Mike Romain

Figure the shackles tilted the front end down or pinion up big time so
the shims would go in the back side of the spring perch to bring the
pinion back down and get the castor angles back to something sane.

For the rear, the article was right. The steep angle of the shaft
doesn't matter, having the u-joints open and close the same does. If
one u-joint opens more on one side than the other, they will be out of
sync and jam and vibrations will set in.

Even just with the 1" longer YJ shackles in mine, I get nasty vibes if
running with no load and my steering won't self center any more. When a
load drops the body down a bit, the angles are ok so the vibes go away.

Mike

Tracy Brooks wrote:
>
>
> Mike,
> At the risk of sounding even more stupid...what would I "shim" in the front?
> The axel?
>
> For the rear, I read an article which stressed the importance of the yokes
> being parallel. When looking at the output of the tcase, and the iput of the
> diff, in order for them to be parrallel, I would need to remove the shims on
> the rear axel. This would then make the driveshaft angle very steep at both
> ends.
>
> -Tracy
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:428B435E.BD223BC7@sympatico.ca...
> > You 'really' need the shims for the front, not the rear....
> >
> > The longer shackles have destroyed the front end alignment and you
> > either need to shim it or cut the spring perches and move them.
> >
> > For the rear, you need to get the faces of the yokes in parallel. so
> > they need to look like |=======| or /=======/. Folks use an angle
> > finder or plumb bob to get it.
> >
> > With 6" shackles, you might have fun trying to shim it right but
> > 'apparently' the lift maker 'thinks' you can do it....
> >
> > I used stock CJ springs and had them rearched for my lift. My stock
> > shackles were shot and all I could find at the time were 1" longer YJ
> > ones. The Jerk at the 'jeep' shop insisted they would work. Ya right,
> > he figured on making big bucks trying to 'fix' it later. This has me at
> > borderline for vibes and front steering geometry.
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's.
> >
> > Tracy Brooks wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Sorry for the long post, but I've hit my mechanical ceiling......
> >>
> >> Before: stock '85 CJ7, AMC-20, Dana 30, power steering, 7" rims, and
> >> 31x10.5
> >> tires. Road handling was great.
> >>
> >> "Upgrade": Installed 4" BDS lift which included: springs, shocks, 6"
> >> shackles, 1" tcase drop kit, drop pitman arm, and 4 degree shims for rear
> >> axel. Installed 33x12.5 tires on 10" wheels and had front end aligned at
> >> an
> >> alignment shop.
> >>
> >> After: Road handling is a white-knuckle experience. It requires complete
> >> concentration to keep the beast between the lines. Going around a curve
> >> on
> >> bumpy pavement is downright scary. Also I get quite a bit of driveline
> >> vibration.
> >>
> >> Attempts to improve/more upgrades:
> >> New steering stabilizer (single shock) - very small improvement of bump
> >> steer.
> >> Installed sway bar disconnects so I could use sway bar on road - made
> >> handling a bit more predictable.
> >> Replaced 4 degree shims with 6 degree shims - no improvement in driveline
> >> vibration.
> >> Replaced rear axel U-Joints - no improvement in vibration, old ones were
> >> in
> >> good shape.
> >>
> >> Other than going back to stock, any ideas how I can make it enjoyable to
> >> drive on the road again? Couple of dumb related questions...If I replace
> >> the
> >> 6" shackles with 3" or 4" stock ones, will it give the springs enough
> >> travel? Would a double-shock steering stabilizer make a difference?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> -Tracy
> >

Tracy Brooks

Hey Bill,
Have you seen one of these track bars used on a CJ?

