CJ-5 Heater Fan Upgrade Questions
03-24-2007, 02:20 PM
#141
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: CJ-5 Heater Fan Upgrade Questions. Now Dead 350 'from' a backfire...Update
SnoMan wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:26:17 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> The newer rad systems are designed to use an overflow bottle and have
>> the rad full to the top all the time.
>>
>> This means as they warm up, the coolant comes out of the rad into the
>> overflow bottle. The rad cap is a two way cap. As the rad cools down,
>> the coolant sucks back into it.
>
> Yess this is what it was designed to do
>
>> I currently have no overflow bottle on my CJ7 so I can only have the
>> coolant just covering the cores by 1/4" or so or it will puke out on the
>> ground.
>>
>> The older rads with the side tanks and horizontal cores were better for
>> the open systems. You could just have the fluid down a ways on the side
>> tank and still not worry about dry cores.
>
> This makes no sense at all.
The design engineers thought it made sense. If you have 4" of a side
tank open to air, then 20" or more of cores are still fully filled with
fluid.
The side tanks had a 'full hot and full cold' mark on them even.
If you are down 4" on a top tank 'all' the core tops are open to air and
only the ones at the very edge below the top rad hose will run coolant
when the pump flows, the rest are air locked with stagnated coolant.
Emissions mandated the closed systems, not hood designs.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:26:17 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> The newer rad systems are designed to use an overflow bottle and have
>> the rad full to the top all the time.
>>
>> This means as they warm up, the coolant comes out of the rad into the
>> overflow bottle. The rad cap is a two way cap. As the rad cools down,
>> the coolant sucks back into it.
>
> Yess this is what it was designed to do
>
>> I currently have no overflow bottle on my CJ7 so I can only have the
>> coolant just covering the cores by 1/4" or so or it will puke out on the
>> ground.
>>
>> The older rads with the side tanks and horizontal cores were better for
>> the open systems. You could just have the fluid down a ways on the side
>> tank and still not worry about dry cores.
>
> This makes no sense at all.
The design engineers thought it made sense. If you have 4" of a side
tank open to air, then 20" or more of cores are still fully filled with
fluid.
The side tanks had a 'full hot and full cold' mark on them even.
If you are down 4" on a top tank 'all' the core tops are open to air and
only the ones at the very edge below the top rad hose will run coolant
when the pump flows, the rest are air locked with stagnated coolant.
Emissions mandated the closed systems, not hood designs.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
03-24-2007, 02:20 PM
#142
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: CJ-5 Heater Fan Upgrade Questions. Now Dead 350 'from' a backfire...Update
SnoMan wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:26:17 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> The newer rad systems are designed to use an overflow bottle and have
>> the rad full to the top all the time.
>>
>> This means as they warm up, the coolant comes out of the rad into the
>> overflow bottle. The rad cap is a two way cap. As the rad cools down,
>> the coolant sucks back into it.
>
> Yess this is what it was designed to do
>
>> I currently have no overflow bottle on my CJ7 so I can only have the
>> coolant just covering the cores by 1/4" or so or it will puke out on the
>> ground.
>>
>> The older rads with the side tanks and horizontal cores were better for
>> the open systems. You could just have the fluid down a ways on the side
>> tank and still not worry about dry cores.
>
> This makes no sense at all.
The design engineers thought it made sense. If you have 4" of a side
tank open to air, then 20" or more of cores are still fully filled with
fluid.
The side tanks had a 'full hot and full cold' mark on them even.
If you are down 4" on a top tank 'all' the core tops are open to air and
only the ones at the very edge below the top rad hose will run coolant
when the pump flows, the rest are air locked with stagnated coolant.
Emissions mandated the closed systems, not hood designs.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:26:17 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> The newer rad systems are designed to use an overflow bottle and have
>> the rad full to the top all the time.
>>
>> This means as they warm up, the coolant comes out of the rad into the
>> overflow bottle. The rad cap is a two way cap. As the rad cools down,
>> the coolant sucks back into it.
>
> Yess this is what it was designed to do
>
>> I currently have no overflow bottle on my CJ7 so I can only have the
>> coolant just covering the cores by 1/4" or so or it will puke out on the
>> ground.
>>
>> The older rads with the side tanks and horizontal cores were better for
>> the open systems. You could just have the fluid down a ways on the side
>> tank and still not worry about dry cores.
>
> This makes no sense at all.
The design engineers thought it made sense. If you have 4" of a side
tank open to air, then 20" or more of cores are still fully filled with
fluid.
The side tanks had a 'full hot and full cold' mark on them even.
