"Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
news:20031210105344432-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> On 10 Dec 2003 09:21 AM, CRWLR posted the following:
> > The ONLY advantage to ABS on a passenger car or light truck is that
> > the vehicle operator retains directional control during panic stops.
> > That is the ONLY advantage, and do not let anybody tell you anything
> > different.
>
> ABS will also provide more even braking action during a fast stop on a
> surface with varying traction. Kind of like what is found at every
> intersection around here right now. There is a mixture of ice, snow,
> and slush, intermittently sanded throughout Anchorage. The temperature
> has warmed up to right around freezing, which is the most dangerous time
> for driving and is when ABS is the most useful.
>
You are describing times when directional control may be lost when there is
no ABS system present or working. During times of no ABS system present or
working (my BMW has an ABS system that is always present, but it likes to
stop working for some unknown reason), the tires can lock up during any
attempt to stop. If the tires lock up, directional control is lost. ABS
prevents the tires from locking up, which allows the operator to retain
directional control.

ABS never decreases stopping time or distance. Never. It always increases
steering control. Always.




> > The way ABS works is that it removes the applied brake pressure from
> > any one, or all, of the brakes when it is detected that a tire has
> > stopped turning. When that tire is rolling, it is not stopping, and
> > therefore it will go further before it does come to a stop. The
> > distinct advantage of this is that you can provide directional input
> > to a tire that is turning, and it will respond.
>
> If the operator of the vehicle reacts correctly to the ABS engagement by
> mashing down the pedal and holding it there, the rig will stop a hell of
> a lot quicker than it would if the wheels were locked up! The
> increased control is just a bonus.
>

Actually, this is only partly true. Most cars today still have what is
called 3-channel ABS. Even my BMW has this kind of ABS. With 3 channel
systems, you get ABS to each of the front tires separately, and both rear
tires at the same time. Many P/U trucks have 1 channel ABS that only affects
the rear axle, and then it does both tires the same. What I am trying to
illustrate is that when both tires on the rear axle are controlled by the
same channel in the ABS system, then if one tire begins to skid, the other
tire also loses braking pressure. Of course, there are 4 channel systems
that pulse each tire separately, but most cars haven't got them yet.

You can check this out by looking under the hood at the ABS valve body. If
there are 5 brake pipes connected to it, then you have a 3 channel system.
You need 6 lines for a full 4 channel ABS system. Two of the brake pipes
come from the Master Cylinder, one for the front brakes and one for the
rear. Three of the brake pipes go to the wheels, one to each of the front
wheels and one to the rear axle.

So, when the 3 channel ABS system is pulsing the rear axle, both brakes are
being activated and released even is one of the tires has good traction the
entire time. Your assertion that "the rig" will stop quicker may be true,
but studies have shown that ABS in a passenger car shine in the area of
retaining operator control, and this shining overshadows the downside of
increased stopping distances, especially when the passenger car under study
has a 3 channel ABS system.

 

"Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
news:20031210105344432-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> On 10 Dec 2003 09:21 AM, CRWLR posted the following:
> > The ONLY advantage to ABS on a passenger car or light truck is that
> > the vehicle operator retains directional control during panic stops.
> > That is the ONLY advantage, and do not let anybody tell you anything
> > different.
>
> ABS will also provide more even braking action during a fast stop on a
> surface with varying traction. Kind of like what is found at every
> intersection around here right now. There is a mixture of ice, snow,
> and slush, intermittently sanded throughout Anchorage. The temperature
> has warmed up to right around freezing, which is the most dangerous time
> for driving and is when ABS is the most useful.
>
You are describing times when directional control may be lost when there is
no ABS system present or working. During times of no ABS system present or
working (my BMW has an ABS system that is always present, but it likes to
stop working for some unknown reason), the tires can lock up during any
attempt to stop. If the tires lock up, directional control is lost. ABS
prevents the tires from locking up, which allows the operator to retain
directional control.

ABS never decreases stopping time or distance. Never. It always increases
steering control. Always.




