Pumping doesn't get it for me either, because the master cylinder's
inner piston return spring isn't strong enough to return the piston cup
to the fill opening of it's reservoir, so I make a way to pressurize the
reservoir and also bleed at the master cylinder for that stupid design
flaw that has the line loop higher than the cylinder.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Perry Gagnon wrote:
>
> Background:
> 87YJ/4.2L/5 speed Peuko trans.
> Recently I had a squeak coming from under the dash when I depressed the
> clutch and it eventually got louder then went away. At this point my
> clutch began acting up at stoplights or anytime I held the clutch pedal
> in for any amount of time. It would not be totally disengaged and I
> found myself crawling up on the guy in front when my pedal was to the floor.
>
> I tried bleeding the clutch system and it got better, but not for long.
> Eventually I couldn't drive it because I was not able to get it in and
> out of gear. I assumed the master cylinder was gone (where the noise
> started) so I order up a new one ($102.99) and replaced it. I bled the
> system and it immediately repeated the trait of not fully disengaging
> and eventually getting worse.
> Since I was busy with moving and the Jeep is mainly one of my
> recreational vehicles I didn't have much time to deal with it.
> During my move I figured I had about 120 miles of all highway
> to move the Jeep to the new house and to my new barn to get it fixed
> again. 20 miles in the clutch got so bad I effectively had no clutch at
> a toll booth. I tried bleeding it right there and I kept getting air no
> matter how many times I released the bleeder and my wife pumped like
> crazy in between.
>
> We went through 12 oz of new fluid with no added resistance to the pedal
> and I gave up. I put it in first and started it and drove the last 100
> miles of highway with no clutch till I reached my exit 5 miles from home
> and stopped on the highway and called AAA. ( Saved me $3 per mile x 95
> miles and keep it on a highway and they come faster ;-)
>
> So I assume my client is now gone and I order up one of those from the
> dealer as well as a whole new clutch line for good measure.
>
> I dropped the tranny and replaced it this past weekend and now it's
> all back together and I'm trying to bleed the whole new clutch system.
>
> My Dilemma:
>
> I've passed a total of 24oz of new fluid through the bleeding process
> and I'm still getting air on every cycle.
> The pedal is still as limp as ever and I'm wondering how much fluid is
> this going to take? I tested the new master cylinder before buying the
> client by plugging the outlet and finding a rockhard, unmoveable clutch
> pedal. So I figure it's pumping fluid and of course, had no where to
> pump it.
>
> I'm leaking zero fluid which was the case before this all started.
> I expected some large amount of air when the client pops it's
> restraining straps the first time out and I heard it pop on first
> depression.
> This is not a huge system? What can be wrong. Any ideas? suggestions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Perry
>
> 87YJ
>
> PS. remove the nospam from my email to direct reply. I have to stop
> these viruses coming in at a rate of 120 a day!

 