-Tracy

"L.W. ("ßill") ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
news:428B4CE8.11E7583D@***.net...
> Hi Tracy,
> That long a shackle and you have to add a track bar, like the YJ
> uses: http://www.jksmfg.com/telescoping_track_bar.htm to take up some of
> that slop. Also remount your dampener to go from the driver's side frame
> down to the tie rod:
> http://www.bds-suspension.com/graphi...nsteerstab.jpg that
> way when you're turning and your Jeep shifts over the axle the dampener
> will push the wheels in that direction, compromising that shift energy.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Tracy Brooks wrote:
>>
>>
>> Sorry for the long post, but I've hit my mechanical ceiling......
>>
>> Before: stock '85 CJ7, AMC-20, Dana 30, power steering, 7" rims, and
>> 31x10.5
>> tires. Road handling was great.
>>
>> "Upgrade": Installed 4" BDS lift which included: springs, shocks, 6"
>> shackles, 1" tcase drop kit, drop pitman arm, and 4 degree shims for rear
>> axel. Installed 33x12.5 tires on 10" wheels and had front end aligned at
>> an
>> alignment shop.
>>
>> After: Road handling is a white-knuckle experience. It requires complete
>> concentration to keep the beast between the lines. Going around a curve
>> on
>> bumpy pavement is downright scary. Also I get quite a bit of driveline
>> vibration.
>>
>> Attempts to improve/more upgrades:
>> New steering stabilizer (single shock) - very small improvement of bump
>> steer.
>> Installed sway bar disconnects so I could use sway bar on road - made
>> handling a bit more predictable.
>> Replaced 4 degree shims with 6 degree shims - no improvement in driveline
>> vibration.
>> Replaced rear axel U-Joints - no improvement in vibration, old ones were
>> in
>> good shape.
>>
>> Other than going back to stock, any ideas how I can make it enjoyable to
>> drive on the road again? Couple of dumb related questions...If I replace
>> the
>> 6" shackles with 3" or 4" stock ones, will it give the springs enough
>> travel? Would a double-shock steering stabilizer make a difference?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Tracy
>

Tracy Brooks

Hey Bill,
Have you seen one of these track bars used on a CJ?

-Tracy

"L.W. ("ßill") ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
news:428B4CE8.11E7583D@***.net...
> Hi Tracy,
> That long a shackle and you have to add a track bar, like the YJ
> uses: http://www.jksmfg.com/telescoping_track_bar.htm to take up some of
> that slop. Also remount your dampener to go from the driver's side frame
> down to the tie rod:
> http://www.bds-suspension.com/graphi...nsteerstab.jpg that
> way when you're turning and your Jeep shifts over the axle the dampener
> will push the wheels in that direction, compromising that shift energy.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Tracy Brooks wrote:
>>
>>
>> Sorry for the long post, but I've hit my mechanical ceiling......
>>
>> Before: stock '85 CJ7, AMC-20, Dana 30, power steering, 7" rims, and
>> 31x10.5
>> tires. Road handling was great.
>>
>> "Upgrade": Installed 4" BDS lift which included: springs, shocks, 6"
>> shackles, 1" tcase drop kit, drop pitman arm, and 4 degree shims for rear
>> axel. Installed 33x12.5 tires on 10" wheels and had front end aligned at
>> an
>> alignment shop.
>>
>> After: Road handling is a white-knuckle experience. It requires complete
>> concentration to keep the beast between the lines. Going around a curve
>> on
>> bumpy pavement is downright scary. Also I get quite a bit of driveline
>> vibration.
>>
>> Attempts to improve/more upgrades:
>> New steering stabilizer (single shock) - very small improvement of bump
>> steer.
>> Installed sway bar disconnects so I could use sway bar on road - made
>> handling a bit more predictable.
>> Replaced 4 degree shims with 6 degree shims - no improvement in driveline
>> vibration.
>> Replaced rear axel U-Joints - no improvement in vibration, old ones were
>> in
>> good shape.
>>
>> Other than going back to stock, any ideas how I can make it enjoyable to
>> drive on the road again? Couple of dumb related questions...If I replace
>> the
>> 6" shackles with 3" or 4" stock ones, will it give the springs enough
>> travel? Would a double-shock steering stabilizer make a difference?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Tracy
>

Tracy Brooks

Hey Bill,
Have you seen one of these track bars used on a CJ?

