97 wrangler valve lifters...
11-30-2006, 01:20 PM
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 97 wrangler valve lifters...
Has anyone replaced lifters without the possible problems listed in this
post?
cal
"Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote in
message news:_86dnXg0K-r2G_bYnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> Cal wrote:
>> 2.5l, '97 wrangler, valve lifters....do I need a special tool to remove
>> the lifters? Where do I get it? Will the lifters come out without
>> removing the head? I know I could use a magnet, but there is probably
>> some varnish on the lifter. I have some rocker arm noise, will replace
>> the rocker arm, push rod, etc., and would like to replace the lifter
>> also...
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> cal
>>
>>
>
>
> Teloscoping magnet is the tool, good luck finding a lifter removal tool
> none of my area parts stores have them (Advance, Autozone etc.).
>
> That said don't change your lifters, Cam's and lifters should be replaced
> at the same time, they wear into each other developing unique wear
> patterns and unique patterns of work hardening (which is a lot like
> forging metal) on both surfaces. A new lifter (or vice versa a new cam
> while reusing old lifters) can quite possibly eat a lobe (or lifter face).
>
> Imagine it this way... that old lifter has been sitting on the same Cam
> lobe for thousands of miles, the shoulders and face of the Cam lobe are
> slightly rounded and the face of the lifter is dished, these surfaces are
> WAY HARDER than when freshly milled... Your new softer lifter is not
> dished... that means the Cam lobe is contacting the new lifter only on a
> tiny POINT, Cam lobe AND lifter face is going have extremely accelerated
> wear. Because the same lifter preload and spring pressure are being born
> on a MUCH smaller surface area, one side of which is MUCH harder than the
> other.
>
> Don't ask me how I learned this... Lets just say that it cost me the price
> of a nice set of Crane anti-pump up lifters (64 bucks), as the stock Cam
> shaft had 140k and was going to be replaced anyway.
>
> --
> Simon
> "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
post?
cal
"Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote in
message news:_86dnXg0K-r2G_bYnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> Cal wrote:
>> 2.5l, '97 wrangler, valve lifters....do I need a special tool to remove
>> the lifters? Where do I get it? Will the lifters come out without
>> removing the head? I know I could use a magnet, but there is probably
>> some varnish on the lifter. I have some rocker arm noise, will replace
>> the rocker arm, push rod, etc., and would like to replace the lifter
>> also...
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> cal
>>
>>
>
>
> Teloscoping magnet is the tool, good luck finding a lifter removal tool
> none of my area parts stores have them (Advance, Autozone etc.).
>
> That said don't change your lifters, Cam's and lifters should be replaced
> at the same time, they wear into each other developing unique wear
> patterns and unique patterns of work hardening (which is a lot like
> forging metal) on both surfaces. A new lifter (or vice versa a new cam
> while reusing old lifters) can quite possibly eat a lobe (or lifter face).
>
> Imagine it this way... that old lifter has been sitting on the same Cam
> lobe for thousands of miles, the shoulders and face of the Cam lobe are
> slightly rounded and the face of the lifter is dished, these surfaces are
> WAY HARDER than when freshly milled... Your new softer lifter is not
> dished... that means the Cam lobe is contacting the new lifter only on a
> tiny POINT, Cam lobe AND lifter face is going have extremely accelerated
> wear. Because the same lifter preload and spring pressure are being born
> on a MUCH smaller surface area, one side of which is MUCH harder than the
> other.
>
> Don't ask me how I learned this... Lets just say that it cost me the price
> of a nice set of Crane anti-pump up lifters (64 bucks), as the stock Cam
> shaft had 140k and was going to be replaced anyway.
>
> --
> Simon
> "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
11-30-2006, 01:20 PM
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 97 wrangler valve lifters...
Has anyone replaced lifters without the possible problems listed in this
post?
cal
"Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote in
message news:_86dnXg0K-r2G_bYnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> Cal wrote:
>> 2.5l, '97 wrangler, valve lifters....do I need a special tool to remove
>> the lifters? Where do I get it? Will the lifters come out without
>> removing the head? I know I could use a magnet, but there is probably
>> some varnish on the lifter. I have some rocker arm noise, will replace
>> the rocker arm, push rod, etc., and would like to replace the lifter
>> also...
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> cal
>>
>>
>
>
> Teloscoping magnet is the tool, good luck finding a lifter removal tool
> none of my area parts stores have them (Advance, Autozone etc.).
>
> That said don't change your lifters, Cam's and lifters should be replaced
> at the same time, they wear into each other developing unique wear
> patterns and unique patterns of work hardening (which is a lot like
> forging metal) on both surfaces. A new lifter (or vice versa a new cam
> while reusing old lifters) can quite possibly eat a lobe (or lifter face).
>
> Imagine it this way... that old lifter has been sitting on the same Cam
> lobe for thousands of miles, the shoulders and face of the Cam lobe are
> slightly rounded and the face of the lifter is dished, these surfaces are
> WAY HARDER than when freshly milled... Your new softer lifter is not
> dished... that means the Cam lobe is contacting the new lifter only on a
> tiny POINT, Cam lobe AND lifter face is going have extremely accelerated
> wear. Because the same lifter preload and spring pressure are being born
> on a MUCH smaller surface area, one side of which is MUCH harder than the
> other.
>
> Don't ask me how I learned this... Lets just say that it cost me the price
> of a nice set of Crane anti-pump up lifters (64 bucks), as the stock Cam
> shaft had 140k and was going to be replaced anyway.