If you are down 4" on a top tank 'all' the core tops are open to air and
only the ones at the very edge below the top rad hose will run coolant
when the pump flows, the rest are air locked with stagnated coolant.
Emissions mandated the closed systems, not hood designs.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
03-24-2007, 05:33 PM
#143
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Re: CJ-5 Heater Fan Upgrade Questions. Now Dead 350 'from' a backfire...Update
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 14:20:34 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
>SnoMan wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:26:17 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The newer rad systems are designed to use an overflow bottle and have
>>> the rad full to the top all the time.
>>>
>>> This means as they warm up, the coolant comes out of the rad into the
>>> overflow bottle. The rad cap is a two way cap. As the rad cools down,
>>> the coolant sucks back into it.
>>
>> Yess this is what it was designed to do
>>
>>> I currently have no overflow bottle on my CJ7 so I can only have the
>>> coolant just covering the cores by 1/4" or so or it will puke out on the
>>> ground.
>>>
>>> The older rads with the side tanks and horizontal cores were better for
>>> the open systems. You could just have the fluid down a ways on the side
>>> tank and still not worry about dry cores.
>>
>> This makes no sense at all.
>
>The design engineers thought it made sense. If you have 4" of a side
>tank open to air, then 20" or more of cores are still fully filled with
>fluid.
No you do because the engineers came up with the coolant recovery
system to better deal with this problem.
>
>The side tanks had a 'full hot and full cold' mark on them even.
>
>If you are down 4" on a top tank 'all' the core tops are open to air and
> only the ones at the very edge below the top rad hose will run coolant
>when the pump flows, the rest are air locked with stagnated coolant.
>
>Emissions mandated the closed systems, not hood designs.
THey did noi mandate horizonal cores, lower hood lines did that
because it allows longer core time for coolant than a shorter path in
a vertical core.
>
>Mike
>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
wrote:
>SnoMan wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:26:17 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The newer rad systems are designed to use an overflow bottle and have
>>> the rad full to the top all the time.
>>>
>>> This means as they warm up, the coolant comes out of the rad into the
>>> overflow bottle. The rad cap is a two way cap. As the rad cools down,
>>> the coolant sucks back into it.
>>
>> Yess this is what it was designed to do
>>
>>> I currently have no overflow bottle on my CJ7 so I can only have the
>>> coolant just covering the cores by 1/4" or so or it will puke out on the
>>> ground.
>>>
>>> The older rads with the side tanks and horizontal cores were better for
>>> the open systems. You could just have the fluid down a ways on the side
>>> tank and still not worry about dry cores.
>>
>> This makes no sense at all.
>
>The design engineers thought it made sense. If you have 4" of a side
>tank open to air, then 20" or more of cores are still fully filled with
>fluid.
No you do because the engineers came up with the coolant recovery
system to better deal with this problem.
>
>The side tanks had a 'full hot and full cold' mark on them even.
>
>If you are down 4" on a top tank 'all' the core tops are open to air and
> only the ones at the very edge below the top rad hose will run coolant
>when the pump flows, the rest are air locked with stagnated coolant.
>
>Emissions mandated the closed systems, not hood designs.
THey did noi mandate horizonal cores, lower hood lines did that
because it allows longer core time for coolant than a shorter path in
a vertical core.
>
>Mike
>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
03-24-2007, 05:33 PM
#144
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Re: CJ-5 Heater Fan Upgrade Questions. Now Dead 350 'from' a backfire...Update
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 14:20:34 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
>SnoMan wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:26:17 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The newer rad systems are designed to use an overflow bottle and have
>>> the rad full to the top all the time.
>>>
>>> This means as they warm up, the coolant comes out of the rad into the
>>> overflow bottle. The rad cap is a two way cap. As the rad cools down,
>>> the coolant sucks back into it.
>>
>> Yess this is what it was designed to do
>>
>>> I currently have no overflow bottle on my CJ7 so I can only have the
>>> coolant just covering the cores by 1/4" or so or it will puke out on the
>>> ground.
>>>
>>> The older rads with the side tanks and horizontal cores were better for
>>> the open systems. You could just have the fluid down a ways on the side
>>> tank and still not worry about dry cores.
>>
>> This makes no sense at all.
>
>The design engineers thought it made sense. If you have 4" of a side
>tank open to air, then 20" or more of cores are still fully filled with
>fluid.
No you do because the engineers came up with the coolant recovery
system to better deal with this problem.
>
>The side tanks had a 'full hot and full cold' mark on them even.
>
>If you are down 4" on a top tank 'all' the core tops are open to air and
> only the ones at the very edge below the top rad hose will run coolant
>when the pump flows, the rest are air locked with stagnated coolant.
>
>Emissions mandated the closed systems, not hood designs.