-Tracy

"L.W. ("ßill") ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
news:428B4CE8.11E7583D@***.net...
> Hi Tracy,
> That long a shackle and you have to add a track bar, like the YJ
> uses: http://www.jksmfg.com/telescoping_track_bar.htm to take up some of
> that slop. Also remount your dampener to go from the driver's side frame
> down to the tie rod:
> http://www.bds-suspension.com/graphi...nsteerstab.jpg that
> way when you're turning and your Jeep shifts over the axle the dampener
> will push the wheels in that direction, compromising that shift energy.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Tracy Brooks wrote:
>>
>>
>> Sorry for the long post, but I've hit my mechanical ceiling......
>>
>> Before: stock '85 CJ7, AMC-20, Dana 30, power steering, 7" rims, and
>> 31x10.5
>> tires. Road handling was great.
>>
>> "Upgrade": Installed 4" BDS lift which included: springs, shocks, 6"
>> shackles, 1" tcase drop kit, drop pitman arm, and 4 degree shims for rear
>> axel. Installed 33x12.5 tires on 10" wheels and had front end aligned at
>> an
>> alignment shop.
>>
>> After: Road handling is a white-knuckle experience. It requires complete
>> concentration to keep the beast between the lines. Going around a curve
>> on
>> bumpy pavement is downright scary. Also I get quite a bit of driveline
>> vibration.
>>
>> Attempts to improve/more upgrades:
>> New steering stabilizer (single shock) - very small improvement of bump
>> steer.
>> Installed sway bar disconnects so I could use sway bar on road - made
>> handling a bit more predictable.
>> Replaced 4 degree shims with 6 degree shims - no improvement in driveline
>> vibration.
>> Replaced rear axel U-Joints - no improvement in vibration, old ones were
>> in
>> good shape.
>>
>> Other than going back to stock, any ideas how I can make it enjoyable to
>> drive on the road again? Couple of dumb related questions...If I replace
>> the
>> 6" shackles with 3" or 4" stock ones, will it give the springs enough
>> travel? Would a double-shock steering stabilizer make a difference?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Tracy
>

Tracy Brooks

Hey Bill,
Have you seen one of these track bars used on a CJ?

-Tracy

"L.W. ("ßill") ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
news:428B4CE8.11E7583D@***.net...
> Hi Tracy,
> That long a shackle and you have to add a track bar, like the YJ
> uses: http://www.jksmfg.com/telescoping_track_bar.htm to take up some of
> that slop. Also remount your dampener to go from the driver's side frame
> down to the tie rod:
> http://www.bds-suspension.com/graphi...nsteerstab.jpg that
> way when you're turning and your Jeep shifts over the axle the dampener
> will push the wheels in that direction, compromising that shift energy.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Tracy Brooks wrote:
>>
>>
>> Sorry for the long post, but I've hit my mechanical ceiling......
>>
>> Before: stock '85 CJ7, AMC-20, Dana 30, power steering, 7" rims, and
>> 31x10.5
>> tires. Road handling was great.
>>
>> "Upgrade": Installed 4" BDS lift which included: springs, shocks, 6"
>> shackles, 1" tcase drop kit, drop pitman arm, and 4 degree shims for rear
>> axel. Installed 33x12.5 tires on 10" wheels and had front end aligned at
>> an
>> alignment shop.
>>
>> After: Road handling is a white-knuckle experience. It requires complete
>> concentration to keep the beast between the lines. Going around a curve
>> on
>> bumpy pavement is downright scary. Also I get quite a bit of driveline
>> vibration.
>>
>> Attempts to improve/more upgrades:
>> New steering stabilizer (single shock) - very small improvement of bump
>> steer.
>> Installed sway bar disconnects so I could use sway bar on road - made
>> handling a bit more predictable.
>> Replaced 4 degree shims with 6 degree shims - no improvement in driveline
>> vibration.
>> Replaced rear axel U-Joints - no improvement in vibration, old ones were
>> in
>> good shape.
>>
>> Other than going back to stock, any ideas how I can make it enjoyable to
>> drive on the road again? Couple of dumb related questions...If I replace
>> the
>> 6" shackles with 3" or 4" stock ones, will it give the springs enough
>> travel? Would a double-shock steering stabilizer make a difference?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Tracy
>