Pumping just froths up all the trapped air. You need to either pressure or
vacuum bleed the system to draw it all out.
"L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
news:3F733B02.4FC06AAB@***.net...
> Pumping doesn't get it for me either, because the master cylinder's
> inner piston return spring isn't strong enough to return the piston cup
> to the fill opening of it's reservoir, so I make a way to pressurize the
> reservoir and also bleed at the master cylinder for that stupid design
> flaw that has the line loop higher than the cylinder.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Perry Gagnon wrote:
> >
> > Background:
> > 87YJ/4.2L/5 speed Peuko trans.
> > Recently I had a squeak coming from under the dash when I depressed the
> > clutch and it eventually got louder then went away. At this point my
> > clutch began acting up at stoplights or anytime I held the clutch pedal
> > in for any amount of time. It would not be totally disengaged and I
> > found myself crawling up on the guy in front when my pedal was to the
floor.
> >
> > I tried bleeding the clutch system and it got better, but not for long.
> > Eventually I couldn't drive it because I was not able to get it in and
> > out of gear. I assumed the master cylinder was gone (where the noise
> > started) so I order up a new one ($102.99) and replaced it. I bled the
> > system and it immediately repeated the trait of not fully disengaging
> > and eventually getting worse.
> > Since I was busy with moving and the Jeep is mainly one of my
> > recreational vehicles I didn't have much time to deal with it.
> > During my move I figured I had about 120 miles of all highway
> > to move the Jeep to the new house and to my new barn to get it fixed
> > again. 20 miles in the clutch got so bad I effectively had no clutch at
> > a toll booth. I tried bleeding it right there and I kept getting air no
> > matter how many times I released the bleeder and my wife pumped like
> > crazy in between.
> >
> > We went through 12 oz of new fluid with no added resistance to the pedal
> > and I gave up. I put it in first and started it and drove the last 100
> > miles of highway with no clutch till I reached my exit 5 miles from home
> > and stopped on the highway and called AAA. ( Saved me $3 per mile x 95
> > miles and keep it on a highway and they come faster ;-)
> >
> > So I assume my client is now gone and I order up one of those from the
> > dealer as well as a whole new clutch line for good measure.
> >
> > I dropped the tranny and replaced it this past weekend and now it's
> > all back together and I'm trying to bleed the whole new clutch system.
> >
> > My Dilemma:
> >
> > I've passed a total of 24oz of new fluid through the bleeding process
> > and I'm still getting air on every cycle.
> > The pedal is still as limp as ever and I'm wondering how much fluid is
> > this going to take? I tested the new master cylinder before buying the
> > client by plugging the outlet and finding a rockhard, unmoveable clutch
> > pedal. So I figure it's pumping fluid and of course, had no where to
> > pump it.
> >
> > I'm leaking zero fluid which was the case before this all started.
> > I expected some large amount of air when the client pops it's
> > restraining straps the first time out and I heard it pop on first
> > depression.
> > This is not a huge system? What can be wrong. Any ideas? suggestions?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Perry
> >
> > 87YJ
> >
> > PS. remove the nospam from my email to direct reply. I have to stop
> > these viruses coming in at a rate of 120 a day!

 

Pumping just froths up all the trapped air. You need to either pressure or
vacuum bleed the system to draw it all out.
"L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
news:3F733B02.4FC06AAB@***.net...
> Pumping doesn't get it for me either, because the master cylinder's
> inner piston return spring isn't strong enough to return the piston cup
> to the fill opening of it's reservoir, so I make a way to pressurize the
> reservoir and also bleed at the master cylinder for that stupid design
> flaw that has the line loop higher than the cylinder.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Perry Gagnon wrote:
> >
> > Background:
> > 87YJ/4.2L/5 speed Peuko trans.
> > Recently I had a squeak coming from under the dash when I depressed the
> > clutch and it eventually got louder then went away. At this point my
> > clutch began acting up at stoplights or anytime I held the clutch pedal
> > in for any amount of time. It would not be totally disengaged and I
> > found myself crawling up on the guy in front when my pedal was to the
floor.
> >
> > I tried bleeding the clutch system and it got better, but not for long.
> > Eventually I couldn't drive it because I was not able to get it in and
> > out of gear. I assumed the master cylinder was gone (where the noise
> > started) so I order up a new one ($102.99) and replaced it. I bled the
> > system and it immediately repeated the trait of not fully disengaging
> > and eventually getting worse.
> > Since I was busy with moving and the Jeep is mainly one of my
> > recreational vehicles I didn't have much time to deal with it.
> > During my move I figured I had about 120 miles of all highway
> > to move the Jeep to the new house and to my new barn to get it fixed
> > again. 20 miles in the clutch got so bad I effectively had no clutch at
> > a toll booth. I tried bleeding it right there and I kept getting air no
> > matter how many times I released the bleeder and my wife pumped like
> > crazy in between.
> >
> > We went through 12 oz of new fluid with no added resistance to the pedal
> > and I gave up. I put it in first and started it and drove the last 100
> > miles of highway with no clutch till I reached my exit 5 miles from home
> > and stopped on the highway and called AAA. ( Saved me $3 per mile x 95
> > miles and keep it on a highway and they come faster ;-)
> >
> > So I assume my client is now gone and I order up one of those from the
> > dealer as well as a whole new clutch line for good measure.
> >
> > I dropped the tranny and replaced it this past weekend and now it's
> > all back together and I'm trying to bleed the whole new clutch system.
> >
> > My Dilemma:
> >
> > I've passed a total of 24oz of new fluid through the bleeding process
> > and I'm still getting air on every cycle.
> > The pedal is still as limp as ever and I'm wondering how much fluid is
> > this going to take? I tested the new master cylinder before buying the
> > client by plugging the outlet and finding a rockhard, unmoveable clutch
> > pedal. So I figure it's pumping fluid and of course, had no where to
> > pump it.
> >
> > I'm leaking zero fluid which was the case before this all started.
> > I expected some large amount of air when the client pops it's
> > restraining straps the first time out and I heard it pop on first
> > depression.
> > This is not a huge system? What can be wrong. Any ideas? suggestions?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Perry
> >
> > 87YJ
> >
> > PS. remove the nospam from my email to direct reply. I have to stop
> > these viruses coming in at a rate of 120 a day!