>
> --
> Simon
> "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
post?
cal
"Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote in
message news:_86dnXg0K-r2G_bYnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> Cal wrote:
>> 2.5l, '97 wrangler, valve lifters....do I need a special tool to remove
>> the lifters? Where do I get it? Will the lifters come out without
>> removing the head? I know I could use a magnet, but there is probably
>> some varnish on the lifter. I have some rocker arm noise, will replace
>> the rocker arm, push rod, etc., and would like to replace the lifter
>> also...
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> cal
>>
>>
>
>
> Teloscoping magnet is the tool, good luck finding a lifter removal tool
> none of my area parts stores have them (Advance, Autozone etc.).
>
> That said don't change your lifters, Cam's and lifters should be replaced
> at the same time, they wear into each other developing unique wear
> patterns and unique patterns of work hardening (which is a lot like
> forging metal) on both surfaces. A new lifter (or vice versa a new cam
> while reusing old lifters) can quite possibly eat a lobe (or lifter face).
>
> Imagine it this way... that old lifter has been sitting on the same Cam
> lobe for thousands of miles, the shoulders and face of the Cam lobe are
> slightly rounded and the face of the lifter is dished, these surfaces are
> WAY HARDER than when freshly milled... Your new softer lifter is not
> dished... that means the Cam lobe is contacting the new lifter only on a
> tiny POINT, Cam lobe AND lifter face is going have extremely accelerated
> wear. Because the same lifter preload and spring pressure are being born
> on a MUCH smaller surface area, one side of which is MUCH harder than the
> other.
>
> Don't ask me how I learned this... Lets just say that it cost me the price
> of a nice set of Crane anti-pump up lifters (64 bucks), as the stock Cam
> shaft had 140k and was going to be replaced anyway.
>
> --
> Simon
> "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
11-30-2006, 01:20 PM
#13
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 97 wrangler valve lifters...
Has anyone replaced lifters without the possible problems listed in this
post?
cal
"Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote in
message news:_86dnXg0K-r2G_bYnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> Cal wrote:
>> 2.5l, '97 wrangler, valve lifters....do I need a special tool to remove
>> the lifters? Where do I get it? Will the lifters come out without
>> removing the head? I know I could use a magnet, but there is probably
>> some varnish on the lifter. I have some rocker arm noise, will replace
>> the rocker arm, push rod, etc., and would like to replace the lifter
>> also...
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> cal
>>
>>
>
>
> Teloscoping magnet is the tool, good luck finding a lifter removal tool
> none of my area parts stores have them (Advance, Autozone etc.).
>
> That said don't change your lifters, Cam's and lifters should be replaced
> at the same time, they wear into each other developing unique wear
> patterns and unique patterns of work hardening (which is a lot like
> forging metal) on both surfaces. A new lifter (or vice versa a new cam
> while reusing old lifters) can quite possibly eat a lobe (or lifter face).
>
> Imagine it this way... that old lifter has been sitting on the same Cam
> lobe for thousands of miles, the shoulders and face of the Cam lobe are
> slightly rounded and the face of the lifter is dished, these surfaces are
> WAY HARDER than when freshly milled... Your new softer lifter is not
> dished... that means the Cam lobe is contacting the new lifter only on a
> tiny POINT, Cam lobe AND lifter face is going have extremely accelerated
> wear. Because the same lifter preload and spring pressure are being born
> on a MUCH smaller surface area, one side of which is MUCH harder than the
> other.
>
> Don't ask me how I learned this... Lets just say that it cost me the price
> of a nice set of Crane anti-pump up lifters (64 bucks), as the stock Cam
> shaft had 140k and was going to be replaced anyway.
>
> --
> Simon
> "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
post?
cal
"Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote in
message news:_86dnXg0K-r2G_bYnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> Cal wrote:
>> 2.5l, '97 wrangler, valve lifters....do I need a special tool to remove
>> the lifters? Where do I get it? Will the lifters come out without
>> removing the head? I know I could use a magnet, but there is probably
>> some varnish on the lifter. I have some rocker arm noise, will replace
>> the rocker arm, push rod, etc., and would like to replace the lifter
>> also...
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> cal
>>
>>
>
>
> Teloscoping magnet is the tool, good luck finding a lifter removal tool
> none of my area parts stores have them (Advance, Autozone etc.).
>
> That said don't change your lifters, Cam's and lifters should be replaced
> at the same time, they wear into each other developing unique wear
> patterns and unique patterns of work hardening (which is a lot like
> forging metal) on both surfaces. A new lifter (or vice versa a new cam
> while reusing old lifters) can quite possibly eat a lobe (or lifter face).
>
> Imagine it this way... that old lifter has been sitting on the same Cam
> lobe for thousands of miles, the shoulders and face of the Cam lobe are
> slightly rounded and the face of the lifter is dished, these surfaces are
> WAY HARDER than when freshly milled... Your new softer lifter is not
> dished... that means the Cam lobe is contacting the new lifter only on a
> tiny POINT, Cam lobe AND lifter face is going have extremely accelerated
> wear. Because the same lifter preload and spring pressure are being born
> on a MUCH smaller surface area, one side of which is MUCH harder than the
> other.
>
> Don't ask me how I learned this... Lets just say that it cost me the price
> of a nice set of Crane anti-pump up lifters (64 bucks), as the stock Cam
> shaft had 140k and was going to be replaced anyway.