Jeff Strickland

"Tracy Brooks" <tracy.brooks@moderntech.com> wrote in message
news:118mfr99o0uqu2d@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Sorry for the long post, but I've hit my mechanical ceiling......
>
> Before: stock '85 CJ7, AMC-20, Dana 30, power steering, 7" rims, and
31x10.5
> tires. Road handling was great.
>
> "Upgrade": Installed 4" BDS lift which included: springs, shocks, 6"
> shackles, 1" tcase drop kit, drop pitman arm, and 4 degree shims for rear
> axel. Installed 33x12.5 tires on 10" wheels and had front end aligned at
an
> alignment shop.
>

6" shackles!!! Take those off and go back to stock, or at most 1" longer
than stock. What you want is heavy duty shackles that are a little bit
longer than stock, not long shackles that are the same strenght as stock.
Shackles are a source of twist and bend in the suspension.




> After: Road handling is a white-knuckle experience. It requires complete
> concentration to keep the beast between the lines. Going around a curve on
> bumpy pavement is downright scary. Also I get quite a bit of driveline
> vibration.
>

I suspect the shackles have changed the Caster angle to near zero, and you
need shims to get the caster back. The trouble is, this will present binding
problems for the front drive shaft, MAYBE.



> Attempts to improve/more upgrades:
> New steering stabilizer (single shock) - very small improvement of bump
> steer.
> Installed sway bar disconnects so I could use sway bar on road - made
> handling a bit more predictable.
> Replaced 4 degree shims with 6 degree shims - no improvement in driveline
> vibration.
> Replaced rear axel U-Joints - no improvement in vibration, old ones were
in
> good shape.
>
> Other than going back to stock, any ideas how I can make it enjoyable to
> drive on the road again? Couple of dumb related questions...If I replace
the
> 6" shackles with 3" or 4" stock ones, will it give the springs enough
> travel? Would a double-shock steering stabilizer make a difference?

I think you need the shortest possible shackles. This might mean they are
longer than stock, but nowhere near 6".

Jeff Strickland

"Tracy Brooks" <tracy.brooks@moderntech.com> wrote in message
news:118mfr99o0uqu2d@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Sorry for the long post, but I've hit my mechanical ceiling......
>
> Before: stock '85 CJ7, AMC-20, Dana 30, power steering, 7" rims, and
31x10.5
> tires. Road handling was great.
>
> "Upgrade": Installed 4" BDS lift which included: springs, shocks, 6"
> shackles, 1" tcase drop kit, drop pitman arm, and 4 degree shims for rear
> axel. Installed 33x12.5 tires on 10" wheels and had front end aligned at
an
> alignment shop.
>

6" shackles!!! Take those off and go back to stock, or at most 1" longer
than stock. What you want is heavy duty shackles that are a little bit
longer than stock, not long shackles that are the same strenght as stock.
Shackles are a source of twist and bend in the suspension.




> After: Road handling is a white-knuckle experience. It requires complete
> concentration to keep the beast between the lines. Going around a curve on
> bumpy pavement is downright scary. Also I get quite a bit of driveline
> vibration.
>

I suspect the shackles have changed the Caster angle to near zero, and you
need shims to get the caster back. The trouble is, this will present binding
problems for the front drive shaft, MAYBE.



> Attempts to improve/more upgrades:
> New steering stabilizer (single shock) - very small improvement of bump
> steer.
> Installed sway bar disconnects so I could use sway bar on road - made
> handling a bit more predictable.
> Replaced 4 degree shims with 6 degree shims - no improvement in driveline
> vibration.
> Replaced rear axel U-Joints - no improvement in vibration, old ones were
in
> good shape.
>
> Other than going back to stock, any ideas how I can make it enjoyable to
> drive on the road again? Couple of dumb related questions...If I replace
the
> 6" shackles with 3" or 4" stock ones, will it give the springs enough
> travel? Would a double-shock steering stabilizer make a difference?

I think you need the shortest possible shackles. This might mean they are
longer than stock, but nowhere near 6".