 

Final follow-up for this NG, Though most of you monitor both it seems.

I started this thread after I ran into a confusing problem for a
basically simple clutch system. I spent way too much time and money
trying to get a firm clutch pedal once again.

I chose not to buy a rebuild for the clutch master cylinder even though
it was less than half the price. I figured if I bought another one it
would be locally and I would be able to exchange it easier since I
wasn't 125 miles from the last place I bought the first replacement.
(also, by this time, I was pretty much doubting my ability to do
anything right by this clutch so I decided to KISS it)

My First MC I bought was made in China so I guess I got what I paid for.
My last one bought was cheaper ($84) a Wagner and it looked cheaper than
the china one but at least it came with an instruction pamphlet. This
said clearly, "DO NOT Bench Bleed" across the sheet. It went on to say
that bench bleeding may over stroke the piston and damage the valves for
this type of master cylinder. So I just installed it and low in behold
it started to build pressure immediately during normal bleeding. Then I
did a silly thing and pulled up with my hand on the clutch pedal. Ping!
The shaft pulled right out of the MC! Upon closer inspection a very
cheesy bent wire internal clip was used instead of a proper internal
hardened retaining ring. It popped out without any effort. So out comes
the MC again and I take a good retaining ring from the collection of bad
MC's I now have and all is finally well. It was in, bled, and I was
wheeling again in less than 10 minutes! Woo Hoo! I was forgetting what
it was like to crawl up and play in that bad mama!

I still wanted to know what happened to the new MC made in china that
failed almost immediately. So I took it apart after a long ride today
and unlike my original and my new wagner MC it had only one seal in it.
Not one missing out of two but only one seal, period. Made in China
holds true to quality again.

I appreciate all the help from the fine folks on this NG.
Hopefully this follow-up will help folks to looking closer at their
replacement parts and who makes them. Though price did not mean quality
here. (unless I went to mopar of course) I certainly will weigh that
next time.

Cheers!

Perry
87YJ 36x12.5 M/T Baja's


Jeff Strickland wrote:
> "Perry Gagnon" <perry@nospam.perryshome.com> wrote in message
> news:3F72267C.60303@nospam.perryshome.com...
>
>>Jeff,
>>
>>I'm suspecting the new one is bad now. I did draw all the air out of the
>>new clutch master cylinder with a hand vacuum pump till I had no air in
>>the clear tube *Before* attaching the main line.
>
>
> I don't think you can do it that way. What you have to overcome is the fact
> that air bubbles get inside the respective chambers, and the pedal does not
> move far enought to force them out. When you work the piston while the MC is
> on the bench, you can push it further than the pedal will move it, and this
> will push the trapped air out.
>
>
>
>
>
>>I just tried hooking up to the outlet and cycling it back through the
>>reservoir as I usually would do on a Brake MC. I figured the single
>>cylinder clutch MC wouldn't need the closed loop of a bench bleed if I
>>was was pulling enough fluid through it with the vacuum pump and getting
>>no air.
>
>
> See above. I think you MUST bleed the air by pushing the piston its full
> travel, and the pedal will not do this.
>
>
>
>>Anyway I moved it slowly in and out until there was no more air. It
>>maintained no air until I then moved it quicker and I immediately got
>>more air introduced. Move it faster and larger air bubbles enter the
>>line and are pushed into the reservoir.
>>I'm thinking I'm back to the parts department for another.
>>Or perhaps I can press the clutch in very slowly from here on out! ;-)
>>
>
> I think you have a serious problem. Get a new MC, and bleed it on the bench
> before you install it. In any case, if air is entering the system somewhere
> after you get the bubbles to stop, you have a leak.
>
>
>
>
>

 

Final follow-up for this NG, Though most of you monitor both it seems.

