Re: 93 Grand Cherokee-Won't Start in Cold
 

Doug,
Lot of great info and I really like your style on your Web site. I want a
supercharger now!
Going to check the distributer in the morning. If you missed it, I finally
got started up. I think through a combination of pumping the gas and holding
it to the floor. Started really rough but then almost immediately settled
down to smooth. Drove it, parked it, started it, did errands and honey-do's
and it had no problem.
I'll check fuel pressure. I have a couple R-12 gauges around here somewhere.
We'll see what happens in the morning.
Would the ESD relay behave this way as it's failing? You know, what with
cold weather starting problem I mean.
Thanks for all your help and access to a great site.
Denny
(side note, I picked text only now. Is it better? Sorry)

"DougW" <post.replies@invalid.address> wrote in message
news:wQPzb.24458$Gj2.8693@okepread01...
> "D" <dpfer@r.com> wrote in message
news:OxKzb.105969$Eq1.40720@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Hi all.
>
> <side note, html is icky> :)
>
> Going to go through a few ideas.
>
> Ignition issues including misses at speed.
> Bad sparkplug
> bured out wire
> cracked cap
> burned through rotor
> Worn out distributor. (can you move the rotor from side to side or
> is there a lot of oil in the bottom of the distributor)
> If yes, you need a new distributor.
> http://members.cox.net/wilsond/distributor/
>
> I'm almost betting your rotor has burned a hole in it and
> the spark is going through the distributor to ground.
>
> More things to check.
>
> Does the fuel pump turn on when the ignition key goes to run?
> Is the fuel rail pressure up to 32psi?
> (an R-12 gauge works well to test pressure)
> http://members.cox.net/wilsond/Fixes...-test-port.jpg
>
> Have you cleaned the Idle Air Passage in the TB?
> (usually associated with rough idle though)
> http://members.cox.net/wilsond/tb/tb.html
>
> ESD relay (emergency shutdown relay) gone bad. This will
> prevent a start, but it also prevents the fuel pump from
> cycling. (Relay center behind the battery)
>
>
> The diagnositcs page on my site might help.
> Gotta run.
>
>
> --
> -- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.cox.net/wilsond
> HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks
> Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors
>
>

Re: 93 Grand Cherokee-Won't Start in Cold
 

D did pass the time by typing:
> Doug,
> Lot of great info and I really like your style on your Web site. I want a
> supercharger now!

With as many miles as you have on that I6 you would be better off rebuilding
and stroking it out to 4.7. It would be cheaper and you wouldn't have to
run higher octane fuel.

> Going to check the distributer in the morning. If you missed it, I finally
> got started up. I think through a combination of pumping the gas and holding
> it to the floor.

That's odd because pumping on a fuel injected vehicle doesn't do anything
in particular besides confuse the ECU. Pumping is an old carb trick.

> Started really rough but then almost immediately settled
> down to smooth. Drove it, parked it, started it, did errands and honey-do's
> and it had no problem.

That sounds like air lock or leakdown. (see below)

Water in the fuel can freeze in the hoses and block the injector rail.
But if you have that much water in the system it's going to run like hell.

> I'll check fuel pressure. I have a couple R-12 gauges around here somewhere.
> We'll see what happens in the morning.
> Would the ESD relay behave this way as it's failing? You know, what with
> cold weather starting problem I mean.

I'm not tending toward that anymore after what you said, but the ASD relay
is what kills your engine and fuel pump in the event of an accident or runnaway
motor (ECU dies), Sometimes it can fail and cause no-start or other problems.

Do the leak-down test.
<http://members.cox.net/wilsond/Fixes/diagnostics.html#fuelrail>

It's not described there yet, but basically after checking to see that
the pressure is correct you turn off the engine and check to see that
the gauge doen't fall more than about 20psi or within 30min. If it drops
like a rock you have a problem. Either the backflow valve in the
pump is shot or the fuel pressure regulator is. Further tests would then
be needed to figure out which one.

> Thanks for all your help and access to a great site.

NP, and thanks. :)

> (side note, I picked text only now. Is it better? Sorry)

I don't mind html that much, but it's hard on some newsreaders
and most newgroups frown on it.

--
-- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.cox.net/wilsond
HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks
Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors

Re: 93 Grand Cherokee-Won't Start in Cold
 

D did pass the time by typing:
> Doug,
> Lot of great info and I really like your style on your Web site. I want a
> supercharger now!