> > The way ABS works is that it removes the applied brake pressure from
> > any one, or all, of the brakes when it is detected that a tire has
> > stopped turning. When that tire is rolling, it is not stopping, and
> > therefore it will go further before it does come to a stop. The
> > distinct advantage of this is that you can provide directional input
> > to a tire that is turning, and it will respond.
>
> If the operator of the vehicle reacts correctly to the ABS engagement by
> mashing down the pedal and holding it there, the rig will stop a hell of
> a lot quicker than it would if the wheels were locked up! The
> increased control is just a bonus.
>

Actually, this is only partly true. Most cars today still have what is
called 3-channel ABS. Even my BMW has this kind of ABS. With 3 channel
systems, you get ABS to each of the front tires separately, and both rear
tires at the same time. Many P/U trucks have 1 channel ABS that only affects
the rear axle, and then it does both tires the same. What I am trying to
illustrate is that when both tires on the rear axle are controlled by the
same channel in the ABS system, then if one tire begins to skid, the other
tire also loses braking pressure. Of course, there are 4 channel systems
that pulse each tire separately, but most cars haven't got them yet.

You can check this out by looking under the hood at the ABS valve body. If
there are 5 brake pipes connected to it, then you have a 3 channel system.
You need 6 lines for a full 4 channel ABS system. Two of the brake pipes
come from the Master Cylinder, one for the front brakes and one for the
rear. Three of the brake pipes go to the wheels, one to each of the front
wheels and one to the rear axle.

So, when the 3 channel ABS system is pulsing the rear axle, both brakes are
being activated and released even is one of the tires has good traction the
entire time. Your assertion that "the rig" will stop quicker may be true,
but studies have shown that ABS in a passenger car shine in the area of
retaining operator control, and this shining overshadows the downside of
increased stopping distances, especially when the passenger car under study
has a 3 channel ABS system.

 

"Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
news:20031210105344432-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> On 10 Dec 2003 09:21 AM, CRWLR posted the following:
> > The ONLY advantage to ABS on a passenger car or light truck is that
> > the vehicle operator retains directional control during panic stops.
> > That is the ONLY advantage, and do not let anybody tell you anything
> > different.
>
> ABS will also provide more even braking action during a fast stop on a
> surface with varying traction. Kind of like what is found at every
> intersection around here right now. There is a mixture of ice, snow,
> and slush, intermittently sanded throughout Anchorage. The temperature
> has warmed up to right around freezing, which is the most dangerous time
> for driving and is when ABS is the most useful.
>
You are describing times when directional control may be lost when there is
no ABS system present or working. During times of no ABS system present or
working (my BMW has an ABS system that is always present, but it likes to
stop working for some unknown reason), the tires can lock up during any
attempt to stop. If the tires lock up, directional control is lost. ABS
prevents the tires from locking up, which allows the operator to retain
directional control.

ABS never decreases stopping time or distance. Never. It always increases
steering control. Always.




> > The way ABS works is that it removes the applied brake pressure from
> > any one, or all, of the brakes when it is detected that a tire has
> > stopped turning. When that tire is rolling, it is not stopping, and
> > therefore it will go further before it does come to a stop. The
> > distinct advantage of this is that you can provide directional input
> > to a tire that is turning, and it will respond.
>
> If the operator of the vehicle reacts correctly to the ABS engagement by
> mashing down the pedal and holding it there, the rig will stop a hell of
> a lot quicker than it would if the wheels were locked up! The
> increased control is just a bonus.
>

Actually, this is only partly true. Most cars today still have what is
called 3-channel ABS. Even my BMW has this kind of ABS. With 3 channel
systems, you get ABS to each of the front tires separately, and both rear
tires at the same time. Many P/U trucks have 1 channel ABS that only affects
the rear axle, and then it does both tires the same. What I am trying to
illustrate is that when both tires on the rear axle are controlled by the
same channel in the ABS system, then if one tire begins to skid, the other
tire also loses braking pressure. Of course, there are 4 channel systems
that pulse each tire separately, but most cars haven't got them yet.

You can check this out by looking under the hood at the ABS valve body. If
there are 5 brake pipes connected to it, then you have a 3 channel system.
You need 6 lines for a full 4 channel ABS system. Two of the brake pipes
come from the Master Cylinder, one for the front brakes and one for the
rear. Three of the brake pipes go to the wheels, one to each of the front
wheels and one to the rear axle.

So, when the 3 channel ABS system is pulsing the rear axle, both brakes are
being activated and released even is one of the tires has good traction the
entire time. Your assertion that "the rig" will stop quicker may be true,
but studies have shown that ABS in a passenger car shine in the area of
retaining operator control, and this shining overshadows the downside of
increased stopping distances, especially when the passenger car under study
has a 3 channel ABS system.