I started this thread after I ran into a confusing problem for a
basically simple clutch system. I spent way too much time and money
trying to get a firm clutch pedal once again.

I chose not to buy a rebuild for the clutch master cylinder even though
it was less than half the price. I figured if I bought another one it
would be locally and I would be able to exchange it easier since I
wasn't 125 miles from the last place I bought the first replacement.
(also, by this time, I was pretty much doubting my ability to do
anything right by this clutch so I decided to KISS it)

My First MC I bought was made in China so I guess I got what I paid for.
My last one bought was cheaper ($84) a Wagner and it looked cheaper than
the china one but at least it came with an instruction pamphlet. This
said clearly, "DO NOT Bench Bleed" across the sheet. It went on to say
that bench bleeding may over stroke the piston and damage the valves for
this type of master cylinder. So I just installed it and low in behold
it started to build pressure immediately during normal bleeding. Then I
did a silly thing and pulled up with my hand on the clutch pedal. Ping!
The shaft pulled right out of the MC! Upon closer inspection a very
cheesy bent wire internal clip was used instead of a proper internal
hardened retaining ring. It popped out without any effort. So out comes
the MC again and I take a good retaining ring from the collection of bad
MC's I now have and all is finally well. It was in, bled, and I was
wheeling again in less than 10 minutes! Woo Hoo! I was forgetting what
it was like to crawl up and play in that bad mama!

I still wanted to know what happened to the new MC made in china that
failed almost immediately. So I took it apart after a long ride today
and unlike my original and my new wagner MC it had only one seal in it.
Not one missing out of two but only one seal, period. Made in China
holds true to quality again.

I appreciate all the help from the fine folks on this NG.
Hopefully this follow-up will help folks to looking closer at their
replacement parts and who makes them. Though price did not mean quality
here. (unless I went to mopar of course) I certainly will weigh that
next time.

Cheers!

Perry
87YJ 36x12.5 M/T Baja's


Jeff Strickland wrote:
> "Perry Gagnon" <perry@nospam.perryshome.com> wrote in message
> news:3F72267C.60303@nospam.perryshome.com...
>
>>Jeff,
>>
>>I'm suspecting the new one is bad now. I did draw all the air out of the
>>new clutch master cylinder with a hand vacuum pump till I had no air in
>>the clear tube *Before* attaching the main line.
>
>
> I don't think you can do it that way. What you have to overcome is the fact
> that air bubbles get inside the respective chambers, and the pedal does not
> move far enought to force them out. When you work the piston while the MC is
> on the bench, you can push it further than the pedal will move it, and this
> will push the trapped air out.
>
>
>
>
>
>>I just tried hooking up to the outlet and cycling it back through the
>>reservoir as I usually would do on a Brake MC. I figured the single
>>cylinder clutch MC wouldn't need the closed loop of a bench bleed if I
>>was was pulling enough fluid through it with the vacuum pump and getting
>>no air.
>
>
> See above. I think you MUST bleed the air by pushing the piston its full
> travel, and the pedal will not do this.
>
>
>
>>Anyway I moved it slowly in and out until there was no more air. It
>>maintained no air until I then moved it quicker and I immediately got
>>more air introduced. Move it faster and larger air bubbles enter the
>>line and are pushed into the reservoir.
>>I'm thinking I'm back to the parts department for another.
>>Or perhaps I can press the clutch in very slowly from here on out! ;-)
>>
>
> I think you have a serious problem. Get a new MC, and bleed it on the bench
> before you install it. In any case, if air is entering the system somewhere
> after you get the bubbles to stop, you have a leak.
>
>
>
>
>

 

Well, I am glad you read the directions instead of listening to us. ;-)

Perhaps the bench bleeding is needed in the multi-chamber master sylinders,
and the clutch is a single chamber design. I would not have guessed that
bench bleeding could be a problem.




