
>
Reliable storage and delivery problems. How are you going to supply water,
when the ambient temperature is -20º and the car is left out all night?

Earle

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

"bllsht" <nospam@dot.net> wrote in message
news:bbsmn2hjabesvdtcdh00hvgi3ip3tulc6j@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:51:07 -0800, Outatime <user@example.net> wrote:
>
> >bllsht wrote:
> >
> >> Lack of EGR will not cause a rich condition, injected or not.
> >
> >It did on my old 78 Dodge with the 'lean burn' system; it was set up so
> >that the valve was wide open at any throttle setting except idle, and
> >the mains were oversized a bit to compensate. After rejetting, I ended
> >up with better throttle response and another 1.5 mpg, which was a big
> >deal because it only got 10 mpg to begin with.
>
> Since EGR doesn't cause a lean condition, larger jets would do nothing
> to 'compensate' for it. Exhaust gas is inert. It doesn't change the
> mixture, it only takes up space to keep peak combustion temperature
> down.
>
> >
> >Another old '74 wagon I drove ran like a champ with the vacuum tube
> >removed. No one I knew ever left theirs hooked up. I know the vacuum
> >controls on EGRs now are more refined, but the idea of shoving exhaust
> >gasses back into an engine to lower combustinon temps still seems silly
> >to me. Even water injection made more sense to me.
>
> No doubt EGR in the 70s & 80s wasn't good, but today, you probably
> wouldn't notice a difference by disconnecting it. Other than the MIL
> being on, that is.
>
> I always wondered about water injection too. Perhaps it's more costly,
> or has other drawbacks. Maybe the water vapor that gets past the rings
> condensing in the combustion chamber could be a problem.
>
Reliable storage and delivery problems. How are you going to supply water,
when the ambient temperature is -20º and the car is left out all night?

Earle

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:55:14 -0800, Outatime <user@example.net> wrote:

>Lon wrote:
>
>> Think most systems do check for the amount of exhaust being
>> recirculated, so would expect a code on most mods. With modern FI it
>> tends not to be as bad as the older stuff when EGR first started.
>
>Figures. I'll probably get a code, but I'd like to see how much better
>it runs just for laughs. There's always a way to get around something
>if you really want to. Truckers figured out a long time ago that
>getting around computer governors was an easy task, IF you didn't mind
>the speedometer being disabled. Nowadays we get a code set on that too
>if we mess with input sensors.

First thing you'll have to overcome is how to block off EGR on a
vehicle that's not equipped with it.

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:55:14 -0800, Outatime <user@example.net> wrote:

>Lon wrote:
>
>> Think most systems do check for the amount of exhaust being
>> recirculated, so would expect a code on most mods. With modern FI it
>> tends not to be as bad as the older stuff when EGR first started.
>
>Figures. I'll probably get a code, but I'd like to see how much better
>it runs just for laughs. There's always a way to get around something
>if you really want to. Truckers figured out a long time ago that
>getting around computer governors was an easy task, IF you didn't mind
>the speedometer being disabled. Nowadays we get a code set on that too
>if we mess with input sensors.

First thing you'll have to overcome is how to block off EGR on a
vehicle that's not equipped with it.

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:55:14 -0800, Outatime <user@example.net> wrote:

>Lon wrote:
>
>> Think most systems do check for the amount of exhaust being
>> recirculated, so would expect a code on most mods. With modern FI it
>> tends not to be as bad as the older stuff when EGR first started.
>
>Figures. I'll probably get a code, but I'd like to see how much better
>it runs just for laughs. There's always a way to get around something
>if you really want to. Truckers figured out a long time ago that
>getting around computer governors was an easy task, IF you didn't mind
>the speedometer being disabled. Nowadays we get a code set on that too
>if we mess with input sensors.

First thing you'll have to overcome is how to block off EGR on a
vehicle that's not equipped with it.