THey did noi mandate horizonal cores, lower hood lines did that
because it allows longer core time for coolant than a shorter path in
a vertical core.
>
>Mike
>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
wrote:
>SnoMan wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:26:17 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The newer rad systems are designed to use an overflow bottle and have
>>> the rad full to the top all the time.
>>>
>>> This means as they warm up, the coolant comes out of the rad into the
>>> overflow bottle. The rad cap is a two way cap. As the rad cools down,
>>> the coolant sucks back into it.
>>
>> Yess this is what it was designed to do
>>
>>> I currently have no overflow bottle on my CJ7 so I can only have the
>>> coolant just covering the cores by 1/4" or so or it will puke out on the
>>> ground.
>>>
>>> The older rads with the side tanks and horizontal cores were better for
>>> the open systems. You could just have the fluid down a ways on the side
>>> tank and still not worry about dry cores.
>>
>> This makes no sense at all.
>
>The design engineers thought it made sense. If you have 4" of a side
>tank open to air, then 20" or more of cores are still fully filled with
>fluid.
No you do because the engineers came up with the coolant recovery
system to better deal with this problem.
>
>The side tanks had a 'full hot and full cold' mark on them even.
>
>If you are down 4" on a top tank 'all' the core tops are open to air and
> only the ones at the very edge below the top rad hose will run coolant
>when the pump flows, the rest are air locked with stagnated coolant.
>
>Emissions mandated the closed systems, not hood designs.
THey did noi mandate horizonal cores, lower hood lines did that
because it allows longer core time for coolant than a shorter path in
a vertical core.
>
>Mike
>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
03-24-2007, 05:33 PM
#145
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Re: CJ-5 Heater Fan Upgrade Questions. Now Dead 350 'from' a backfire...Update
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 14:20:34 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
>SnoMan wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:26:17 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The newer rad systems are designed to use an overflow bottle and have
>>> the rad full to the top all the time.
>>>
>>> This means as they warm up, the coolant comes out of the rad into the
>>> overflow bottle. The rad cap is a two way cap. As the rad cools down,
>>> the coolant sucks back into it.
>>
>> Yess this is what it was designed to do
>>
>>> I currently have no overflow bottle on my CJ7 so I can only have the
>>> coolant just covering the cores by 1/4" or so or it will puke out on the
>>> ground.
>>>
>>> The older rads with the side tanks and horizontal cores were better for
>>> the open systems. You could just have the fluid down a ways on the side
>>> tank and still not worry about dry cores.
>>
>> This makes no sense at all.
>
>The design engineers thought it made sense. If you have 4" of a side
>tank open to air, then 20" or more of cores are still fully filled with
>fluid.
No you do because the engineers came up with the coolant recovery
system to better deal with this problem.
>
>The side tanks had a 'full hot and full cold' mark on them even.
>
>If you are down 4" on a top tank 'all' the core tops are open to air and
> only the ones at the very edge below the top rad hose will run coolant
>when the pump flows, the rest are air locked with stagnated coolant.
>
>Emissions mandated the closed systems, not hood designs.
THey did noi mandate horizonal cores, lower hood lines did that
because it allows longer core time for coolant than a shorter path in
a vertical core.
>
>Mike
>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
wrote:
>SnoMan wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:26:17 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The newer rad systems are designed to use an overflow bottle and have
>>> the rad full to the top all the time.
>>>
>>> This means as they warm up, the coolant comes out of the rad into the
>>> overflow bottle. The rad cap is a two way cap. As the rad cools down,
>>> the coolant sucks back into it.
>>
>> Yess this is what it was designed to do
>>
>>> I currently have no overflow bottle on my CJ7 so I can only have the
>>> coolant just covering the cores by 1/4" or so or it will puke out on the
>>> ground.
>>>
>>> The older rads with the side tanks and horizontal cores were better for
>>> the open systems. You could just have the fluid down a ways on the side
>>> tank and still not worry about dry cores.
>>
>> This makes no sense at all.
>
>The design engineers thought it made sense. If you have 4" of a side
>tank open to air, then 20" or more of cores are still fully filled with
>fluid.
No you do because the engineers came up with the coolant recovery
system to better deal with this problem.
>
>The side tanks had a 'full hot and full cold' mark on them even.
>
>If you are down 4" on a top tank 'all' the core tops are open to air and
> only the ones at the very edge below the top rad hose will run coolant
>when the pump flows, the rest are air locked with stagnated coolant.
>
>Emissions mandated the closed systems, not hood designs.
THey did noi mandate horizonal cores, lower hood lines did that
because it allows longer core time for coolant than a shorter path in
a vertical core.
