Lon

Lee Ayrton proclaimed:
> Lon wrote:
>
>> whell proclaimed:
>>
>>> My '96 cherokee sport, 4.0L 6. Starter "drags" when starting. It has
>>> a new
>>> battery, newly cleaned terminals, and a new starter. Can any one tell me
>>> what else might cause this problem? Thank you.
>>>
>>
>> Define "drags". Does it turn too slowly? If so, get a cheap digital
>> voltmeter and put one terminal at the battery positive post and one at
>> the other end of that cable at the solenoid post. You should see no
>> more than 0.2 volts when cranking. Be sure to put the meter terminals
>> on the posts rather than on the cable connector, as it could be the
>> connectors. You really should never see anywhere near 2 tenths of a
>> volt even when cranking, I had reason to measure mine recently and it
>> was much more like 2 hundredths of a volt. Then measure from the
>> case of the starter to the negative post on your battery when
>> cranking. Again, two tenths of a volt is way too much. On your model
>> I'd expect more problems along the ground path than along the positive
>> path.
>
>
> I'm stumped, Lon. What are you measuring with this test? Is it that
> resistance in the connections allows voltage leakage through the meter
> (as an alternate, lower resistance path)?

Resistance in the path, measured indirectly by the voltage drop on the
path. Important to first measure from post to terminal stud, then if
excessive drop is found, measure along the path until the spot is found.
Factory manual says 2 tenths of a volt max. In actual measurement with
a Fluke digital, I ran into more like 2 hundredths along most of the
high current paths. Quickest way to narrow down is from positive
battery terminal to positive stud on solenoid [then to the starter side
stud which is exposed on most starters] and then from starter body to
battery negative--which measures the bulk ground path drop.

I've seen a tenth or so drop just by measuring from the battery post to
the battery terminal under cranking current... pretty good sign that
cleaning and re-tightening is needed.

Lon

Lee Ayrton proclaimed:
> Lon wrote:
>
>> whell proclaimed:
>>
>>> My '96 cherokee sport, 4.0L 6. Starter "drags" when starting. It has
>>> a new
>>> battery, newly cleaned terminals, and a new starter. Can any one tell me
>>> what else might cause this problem? Thank you.
>>>
>>
>> Define "drags". Does it turn too slowly? If so, get a cheap digital
>> voltmeter and put one terminal at the battery positive post and one at
>> the other end of that cable at the solenoid post. You should see no
>> more than 0.2 volts when cranking. Be sure to put the meter terminals
>> on the posts rather than on the cable connector, as it could be the
>> connectors. You really should never see anywhere near 2 tenths of a
>> volt even when cranking, I had reason to measure mine recently and it
>> was much more like 2 hundredths of a volt. Then measure from the
>> case of the starter to the negative post on your battery when
>> cranking. Again, two tenths of a volt is way too much. On your model
>> I'd expect more problems along the ground path than along the positive
>> path.
>
>
> I'm stumped, Lon. What are you measuring with this test? Is it that
> resistance in the connections allows voltage leakage through the meter
> (as an alternate, lower resistance path)?

Resistance in the path, measured indirectly by the voltage drop on the
path. Important to first measure from post to terminal stud, then if
excessive drop is found, measure along the path until the spot is found.
Factory manual says 2 tenths of a volt max. In actual measurement with
a Fluke digital, I ran into more like 2 hundredths along most of the
high current paths. Quickest way to narrow down is from positive
battery terminal to positive stud on solenoid [then to the starter side
stud which is exposed on most starters] and then from starter body to
battery negative--which measures the bulk ground path drop.

I've seen a tenth or so drop just by measuring from the battery post to
the battery terminal under cranking current... pretty good sign that
cleaning and re-tightening is needed.