"Perry Gagnon" <perry@nospam.perryshome.com> wrote in message
news:3F778382.6080107@nospam.perryshome.com...
> Final follow-up for this NG, Though most of you monitor both it seems.
>
> I started this thread after I ran into a confusing problem for a
> basically simple clutch system. I spent way too much time and money
> trying to get a firm clutch pedal once again.
>
> I chose not to buy a rebuild for the clutch master cylinder even though
> it was less than half the price. I figured if I bought another one it
> would be locally and I would be able to exchange it easier since I
> wasn't 125 miles from the last place I bought the first replacement.
> (also, by this time, I was pretty much doubting my ability to do
> anything right by this clutch so I decided to KISS it)
>
> My First MC I bought was made in China so I guess I got what I paid for.
> My last one bought was cheaper ($84) a Wagner and it looked cheaper than
> the china one but at least it came with an instruction pamphlet. This
> said clearly, "DO NOT Bench Bleed" across the sheet. It went on to say
> that bench bleeding may over stroke the piston and damage the valves for
> this type of master cylinder. So I just installed it and low in behold
> it started to build pressure immediately during normal bleeding. Then I
> did a silly thing and pulled up with my hand on the clutch pedal. Ping!
> The shaft pulled right out of the MC! Upon closer inspection a very
> cheesy bent wire internal clip was used instead of a proper internal
> hardened retaining ring. It popped out without any effort. So out comes
> the MC again and I take a good retaining ring from the collection of bad
> MC's I now have and all is finally well. It was in, bled, and I was
> wheeling again in less than 10 minutes! Woo Hoo! I was forgetting what
> it was like to crawl up and play in that bad mama!
>
> I still wanted to know what happened to the new MC made in china that
> failed almost immediately. So I took it apart after a long ride today
> and unlike my original and my new wagner MC it had only one seal in it.
> Not one missing out of two but only one seal, period. Made in China
> holds true to quality again.
>
> I appreciate all the help from the fine folks on this NG.
> Hopefully this follow-up will help folks to looking closer at their
> replacement parts and who makes them. Though price did not mean quality
> here. (unless I went to mopar of course) I certainly will weigh that
> next time.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Perry
> 87YJ 36x12.5 M/T Baja's
>
>
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
> > "Perry Gagnon" <perry@nospam.perryshome.com> wrote in message
> > news:3F72267C.60303@nospam.perryshome.com...
> >
> >>Jeff,
> >>
> >>I'm suspecting the new one is bad now. I did draw all the air out of the
> >>new clutch master cylinder with a hand vacuum pump till I had no air in
> >>the clear tube *Before* attaching the main line.
> >
> >
> > I don't think you can do it that way. What you have to overcome is the
fact
> > that air bubbles get inside the respective chambers, and the pedal does
not
> > move far enought to force them out. When you work the piston while the
MC is
> > on the bench, you can push it further than the pedal will move it, and
this
> > will push the trapped air out.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>I just tried hooking up to the outlet and cycling it back through the
> >>reservoir as I usually would do on a Brake MC. I figured the single
> >>cylinder clutch MC wouldn't need the closed loop of a bench bleed if I
> >>was was pulling enough fluid through it with the vacuum pump and getting
> >>no air.
> >
> >
> > See above. I think you MUST bleed the air by pushing the piston its full
> > travel, and the pedal will not do this.
> >
> >
> >
> >>Anyway I moved it slowly in and out until there was no more air. It
> >>maintained no air until I then moved it quicker and I immediately got
> >>more air introduced. Move it faster and larger air bubbles enter the
> >>line and are pushed into the reservoir.
> >>I'm thinking I'm back to the parts department for another.
> >>Or perhaps I can press the clutch in very slowly from here on out! ;-)
> >>
> >
> > I think you have a serious problem. Get a new MC, and bleed it on the
bench
> > before you install it. In any case, if air is entering the system
somewhere
> > after you get the bubbles to stop, you have a leak.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

 

Well, I am glad you read the directions instead of listening to us. ;-)

Perhaps the bench bleeding is needed in the multi-chamber master sylinders,
and the clutch is a single chamber design. I would not have guessed that
bench bleeding could be a problem.