With as many miles as you have on that I6 you would be better off rebuilding
and stroking it out to 4.7. It would be cheaper and you wouldn't have to
run higher octane fuel.

> Going to check the distributer in the morning. If you missed it, I finally
> got started up. I think through a combination of pumping the gas and holding
> it to the floor.

That's odd because pumping on a fuel injected vehicle doesn't do anything
in particular besides confuse the ECU. Pumping is an old carb trick.

> Started really rough but then almost immediately settled
> down to smooth. Drove it, parked it, started it, did errands and honey-do's
> and it had no problem.

That sounds like air lock or leakdown. (see below)

Water in the fuel can freeze in the hoses and block the injector rail.
But if you have that much water in the system it's going to run like hell.

> I'll check fuel pressure. I have a couple R-12 gauges around here somewhere.
> We'll see what happens in the morning.
> Would the ESD relay behave this way as it's failing? You know, what with
> cold weather starting problem I mean.

I'm not tending toward that anymore after what you said, but the ASD relay
is what kills your engine and fuel pump in the event of an accident or runnaway
motor (ECU dies), Sometimes it can fail and cause no-start or other problems.

Do the leak-down test.
<http://members.cox.net/wilsond/Fixes/diagnostics.html#fuelrail>

It's not described there yet, but basically after checking to see that
the pressure is correct you turn off the engine and check to see that
the gauge doen't fall more than about 20psi or within 30min. If it drops
like a rock you have a problem. Either the backflow valve in the
pump is shot or the fuel pressure regulator is. Further tests would then
be needed to figure out which one.

> Thanks for all your help and access to a great site.

NP, and thanks. :)

> (side note, I picked text only now. Is it better? Sorry)

I don't mind html that much, but it's hard on some newsreaders
and most newgroups frown on it.

--
-- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.cox.net/wilsond
HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks
Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors

Re: 93 Grand Cherokee-Won't Start in Cold
 

D did pass the time by typing:
> Doug,
> Lot of great info and I really like your style on your Web site. I want a
> supercharger now!

With as many miles as you have on that I6 you would be better off rebuilding
and stroking it out to 4.7. It would be cheaper and you wouldn't have to
run higher octane fuel.

> Going to check the distributer in the morning. If you missed it, I finally
> got started up. I think through a combination of pumping the gas and holding
> it to the floor.

That's odd because pumping on a fuel injected vehicle doesn't do anything
in particular besides confuse the ECU. Pumping is an old carb trick.

> Started really rough but then almost immediately settled
> down to smooth. Drove it, parked it, started it, did errands and honey-do's
> and it had no problem.

That sounds like air lock or leakdown. (see below)

Water in the fuel can freeze in the hoses and block the injector rail.
But if you have that much water in the system it's going to run like hell.

> I'll check fuel pressure. I have a couple R-12 gauges around here somewhere.
> We'll see what happens in the morning.
> Would the ESD relay behave this way as it's failing? You know, what with
> cold weather starting problem I mean.

I'm not tending toward that anymore after what you said, but the ASD relay
is what kills your engine and fuel pump in the event of an accident or runnaway
motor (ECU dies), Sometimes it can fail and cause no-start or other problems.

Do the leak-down test.
<http://members.cox.net/wilsond/Fixes/diagnostics.html#fuelrail>

It's not described there yet, but basically after checking to see that
the pressure is correct you turn off the engine and check to see that
the gauge doen't fall more than about 20psi or within 30min. If it drops
like a rock you have a problem. Either the backflow valve in the
pump is shot or the fuel pressure regulator is. Further tests would then
be needed to figure out which one.

> Thanks for all your help and access to a great site.

NP, and thanks. :)

> (side note, I picked text only now. Is it better? Sorry)

I don't mind html that much, but it's hard on some newsreaders
and most newgroups frown on it.