>
>Mike
>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
03-24-2007, 08:04 PM
#146
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: CJ-5 Heater Fan Upgrade Questions. Now Dead 350 'from' a backfire...Update
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 21:33:39 GMT, SnoMan <admin@snoman.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 14:20:34 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>SnoMan wrote:
>>> On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:26:17 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The newer rad systems are designed to use an overflow bottle and have
>>>> the rad full to the top all the time.
>>>>
>>>> This means as they warm up, the coolant comes out of the rad into the
>>>> overflow bottle. The rad cap is a two way cap. As the rad cools down,
>>>> the coolant sucks back into it.
>>>
>>> Yess this is what it was designed to do
>>>
>>>> I currently have no overflow bottle on my CJ7 so I can only have the
>>>> coolant just covering the cores by 1/4" or so or it will puke out on the
>>>> ground.
>>>>
>>>> The older rads with the side tanks and horizontal cores were better for
>>>> the open systems. You could just have the fluid down a ways on the side
>>>> tank and still not worry about dry cores.
>>>
>>> This makes no sense at all.
>>
>>The design engineers thought it made sense. If you have 4" of a side
>>tank open to air, then 20" or more of cores are still fully filled with
>>fluid.
>
>No you do because the engineers came up with the coolant recovery
>system to better deal with this problem.
>
>>
>>The side tanks had a 'full hot and full cold' mark on them even.
>>
>>If you are down 4" on a top tank 'all' the core tops are open to air and
>> only the ones at the very edge below the top rad hose will run coolant
>>when the pump flows, the rest are air locked with stagnated coolant.
>>
>>Emissions mandated the closed systems, not hood designs.
>
>THey did noi mandate horizonal cores, lower hood lines did that
>because it allows longer core time for coolant than a shorter path in
>a vertical core.
>
>>
>>Mike
>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>-----------------
>TheSnoMan.com
I've got to join in with SnoMan on this one... and as a cooling system
design engineer I can vouch for his statements.
With a cross-flow radiator you get more core face area under a low
hood line. You also have fewer tubes (within some limits) which means
lower cost to produce.
Down flow radiators do operate at near full capacity even if the top
few inches of the tubes 'run dry' - they don't really run dry because
the coolant in the top tank still passes through these tubes in normal
operation and dissipate heat the passing airstream.
On a cross flow otoh, when the tubes are dry they really are dry since
the coolant in the side mounted tank falls to the bottom of the tank
before it enters a tube.
Car makers run a test call 'pull down' to ascertain how much coolant
can be lost and still maintain effective cooling. Down flow radiators
have a greater margin than cross flow.
And a coolant recovery system with a good cap is the best way to
ensure effective cooling. Replacing the cap every year when you
change your coolant is a good idea too.
reboot
---
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Virus Database (VPS): 000727-1, 03/23/2007
Tested on: 3/24/2007 8:04:01 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com
>On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 14:20:34 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>SnoMan wrote:
>>> On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:26:17 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The newer rad systems are designed to use an overflow bottle and have
>>>> the rad full to the top all the time.
>>>>
>>>> This means as they warm up, the coolant comes out of the rad into the
>>>> overflow bottle. The rad cap is a two way cap. As the rad cools down,
>>>> the coolant sucks back into it.
>>>
>>> Yess this is what it was designed to do
>>>
>>>> I currently have no overflow bottle on my CJ7 so I can only have the
>>>> coolant just covering the cores by 1/4" or so or it will puke out on the
>>>> ground.
>>>>
>>>> The older rads with the side tanks and horizontal cores were better for
>>>> the open systems. You could just have the fluid down a ways on the side
>>>> tank and still not worry about dry cores.
>>>
>>> This makes no sense at all.
>>
>>The design engineers thought it made sense. If you have 4" of a side
>>tank open to air, then 20" or more of cores are still fully filled with
>>fluid.
>
>No you do because the engineers came up with the coolant recovery
>system to better deal with this problem.
>
>>
>>The side tanks had a 'full hot and full cold' mark on them even.
>>
>>If you are down 4" on a top tank 'all' the core tops are open to air and
>> only the ones at the very edge below the top rad hose will run coolant
>>when the pump flows, the rest are air locked with stagnated coolant.
>>
>>Emissions mandated the closed systems, not hood designs.
>
>THey did noi mandate horizonal cores, lower hood lines did that
>because it allows longer core time for coolant than a shorter path in
>a vertical core.
>
>>
>>Mike
>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>-----------------
>TheSnoMan.com
I've got to join in with SnoMan on this one... and as a cooling system
design engineer I can vouch for his statements.
