Re: '88 YJ 258 ci with carter Hard Warm Start
 

I would normally follow the sequence as you described. I'm familiar
with the working of the pumper jets and the choke. I don't pump the
gas now, because that only contributes to the flooding problem. I've
tried holding the throttle open and not even touching the pedal and
the not-touching thing works better most days. It's hard to pull the
plugs when I'm at work, so I've never been to verify that they are wet
when it is doing this. If I do ever hit the pedal, I have to leave
the thing for an hour or so and come back at it. I've hooked the
battery up on jumper cables to a company vehicle and tried cranking,
cranking, cranking (with suitable cooling intervals, I can't say it
was 20 seconds, but round about that) with the throttle held wide
open. No luck. Then I think maybe I've run it dry and goose the
throttle for a little juice. No luck. Then I disperse the
not-so-helpful onlookers, pull the jumpers off, go back to my office
and wait it out.

If it's the carb, what would be worn out? I'm trying to think what
the path for fuel might be. Maybe the metering jets not seated with
the throttle closed? They're set to spec so that they don't move
until the throttle has moved quite a ways. Any ideas there?


" Stephen Cowell" <scowell@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<Gr5gb.657$wV5.536042641@newssvr11.news.prodi gy.com>...
> <averyislandboy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a188e6f3.0310051753.11385c@posting.google.com ...
> ...
> > Please share you thoughts, or make an offer.
>
> Please describe your starting regimen to us...
> the proper way to start a later-model carbureted
> motor is to pump the gas once fully, then release
> the pedal. This sets the fast-idle cam and puts
> a shot of fuel into the bore. It should catch, then
> run at fast idle until the choke pulloff heats up
> and you blip the throttle.
>
> Pull a spark plug when in failure mode... see if
> it is wet. If it is wet, then you are flooded, and
> you must grind the starter with the throttle pressed
> fully to the floor to purge the excess fuel. Do not
> pump the throttle when flooded... you defeat the
> purpose of grinding the motor. Keep the throttle
> pressed to the floor, but stop grinding every 20
> seconds to allow the starter to cool, for about as
> long. If your carb is leaking it's fuel into the engine,
> you should smell raw gas in the oil on the dipstick.
> Not a good situation for the longevity of your
> motor.
>
> On the subject of grinding, you can ruin a good
> starter by grinding it for too long. Starters are
> not continuous-duty motors, and will give up
> the ghost if ground for too long (experience here).
>
> Consider replacing the carb... they won't be
> making them much longer, and yours may be
> worn out in a way that rebuilding can't help.
> __
> Steve
> .

Re: '88 YJ 258 ci with carter Hard Warm Start
 

I would normally follow the sequence as you described. I'm familiar
with the working of the pumper jets and the choke. I don't pump the
gas now, because that only contributes to the flooding problem. I've
tried holding the throttle open and not even touching the pedal and
the not-touching thing works better most days. It's hard to pull the
plugs when I'm at work, so I've never been to verify that they are wet
when it is doing this. If I do ever hit the pedal, I have to leave
the thing for an hour or so and come back at it. I've hooked the
battery up on jumper cables to a company vehicle and tried cranking,
cranking, cranking (with suitable cooling intervals, I can't say it
was 20 seconds, but round about that) with the throttle held wide
open. No luck. Then I think maybe I've run it dry and goose the
throttle for a little juice. No luck. Then I disperse the
not-so-helpful onlookers, pull the jumpers off, go back to my office
and wait it out.

If it's the carb, what would be worn out? I'm trying to think what
the path for fuel might be. Maybe the metering jets not seated with
the throttle closed? They're set to spec so that they don't move
until the throttle has moved quite a ways. Any ideas there?