"Perry Gagnon" <perry@nospam.perryshome.com> wrote in message
news:3F778382.6080107@nospam.perryshome.com...
> Final follow-up for this NG, Though most of you monitor both it seems.
>
> I started this thread after I ran into a confusing problem for a
> basically simple clutch system. I spent way too much time and money
> trying to get a firm clutch pedal once again.
>
> I chose not to buy a rebuild for the clutch master cylinder even though
> it was less than half the price. I figured if I bought another one it
> would be locally and I would be able to exchange it easier since I
> wasn't 125 miles from the last place I bought the first replacement.
> (also, by this time, I was pretty much doubting my ability to do
> anything right by this clutch so I decided to KISS it)
>
> My First MC I bought was made in China so I guess I got what I paid for.
> My last one bought was cheaper ($84) a Wagner and it looked cheaper than
> the china one but at least it came with an instruction pamphlet. This
> said clearly, "DO NOT Bench Bleed" across the sheet. It went on to say
> that bench bleeding may over stroke the piston and damage the valves for
> this type of master cylinder. So I just installed it and low in behold
> it started to build pressure immediately during normal bleeding. Then I
> did a silly thing and pulled up with my hand on the clutch pedal. Ping!
> The shaft pulled right out of the MC! Upon closer inspection a very
> cheesy bent wire internal clip was used instead of a proper internal
> hardened retaining ring. It popped out without any effort. So out comes
> the MC again and I take a good retaining ring from the collection of bad
> MC's I now have and all is finally well. It was in, bled, and I was
> wheeling again in less than 10 minutes! Woo Hoo! I was forgetting what
> it was like to crawl up and play in that bad mama!
>
> I still wanted to know what happened to the new MC made in china that
> failed almost immediately. So I took it apart after a long ride today
> and unlike my original and my new wagner MC it had only one seal in it.
> Not one missing out of two but only one seal, period. Made in China
> holds true to quality again.
>
> I appreciate all the help from the fine folks on this NG.
> Hopefully this follow-up will help folks to looking closer at their
> replacement parts and who makes them. Though price did not mean quality
> here. (unless I went to mopar of course) I certainly will weigh that
> next time.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Perry
> 87YJ 36x12.5 M/T Baja's
>
>
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
> > "Perry Gagnon" <perry@nospam.perryshome.com> wrote in message
> > news:3F72267C.60303@nospam.perryshome.com...
> >
> >>Jeff,
> >>
> >>I'm suspecting the new one is bad now. I did draw all the air out of the
> >>new clutch master cylinder with a hand vacuum pump till I had no air in
> >>the clear tube *Before* attaching the main line.
> >
> >
> > I don't think you can do it that way. What you have to overcome is the
fact
> > that air bubbles get inside the respective chambers, and the pedal does
not
> > move far enought to force them out. When you work the piston while the
MC is
> > on the bench, you can push it further than the pedal will move it, and
this
> > will push the trapped air out.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>I just tried hooking up to the outlet and cycling it back through the
> >>reservoir as I usually would do on a Brake MC. I figured the single
> >>cylinder clutch MC wouldn't need the closed loop of a bench bleed if I
> >>was was pulling enough fluid through it with the vacuum pump and getting
> >>no air.
> >
> >
> > See above. I think you MUST bleed the air by pushing the piston its full
> > travel, and the pedal will not do this.
> >
> >
> >
> >>Anyway I moved it slowly in and out until there was no more air. It
> >>maintained no air until I then moved it quicker and I immediately got
> >>more air introduced. Move it faster and larger air bubbles enter the
> >>line and are pushed into the reservoir.
> >>I'm thinking I'm back to the parts department for another.
> >>Or perhaps I can press the clutch in very slowly from here on out! ;-)
> >>
> >
> > I think you have a serious problem. Get a new MC, and bleed it on the
bench
> > before you install it. In any case, if air is entering the system
somewhere
> > after you get the bubbles to stop, you have a leak.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>