Lon

Lee Ayrton proclaimed:
> Lon wrote:
>
>> whell proclaimed:
>>
>>> My '96 cherokee sport, 4.0L 6. Starter "drags" when starting. It has
>>> a new
>>> battery, newly cleaned terminals, and a new starter. Can any one tell me
>>> what else might cause this problem? Thank you.
>>>
>>
>> Define "drags". Does it turn too slowly? If so, get a cheap digital
>> voltmeter and put one terminal at the battery positive post and one at
>> the other end of that cable at the solenoid post. You should see no
>> more than 0.2 volts when cranking. Be sure to put the meter terminals
>> on the posts rather than on the cable connector, as it could be the
>> connectors. You really should never see anywhere near 2 tenths of a
>> volt even when cranking, I had reason to measure mine recently and it
>> was much more like 2 hundredths of a volt. Then measure from the
>> case of the starter to the negative post on your battery when
>> cranking. Again, two tenths of a volt is way too much. On your model
>> I'd expect more problems along the ground path than along the positive
>> path.
>
>
> I'm stumped, Lon. What are you measuring with this test? Is it that
> resistance in the connections allows voltage leakage through the meter
> (as an alternate, lower resistance path)?

Resistance in the path, measured indirectly by the voltage drop on the
path. Important to first measure from post to terminal stud, then if
excessive drop is found, measure along the path until the spot is found.
Factory manual says 2 tenths of a volt max. In actual measurement with
a Fluke digital, I ran into more like 2 hundredths along most of the
high current paths. Quickest way to narrow down is from positive
battery terminal to positive stud on solenoid [then to the starter side
stud which is exposed on most starters] and then from starter body to
battery negative--which measures the bulk ground path drop.

I've seen a tenth or so drop just by measuring from the battery post to
the battery terminal under cranking current... pretty good sign that
cleaning and re-tightening is needed.

Lee Ayrton

Lon wrote:
> Lee Ayrton proclaimed:
>
>> Lon wrote:
>>
>>> whell proclaimed:
>>>
>>>> My '96 cherokee sport, 4.0L 6. Starter "drags" when starting. It has
>>>> a new
>>>> battery, newly cleaned terminals, and a new starter. Can any one
>>>> tell me
>>>> what else might cause this problem? Thank you.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Define "drags". Does it turn too slowly? If so, get a cheap
>>> digital voltmeter and put one terminal at the battery positive post
>>> and one at the other end of that cable at the solenoid post. You
>>> should see no more than 0.2 volts when cranking. Be sure to put the
>>> meter terminals on the posts rather than on the cable connector, as
>>> it could be the connectors. You really should never see anywhere
>>> near 2 tenths of a volt even when cranking, I had reason to measure
>>> mine recently and it was much more like 2 hundredths of a volt.
>>> Then measure from the case of the starter to the negative post on
>>> your battery when cranking. Again, two tenths of a volt is way too
>>> much. On your model I'd expect more problems along the ground path
>>> than along the positive path.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm stumped, Lon. What are you measuring with this test? Is it that
>> resistance in the connections allows voltage leakage through the meter
>> (as an alternate, lower resistance path)?
>
>
> Resistance in the path, measured indirectly by the voltage drop on the
> path. Important to first measure from post to terminal stud, then if
> excessive drop is found, measure along the path until the spot is found.
> Factory manual says 2 tenths of a volt max. In actual measurement with
> a Fluke digital, I ran into more like 2 hundredths along most of the
> high current paths. Quickest way to narrow down is from positive
> battery terminal to positive stud on solenoid [then to the starter side
> stud which is exposed on most starters] and then from starter body to
> battery negative--which measures the bulk ground path drop.
>
> I've seen a tenth or so drop just by measuring from the battery post to
> the battery terminal under cranking current... pretty good sign that
> cleaning and re-tightening is needed.

OK, I see now. The voltage drops due to resistance under load from say
13V at the battery post to, say, 12.8 at the starter post and the meter
sees only the 0.2V difference -- because it has access to the original
13V that can't quite get to the starter.

Am I correct in guessing that this is a better diagnostic test than
simply metering the voltage between the starter post and ground during
cranking because while you may see the voltage drop you'd also be
including all the other resistances in the system and not know where the
real problem was?