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

On Sat, 9 Dec 2006 20:01:17 -0700, "Earle Horton"
<el_anglo_burgues@usa.com> wrote:

>"bllsht" <nospam@dot.net> wrote in message
>news:bbsmn2hjabesvdtcdh00hvgi3ip3tulc6j@4ax.com.. .
>> On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:51:07 -0800, Outatime <user@example.net> wrote:
>>
>> >bllsht wrote:
>> >
>> >> Lack of EGR will not cause a rich condition, injected or not.
>> >
>> >It did on my old 78 Dodge with the 'lean burn' system; it was set up so
>> >that the valve was wide open at any throttle setting except idle, and
>> >the mains were oversized a bit to compensate. After rejetting, I ended
>> >up with better throttle response and another 1.5 mpg, which was a big
>> >deal because it only got 10 mpg to begin with.
>>
>> Since EGR doesn't cause a lean condition, larger jets would do nothing
>> to 'compensate' for it. Exhaust gas is inert. It doesn't change the
>> mixture, it only takes up space to keep peak combustion temperature
>> down.
>>
>> >
>> >Another old '74 wagon I drove ran like a champ with the vacuum tube
>> >removed. No one I knew ever left theirs hooked up. I know the vacuum
>> >controls on EGRs now are more refined, but the idea of shoving exhaust
>> >gasses back into an engine to lower combustinon temps still seems silly
>> >to me. Even water injection made more sense to me.
>>
>> No doubt EGR in the 70s & 80s wasn't good, but today, you probably
>> wouldn't notice a difference by disconnecting it. Other than the MIL
>> being on, that is.
>>
>> I always wondered about water injection too. Perhaps it's more costly,
>> or has other drawbacks. Maybe the water vapor that gets past the rings
>> condensing in the combustion chamber could be a problem.
>>
>Reliable storage and delivery problems. How are you going to supply water,
>when the ambient temperature is -20º and the car is left out all night?
>
>Earle
>


Good point! :-)

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

On Sat, 9 Dec 2006 20:01:17 -0700, "Earle Horton"
<el_anglo_burgues@usa.com> wrote:

>"bllsht" <nospam@dot.net> wrote in message
>news:bbsmn2hjabesvdtcdh00hvgi3ip3tulc6j@4ax.com.. .
>> On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:51:07 -0800, Outatime <user@example.net> wrote:
>>
>> >bllsht wrote:
>> >
>> >> Lack of EGR will not cause a rich condition, injected or not.
>> >
>> >It did on my old 78 Dodge with the 'lean burn' system; it was set up so
>> >that the valve was wide open at any throttle setting except idle, and
>> >the mains were oversized a bit to compensate. After rejetting, I ended
>> >up with better throttle response and another 1.5 mpg, which was a big
>> >deal because it only got 10 mpg to begin with.
>>
>> Since EGR doesn't cause a lean condition, larger jets would do nothing
>> to 'compensate' for it. Exhaust gas is inert. It doesn't change the
>> mixture, it only takes up space to keep peak combustion temperature
>> down.
>>
>> >
>> >Another old '74 wagon I drove ran like a champ with the vacuum tube
>> >removed. No one I knew ever left theirs hooked up. I know the vacuum
>> >controls on EGRs now are more refined, but the idea of shoving exhaust
>> >gasses back into an engine to lower combustinon temps still seems silly
>> >to me. Even water injection made more sense to me.
>>
>> No doubt EGR in the 70s & 80s wasn't good, but today, you probably
>> wouldn't notice a difference by disconnecting it. Other than the MIL
>> being on, that is.
>>
>> I always wondered about water injection too. Perhaps it's more costly,
>> or has other drawbacks. Maybe the water vapor that gets past the rings
>> condensing in the combustion chamber could be a problem.
>>
>Reliable storage and delivery problems. How are you going to supply water,
>when the ambient temperature is -20º and the car is left out all night?
>
>Earle
>


Good point! :-)

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

On Sat, 9 Dec 2006 20:01:17 -0700, "Earle Horton"
<el_anglo_burgues@usa.com> wrote:

>"bllsht" <nospam@dot.net> wrote in message
>news:bbsmn2hjabesvdtcdh00hvgi3ip3tulc6j@4ax.com.. .
>> On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:51:07 -0800, Outatime <user@example.net> wrote:
>>
>> >bllsht wrote:
>> >
>> >> Lack of EGR will not cause a rich condition, injected or not.
>> >
>> >It did on my old 78 Dodge with the 'lean burn' system; it was set up so
>> >that the valve was wide open at any throttle setting except idle, and
>> >the mains were oversized a bit to compensate. After rejetting, I ended
>> >up with better throttle response and another 1.5 mpg, which was a big
>> >deal because it only got 10 mpg to begin with.
>>
>> Since EGR doesn't cause a lean condition, larger jets would do nothing
>> to 'compensate' for it. Exhaust gas is inert. It doesn't change the
>> mixture, it only takes up space to keep peak combustion temperature
>> down.
>>
>> >
>> >Another old '74 wagon I drove ran like a champ with the vacuum tube
>> >removed. No one I knew ever left theirs hooked up. I know the vacuum
>> >controls on EGRs now are more refined, but the idea of shoving exhaust
>> >gasses back into an engine to lower combustinon temps still seems silly
>> >to me. Even water injection made more sense to me.
>>
>> No doubt EGR in the 70s & 80s wasn't good, but today, you probably
>> wouldn't notice a difference by disconnecting it. Other than the MIL
>> being on, that is.
>>
>> I always wondered about water injection too. Perhaps it's more costly,
>> or has other drawbacks. Maybe the water vapor that gets past the rings
>> condensing in the combustion chamber could be a problem.
>>
>Reliable storage and delivery problems. How are you going to supply water,
>when the ambient temperature is -20º and the car is left out all night?
>
>Earle
>


Good point! :-)

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

bllsht wrote:

> Since EGR doesn't cause a lean condition, larger jets would do nothing
> to 'compensate' for it. Exhaust gas is inert. It doesn't change the
> mixture, it only takes up space to keep peak combustion temperature
> down.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. IMO, EGR porting is
nothing more than a poorly-controlled vacuum leak; increase or decrease
the flow into the intake manifold below the carburetor venturi and the
fuel mixture changes. This can be easily demonstrated by disconnecting
the diaphram vacuum tube, apply enough suction to open the pintle valve
to introduce lots of inert exhaust gas, and observe the engine die
immediately from an excessively lean mixture. Smog techs often used
this method to verify proper EGR valve operation.

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

bllsht wrote:

> Since EGR doesn't cause a lean condition, larger jets would do nothing
> to 'compensate' for it. Exhaust gas is inert. It doesn't change the
> mixture, it only takes up space to keep peak combustion temperature
> down.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. IMO, EGR porting is
nothing more than a poorly-controlled vacuum leak; increase or decrease
the flow into the intake manifold below the carburetor venturi and the
fuel mixture changes. This can be easily demonstrated by disconnecting
the diaphram vacuum tube, apply enough suction to open the pintle valve
to introduce lots of inert exhaust gas, and observe the engine die
immediately from an excessively lean mixture. Smog techs often used
this method to verify proper EGR valve operation.

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

bllsht wrote:

> Since EGR doesn't cause a lean condition, larger jets would do nothing
> to 'compensate' for it. Exhaust gas is inert. It doesn't change the
> mixture, it only takes up space to keep peak combustion temperature
> down.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. IMO, EGR porting is
nothing more than a poorly-controlled vacuum leak; increase or decrease
the flow into the intake manifold below the carburetor venturi and the
fuel mixture changes. This can be easily demonstrated by disconnecting
the diaphram vacuum tube, apply enough suction to open the pintle valve
to introduce lots of inert exhaust gas, and observe the engine die
immediately from an excessively lean mixture. Smog techs often used
this method to verify proper EGR valve operation.

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 22:07:21 -0800, Outatime <user@example.net> wrote:

>bllsht wrote:
>
>> Since EGR doesn't cause a lean condition, larger jets would do nothing
>> to 'compensate' for it. Exhaust gas is inert. It doesn't change the
>> mixture, it only takes up space to keep peak combustion temperature
>> down.
>
>We will have to agree to disagree on this one. IMO, EGR porting is
>nothing more than a poorly-controlled vacuum leak; increase or decrease
>the flow into the intake manifold below the carburetor venturi and the
>fuel mixture changes. This can be easily demonstrated by disconnecting
>the diaphram vacuum tube, apply enough suction to open the pintle valve
>to introduce lots of inert exhaust gas, and observe the engine die
>immediately from an excessively lean mixture. Smog techs often used
>this method to verify proper EGR valve operation.

If what you're selling is correct, then why use exhaust gas? Why not
just create a vacuum leak? Because lean is not the answer to
preventing NOx formation. In fact, leaning out the mixture will
increase combustion temp and NOx production.

The engine dies when EGR is applied at idle because the cylinder is
filled with inert gas that won't burn. Not because it's lean. That's
the way EGR works. No agreeing to disagree. It is what it is.