" Stephen Cowell" <scowell@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<Gr5gb.657$wV5.536042641@newssvr11.news.prodi gy.com>...
> <averyislandboy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a188e6f3.0310051753.11385c@posting.google.com ...
> ...
> > Please share you thoughts, or make an offer.
>
> Please describe your starting regimen to us...
> the proper way to start a later-model carbureted
> motor is to pump the gas once fully, then release
> the pedal. This sets the fast-idle cam and puts
> a shot of fuel into the bore. It should catch, then
> run at fast idle until the choke pulloff heats up
> and you blip the throttle.
>
> Pull a spark plug when in failure mode... see if
> it is wet. If it is wet, then you are flooded, and
> you must grind the starter with the throttle pressed
> fully to the floor to purge the excess fuel. Do not
> pump the throttle when flooded... you defeat the
> purpose of grinding the motor. Keep the throttle
> pressed to the floor, but stop grinding every 20
> seconds to allow the starter to cool, for about as
> long. If your carb is leaking it's fuel into the engine,
> you should smell raw gas in the oil on the dipstick.
> Not a good situation for the longevity of your
> motor.
>
> On the subject of grinding, you can ruin a good
> starter by grinding it for too long. Starters are
> not continuous-duty motors, and will give up
> the ghost if ground for too long (experience here).
>
> Consider replacing the carb... they won't be
> making them much longer, and yours may be
> worn out in a way that rebuilding can't help.
> __
> Steve
> .

Re: '88 YJ 258 ci with carter Hard Warm Start
 

I would normally follow the sequence as you described. I'm familiar
with the working of the pumper jets and the choke. I don't pump the
gas now, because that only contributes to the flooding problem. I've
tried holding the throttle open and not even touching the pedal and
the not-touching thing works better most days. It's hard to pull the
plugs when I'm at work, so I've never been to verify that they are wet
when it is doing this. If I do ever hit the pedal, I have to leave
the thing for an hour or so and come back at it. I've hooked the
battery up on jumper cables to a company vehicle and tried cranking,
cranking, cranking (with suitable cooling intervals, I can't say it
was 20 seconds, but round about that) with the throttle held wide
open. No luck. Then I think maybe I've run it dry and goose the
throttle for a little juice. No luck. Then I disperse the
not-so-helpful onlookers, pull the jumpers off, go back to my office
and wait it out.

If it's the carb, what would be worn out? I'm trying to think what
the path for fuel might be. Maybe the metering jets not seated with
the throttle closed? They're set to spec so that they don't move
until the throttle has moved quite a ways. Any ideas there?


" Stephen Cowell" <scowell@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<Gr5gb.657$wV5.536042641@newssvr11.news.prodi gy.com>...
> <averyislandboy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a188e6f3.0310051753.11385c@posting.google.com ...
> ...
> > Please share you thoughts, or make an offer.
>
> Please describe your starting regimen to us...
> the proper way to start a later-model carbureted
> motor is to pump the gas once fully, then release
> the pedal. This sets the fast-idle cam and puts
> a shot of fuel into the bore. It should catch, then
> run at fast idle until the choke pulloff heats up
> and you blip the throttle.
>
> Pull a spark plug when in failure mode... see if
> it is wet. If it is wet, then you are flooded, and
> you must grind the starter with the throttle pressed
> fully to the floor to purge the excess fuel. Do not
> pump the throttle when flooded... you defeat the
> purpose of grinding the motor. Keep the throttle
> pressed to the floor, but stop grinding every 20
> seconds to allow the starter to cool, for about as
> long. If your carb is leaking it's fuel into the engine,
> you should smell raw gas in the oil on the dipstick.
> Not a good situation for the longevity of your
> motor.
>
> On the subject of grinding, you can ruin a good
> starter by grinding it for too long. Starters are
> not continuous-duty motors, and will give up
> the ghost if ground for too long (experience here).
>
> Consider replacing the carb... they won't be
> making them much longer, and yours may be
> worn out in a way that rebuilding can't help.
> __
> Steve
> .