>
> --
> Simon
> "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
11-30-2006, 02:34 PM
#14
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 97 wrangler valve lifters...
I have had rocker noise or tappet noise in mine since I bought it, twelve
years ago. Simon is like one of those old geezers in the balcony of "The
Muppet Show", but in this case he knows what he is talking about. I
wouldn't replace the lifters unless the noise problem got EXTREME, and in
that case I would replace the cam too. That lifter removal tool is probably
in the KD Tools catalog.
Earle
"Cal" <codom1*IHATESPAM*@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
news:rhFbh.40699$nG1.35627@tornado.southeast.rr.co m...
> Has anyone replaced lifters without the possible problems listed in this
> post?
>
> cal
>
> "Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote
in
> message news:_86dnXg0K-r2G_bYnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> > Cal wrote:
> >> 2.5l, '97 wrangler, valve lifters....do I need a special tool to remove
> >> the lifters? Where do I get it? Will the lifters come out without
> >> removing the head? I know I could use a magnet, but there is probably
> >> some varnish on the lifter. I have some rocker arm noise, will replace
> >> the rocker arm, push rod, etc., and would like to replace the lifter
> >> also...
> >>
> >> thanks
> >>
> >> cal
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Teloscoping magnet is the tool, good luck finding a lifter removal tool
> > none of my area parts stores have them (Advance, Autozone etc.).
> >
> > That said don't change your lifters, Cam's and lifters should be
replaced
> > at the same time, they wear into each other developing unique wear
> > patterns and unique patterns of work hardening (which is a lot like
> > forging metal) on both surfaces. A new lifter (or vice versa a new cam
> > while reusing old lifters) can quite possibly eat a lobe (or lifter
face).
> >
> > Imagine it this way... that old lifter has been sitting on the same Cam
> > lobe for thousands of miles, the shoulders and face of the Cam lobe are
> > slightly rounded and the face of the lifter is dished, these surfaces
are
> > WAY HARDER than when freshly milled... Your new softer lifter is not
> > dished... that means the Cam lobe is contacting the new lifter only on a
> > tiny POINT, Cam lobe AND lifter face is going have extremely accelerated
> > wear. Because the same lifter preload and spring pressure are being born
> > on a MUCH smaller surface area, one side of which is MUCH harder than
the
> > other.
> >
> > Don't ask me how I learned this... Lets just say that it cost me the
price
> > of a nice set of Crane anti-pump up lifters (64 bucks), as the stock Cam
> > shaft had 140k and was going to be replaced anyway.
> >
> > --
> > Simon
> > "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
>
>
years ago. Simon is like one of those old geezers in the balcony of "The
Muppet Show", but in this case he knows what he is talking about. I
wouldn't replace the lifters unless the noise problem got EXTREME, and in
that case I would replace the cam too. That lifter removal tool is probably
in the KD Tools catalog.
Earle
"Cal" <codom1*IHATESPAM*@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
news:rhFbh.40699$nG1.35627@tornado.southeast.rr.co m...
> Has anyone replaced lifters without the possible problems listed in this
> post?
>
> cal
>
> "Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote
in
> message news:_86dnXg0K-r2G_bYnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> > Cal wrote:
> >> 2.5l, '97 wrangler, valve lifters....do I need a special tool to remove
> >> the lifters? Where do I get it? Will the lifters come out without
> >> removing the head? I know I could use a magnet, but there is probably
> >> some varnish on the lifter. I have some rocker arm noise, will replace
> >> the rocker arm, push rod, etc., and would like to replace the lifter
> >> also...
> >>
> >> thanks
> >>
> >> cal
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Teloscoping magnet is the tool, good luck finding a lifter removal tool
> > none of my area parts stores have them (Advance, Autozone etc.).
> >
> > That said don't change your lifters, Cam's and lifters should be
replaced
> > at the same time, they wear into each other developing unique wear
> > patterns and unique patterns of work hardening (which is a lot like
> > forging metal) on both surfaces. A new lifter (or vice versa a new cam
> > while reusing old lifters) can quite possibly eat a lobe (or lifter
face).
> >
> > Imagine it this way... that old lifter has been sitting on the same Cam
> > lobe for thousands of miles, the shoulders and face of the Cam lobe are
> > slightly rounded and the face of the lifter is dished, these surfaces
are
> > WAY HARDER than when freshly milled... Your new softer lifter is not
> > dished... that means the Cam lobe is contacting the new lifter only on a
> > tiny POINT, Cam lobe AND lifter face is going have extremely accelerated
> > wear. Because the same lifter preload and spring pressure are being born
> > on a MUCH smaller surface area, one side of which is MUCH harder than
the
> > other.
> >
> > Don't ask me how I learned this... Lets just say that it cost me the
price
> > of a nice set of Crane anti-pump up lifters (64 bucks), as the stock Cam
> > shaft had 140k and was going to be replaced anyway.
> >
> > --
> > Simon
> > "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
>
>
11-30-2006, 02:34 PM
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 97 wrangler valve lifters...
I have had rocker noise or tappet noise in mine since I bought it, twelve
years ago. Simon is like one of those old geezers in the balcony of "The
Muppet Show", but in this case he knows what he is talking about. I
wouldn't replace the lifters unless the noise problem got EXTREME, and in
that case I would replace the cam too. That lifter removal tool is probably
in the KD Tools catalog.
Earle
"Cal" <codom1*IHATESPAM*@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
news:rhFbh.40699$nG1.35627@tornado.southeast.rr.co m...