With a cross-flow radiator you get more core face area under a low
hood line. You also have fewer tubes (within some limits) which means
lower cost to produce.
Down flow radiators do operate at near full capacity even if the top
few inches of the tubes 'run dry' - they don't really run dry because
the coolant in the top tank still passes through these tubes in normal
operation and dissipate heat the passing airstream.
On a cross flow otoh, when the tubes are dry they really are dry since
the coolant in the side mounted tank falls to the bottom of the tank
before it enters a tube.
Car makers run a test call 'pull down' to ascertain how much coolant
can be lost and still maintain effective cooling. Down flow radiators
have a greater margin than cross flow.
And a coolant recovery system with a good cap is the best way to
ensure effective cooling. Replacing the cap every year when you
change your coolant is a good idea too.
reboot
---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 000727-1, 03/23/2007
Tested on: 3/24/2007 8:04:01 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com
03-24-2007, 08:04 PM
#147
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: CJ-5 Heater Fan Upgrade Questions. Now Dead 350 'from' a backfire...Update
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 21:33:39 GMT, SnoMan <admin@snoman.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 14:20:34 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>SnoMan wrote:
>>> On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:26:17 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The newer rad systems are designed to use an overflow bottle and have
>>>> the rad full to the top all the time.
>>>>
>>>> This means as they warm up, the coolant comes out of the rad into the
>>>> overflow bottle. The rad cap is a two way cap. As the rad cools down,
>>>> the coolant sucks back into it.
>>>
>>> Yess this is what it was designed to do
>>>
>>>> I currently have no overflow bottle on my CJ7 so I can only have the
>>>> coolant just covering the cores by 1/4" or so or it will puke out on the
>>>> ground.
>>>>
>>>> The older rads with the side tanks and horizontal cores were better for
>>>> the open systems. You could just have the fluid down a ways on the side
>>>> tank and still not worry about dry cores.
>>>
>>> This makes no sense at all.
>>
>>The design engineers thought it made sense. If you have 4" of a side
>>tank open to air, then 20" or more of cores are still fully filled with
>>fluid.
>
>No you do because the engineers came up with the coolant recovery
>system to better deal with this problem.
>
>>
>>The side tanks had a 'full hot and full cold' mark on them even.
>>
>>If you are down 4" on a top tank 'all' the core tops are open to air and
>> only the ones at the very edge below the top rad hose will run coolant
>>when the pump flows, the rest are air locked with stagnated coolant.
>>
>>Emissions mandated the closed systems, not hood designs.
>
>THey did noi mandate horizonal cores, lower hood lines did that
>because it allows longer core time for coolant than a shorter path in
>a vertical core.
>
>>
>>Mike
>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>-----------------
>TheSnoMan.com
I've got to join in with SnoMan on this one... and as a cooling system
design engineer I can vouch for his statements.
With a cross-flow radiator you get more core face area under a low
hood line. You also have fewer tubes (within some limits) which means
lower cost to produce.
Down flow radiators do operate at near full capacity even if the top
few inches of the tubes 'run dry' - they don't really run dry because
the coolant in the top tank still passes through these tubes in normal
operation and dissipate heat the passing airstream.
On a cross flow otoh, when the tubes are dry they really are dry since
the coolant in the side mounted tank falls to the bottom of the tank
before it enters a tube.
Car makers run a test call 'pull down' to ascertain how much coolant
can be lost and still maintain effective cooling. Down flow radiators
have a greater margin than cross flow.
And a coolant recovery system with a good cap is the best way to
ensure effective cooling. Replacing the cap every year when you
change your coolant is a good idea too.
reboot
---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 000727-1, 03/23/2007
Tested on: 3/24/2007 8:04:01 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com
>On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 14:20:34 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>SnoMan wrote:
>>> On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:26:17 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The newer rad systems are designed to use an overflow bottle and have
>>>> the rad full to the top all the time.
>>>>
>>>> This means as they warm up, the coolant comes out of the rad into the
>>>> overflow bottle. The rad cap is a two way cap. As the rad cools down,
>>>> the coolant sucks back into it.
>>>
>>> Yess this is what it was designed to do
>>>
>>>> I currently have no overflow bottle on my CJ7 so I can only have the
>>>> coolant just covering the cores by 1/4" or so or it will puke out on the
>>>> ground.
>>>>
>>>> The older rads with the side tanks and horizontal cores were better for
>>>> the open systems. You could just have the fluid down a ways on the side
>>>> tank and still not worry about dry cores.
>>>
>>> This makes no sense at all.
>>
>>The design engineers thought it made sense. If you have 4" of a side
>>tank open to air, then 20" or more of cores are still fully filled with
>>fluid.