Re: '88 YJ 258 ci with carter Hard Warm Start
 

"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message news:<y24gb.11569$832.10197@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...
> <averyislandboy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a188e6f3.0310051753.11385c@posting.google.com ...
> > I've been chasing this problem for many weeks now and have probably
> > replaced 90% the ignition-related components under the hood. The
> > problem manifests itself as a near-impossible start after the Jeep has
> > sat in my work parking lot all day. While I am anxious to leave at
> > the end of a long day, the old Jeep seems to want to stay. Sweet talk
> > and negotiation have also not carried the day with the old bucket of
> > bolts -- so here I am.
> >
> > I've cleaned, rebuilt and adjusted the carb to factory spec 3-4 times
> > now. And I'm not just talking float height. I check all those little
> > freaky measurements they suggest and make sure all linkages are bent
> > to spec. The rotor and distr cap are new. The fuel pump is new. The
> > fuel filter is new. The fuel lines are insulated and held away from
> > the block and exhaust manifold. The plugs are new. The plug wires
> > are new. The ignition coil resistances are to factory spec (though it
> > may be the next thing I replace). The compression is good and the
> > timing is per the spec on my hood underside (and check with the hose
> > plugged and the vacuum switch wire assembly unplugged).
> >
> > Sometimes it goes for days before reappearing (usually right before I
> > have an important meeting across campus I have to be at in 5 minutes).
> > Yes, it's not just at the end of the day, sometimes at 10:30,
> > sometimes at noon.
> >
> > The choke was out of whack, despite having the correct color key. I
> > took it to 2 notches lean and it seems to be closed at the correct
> > times (when it's cold). Nonetheless, I find that I have more luck if
> > I jam a small piece of rubber hose to hold it all the way open before
> > I start it. Faithful readers, please realize that I now whip out the
> > chunk of hose like it's some sort of magical talisman that will summon
> > the spirit of the Jeep back to life. The spell doesn't always work,
> > however, and I get to gaze, confused and forlorn, across the
> > freshly-waxed hood and wonder where it all went so wrong. Is there a
> > special form of Jeep karma that I am failing at. I let it get muddy
> > sometimes, I even intentionally dash through an innocent mudpuddle, I
> > always drive it with the top down on nice days. Sometimes I even take
> > my shirt off too, to share the glory of an exceptional day. But the
> > good times are forgotten so quickly when I'm in my nice work clothes
> > bent under the hood while my co-workers strut over to their mercedes
> > and BMW's and SUV's. I pride myself on being a pretty good mechanic,
> > but this makes me feel like an idiot.
> >
> > I'm sure I'm going to get a few helpful posts suggesting the old
> > siphon effect on the fuel bowl, but I've checked that. Even before I
> > crank the puppy, I take the air cleaner off and goose the throttle
> > only to see the two nicest little streams of petro jet down the throat
> > of my carby. I can do that a number of times before I see any sign of
> > diminished fuel supply. My extended battle with this problem has left
> > me thinking that it's more of an issue of flooding than being lean.
> > The small rubber hose gripped hopefully, desperately, in my hand most
> > days after work backs me up on this. Plus the odor of gas is quite
> > strong during my cranking, cranking, cranking -- oh the dreadful
> > cranking. I am constantly amazed at how good my battery is that it
> > lets me crank that 6-banger so many times. I'm sure my workmates are
> > equally impressed at how many days I can put myself through the
> > torture of it all.
> >
> > A bit more history on it: it started with troubled morning starts,
> > but now is pretty much exclusive to warm-weather starts (sitting in
> > the sun at greater than 75 deg F). I wonder if maybe I fixed the
> > original problem and have been creating a succession of problems with
> > each new attempt at ultimate correction.
> > My current theory is that perhaps the fuel bowl float is a bit too
> > high, allowing the gas in the bowl to slowly leak down the intake
> > throat whilst it is warmed in the sun. There would be residual fuel
> > pressure in the line that would refill the bowl a few times as the
> > float opened and closed the valve, I think. I am going to drop the
> > float an 1/8" or so, but wanted to get some time on the most recent
> > change (new plugs, again) before I changed something else.
> >
> > Please share you thoughts, or make an offer.
> >
> > Bob Versluys
> > Florence, SC
> > '88 Wrangler Sport Soft-top gray/red "Sadie"
>
> Bob, it sure sounds like your fuel tank is holding pressure because of a
> plugged vent or similar problem. You may want to try loosening the filler
> cap a bit when you park. I had a vehicle do the same thing and it ended up
> being a plugged vent line. About the only other thing I can think of would
> be that one of the casting plugs in the carb is leaking fuel. I can't
> remember if this carb has them in a place where they could leak fuel into
> the engine or not because it has been ages since I've had one apart, but it
> is a common problem with the GM Quadrajet carb. the fix for the Q-jet is to
> simply epoxy over the plugs with a fuel resistant epoxy.
>
> Chris