--
-- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.cox.net/wilsond
HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks
Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors

Re: 93 Grand Cherokee-Won't Start in Cold
 

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 05:14:26 UTC "DougW" <post.replies@invalid.address>
wrote:

> D did pass the time by typing:
> > Doug,
> > Lot of great info and I really like your style on your Web site. I want a
> > supercharger now!
>
> With as many miles as you have on that I6 you would be better off rebuilding
> and stroking it out to 4.7. It would be cheaper and you wouldn't have to
> run higher octane fuel.
>
> > Going to check the distributer in the morning. If you missed it, I finally
> > got started up. I think through a combination of pumping the gas and holding
> > it to the floor.
>
> That's odd because pumping on a fuel injected vehicle doesn't do anything
> in particular besides confuse the ECU. Pumping is an old carb trick.
>
> > Started really rough but then almost immediately settled
> > down to smooth. Drove it, parked it, started it, did errands and honey-do's
> > and it had no problem.
>
> That sounds like air lock or leakdown. (see below)
>
> Water in the fuel can freeze in the hoses and block the injector rail.
> But if you have that much water in the system it's going to run like hell.
>
> > I'll check fuel pressure. I have a couple R-12 gauges around here somewhere.
> > We'll see what happens in the morning.
> > Would the ESD relay behave this way as it's failing? You know, what with
> > cold weather starting problem I mean.
>
> I'm not tending toward that anymore after what you said, but the ASD relay
> is what kills your engine and fuel pump in the event of an accident or runnaway
> motor (ECU dies), Sometimes it can fail and cause no-start or other problems.
>
> Do the leak-down test.
> <http://members.cox.net/wilsond/Fixes/diagnostics.html#fuelrail>
>
> It's not described there yet, but basically after checking to see that
> the pressure is correct you turn off the engine and check to see that
> the gauge doen't fall more than about 20psi or within 30min. If it drops
> like a rock you have a problem. Either the backflow valve in the
> pump is shot or the fuel pressure regulator is. Further tests would then
> be needed to figure out which one.
>
> > Thanks for all your help and access to a great site.
>
> NP, and thanks. :)
>
> > (side note, I picked text only now. Is it better? Sorry)
>
> I don't mind html that much, but it's hard on some newsreaders
> and most newgroups frown on it.

Doug, there is a rationale to flooring the pedal in cold weather AFTER
you screw up the first start. The gas that floods the cylinders never
evaporates and it stays flooded unless you open the hole up enough to
get some air thru the system. I was messing with mine MJ last winter
and managed to stall it just after it started. Well, that really
smart computer in old Rennix system seems to figure that if the engine
died while it was trying to keep it running that it needs a bunch of
throttle/bypass air/fuel when it restarts - PITA! Anyway, it will
flood it but good and at -5 or so it takes a good battery and patience
to finally flush the @#$% thing out so that it runs. Starts one
cylinder at a time: chug... chug chug... chug chug chug... etc. until
it finally gets going. The first winter I was at the AF Academy I was
instructing in the T-41 (Cessna 182) and if we flooded those suckers
we either pulled the plugs and dried them of figured that bird was
parked til the next thaw. The smart thing is to follow the book and
don't touch the gas when starting but if it floods down you sure
better consider it on the re-start.


--
Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: 93 Grand Cherokee-Won't Start in Cold
 

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 05:14:26 UTC "DougW" <post.replies@invalid.address>
wrote:

> D did pass the time by typing:
> > Doug,
> > Lot of great info and I really like your style on your Web site. I want a
> > supercharger now!
>
> With as many miles as you have on that I6 you would be better off rebuilding
> and stroking it out to 4.7. It would be cheaper and you wouldn't have to
> run higher octane fuel.
>
> > Going to check the distributer in the morning. If you missed it, I finally
> > got started up. I think through a combination of pumping the gas and holding
> > it to the floor.
>
> That's odd because pumping on a fuel injected vehicle doesn't do anything
> in particular besides confuse the ECU. Pumping is an old carb trick.
>
> > Started really rough but then almost immediately settled
> > down to smooth. Drove it, parked it, started it, did errands and honey-do's
> > and it had no problem.
>
> That sounds like air lock or leakdown. (see below)
>
> Water in the fuel can freeze in the hoses and block the injector rail.
> But if you have that much water in the system it's going to run like hell.
>
> > I'll check fuel pressure. I have a couple R-12 gauges around here somewhere.
> > We'll see what happens in the morning.
> > Would the ESD relay behave this way as it's failing? You know, what with
> > cold weather starting problem I mean.
>
> I'm not tending toward that anymore after what you said, but the ASD relay
> is what kills your engine and fuel pump in the event of an accident or runnaway
> motor (ECU dies), Sometimes it can fail and cause no-start or other problems.
>
> Do the leak-down test.
> <http://members.cox.net/wilsond/Fixes/diagnostics.html#fuelrail>
>
> It's not described there yet, but basically after checking to see that
> the pressure is correct you turn off the engine and check to see that
> the gauge doen't fall more than about 20psi or within 30min. If it drops
> like a rock you have a problem. Either the backflow valve in the
> pump is shot or the fuel pressure regulator is. Further tests would then
> be needed to figure out which one.
>
> > Thanks for all your help and access to a great site.
>
> NP, and thanks. :)
>
> > (side note, I picked text only now. Is it better? Sorry)
>
> I don't mind html that much, but it's hard on some newsreaders
> and most newgroups frown on it.