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 22:07:21 -0800, Outatime <user@example.net> wrote:

>bllsht wrote:
>
>> Since EGR doesn't cause a lean condition, larger jets would do nothing
>> to 'compensate' for it. Exhaust gas is inert. It doesn't change the
>> mixture, it only takes up space to keep peak combustion temperature
>> down.
>
>We will have to agree to disagree on this one. IMO, EGR porting is
>nothing more than a poorly-controlled vacuum leak; increase or decrease
>the flow into the intake manifold below the carburetor venturi and the
>fuel mixture changes. This can be easily demonstrated by disconnecting
>the diaphram vacuum tube, apply enough suction to open the pintle valve
>to introduce lots of inert exhaust gas, and observe the engine die
>immediately from an excessively lean mixture. Smog techs often used
>this method to verify proper EGR valve operation.

If what you're selling is correct, then why use exhaust gas? Why not
just create a vacuum leak? Because lean is not the answer to
preventing NOx formation. In fact, leaning out the mixture will
increase combustion temp and NOx production.

The engine dies when EGR is applied at idle because the cylinder is
filled with inert gas that won't burn. Not because it's lean. That's
the way EGR works. No agreeing to disagree. It is what it is.

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 22:07:21 -0800, Outatime <user@example.net> wrote:

>bllsht wrote:
>
>> Since EGR doesn't cause a lean condition, larger jets would do nothing
>> to 'compensate' for it. Exhaust gas is inert. It doesn't change the
>> mixture, it only takes up space to keep peak combustion temperature
>> down.
>
>We will have to agree to disagree on this one. IMO, EGR porting is
>nothing more than a poorly-controlled vacuum leak; increase or decrease
>the flow into the intake manifold below the carburetor venturi and the
>fuel mixture changes. This can be easily demonstrated by disconnecting
>the diaphram vacuum tube, apply enough suction to open the pintle valve
>to introduce lots of inert exhaust gas, and observe the engine die
>immediately from an excessively lean mixture. Smog techs often used
>this method to verify proper EGR valve operation.

If what you're selling is correct, then why use exhaust gas? Why not
just create a vacuum leak? Because lean is not the answer to
preventing NOx formation. In fact, leaning out the mixture will
increase combustion temp and NOx production.

The engine dies when EGR is applied at idle because the cylinder is
filled with inert gas that won't burn. Not because it's lean. That's
the way EGR works. No agreeing to disagree. It is what it is.

Re: Here's a Goodie! Re: cold start sluggishness - Hughes-DL.jpg (1/1) [85K] - Hughes-DL.jpg (1/1) [85K]
 

On this day of this month, in a year likely to be unrecorded in human
history, L.W.(Bill) ------ III wrote:

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

Craig was right, /most/ people stop playing this game around 8 years old.

Which is still a year or two beyond Slick Billy's intellectual age.

Man, he really is an internet Peeping Tom.......



--
"Jeeps can get up, and jeeps can also go down. Why can't Bill?"

-- Nancy ------ III

Re: Here's a Goodie! Re: cold start sluggishness - Hughes-DL.jpg (1/1) [85K] - Hughes-DL.jpg (1/1) [85K]
 

On this day of this month, in a year likely to be unrecorded in human
history, L.W.(Bill) ------ III wrote:

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

Craig was right, /most/ people stop playing this game around 8 years old.

Which is still a year or two beyond Slick Billy's intellectual age.

Man, he really is an internet Peeping Tom.......



--
"Jeeps can get up, and jeeps can also go down. Why can't Bill?"

-- Nancy ------ III

Re: Here's a Goodie! Re: cold start sluggishness - Hughes-DL.jpg (1/1) [85K] - Hughes-DL.jpg (1/1) [85K]
 

On this day of this month, in a year likely to be unrecorded in human
history, L.W.(Bill) ------ III wrote:

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

> Lets see yours

Craig was right, /most/ people stop playing this game around 8 years old.

Which is still a year or two beyond Slick Billy's intellectual age.

Man, he really is an internet Peeping Tom.......



--
"Jeeps can get up, and jeeps can also go down. Why can't Bill?"