> Has anyone replaced lifters without the possible problems listed in this
> post?
>
> cal
>
> "Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote
in
> message news:_86dnXg0K-r2G_bYnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> > Cal wrote:
> >> 2.5l, '97 wrangler, valve lifters....do I need a special tool to remove
> >> the lifters? Where do I get it? Will the lifters come out without
> >> removing the head? I know I could use a magnet, but there is probably
> >> some varnish on the lifter. I have some rocker arm noise, will replace
> >> the rocker arm, push rod, etc., and would like to replace the lifter
> >> also...
> >>
> >> thanks
> >>
> >> cal
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Teloscoping magnet is the tool, good luck finding a lifter removal tool
> > none of my area parts stores have them (Advance, Autozone etc.).
> >
> > That said don't change your lifters, Cam's and lifters should be
replaced
> > at the same time, they wear into each other developing unique wear
> > patterns and unique patterns of work hardening (which is a lot like
> > forging metal) on both surfaces. A new lifter (or vice versa a new cam
> > while reusing old lifters) can quite possibly eat a lobe (or lifter
face).
> >
> > Imagine it this way... that old lifter has been sitting on the same Cam
> > lobe for thousands of miles, the shoulders and face of the Cam lobe are
> > slightly rounded and the face of the lifter is dished, these surfaces
are
> > WAY HARDER than when freshly milled... Your new softer lifter is not
> > dished... that means the Cam lobe is contacting the new lifter only on a
> > tiny POINT, Cam lobe AND lifter face is going have extremely accelerated
> > wear. Because the same lifter preload and spring pressure are being born
> > on a MUCH smaller surface area, one side of which is MUCH harder than
the
> > other.
> >
> > Don't ask me how I learned this... Lets just say that it cost me the
price
> > of a nice set of Crane anti-pump up lifters (64 bucks), as the stock Cam
> > shaft had 140k and was going to be replaced anyway.
> >
> > --
> > Simon
> > "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
>
>
years ago. Simon is like one of those old geezers in the balcony of "The
Muppet Show", but in this case he knows what he is talking about. I
wouldn't replace the lifters unless the noise problem got EXTREME, and in
that case I would replace the cam too. That lifter removal tool is probably
in the KD Tools catalog.
Earle
"Cal" <codom1*IHATESPAM*@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
news:rhFbh.40699$nG1.35627@tornado.southeast.rr.co m...
> Has anyone replaced lifters without the possible problems listed in this
> post?
>
> cal
>
> "Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote
in
> message news:_86dnXg0K-r2G_bYnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> > Cal wrote:
> >> 2.5l, '97 wrangler, valve lifters....do I need a special tool to remove
> >> the lifters? Where do I get it? Will the lifters come out without
> >> removing the head? I know I could use a magnet, but there is probably
> >> some varnish on the lifter. I have some rocker arm noise, will replace
> >> the rocker arm, push rod, etc., and would like to replace the lifter
> >> also...
> >>
> >> thanks
> >>
> >> cal
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Teloscoping magnet is the tool, good luck finding a lifter removal tool
> > none of my area parts stores have them (Advance, Autozone etc.).
> >
> > That said don't change your lifters, Cam's and lifters should be
replaced
> > at the same time, they wear into each other developing unique wear
> > patterns and unique patterns of work hardening (which is a lot like
> > forging metal) on both surfaces. A new lifter (or vice versa a new cam
> > while reusing old lifters) can quite possibly eat a lobe (or lifter
face).
> >
> > Imagine it this way... that old lifter has been sitting on the same Cam
> > lobe for thousands of miles, the shoulders and face of the Cam lobe are
> > slightly rounded and the face of the lifter is dished, these surfaces
are
> > WAY HARDER than when freshly milled... Your new softer lifter is not
> > dished... that means the Cam lobe is contacting the new lifter only on a
> > tiny POINT, Cam lobe AND lifter face is going have extremely accelerated
> > wear. Because the same lifter preload and spring pressure are being born
> > on a MUCH smaller surface area, one side of which is MUCH harder than
the
> > other.
> >
> > Don't ask me how I learned this... Lets just say that it cost me the
price
> > of a nice set of Crane anti-pump up lifters (64 bucks), as the stock Cam
> > shaft had 140k and was going to be replaced anyway.
> >
> > --
> > Simon
> > "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
>
>
11-30-2006, 02:34 PM
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 97 wrangler valve lifters...
I have had rocker noise or tappet noise in mine since I bought it, twelve
years ago. Simon is like one of those old geezers in the balcony of "The
Muppet Show", but in this case he knows what he is talking about. I
wouldn't replace the lifters unless the noise problem got EXTREME, and in
that case I would replace the cam too. That lifter removal tool is probably
in the KD Tools catalog.
Earle
"Cal" <codom1*IHATESPAM*@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
news:rhFbh.40699$nG1.35627@tornado.southeast.rr.co m...
> Has anyone replaced lifters without the possible problems listed in this
> post?
>
> cal
>
> "Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote
in
> message news:_86dnXg0K-r2G_bYnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> > Cal wrote:
> >> 2.5l, '97 wrangler, valve lifters....do I need a special tool to remove
> >> the lifters? Where do I get it? Will the lifters come out without
> >> removing the head? I know I could use a magnet, but there is probably
> >> some varnish on the lifter. I have some rocker arm noise, will replace
> >> the rocker arm, push rod, etc., and would like to replace the lifter
> >> also...