>
>No you do because the engineers came up with the coolant recovery
>system to better deal with this problem.
>
>>
>>The side tanks had a 'full hot and full cold' mark on them even.
>>
>>If you are down 4" on a top tank 'all' the core tops are open to air and
>> only the ones at the very edge below the top rad hose will run coolant
>>when the pump flows, the rest are air locked with stagnated coolant.
>>
>>Emissions mandated the closed systems, not hood designs.
>
>THey did noi mandate horizonal cores, lower hood lines did that
>because it allows longer core time for coolant than a shorter path in
>a vertical core.
>
>>
>>Mike
>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>-----------------
>TheSnoMan.com
I've got to join in with SnoMan on this one... and as a cooling system
design engineer I can vouch for his statements.
With a cross-flow radiator you get more core face area under a low
hood line. You also have fewer tubes (within some limits) which means
lower cost to produce.
Down flow radiators do operate at near full capacity even if the top
few inches of the tubes 'run dry' - they don't really run dry because
the coolant in the top tank still passes through these tubes in normal
operation and dissipate heat the passing airstream.
On a cross flow otoh, when the tubes are dry they really are dry since
the coolant in the side mounted tank falls to the bottom of the tank
before it enters a tube.
Car makers run a test call 'pull down' to ascertain how much coolant
can be lost and still maintain effective cooling. Down flow radiators
have a greater margin than cross flow.
And a coolant recovery system with a good cap is the best way to
ensure effective cooling. Replacing the cap every year when you
change your coolant is a good idea too.
reboot
---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 000727-1, 03/23/2007
Tested on: 3/24/2007 8:04:01 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com
03-24-2007, 08:04 PM
#148
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: CJ-5 Heater Fan Upgrade Questions. Now Dead 350 'from' a backfire...Update
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 21:33:39 GMT, SnoMan <admin@snoman.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 14:20:34 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>SnoMan wrote:
>>> On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:26:17 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The newer rad systems are designed to use an overflow bottle and have
>>>> the rad full to the top all the time.
>>>>
>>>> This means as they warm up, the coolant comes out of the rad into the
>>>> overflow bottle. The rad cap is a two way cap. As the rad cools down,
>>>> the coolant sucks back into it.
>>>
>>> Yess this is what it was designed to do
>>>
>>>> I currently have no overflow bottle on my CJ7 so I can only have the
>>>> coolant just covering the cores by 1/4" or so or it will puke out on the
>>>> ground.
>>>>
>>>> The older rads with the side tanks and horizontal cores were better for
>>>> the open systems. You could just have the fluid down a ways on the side
>>>> tank and still not worry about dry cores.
>>>
>>> This makes no sense at all.
>>
>>The design engineers thought it made sense. If you have 4" of a side
>>tank open to air, then 20" or more of cores are still fully filled with
>>fluid.
>
>No you do because the engineers came up with the coolant recovery
>system to better deal with this problem.
>
>>
>>The side tanks had a 'full hot and full cold' mark on them even.
>>
>>If you are down 4" on a top tank 'all' the core tops are open to air and
>> only the ones at the very edge below the top rad hose will run coolant
>>when the pump flows, the rest are air locked with stagnated coolant.
>>
>>Emissions mandated the closed systems, not hood designs.
>
>THey did noi mandate horizonal cores, lower hood lines did that
>because it allows longer core time for coolant than a shorter path in
>a vertical core.
>
>>
>>Mike
>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>-----------------
>TheSnoMan.com
I've got to join in with SnoMan on this one... and as a cooling system
design engineer I can vouch for his statements.
With a cross-flow radiator you get more core face area under a low
hood line. You also have fewer tubes (within some limits) which means
lower cost to produce.
Down flow radiators do operate at near full capacity even if the top
few inches of the tubes 'run dry' - they don't really run dry because
the coolant in the top tank still passes through these tubes in normal
operation and dissipate heat the passing airstream.
On a cross flow otoh, when the tubes are dry they really are dry since
the coolant in the side mounted tank falls to the bottom of the tank
before it enters a tube.
Car makers run a test call 'pull down' to ascertain how much coolant
can be lost and still maintain effective cooling. Down flow radiators
have a greater margin than cross flow.
And a coolant recovery system with a good cap is the best way to
ensure effective cooling. Replacing the cap every year when you
change your coolant is a good idea too.
reboot
---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 000727-1, 03/23/2007
Tested on: 3/24/2007 8:04:01 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com
>On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 14:20:34 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>SnoMan wrote:
>>> On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:26:17 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The newer rad systems are designed to use an overflow bottle and have
>>>> the rad full to the top all the time.