Plugged vent, hmm, interesting idea. That makes some sense, I will
definitely give it a try. The next time the old carby is apart
(prolly next weekend) I'll check it over for leaks. Thanks.

Re: '88 YJ 258 ci with carter Hard Warm Start
 

"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message news:<y24gb.11569$832.10197@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...
> <averyislandboy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a188e6f3.0310051753.11385c@posting.google.com ...
> > I've been chasing this problem for many weeks now and have probably
> > replaced 90% the ignition-related components under the hood. The
> > problem manifests itself as a near-impossible start after the Jeep has
> > sat in my work parking lot all day. While I am anxious to leave at
> > the end of a long day, the old Jeep seems to want to stay. Sweet talk
> > and negotiation have also not carried the day with the old bucket of
> > bolts -- so here I am.
> >
> > I've cleaned, rebuilt and adjusted the carb to factory spec 3-4 times
> > now. And I'm not just talking float height. I check all those little
> > freaky measurements they suggest and make sure all linkages are bent
> > to spec. The rotor and distr cap are new. The fuel pump is new. The
> > fuel filter is new. The fuel lines are insulated and held away from
> > the block and exhaust manifold. The plugs are new. The plug wires
> > are new. The ignition coil resistances are to factory spec (though it
> > may be the next thing I replace). The compression is good and the
> > timing is per the spec on my hood underside (and check with the hose
> > plugged and the vacuum switch wire assembly unplugged).
> >
> > Sometimes it goes for days before reappearing (usually right before I
> > have an important meeting across campus I have to be at in 5 minutes).
> > Yes, it's not just at the end of the day, sometimes at 10:30,
> > sometimes at noon.
> >
> > The choke was out of whack, despite having the correct color key. I
> > took it to 2 notches lean and it seems to be closed at the correct
> > times (when it's cold). Nonetheless, I find that I have more luck if
> > I jam a small piece of rubber hose to hold it all the way open before
> > I start it. Faithful readers, please realize that I now whip out the
> > chunk of hose like it's some sort of magical talisman that will summon
> > the spirit of the Jeep back to life. The spell doesn't always work,
> > however, and I get to gaze, confused and forlorn, across the
> > freshly-waxed hood and wonder where it all went so wrong. Is there a
> > special form of Jeep karma that I am failing at. I let it get muddy
> > sometimes, I even intentionally dash through an innocent mudpuddle, I
> > always drive it with the top down on nice days. Sometimes I even take
> > my shirt off too, to share the glory of an exceptional day. But the
> > good times are forgotten so quickly when I'm in my nice work clothes
> > bent under the hood while my co-workers strut over to their mercedes
> > and BMW's and SUV's. I pride myself on being a pretty good mechanic,
> > but this makes me feel like an idiot.
> >
> > I'm sure I'm going to get a few helpful posts suggesting the old
> > siphon effect on the fuel bowl, but I've checked that. Even before I
> > crank the puppy, I take the air cleaner off and goose the throttle
> > only to see the two nicest little streams of petro jet down the throat
> > of my carby. I can do that a number of times before I see any sign of
> > diminished fuel supply. My extended battle with this problem has left
> > me thinking that it's more of an issue of flooding than being lean.
> > The small rubber hose gripped hopefully, desperately, in my hand most
> > days after work backs me up on this. Plus the odor of gas is quite
> > strong during my cranking, cranking, cranking -- oh the dreadful
> > cranking. I am constantly amazed at how good my battery is that it
> > lets me crank that 6-banger so many times. I'm sure my workmates are
> > equally impressed at how many days I can put myself through the
> > torture of it all.
> >
> > A bit more history on it: it started with troubled morning starts,
> > but now is pretty much exclusive to warm-weather starts (sitting in
> > the sun at greater than 75 deg F). I wonder if maybe I fixed the
> > original problem and have been creating a succession of problems with
> > each new attempt at ultimate correction.
> > My current theory is that perhaps the fuel bowl float is a bit too
> > high, allowing the gas in the bowl to slowly leak down the intake
> > throat whilst it is warmed in the sun. There would be residual fuel
> > pressure in the line that would refill the bowl a few times as the
> > float opened and closed the valve, I think. I am going to drop the
> > float an 1/8" or so, but wanted to get some time on the most recent
> > change (new plugs, again) before I changed something else.
> >
> > Please share you thoughts, or make an offer.
> >
> > Bob Versluys
> > Florence, SC
> > '88 Wrangler Sport Soft-top gray/red "Sadie"
>
> Bob, it sure sounds like your fuel tank is holding pressure because of a
> plugged vent or similar problem. You may want to try loosening the filler
> cap a bit when you park. I had a vehicle do the same thing and it ended up
> being a plugged vent line. About the only other thing I can think of would
> be that one of the casting plugs in the carb is leaking fuel. I can't
> remember if this carb has them in a place where they could leak fuel into
> the engine or not because it has been ages since I've had one apart, but it
> is a common problem with the GM Quadrajet carb. the fix for the Q-jet is to
> simply epoxy over the plugs with a fuel resistant epoxy.
>
> Chris