Lee Ayrton

Lon wrote:
> Lee Ayrton proclaimed:
>
>> Lon wrote:
>>
>>> whell proclaimed:
>>>
>>>> My '96 cherokee sport, 4.0L 6. Starter "drags" when starting. It has
>>>> a new
>>>> battery, newly cleaned terminals, and a new starter. Can any one
>>>> tell me
>>>> what else might cause this problem? Thank you.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Define "drags". Does it turn too slowly? If so, get a cheap
>>> digital voltmeter and put one terminal at the battery positive post
>>> and one at the other end of that cable at the solenoid post. You
>>> should see no more than 0.2 volts when cranking. Be sure to put the
>>> meter terminals on the posts rather than on the cable connector, as
>>> it could be the connectors. You really should never see anywhere
>>> near 2 tenths of a volt even when cranking, I had reason to measure
>>> mine recently and it was much more like 2 hundredths of a volt.
>>> Then measure from the case of the starter to the negative post on
>>> your battery when cranking. Again, two tenths of a volt is way too
>>> much. On your model I'd expect more problems along the ground path
>>> than along the positive path.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm stumped, Lon. What are you measuring with this test? Is it that
>> resistance in the connections allows voltage leakage through the meter
>> (as an alternate, lower resistance path)?
>
>
> Resistance in the path, measured indirectly by the voltage drop on the
> path. Important to first measure from post to terminal stud, then if
> excessive drop is found, measure along the path until the spot is found.
> Factory manual says 2 tenths of a volt max. In actual measurement with
> a Fluke digital, I ran into more like 2 hundredths along most of the
> high current paths. Quickest way to narrow down is from positive
> battery terminal to positive stud on solenoid [then to the starter side
> stud which is exposed on most starters] and then from starter body to
> battery negative--which measures the bulk ground path drop.
>
> I've seen a tenth or so drop just by measuring from the battery post to
> the battery terminal under cranking current... pretty good sign that
> cleaning and re-tightening is needed.

OK, I see now. The voltage drops due to resistance under load from say
13V at the battery post to, say, 12.8 at the starter post and the meter
sees only the 0.2V difference -- because it has access to the original
13V that can't quite get to the starter.

Am I correct in guessing that this is a better diagnostic test than
simply metering the voltage between the starter post and ground during
cranking because while you may see the voltage drop you'd also be
including all the other resistances in the system and not know where the
real problem was?

Lee Ayrton

Lon wrote:
> Lee Ayrton proclaimed:
>
>> Lon wrote:
>>
>>> whell proclaimed:
>>>
>>>> My '96 cherokee sport, 4.0L 6. Starter "drags" when starting. It has
>>>> a new
>>>> battery, newly cleaned terminals, and a new starter. Can any one
>>>> tell me
>>>> what else might cause this problem? Thank you.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Define "drags". Does it turn too slowly? If so, get a cheap
>>> digital voltmeter and put one terminal at the battery positive post
>>> and one at the other end of that cable at the solenoid post. You
>>> should see no more than 0.2 volts when cranking. Be sure to put the
>>> meter terminals on the posts rather than on the cable connector, as
>>> it could be the connectors. You really should never see anywhere
>>> near 2 tenths of a volt even when cranking, I had reason to measure
>>> mine recently and it was much more like 2 hundredths of a volt.
>>> Then measure from the case of the starter to the negative post on
>>> your battery when cranking. Again, two tenths of a volt is way too
>>> much. On your model I'd expect more problems along the ground path
>>> than along the positive path.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm stumped, Lon. What are you measuring with this test? Is it that
>> resistance in the connections allows voltage leakage through the meter
>> (as an alternate, lower resistance path)?
>
>
> Resistance in the path, measured indirectly by the voltage drop on the
> path. Important to first measure from post to terminal stud, then if
> excessive drop is found, measure along the path until the spot is found.
> Factory manual says 2 tenths of a volt max. In actual measurement with
> a Fluke digital, I ran into more like 2 hundredths along most of the
> high current paths. Quickest way to narrow down is from positive
> battery terminal to positive stud on solenoid [then to the starter side
> stud which is exposed on most starters] and then from starter body to
> battery negative--which measures the bulk ground path drop.
>
> I've seen a tenth or so drop just by measuring from the battery post to
> the battery terminal under cranking current... pretty good sign that
> cleaning and re-tightening is needed.

OK, I see now. The voltage drops due to resistance under load from say
13V at the battery post to, say, 12.8 at the starter post and the meter
sees only the 0.2V difference -- because it has access to the original
13V that can't quite get to the starter.

Am I correct in guessing that this is a better diagnostic test than
simply metering the voltage between the starter post and ground during
cranking because while you may see the voltage drop you'd also be
including all the other resistances in the system and not know where the
real problem was?