Doug, there is a rationale to flooring the pedal in cold weather AFTER
you screw up the first start. The gas that floods the cylinders never
evaporates and it stays flooded unless you open the hole up enough to
get some air thru the system. I was messing with mine MJ last winter
and managed to stall it just after it started. Well, that really
smart computer in old Rennix system seems to figure that if the engine
died while it was trying to keep it running that it needs a bunch of
throttle/bypass air/fuel when it restarts - PITA! Anyway, it will
flood it but good and at -5 or so it takes a good battery and patience
to finally flush the @#$% thing out so that it runs. Starts one
cylinder at a time: chug... chug chug... chug chug chug... etc. until
it finally gets going. The first winter I was at the AF Academy I was
instructing in the T-41 (Cessna 182) and if we flooded those suckers
we either pulled the plugs and dried them of figured that bird was
parked til the next thaw. The smart thing is to follow the book and
don't touch the gas when starting but if it floods down you sure
better consider it on the re-start.


--
Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: 93 Grand Cherokee-Won't Start in Cold
 

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 05:14:26 UTC "DougW" <post.replies@invalid.address>
wrote:

> D did pass the time by typing:
> > Doug,
> > Lot of great info and I really like your style on your Web site. I want a
> > supercharger now!
>
> With as many miles as you have on that I6 you would be better off rebuilding
> and stroking it out to 4.7. It would be cheaper and you wouldn't have to
> run higher octane fuel.
>
> > Going to check the distributer in the morning. If you missed it, I finally
> > got started up. I think through a combination of pumping the gas and holding
> > it to the floor.
>
> That's odd because pumping on a fuel injected vehicle doesn't do anything
> in particular besides confuse the ECU. Pumping is an old carb trick.
>
> > Started really rough but then almost immediately settled
> > down to smooth. Drove it, parked it, started it, did errands and honey-do's
> > and it had no problem.
>
> That sounds like air lock or leakdown. (see below)
>
> Water in the fuel can freeze in the hoses and block the injector rail.
> But if you have that much water in the system it's going to run like hell.
>
> > I'll check fuel pressure. I have a couple R-12 gauges around here somewhere.
> > We'll see what happens in the morning.
> > Would the ESD relay behave this way as it's failing? You know, what with
> > cold weather starting problem I mean.
>
> I'm not tending toward that anymore after what you said, but the ASD relay
> is what kills your engine and fuel pump in the event of an accident or runnaway
> motor (ECU dies), Sometimes it can fail and cause no-start or other problems.
>
> Do the leak-down test.
> <http://members.cox.net/wilsond/Fixes/diagnostics.html#fuelrail>
>
> It's not described there yet, but basically after checking to see that
> the pressure is correct you turn off the engine and check to see that
> the gauge doen't fall more than about 20psi or within 30min. If it drops
> like a rock you have a problem. Either the backflow valve in the
> pump is shot or the fuel pressure regulator is. Further tests would then
> be needed to figure out which one.
>
> > Thanks for all your help and access to a great site.
>
> NP, and thanks. :)
>
> > (side note, I picked text only now. Is it better? Sorry)
>
> I don't mind html that much, but it's hard on some newsreaders
> and most newgroups frown on it.

Doug, there is a rationale to flooring the pedal in cold weather AFTER
you screw up the first start. The gas that floods the cylinders never
evaporates and it stays flooded unless you open the hole up enough to
get some air thru the system. I was messing with mine MJ last winter
and managed to stall it just after it started. Well, that really
smart computer in old Rennix system seems to figure that if the engine
died while it was trying to keep it running that it needs a bunch of
throttle/bypass air/fuel when it restarts - PITA! Anyway, it will
flood it but good and at -5 or so it takes a good battery and patience
to finally flush the @#$% thing out so that it runs. Starts one
cylinder at a time: chug... chug chug... chug chug chug... etc. until
it finally gets going. The first winter I was at the AF Academy I was
instructing in the T-41 (Cessna 182) and if we flooded those suckers
we either pulled the plugs and dried them of figured that bird was
parked til the next thaw. The smart thing is to follow the book and
don't touch the gas when starting but if it floods down you sure
better consider it on the re-start.