> >>
> >> thanks
> >>
> >> cal
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Teloscoping magnet is the tool, good luck finding a lifter removal tool
> > none of my area parts stores have them (Advance, Autozone etc.).
> >
> > That said don't change your lifters, Cam's and lifters should be
replaced
> > at the same time, they wear into each other developing unique wear
> > patterns and unique patterns of work hardening (which is a lot like
> > forging metal) on both surfaces. A new lifter (or vice versa a new cam
> > while reusing old lifters) can quite possibly eat a lobe (or lifter
face).
> >
> > Imagine it this way... that old lifter has been sitting on the same Cam
> > lobe for thousands of miles, the shoulders and face of the Cam lobe are
> > slightly rounded and the face of the lifter is dished, these surfaces
are
> > WAY HARDER than when freshly milled... Your new softer lifter is not
> > dished... that means the Cam lobe is contacting the new lifter only on a
> > tiny POINT, Cam lobe AND lifter face is going have extremely accelerated
> > wear. Because the same lifter preload and spring pressure are being born
> > on a MUCH smaller surface area, one side of which is MUCH harder than
the
> > other.
> >
> > Don't ask me how I learned this... Lets just say that it cost me the
price
> > of a nice set of Crane anti-pump up lifters (64 bucks), as the stock Cam
> > shaft had 140k and was going to be replaced anyway.
> >
> > --
> > Simon
> > "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
>
>
years ago. Simon is like one of those old geezers in the balcony of "The
Muppet Show", but in this case he knows what he is talking about. I
wouldn't replace the lifters unless the noise problem got EXTREME, and in
that case I would replace the cam too. That lifter removal tool is probably
in the KD Tools catalog.
Earle
"Cal" <codom1*IHATESPAM*@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
news:rhFbh.40699$nG1.35627@tornado.southeast.rr.co m...
> Has anyone replaced lifters without the possible problems listed in this
> post?
>
> cal
>
> "Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote
in
> message news:_86dnXg0K-r2G_bYnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> > Cal wrote:
> >> 2.5l, '97 wrangler, valve lifters....do I need a special tool to remove
> >> the lifters? Where do I get it? Will the lifters come out without
> >> removing the head? I know I could use a magnet, but there is probably
> >> some varnish on the lifter. I have some rocker arm noise, will replace
> >> the rocker arm, push rod, etc., and would like to replace the lifter
> >> also...
> >>
> >> thanks
> >>
> >> cal
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Teloscoping magnet is the tool, good luck finding a lifter removal tool
> > none of my area parts stores have them (Advance, Autozone etc.).
> >
> > That said don't change your lifters, Cam's and lifters should be
replaced
> > at the same time, they wear into each other developing unique wear
> > patterns and unique patterns of work hardening (which is a lot like
> > forging metal) on both surfaces. A new lifter (or vice versa a new cam
> > while reusing old lifters) can quite possibly eat a lobe (or lifter
face).
> >
> > Imagine it this way... that old lifter has been sitting on the same Cam
> > lobe for thousands of miles, the shoulders and face of the Cam lobe are
> > slightly rounded and the face of the lifter is dished, these surfaces
are
> > WAY HARDER than when freshly milled... Your new softer lifter is not
> > dished... that means the Cam lobe is contacting the new lifter only on a
> > tiny POINT, Cam lobe AND lifter face is going have extremely accelerated
> > wear. Because the same lifter preload and spring pressure are being born
> > on a MUCH smaller surface area, one side of which is MUCH harder than
the
> > other.
> >
> > Don't ask me how I learned this... Lets just say that it cost me the
price
> > of a nice set of Crane anti-pump up lifters (64 bucks), as the stock Cam
> > shaft had 140k and was going to be replaced anyway.
> >
> > --
> > Simon
> > "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
>
>
11-30-2006, 08:53 PM
#17
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 97 wrangler valve lifters...
My lifters were recently giving a lot of noise at startup and I figured
a clean needed or maybe old age....
I then changed the oil and tossed the Fram oil filter in the garbage and
went with a different brand and no more noise...
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
Earle Horton wrote:
>
> I have had rocker noise or tappet noise in mine since I bought it, twelve
> years ago. Simon is like one of those old geezers in the balcony of "The
> Muppet Show", but in this case he knows what he is talking about. I
> wouldn't replace the lifters unless the noise problem got EXTREME, and in
> that case I would replace the cam too. That lifter removal tool is probably
> in the KD Tools catalog.
>
> Earle
>
> "Cal" <codom1*IHATESPAM*@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:rhFbh.40699$nG1.35627@tornado.southeast.rr.co m...
> > Has anyone replaced lifters without the possible problems listed in this
> > post?
> >
> > cal
> >
> > "Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote
> in
> > message news:_86dnXg0K-r2G_bYnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> > > Cal wrote:
> > >> 2.5l, '97 wrangler, valve lifters....do I need a special tool to remove
> > >> the lifters? Where do I get it? Will the lifters come out without
> > >> removing the head? I know I could use a magnet, but there is probably
> > >> some varnish on the lifter. I have some rocker arm noise, will replace
> > >> the rocker arm, push rod, etc., and would like to replace the lifter
> > >> also...
> > >>
> > >> thanks
> > >>
> > >> cal
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > Teloscoping magnet is the tool, good luck finding a lifter removal tool
> > > none of my area parts stores have them (Advance, Autozone etc.).