>>>>
>>>> This means as they warm up, the coolant comes out of the rad into the
>>>> overflow bottle. The rad cap is a two way cap. As the rad cools down,
>>>> the coolant sucks back into it.
>>>
>>> Yess this is what it was designed to do
>>>
>>>> I currently have no overflow bottle on my CJ7 so I can only have the
>>>> coolant just covering the cores by 1/4" or so or it will puke out on the
>>>> ground.
>>>>
>>>> The older rads with the side tanks and horizontal cores were better for
>>>> the open systems. You could just have the fluid down a ways on the side
>>>> tank and still not worry about dry cores.
>>>
>>> This makes no sense at all.
>>
>>The design engineers thought it made sense. If you have 4" of a side
>>tank open to air, then 20" or more of cores are still fully filled with
>>fluid.
>
>No you do because the engineers came up with the coolant recovery
>system to better deal with this problem.
>
>>
>>The side tanks had a 'full hot and full cold' mark on them even.
>>
>>If you are down 4" on a top tank 'all' the core tops are open to air and
>> only the ones at the very edge below the top rad hose will run coolant
>>when the pump flows, the rest are air locked with stagnated coolant.
>>
>>Emissions mandated the closed systems, not hood designs.
>
>THey did noi mandate horizonal cores, lower hood lines did that
>because it allows longer core time for coolant than a shorter path in
>a vertical core.
>
>>
>>Mike
>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>-----------------
>TheSnoMan.com
I've got to join in with SnoMan on this one... and as a cooling system
design engineer I can vouch for his statements.
With a cross-flow radiator you get more core face area under a low
hood line. You also have fewer tubes (within some limits) which means
lower cost to produce.
Down flow radiators do operate at near full capacity even if the top
few inches of the tubes 'run dry' - they don't really run dry because
the coolant in the top tank still passes through these tubes in normal
operation and dissipate heat the passing airstream.
On a cross flow otoh, when the tubes are dry they really are dry since
the coolant in the side mounted tank falls to the bottom of the tank
before it enters a tube.
Car makers run a test call 'pull down' to ascertain how much coolant
can be lost and still maintain effective cooling. Down flow radiators
have a greater margin than cross flow.
And a coolant recovery system with a good cap is the best way to
ensure effective cooling. Replacing the cap every year when you
change your coolant is a good idea too.
reboot
---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 000727-1, 03/23/2007
Tested on: 3/24/2007 8:04:01 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com
03-25-2007, 04:37 AM
#149
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: CJ-5 Heater Fan Upgrade Questions. Now Dead 350 'from' a backfire...Update
I used a Corvette four core cross flow in my CJ-2A because of size
restrictions, you mentioned. We disagree BIG time on running it low, the
coolant doesn't back up enough even at high RPM to use any channels above
the level. Making the pressure cap and recover tank, you mentioned critical!
Probably the biggest reason we don't see any Renaults on the road.
God Bless America, Bill 0|||||||0
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/pismo.htm
"reboot" <reboot@nothere.com> wrote in message
news:8leb035tpl3ul3n6f84qpmj31vlcreblom@4ax.com...
>
> I've got to join in with SnoMan on this one... and as a cooling system
> design engineer I can vouch for his statements.
>
> With a cross-flow radiator you get more core face area under a low
> hood line. You also have fewer tubes (within some limits) which means
> lower cost to produce.
>
> Down flow radiators do operate at near full capacity even if the top
> few inches of the tubes 'run dry' - they don't really run dry because
> the coolant in the top tank still passes through these tubes in normal
> operation and dissipate heat the passing airstream.
>
> On a cross flow otoh, when the tubes are dry they really are dry since
> the coolant in the side mounted tank falls to the bottom of the tank
> before it enters a tube.
>
> Car makers run a test call 'pull down' to ascertain how much coolant
> can be lost and still maintain effective cooling. Down flow radiators
> have a greater margin than cross flow.
>
> And a coolant recovery system with a good cap is the best way to
> ensure effective cooling. Replacing the cap every year when you
> change your coolant is a good idea too.
>
> reboot
>
>
> ---
> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
> Virus Database (VPS): 000727-1, 03/23/2007
> Tested on: 3/24/2007 8:04:01 PM
> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
> http://www.avast.com
>
>
>
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
restrictions, you mentioned. We disagree BIG time on running it low, the
coolant doesn't back up enough even at high RPM to use any channels above
the level. Making the pressure cap and recover tank, you mentioned critical!
Probably the biggest reason we don't see any Renaults on the road.
God Bless America, Bill 0|||||||0
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/pismo.htm
"reboot" <reboot@nothere.com> wrote in message
news:8leb035tpl3ul3n6f84qpmj31vlcreblom@4ax.com...