Jeff Strickland

"Tracy Brooks" <tracy.brooks@moderntech.com> wrote in message
news:118mfr99o0uqu2d@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Sorry for the long post, but I've hit my mechanical ceiling......
>
> Before: stock '85 CJ7, AMC-20, Dana 30, power steering, 7" rims, and
31x10.5
> tires. Road handling was great.
>
> "Upgrade": Installed 4" BDS lift which included: springs, shocks, 6"
> shackles, 1" tcase drop kit, drop pitman arm, and 4 degree shims for rear
> axel. Installed 33x12.5 tires on 10" wheels and had front end aligned at
an
> alignment shop.
>

6" shackles!!! Take those off and go back to stock, or at most 1" longer
than stock. What you want is heavy duty shackles that are a little bit
longer than stock, not long shackles that are the same strenght as stock.
Shackles are a source of twist and bend in the suspension.




> After: Road handling is a white-knuckle experience. It requires complete
> concentration to keep the beast between the lines. Going around a curve on
> bumpy pavement is downright scary. Also I get quite a bit of driveline
> vibration.
>

I suspect the shackles have changed the Caster angle to near zero, and you
need shims to get the caster back. The trouble is, this will present binding
problems for the front drive shaft, MAYBE.



> Attempts to improve/more upgrades:
> New steering stabilizer (single shock) - very small improvement of bump
> steer.
> Installed sway bar disconnects so I could use sway bar on road - made
> handling a bit more predictable.
> Replaced 4 degree shims with 6 degree shims - no improvement in driveline
> vibration.
> Replaced rear axel U-Joints - no improvement in vibration, old ones were
in
> good shape.
>
> Other than going back to stock, any ideas how I can make it enjoyable to
> drive on the road again? Couple of dumb related questions...If I replace
the
> 6" shackles with 3" or 4" stock ones, will it give the springs enough
> travel? Would a double-shock steering stabilizer make a difference?

I think you need the shortest possible shackles. This might mean they are
longer than stock, but nowhere near 6".

Jeff Strickland

"Tracy Brooks" <tracy.brooks@moderntech.com> wrote in message
news:118mfr99o0uqu2d@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Sorry for the long post, but I've hit my mechanical ceiling......
>
> Before: stock '85 CJ7, AMC-20, Dana 30, power steering, 7" rims, and
31x10.5
> tires. Road handling was great.
>
> "Upgrade": Installed 4" BDS lift which included: springs, shocks, 6"
> shackles, 1" tcase drop kit, drop pitman arm, and 4 degree shims for rear
> axel. Installed 33x12.5 tires on 10" wheels and had front end aligned at
an
> alignment shop.
>

6" shackles!!! Take those off and go back to stock, or at most 1" longer
than stock. What you want is heavy duty shackles that are a little bit
longer than stock, not long shackles that are the same strenght as stock.
Shackles are a source of twist and bend in the suspension.




> After: Road handling is a white-knuckle experience. It requires complete
> concentration to keep the beast between the lines. Going around a curve on
> bumpy pavement is downright scary. Also I get quite a bit of driveline
> vibration.
>

I suspect the shackles have changed the Caster angle to near zero, and you
need shims to get the caster back. The trouble is, this will present binding
problems for the front drive shaft, MAYBE.



> Attempts to improve/more upgrades:
> New steering stabilizer (single shock) - very small improvement of bump
> steer.
> Installed sway bar disconnects so I could use sway bar on road - made
> handling a bit more predictable.
> Replaced 4 degree shims with 6 degree shims - no improvement in driveline
> vibration.
> Replaced rear axel U-Joints - no improvement in vibration, old ones were
in
> good shape.
>
> Other than going back to stock, any ideas how I can make it enjoyable to
> drive on the road again? Couple of dumb related questions...If I replace
the
> 6" shackles with 3" or 4" stock ones, will it give the springs enough
> travel? Would a double-shock steering stabilizer make a difference?

I think you need the shortest possible shackles. This might mean they are
longer than stock, but nowhere near 6".

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

Hi Tracy,
Nope, I wouldn't put my Jeep up on wobbly stilts, preferring to
radius my tub to fit 36" tires: http://www.----------.com/pismo.htm
http://www.----------.com/jeep68sand2.jpg To keep the center of gravity
low to be able to run side hill.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:--------------------

Tracy Brooks wrote:
>
>
> Hey Bill,
> Have you seen one of these track bars used on a CJ?
>
> -Tracy