> > >
> > > That said don't change your lifters, Cam's and lifters should be
> replaced
> > > at the same time, they wear into each other developing unique wear
> > > patterns and unique patterns of work hardening (which is a lot like
> > > forging metal) on both surfaces. A new lifter (or vice versa a new cam
> > > while reusing old lifters) can quite possibly eat a lobe (or lifter
> face).
> > >
> > > Imagine it this way... that old lifter has been sitting on the same Cam
> > > lobe for thousands of miles, the shoulders and face of the Cam lobe are
> > > slightly rounded and the face of the lifter is dished, these surfaces
> are
> > > WAY HARDER than when freshly milled... Your new softer lifter is not
> > > dished... that means the Cam lobe is contacting the new lifter only on a
> > > tiny POINT, Cam lobe AND lifter face is going have extremely accelerated
> > > wear. Because the same lifter preload and spring pressure are being born
> > > on a MUCH smaller surface area, one side of which is MUCH harder than
> the
> > > other.
> > >
> > > Don't ask me how I learned this... Lets just say that it cost me the
> price
> > > of a nice set of Crane anti-pump up lifters (64 bucks), as the stock Cam
> > > shaft had 140k and was going to be replaced anyway.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Simon
> > > "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
> >
> >
a clean needed or maybe old age....
I then changed the oil and tossed the Fram oil filter in the garbage and
went with a different brand and no more noise...
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
Earle Horton wrote:
>
> I have had rocker noise or tappet noise in mine since I bought it, twelve
> years ago. Simon is like one of those old geezers in the balcony of "The
> Muppet Show", but in this case he knows what he is talking about. I
> wouldn't replace the lifters unless the noise problem got EXTREME, and in
> that case I would replace the cam too. That lifter removal tool is probably
> in the KD Tools catalog.
>
> Earle
>
> "Cal" <codom1*IHATESPAM*@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:rhFbh.40699$nG1.35627@tornado.southeast.rr.co m...
> > Has anyone replaced lifters without the possible problems listed in this
> > post?
> >
> > cal
> >
> > "Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote
> in
> > message news:_86dnXg0K-r2G_bYnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> > > Cal wrote:
> > >> 2.5l, '97 wrangler, valve lifters....do I need a special tool to remove
> > >> the lifters? Where do I get it? Will the lifters come out without
> > >> removing the head? I know I could use a magnet, but there is probably
> > >> some varnish on the lifter. I have some rocker arm noise, will replace
> > >> the rocker arm, push rod, etc., and would like to replace the lifter
> > >> also...
> > >>
> > >> thanks
> > >>
> > >> cal
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > Teloscoping magnet is the tool, good luck finding a lifter removal tool
> > > none of my area parts stores have them (Advance, Autozone etc.).
> > >
> > > That said don't change your lifters, Cam's and lifters should be
> replaced
> > > at the same time, they wear into each other developing unique wear
> > > patterns and unique patterns of work hardening (which is a lot like
> > > forging metal) on both surfaces. A new lifter (or vice versa a new cam
> > > while reusing old lifters) can quite possibly eat a lobe (or lifter
> face).
> > >
> > > Imagine it this way... that old lifter has been sitting on the same Cam
> > > lobe for thousands of miles, the shoulders and face of the Cam lobe are
> > > slightly rounded and the face of the lifter is dished, these surfaces
> are
> > > WAY HARDER than when freshly milled... Your new softer lifter is not
> > > dished... that means the Cam lobe is contacting the new lifter only on a
> > > tiny POINT, Cam lobe AND lifter face is going have extremely accelerated
> > > wear. Because the same lifter preload and spring pressure are being born
> > > on a MUCH smaller surface area, one side of which is MUCH harder than
> the
> > > other.
> > >
> > > Don't ask me how I learned this... Lets just say that it cost me the
> price
> > > of a nice set of Crane anti-pump up lifters (64 bucks), as the stock Cam
> > > shaft had 140k and was going to be replaced anyway.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Simon
> > > "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
> >
> >
11-30-2006, 08:53 PM
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 97 wrangler valve lifters...
My lifters were recently giving a lot of noise at startup and I figured
a clean needed or maybe old age....
I then changed the oil and tossed the Fram oil filter in the garbage and
went with a different brand and no more noise...
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
Earle Horton wrote:
>
> I have had rocker noise or tappet noise in mine since I bought it, twelve
> years ago. Simon is like one of those old geezers in the balcony of "The
> Muppet Show", but in this case he knows what he is talking about. I
> wouldn't replace the lifters unless the noise problem got EXTREME, and in
> that case I would replace the cam too. That lifter removal tool is probably
> in the KD Tools catalog.
>
> Earle
>
> "Cal" <codom1*IHATESPAM*@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:rhFbh.40699$nG1.35627@tornado.southeast.rr.co m...
> > Has anyone replaced lifters without the possible problems listed in this
> > post?
> >
> > cal
> >
> > "Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote
> in
> > message news:_86dnXg0K-r2G_bYnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> > > Cal wrote:
> > >> 2.5l, '97 wrangler, valve lifters....do I need a special tool to remove
> > >> the lifters? Where do I get it? Will the lifters come out without
> > >> removing the head? I know I could use a magnet, but there is probably
> > >> some varnish on the lifter. I have some rocker arm noise, will replace
> > >> the rocker arm, push rod, etc., and would like to replace the lifter
> > >> also...
> > >>
> > >> thanks
> > >>
> > >> cal
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > Teloscoping magnet is the tool, good luck finding a lifter removal tool
> > > none of my area parts stores have them (Advance, Autozone etc.).