--
Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

Re: 93 Grand Cherokee-Won't Start in Cold
 

Will Honea did pass the time by typing:

> Doug, there is a rationale to flooring the pedal in cold weather AFTER
> you screw up the first start. The gas that floods the cylinders never
> evaporates and it stays flooded unless you open the hole up enough to
> get some air thru the system. I was messing with mine MJ last winter
> and managed to stall it just after it started. Well, that really
> smart computer in old Rennix system seems to figure that if the engine
> died while it was trying to keep it running that it needs a bunch of
> throttle/bypass air/fuel when it restarts - PITA! Anyway, it will
> flood it but good and at -5 or so it takes a good battery and patience
> to finally flush the @#$% thing out so that it runs. Starts one
> cylinder at a time: chug... chug chug... chug chug chug... etc. until
> it finally gets going. The first winter I was at the AF Academy I was
> instructing in the T-41 (Cessna 182) and if we flooded those suckers
> we either pulled the plugs and dried them of figured that bird was
> parked til the next thaw. The smart thing is to follow the book and
> don't touch the gas when starting but if it floods down you sure
> better consider it on the re-start.

Don't know if the ZJ reacts the same way as a Mercury does. If you floor
the pedal in the Mercury it tells the computer to shut off all fuel. The OP
described "pumping" the pedal as well, I was commenting on that.

You can stop it from flooding by removing the fuel pump relay. ;)

--
DougW

Re: 93 Grand Cherokee-Won't Start in Cold
 

Will Honea did pass the time by typing:

> Doug, there is a rationale to flooring the pedal in cold weather AFTER
> you screw up the first start. The gas that floods the cylinders never
> evaporates and it stays flooded unless you open the hole up enough to
> get some air thru the system. I was messing with mine MJ last winter
> and managed to stall it just after it started. Well, that really
> smart computer in old Rennix system seems to figure that if the engine
> died while it was trying to keep it running that it needs a bunch of
> throttle/bypass air/fuel when it restarts - PITA! Anyway, it will
> flood it but good and at -5 or so it takes a good battery and patience
> to finally flush the @#$% thing out so that it runs. Starts one
> cylinder at a time: chug... chug chug... chug chug chug... etc. until
> it finally gets going. The first winter I was at the AF Academy I was
> instructing in the T-41 (Cessna 182) and if we flooded those suckers
> we either pulled the plugs and dried them of figured that bird was
> parked til the next thaw. The smart thing is to follow the book and
> don't touch the gas when starting but if it floods down you sure
> better consider it on the re-start.

Don't know if the ZJ reacts the same way as a Mercury does. If you floor
the pedal in the Mercury it tells the computer to shut off all fuel. The OP
described "pumping" the pedal as well, I was commenting on that.

You can stop it from flooding by removing the fuel pump relay. ;)

--
DougW

Re: 93 Grand Cherokee-Won't Start in Cold
 

Will Honea did pass the time by typing:

> Doug, there is a rationale to flooring the pedal in cold weather AFTER
> you screw up the first start. The gas that floods the cylinders never
> evaporates and it stays flooded unless you open the hole up enough to
> get some air thru the system. I was messing with mine MJ last winter
> and managed to stall it just after it started. Well, that really
> smart computer in old Rennix system seems to figure that if the engine
> died while it was trying to keep it running that it needs a bunch of
> throttle/bypass air/fuel when it restarts - PITA! Anyway, it will
> flood it but good and at -5 or so it takes a good battery and patience
> to finally flush the @#$% thing out so that it runs. Starts one
> cylinder at a time: chug... chug chug... chug chug chug... etc. until
> it finally gets going. The first winter I was at the AF Academy I was
> instructing in the T-41 (Cessna 182) and if we flooded those suckers
> we either pulled the plugs and dried them of figured that bird was
> parked til the next thaw. The smart thing is to follow the book and
> don't touch the gas when starting but if it floods down you sure
> better consider it on the re-start.

Don't know if the ZJ reacts the same way as a Mercury does. If you floor
the pedal in the Mercury it tells the computer to shut off all fuel. The OP
described "pumping" the pedal as well, I was commenting on that.

You can stop it from flooding by removing the fuel pump relay. ;)

--
DougW