-- Nancy ------ III

Re: Here's a Goodie! Re: cold start sluggishness - Hughes-DL.jpg(1/1) [85K] - Hughes-DL.jpg (1/1) [85K]
 

There you go again, the jealous, really jealous, I can't believe
how jealous this little draft dodging coward schizophrenic psychopath
liar hiding in Vancouver who's only way to get attention is to make a
fool of it's self. With an obsession the other perverts here. With
extreme jealous ranting over my documents/possessions, committing
forgery over many of them proving I'm an American man. You remind me of
a little rat dog, like a Mexican Chiwawa with it's senseless barking, me
too, me too. And the poor thing, you're too girlie to take
responsibility for yourself again, by signing your statement like a man.
You're not worth any more time when a cut and paste this same
paragraph it fits so well!
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Re: Here's a Goodie! Re: cold start sluggishness - Hughes-DL.jpg(1/1) [85K] - Hughes-DL.jpg (1/1) [85K]
 

There you go again, the jealous, really jealous, I can't believe
how jealous this little draft dodging coward schizophrenic psychopath
liar hiding in Vancouver who's only way to get attention is to make a
fool of it's self. With an obsession the other perverts here. With
extreme jealous ranting over my documents/possessions, committing
forgery over many of them proving I'm an American man. You remind me of
a little rat dog, like a Mexican Chiwawa with it's senseless barking, me
too, me too. And the poor thing, you're too girlie to take
responsibility for yourself again, by signing your statement like a man.
You're not worth any more time when a cut and paste this same
paragraph it fits so well!
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Re: Here's a Goodie! Re: cold start sluggishness - Hughes-DL.jpg(1/1) [85K] - Hughes-DL.jpg (1/1) [85K]
 

There you go again, the jealous, really jealous, I can't believe
how jealous this little draft dodging coward schizophrenic psychopath
liar hiding in Vancouver who's only way to get attention is to make a
fool of it's self. With an obsession the other perverts here. With
extreme jealous ranting over my documents/possessions, committing
forgery over many of them proving I'm an American man. You remind me of
a little rat dog, like a Mexican Chiwawa with it's senseless barking, me
too, me too. And the poor thing, you're too girlie to take
responsibility for yourself again, by signing your statement like a man.
You're not worth any more time when a cut and paste this same
paragraph it fits so well!
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Re: cold start sluggishness
 

Yeah - that is what I was thinking on the whistle. I will check all
the temp controlled vacuum lines and switches first. They may be two
separate problems that happen to coincide. I guess the reason I
figured my choke wasn't the culprit is that at idle it runs perfectly
throughout the warmup period and the bogging doesn't start happening
until the whistle begins and then goes away when the whistling becomes
quieter again at operating temperature.


Mike Romain wrote:
> I think I would first be looking at the air filter flaps and their
> controls or vacuum lines for a leak. These are active on a cold
> engine. The EGR even has a thermostat inside the air filter.
>
> Second I would be checking the carb's base screws to be sure the carb is
> bolted down tight.
>
> Third I would be looking really close at the choke vacuum pull off
> valve. It is on the back corner of the carb with a vacuum line running
> to it. I would want to make sure it isn't leaking.
>
> You can carefully spray some carb cleaner or WD40 along the carb base
> and along the intake manifold gasket to check for leaks. If the engine
> rumbles when you spray, you have a leak.
>
> Besides the noise, your carb sounds like the typical automatic choke
> issue. The thing is on a bimetal spring timer that doesn't care how
> warm the engine actually is so when the engine is half way warm, the
> choke is open too much so it bogs like mad. You have to feather the gas
> pedal up and down to keep it running under load and 2 foot drive them.
> You 'can' adjust the choke for how rich it runs until it opens by
> loosening the three screws on the cover and turning it. It has indexing
> lines on it. Unless the carb number is 8349 or 8351, it should be 1
> notch rich. Or you can go manual choke easily.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Deano wrote:
> >
> > I know a few other folks have posted other cold-related issues and
> > received lost of responses, but none seemed to match quite right.
> >
> > 86 cj7 258, carter bbd, nutter bypass
> >
> > I am trying to figure out if there could be a relationship between a
> > very loud whistling (a vacuum leak I haven't found yet) and some
> > serious sluggishness while the engine is cold. It was 15 or 18 degrees
> > this morning (-10C) and it exhibited the typical symptoms. Starts and
> > idles perfectly and in fact runs great for the first 2-3 minutes. Then
> > the whistling starts and with the whistling comes a huge bogging issue
> > under any load at all. I believe the only delayed vacuum line should
> > be the thermal vacuum switch that purges the canister and controls the
> > EGR. I know it is not the EGR as it blocked off. Anyone else hearing
> > something familiar or following the train of thought here? Could a
> > vacuum leak cause a serious bogging issue until warm and then go away?.
> >
> > Would love to hear any thoughts or ideas on this.
> >
> > Thanks