> > >
> > > That said don't change your lifters, Cam's and lifters should be
> replaced
> > > at the same time, they wear into each other developing unique wear
> > > patterns and unique patterns of work hardening (which is a lot like
> > > forging metal) on both surfaces. A new lifter (or vice versa a new cam
> > > while reusing old lifters) can quite possibly eat a lobe (or lifter
> face).
> > >
> > > Imagine it this way... that old lifter has been sitting on the same Cam
> > > lobe for thousands of miles, the shoulders and face of the Cam lobe are
> > > slightly rounded and the face of the lifter is dished, these surfaces
> are
> > > WAY HARDER than when freshly milled... Your new softer lifter is not
> > > dished... that means the Cam lobe is contacting the new lifter only on a
> > > tiny POINT, Cam lobe AND lifter face is going have extremely accelerated
> > > wear. Because the same lifter preload and spring pressure are being born
> > > on a MUCH smaller surface area, one side of which is MUCH harder than
> the
> > > other.
> > >
> > > Don't ask me how I learned this... Lets just say that it cost me the
> price
> > > of a nice set of Crane anti-pump up lifters (64 bucks), as the stock Cam
> > > shaft had 140k and was going to be replaced anyway.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Simon
> > > "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
> >
> >
a clean needed or maybe old age....
I then changed the oil and tossed the Fram oil filter in the garbage and
went with a different brand and no more noise...
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
Earle Horton wrote:
>
> I have had rocker noise or tappet noise in mine since I bought it, twelve
> years ago. Simon is like one of those old geezers in the balcony of "The
> Muppet Show", but in this case he knows what he is talking about. I
> wouldn't replace the lifters unless the noise problem got EXTREME, and in
> that case I would replace the cam too. That lifter removal tool is probably
> in the KD Tools catalog.
>
> Earle
>
> "Cal" <codom1*IHATESPAM*@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:rhFbh.40699$nG1.35627@tornado.southeast.rr.co m...
> > Has anyone replaced lifters without the possible problems listed in this
> > post?
> >
> > cal
> >
> > "Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote
> in
> > message news:_86dnXg0K-r2G_bYnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> > > Cal wrote:
> > >> 2.5l, '97 wrangler, valve lifters....do I need a special tool to remove
> > >> the lifters? Where do I get it? Will the lifters come out without
> > >> removing the head? I know I could use a magnet, but there is probably
> > >> some varnish on the lifter. I have some rocker arm noise, will replace
> > >> the rocker arm, push rod, etc., and would like to replace the lifter
> > >> also...
> > >>
> > >> thanks
> > >>
> > >> cal
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > Teloscoping magnet is the tool, good luck finding a lifter removal tool
> > > none of my area parts stores have them (Advance, Autozone etc.).
> > >
> > > That said don't change your lifters, Cam's and lifters should be
> replaced
> > > at the same time, they wear into each other developing unique wear
> > > patterns and unique patterns of work hardening (which is a lot like
> > > forging metal) on both surfaces. A new lifter (or vice versa a new cam
> > > while reusing old lifters) can quite possibly eat a lobe (or lifter
> face).
> > >
> > > Imagine it this way... that old lifter has been sitting on the same Cam
> > > lobe for thousands of miles, the shoulders and face of the Cam lobe are
> > > slightly rounded and the face of the lifter is dished, these surfaces
> are
> > > WAY HARDER than when freshly milled... Your new softer lifter is not
> > > dished... that means the Cam lobe is contacting the new lifter only on a
> > > tiny POINT, Cam lobe AND lifter face is going have extremely accelerated
> > > wear. Because the same lifter preload and spring pressure are being born
> > > on a MUCH smaller surface area, one side of which is MUCH harder than
> the
> > > other.
> > >
> > > Don't ask me how I learned this... Lets just say that it cost me the
> price
> > > of a nice set of Crane anti-pump up lifters (64 bucks), as the stock Cam
> > > shaft had 140k and was going to be replaced anyway.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Simon
> > > "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
> >
> >
11-30-2006, 08:53 PM
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 97 wrangler valve lifters...
My lifters were recently giving a lot of noise at startup and I figured
a clean needed or maybe old age....
I then changed the oil and tossed the Fram oil filter in the garbage and
went with a different brand and no more noise...
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
Earle Horton wrote:
>
> I have had rocker noise or tappet noise in mine since I bought it, twelve
> years ago. Simon is like one of those old geezers in the balcony of "The
> Muppet Show", but in this case he knows what he is talking about. I
> wouldn't replace the lifters unless the noise problem got EXTREME, and in
> that case I would replace the cam too. That lifter removal tool is probably
> in the KD Tools catalog.
>
> Earle
>
> "Cal" <codom1*IHATESPAM*@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:rhFbh.40699$nG1.35627@tornado.southeast.rr.co m...
> > Has anyone replaced lifters without the possible problems listed in this
> > post?
> >
> > cal
> >
> > "Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote
> in
> > message news:_86dnXg0K-r2G_bYnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> > > Cal wrote:
> > >> 2.5l, '97 wrangler, valve lifters....do I need a special tool to remove
> > >> the lifters? Where do I get it? Will the lifters come out without
> > >> removing the head? I know I could use a magnet, but there is probably
> > >> some varnish on the lifter. I have some rocker arm noise, will replace
> > >> the rocker arm, push rod, etc., and would like to replace the lifter
> > >> also...