Lon

Lee Ayrton proclaimed:

> Lon wrote:
>
>> Lee Ayrton proclaimed:
>>
>>> Lon wrote:
>>>
>>>> whell proclaimed:
>>>>
>>>>> My '96 cherokee sport, 4.0L 6. Starter "drags" when starting. It
>>>>> has a new
>>>>> battery, newly cleaned terminals, and a new starter. Can any one
>>>>> tell me
>>>>> what else might cause this problem? Thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Define "drags". Does it turn too slowly? If so, get a cheap
>>>> digital voltmeter and put one terminal at the battery positive post
>>>> and one at the other end of that cable at the solenoid post. You
>>>> should see no more than 0.2 volts when cranking. Be sure to put the
>>>> meter terminals on the posts rather than on the cable connector, as
>>>> it could be the connectors. You really should never see anywhere
>>>> near 2 tenths of a volt even when cranking, I had reason to measure
>>>> mine recently and it was much more like 2 hundredths of a volt.
>>>> Then measure from the case of the starter to the negative post on
>>>> your battery when cranking. Again, two tenths of a volt is way too
>>>> much. On your model I'd expect more problems along the ground path
>>>> than along the positive path.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm stumped, Lon. What are you measuring with this test? Is it that
>>> resistance in the connections allows voltage leakage through the
>>> meter (as an alternate, lower resistance path)?
>>
>>
>>
>> Resistance in the path, measured indirectly by the voltage drop on the
>> path. Important to first measure from post to terminal stud, then if
>> excessive drop is found, measure along the path until the spot is found.
>> Factory manual says 2 tenths of a volt max. In actual measurement
>> with a Fluke digital, I ran into more like 2 hundredths along most of
>> the high current paths. Quickest way to narrow down is from positive
>> battery terminal to positive stud on solenoid [then to the starter
>> side stud which is exposed on most starters] and then from starter
>> body to battery negative--which measures the bulk ground path drop.
>>
>> I've seen a tenth or so drop just by measuring from the battery post
>> to the battery terminal under cranking current... pretty good sign
>> that cleaning and re-tightening is needed.
>
>
> OK, I see now. The voltage drops due to resistance under load from say
> 13V at the battery post to, say, 12.8 at the starter post and the meter
> sees only the 0.2V difference -- because it has access to the original
> 13V that can't quite get to the starter.

Close enough.

>
> Am I correct in guessing that this is a better diagnostic test than
> simply metering the voltage between the starter post and ground during
> cranking because while you may see the voltage drop you'd also be
> including all the other resistances in the system and not know where the
> real problem was?
>

Measuring the voltage between starter post and ground only would tell
you how much voltage you are able to get across the starter. Is a good
thing to do, but for example if you only get 10.3 volts at the starter
it could simply be feelthy or loose battery connection. The
presumption is that if the bulk voltage drop is high, you simply start
moving the meter across every connection point and cable until one
sticks out like a sore thumb, which tends to be the case.

Lon

Lee Ayrton proclaimed:

> Lon wrote:
>
>> Lee Ayrton proclaimed:
>>
>>> Lon wrote:
>>>
>>>> whell proclaimed:
>>>>
>>>>> My '96 cherokee sport, 4.0L 6. Starter "drags" when starting. It
>>>>> has a new
>>>>> battery, newly cleaned terminals, and a new starter. Can any one
>>>>> tell me
>>>>> what else might cause this problem? Thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Define "drags". Does it turn too slowly? If so, get a cheap
>>>> digital voltmeter and put one terminal at the battery positive post
>>>> and one at the other end of that cable at the solenoid post. You
>>>> should see no more than 0.2 volts when cranking. Be sure to put the
>>>> meter terminals on the posts rather than on the cable connector, as
>>>> it could be the connectors. You really should never see anywhere
>>>> near 2 tenths of a volt even when cranking, I had reason to measure
>>>> mine recently and it was much more like 2 hundredths of a volt.
>>>> Then measure from the case of the starter to the negative post on
>>>> your battery when cranking. Again, two tenths of a volt is way too
>>>> much. On your model I'd expect more problems along the ground path
>>>> than along the positive path.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm stumped, Lon. What are you measuring with this test? Is it that
>>> resistance in the connections allows voltage leakage through the
>>> meter (as an alternate, lower resistance path)?
>>
>>
>>
>> Resistance in the path, measured indirectly by the voltage drop on the
>> path. Important to first measure from post to terminal stud, then if
>> excessive drop is found, measure along the path until the spot is found.
>> Factory manual says 2 tenths of a volt max. In actual measurement
>> with a Fluke digital, I ran into more like 2 hundredths along most of
>> the high current paths. Quickest way to narrow down is from positive
>> battery terminal to positive stud on solenoid [then to the starter
>> side stud which is exposed on most starters] and then from starter
>> body to battery negative--which measures the bulk ground path drop.
>>
>> I've seen a tenth or so drop just by measuring from the battery post
>> to the battery terminal under cranking current... pretty good sign
>> that cleaning and re-tightening is needed.
>
>
> OK, I see now. The voltage drops due to resistance under load from say
> 13V at the battery post to, say, 12.8 at the starter post and the meter
> sees only the 0.2V difference -- because it has access to the original
> 13V that can't quite get to the starter.