 

On 11 Dec 2003 12:48 PM, CRWLR posted the following:

> ABS never decreases stopping time or distance. Never. It always
> increases steering control. Always.

A rolling object has better traction than a sliding object, and can
therefore stop in a shorter distance. Why is this so difficult to
understand?

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

 

On 11 Dec 2003 12:48 PM, CRWLR posted the following:

> ABS never decreases stopping time or distance. Never. It always
> increases steering control. Always.

A rolling object has better traction than a sliding object, and can
therefore stop in a shorter distance. Why is this so difficult to
understand?

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

 

On 11 Dec 2003 12:48 PM, CRWLR posted the following:

> ABS never decreases stopping time or distance. Never. It always
> increases steering control. Always.

A rolling object has better traction than a sliding object, and can
therefore stop in a shorter distance. Why is this so difficult to
understand?

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

 

It is you that don't understand! Maybe, you could understand a tire
accelerating a vehicle, of course if you light them up and melt the
rubber there will no traction, but if you accurate hard, transferring
the weight on the tires, the tire will make a roar as they just barley
slipping then the rubber isn't melting but at ultimate traction, same
while stop, with same roar you hear on slalom type sports car racing.
Understand now? Then there's Jeep's idea of ABS, which you waltzed
around the correct answer, the last time I asked you, when you have to
have known it will completely release both rear tires when only one
locks.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> A rolling object has better traction than a sliding object, and can
> therefore stop in a shorter distance. Why is this so difficult to
> understand?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

 

It is you that don't understand! Maybe, you could understand a tire
accelerating a vehicle, of course if you light them up and melt the
rubber there will no traction, but if you accurate hard, transferring
the weight on the tires, the tire will make a roar as they just barley
slipping then the rubber isn't melting but at ultimate traction, same
while stop, with same roar you hear on slalom type sports car racing.
Understand now? Then there's Jeep's idea of ABS, which you waltzed
around the correct answer, the last time I asked you, when you have to
have known it will completely release both rear tires when only one
locks.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> A rolling object has better traction than a sliding object, and can
> therefore stop in a shorter distance. Why is this so difficult to
> understand?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

 

It is you that don't understand! Maybe, you could understand a tire
accelerating a vehicle, of course if you light them up and melt the
rubber there will no traction, but if you accurate hard, transferring
the weight on the tires, the tire will make a roar as they just barley
slipping then the rubber isn't melting but at ultimate traction, same
while stop, with same roar you hear on slalom type sports car racing.
Understand now? Then there's Jeep's idea of ABS, which you waltzed
around the correct answer, the last time I asked you, when you have to
have known it will completely release both rear tires when only one
locks.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Del Rawlins wrote:
>
> A rolling object has better traction than a sliding object, and can
> therefore stop in a shorter distance. Why is this so difficult to
> understand?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

 

On 12 Dec 2003 08:22 AM, L.W.(?ill) ------ III posted the following:
> It is you that don't understand! Maybe, you could understand a
> tire accelerating a vehicle, of course if you light them up and melt
> the rubber there will no traction, but if you accurate hard,
> transferring the weight on the tires, the tire will make a roar as
> they just barley slipping then the rubber isn't melting but at
> ultimate traction, same while stop, with same roar you hear on slalom
> type sports car racing. Understand now? Then there's Jeep's idea of
> ABS, which you waltzed around the correct answer, the last time I
> asked you, when you have to have known it will completely release both
> rear tires when only one locks.

What you don't understand, is that the whole point of ABS is that it
will hold the tires at that point of ultimate traction with better
consistency than any but a few highly skilled drivers. Jeep's ABS, like
any other correctly set up 4 wheel ABS system, will NOT totally release
the pressure to the rear wheels when one starts to lock, it will
REGULATE (or modulate, pick whichever word you like) the fluid pressure
sent to the rear wheels to keep them them from locking up. The ABS does
the same thing that a good driver can do, except that as a driver you
can only control the overall system pressure, and not pick and choose
how much pressure goes to the left front vs. the right front or to the
rear axle. So what if Jeep's particular style of ABS can't modulate the
rear wheels independently? You as a driver can't do that either and you
also can't change the bias front to rear or side to side on the fronts
while driving, as the ABS system can.

Bottom line, the system works for those of us who understand it and are
willing to turn over the control to the machine. Those of you who can't
or won't do that, shouldn't drive vehicles equipped with ABS, but that
is no justification for incorrectly blaming the mechanism for your own
bias.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/