> > >>
> > >> thanks
> > >>
> > >> cal
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > Teloscoping magnet is the tool, good luck finding a lifter removal tool
> > > none of my area parts stores have them (Advance, Autozone etc.).
> > >
> > > That said don't change your lifters, Cam's and lifters should be
> replaced
> > > at the same time, they wear into each other developing unique wear
> > > patterns and unique patterns of work hardening (which is a lot like
> > > forging metal) on both surfaces. A new lifter (or vice versa a new cam
> > > while reusing old lifters) can quite possibly eat a lobe (or lifter
> face).
> > >
> > > Imagine it this way... that old lifter has been sitting on the same Cam
> > > lobe for thousands of miles, the shoulders and face of the Cam lobe are
> > > slightly rounded and the face of the lifter is dished, these surfaces
> are
> > > WAY HARDER than when freshly milled... Your new softer lifter is not
> > > dished... that means the Cam lobe is contacting the new lifter only on a
> > > tiny POINT, Cam lobe AND lifter face is going have extremely accelerated
> > > wear. Because the same lifter preload and spring pressure are being born
> > > on a MUCH smaller surface area, one side of which is MUCH harder than
> the
> > > other.
> > >
> > > Don't ask me how I learned this... Lets just say that it cost me the
> price
> > > of a nice set of Crane anti-pump up lifters (64 bucks), as the stock Cam
> > > shaft had 140k and was going to be replaced anyway.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Simon
> > > "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
> >
> >
a clean needed or maybe old age....
I then changed the oil and tossed the Fram oil filter in the garbage and
went with a different brand and no more noise...
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
Earle Horton wrote:
>
> I have had rocker noise or tappet noise in mine since I bought it, twelve
> years ago. Simon is like one of those old geezers in the balcony of "The
> Muppet Show", but in this case he knows what he is talking about. I
> wouldn't replace the lifters unless the noise problem got EXTREME, and in
> that case I would replace the cam too. That lifter removal tool is probably
> in the KD Tools catalog.
>
> Earle
>
> "Cal" <codom1*IHATESPAM*@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:rhFbh.40699$nG1.35627@tornado.southeast.rr.co m...
> > Has anyone replaced lifters without the possible problems listed in this
> > post?
> >
> > cal
> >
> > "Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote
> in
> > message news:_86dnXg0K-r2G_bYnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> > > Cal wrote:
> > >> 2.5l, '97 wrangler, valve lifters....do I need a special tool to remove
> > >> the lifters? Where do I get it? Will the lifters come out without
> > >> removing the head? I know I could use a magnet, but there is probably
> > >> some varnish on the lifter. I have some rocker arm noise, will replace
> > >> the rocker arm, push rod, etc., and would like to replace the lifter
> > >> also...
> > >>
> > >> thanks
> > >>
> > >> cal
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > Teloscoping magnet is the tool, good luck finding a lifter removal tool
> > > none of my area parts stores have them (Advance, Autozone etc.).
> > >
> > > That said don't change your lifters, Cam's and lifters should be
> replaced
> > > at the same time, they wear into each other developing unique wear
> > > patterns and unique patterns of work hardening (which is a lot like
> > > forging metal) on both surfaces. A new lifter (or vice versa a new cam
> > > while reusing old lifters) can quite possibly eat a lobe (or lifter
> face).
> > >
> > > Imagine it this way... that old lifter has been sitting on the same Cam
> > > lobe for thousands of miles, the shoulders and face of the Cam lobe are
> > > slightly rounded and the face of the lifter is dished, these surfaces
> are
> > > WAY HARDER than when freshly milled... Your new softer lifter is not
> > > dished... that means the Cam lobe is contacting the new lifter only on a
> > > tiny POINT, Cam lobe AND lifter face is going have extremely accelerated
> > > wear. Because the same lifter preload and spring pressure are being born
> > > on a MUCH smaller surface area, one side of which is MUCH harder than
> the
> > > other.
> > >
> > > Don't ask me how I learned this... Lets just say that it cost me the
> price
> > > of a nice set of Crane anti-pump up lifters (64 bucks), as the stock Cam
> > > shaft had 140k and was going to be replaced anyway.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Simon
> > > "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
> >
> >
11-30-2006, 10:40 PM
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 97 wrangler valve lifters...
Cal wrote:
> Has anyone replaced lifters without the possible problems listed in this
> post?
Of course, it's always possible, go ahead and report back here if you
suceed.
Or if need be report back and we'll help you pull your radiator, core
support, grill, alternator, harmonic balancer, timing cover, chain, gear
set, intake, exhaust manifold, valve cover, rockers, head, lifters, and
finally Cam if things didn't work out that great.
All joking aside, all of the lifter and cam manufacturers will tell you
the exact same thing, of course they want to sell you a new cam to go
with your new lifters (or vice versa). So don't let them stop you :)
--
Simon
"I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
> Has anyone replaced lifters without the possible problems listed in this
> post?
Of course, it's always possible, go ahead and report back here if you
suceed.
Or if need be report back and we'll help you pull your radiator, core
support, grill, alternator, harmonic balancer, timing cover, chain, gear
set, intake, exhaust manifold, valve cover, rockers, head, lifters, and
finally Cam if things didn't work out that great.
All joking aside, all of the lifter and cam manufacturers will tell you
the exact same thing, of course they want to sell you a new cam to go
with your new lifters (or vice versa). So don't let them stop you :)
--
Simon
"I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