Close enough.

>
> Am I correct in guessing that this is a better diagnostic test than
> simply metering the voltage between the starter post and ground during
> cranking because while you may see the voltage drop you'd also be
> including all the other resistances in the system and not know where the
> real problem was?
>

Measuring the voltage between starter post and ground only would tell
you how much voltage you are able to get across the starter. Is a good
thing to do, but for example if you only get 10.3 volts at the starter
it could simply be feelthy or loose battery connection. The
presumption is that if the bulk voltage drop is high, you simply start
moving the meter across every connection point and cable until one
sticks out like a sore thumb, which tends to be the case.

Lon

Lee Ayrton proclaimed:

> Lon wrote:
>
>> Lee Ayrton proclaimed:
>>
>>> Lon wrote:
>>>
>>>> whell proclaimed:
>>>>
>>>>> My '96 cherokee sport, 4.0L 6. Starter "drags" when starting. It
>>>>> has a new
>>>>> battery, newly cleaned terminals, and a new starter. Can any one
>>>>> tell me
>>>>> what else might cause this problem? Thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Define "drags". Does it turn too slowly? If so, get a cheap
>>>> digital voltmeter and put one terminal at the battery positive post
>>>> and one at the other end of that cable at the solenoid post. You
>>>> should see no more than 0.2 volts when cranking. Be sure to put the
>>>> meter terminals on the posts rather than on the cable connector, as
>>>> it could be the connectors. You really should never see anywhere
>>>> near 2 tenths of a volt even when cranking, I had reason to measure
>>>> mine recently and it was much more like 2 hundredths of a volt.
>>>> Then measure from the case of the starter to the negative post on
>>>> your battery when cranking. Again, two tenths of a volt is way too
>>>> much. On your model I'd expect more problems along the ground path
>>>> than along the positive path.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm stumped, Lon. What are you measuring with this test? Is it that
>>> resistance in the connections allows voltage leakage through the
>>> meter (as an alternate, lower resistance path)?
>>
>>
>>
>> Resistance in the path, measured indirectly by the voltage drop on the
>> path. Important to first measure from post to terminal stud, then if
>> excessive drop is found, measure along the path until the spot is found.
>> Factory manual says 2 tenths of a volt max. In actual measurement
>> with a Fluke digital, I ran into more like 2 hundredths along most of
>> the high current paths. Quickest way to narrow down is from positive
>> battery terminal to positive stud on solenoid [then to the starter
>> side stud which is exposed on most starters] and then from starter
>> body to battery negative--which measures the bulk ground path drop.
>>
>> I've seen a tenth or so drop just by measuring from the battery post
>> to the battery terminal under cranking current... pretty good sign
>> that cleaning and re-tightening is needed.
>
>
> OK, I see now. The voltage drops due to resistance under load from say
> 13V at the battery post to, say, 12.8 at the starter post and the meter
> sees only the 0.2V difference -- because it has access to the original
> 13V that can't quite get to the starter.

Close enough.

>
> Am I correct in guessing that this is a better diagnostic test than
> simply metering the voltage between the starter post and ground during
> cranking because while you may see the voltage drop you'd also be
> including all the other resistances in the system and not know where the
> real problem was?
>

Measuring the voltage between starter post and ground only would tell
you how much voltage you are able to get across the starter. Is a good
thing to do, but for example if you only get 10.3 volts at the starter
it could simply be feelthy or loose battery connection. The
presumption is that if the bulk voltage drop is high, you simply start
moving the meter across every connection point and cable until one
sticks out like a sore thumb, which tends to be the case.