>
> I've got to join in with SnoMan on this one... and as a cooling system
> design engineer I can vouch for his statements.
>
> With a cross-flow radiator you get more core face area under a low
> hood line. You also have fewer tubes (within some limits) which means
> lower cost to produce.
>
> Down flow radiators do operate at near full capacity even if the top
> few inches of the tubes 'run dry' - they don't really run dry because
> the coolant in the top tank still passes through these tubes in normal
> operation and dissipate heat the passing airstream.
>
> On a cross flow otoh, when the tubes are dry they really are dry since
> the coolant in the side mounted tank falls to the bottom of the tank
> before it enters a tube.
>
> Car makers run a test call 'pull down' to ascertain how much coolant
> can be lost and still maintain effective cooling. Down flow radiators
> have a greater margin than cross flow.
>
> And a coolant recovery system with a good cap is the best way to
> ensure effective cooling. Replacing the cap every year when you
> change your coolant is a good idea too.
>
> reboot
>
>
> ---
> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
> Virus Database (VPS): 000727-1, 03/23/2007
> Tested on: 3/24/2007 8:04:01 PM
> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
> http://www.avast.com
>
>
>
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
03-25-2007, 04:37 AM
#150
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: CJ-5 Heater Fan Upgrade Questions. Now Dead 350 'from' a backfire...Update
I used a Corvette four core cross flow in my CJ-2A because of size
restrictions, you mentioned. We disagree BIG time on running it low, the
coolant doesn't back up enough even at high RPM to use any channels above
the level. Making the pressure cap and recover tank, you mentioned critical!
Probably the biggest reason we don't see any Renaults on the road.
God Bless America, Bill 0|||||||0
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/pismo.htm
"reboot" <reboot@nothere.com> wrote in message
news:8leb035tpl3ul3n6f84qpmj31vlcreblom@4ax.com...
>
> I've got to join in with SnoMan on this one... and as a cooling system
> design engineer I can vouch for his statements.
>
> With a cross-flow radiator you get more core face area under a low
> hood line. You also have fewer tubes (within some limits) which means
> lower cost to produce.
>
> Down flow radiators do operate at near full capacity even if the top
> few inches of the tubes 'run dry' - they don't really run dry because
> the coolant in the top tank still passes through these tubes in normal
> operation and dissipate heat the passing airstream.
>
> On a cross flow otoh, when the tubes are dry they really are dry since
> the coolant in the side mounted tank falls to the bottom of the tank
> before it enters a tube.
>
> Car makers run a test call 'pull down' to ascertain how much coolant
> can be lost and still maintain effective cooling. Down flow radiators
> have a greater margin than cross flow.
>
> And a coolant recovery system with a good cap is the best way to
> ensure effective cooling. Replacing the cap every year when you
> change your coolant is a good idea too.
>
> reboot
>
>
> ---
> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
> Virus Database (VPS): 000727-1, 03/23/2007
> Tested on: 3/24/2007 8:04:01 PM
> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
> http://www.avast.com
>
>
>
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
restrictions, you mentioned. We disagree BIG time on running it low, the
coolant doesn't back up enough even at high RPM to use any channels above
the level. Making the pressure cap and recover tank, you mentioned critical!
Probably the biggest reason we don't see any Renaults on the road.
God Bless America, Bill 0|||||||0
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/pismo.htm
"reboot" <reboot@nothere.com> wrote in message
news:8leb035tpl3ul3n6f84qpmj31vlcreblom@4ax.com...
>
> I've got to join in with SnoMan on this one... and as a cooling system
> design engineer I can vouch for his statements.
>
> With a cross-flow radiator you get more core face area under a low
> hood line. You also have fewer tubes (within some limits) which means
> lower cost to produce.
>
> Down flow radiators do operate at near full capacity even if the top
> few inches of the tubes 'run dry' - they don't really run dry because
> the coolant in the top tank still passes through these tubes in normal
> operation and dissipate heat the passing airstream.
>
> On a cross flow otoh, when the tubes are dry they really are dry since
> the coolant in the side mounted tank falls to the bottom of the tank
> before it enters a tube.
>
> Car makers run a test call 'pull down' to ascertain how much coolant
> can be lost and still maintain effective cooling. Down flow radiators
> have a greater margin than cross flow.
>
> And a coolant recovery system with a good cap is the best way to
> ensure effective cooling. Replacing the cap every year when you
> change your coolant is a good idea too.
>
> reboot
>
>
> ---
> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
> Virus Database (VPS): 000727-1, 03/23/2007
> Tested on: 3/24/2007 8:04:01 PM
> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
> http://www.avast.com
>
>
>
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