Plugged vent, hmm, interesting idea. That makes some sense, I will
definitely give it a try. The next time the old carby is apart
(prolly next weekend) I'll check it over for leaks. Thanks.

Re: '88 YJ 258 ci with carter Hard Warm Start
 

"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message news:<y24gb.11569$832.10197@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...
> <averyislandboy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a188e6f3.0310051753.11385c@posting.google.com ...
> > I've been chasing this problem for many weeks now and have probably
> > replaced 90% the ignition-related components under the hood. The
> > problem manifests itself as a near-impossible start after the Jeep has
> > sat in my work parking lot all day. While I am anxious to leave at
> > the end of a long day, the old Jeep seems to want to stay. Sweet talk
> > and negotiation have also not carried the day with the old bucket of
> > bolts -- so here I am.
> >
> > I've cleaned, rebuilt and adjusted the carb to factory spec 3-4 times
> > now. And I'm not just talking float height. I check all those little
> > freaky measurements they suggest and make sure all linkages are bent
> > to spec. The rotor and distr cap are new. The fuel pump is new. The
> > fuel filter is new. The fuel lines are insulated and held away from
> > the block and exhaust manifold. The plugs are new. The plug wires
> > are new. The ignition coil resistances are to factory spec (though it
> > may be the next thing I replace). The compression is good and the
> > timing is per the spec on my hood underside (and check with the hose
> > plugged and the vacuum switch wire assembly unplugged).
> >
> > Sometimes it goes for days before reappearing (usually right before I
> > have an important meeting across campus I have to be at in 5 minutes).
> > Yes, it's not just at the end of the day, sometimes at 10:30,
> > sometimes at noon.
> >
> > The choke was out of whack, despite having the correct color key. I
> > took it to 2 notches lean and it seems to be closed at the correct
> > times (when it's cold). Nonetheless, I find that I have more luck if
> > I jam a small piece of rubber hose to hold it all the way open before
> > I start it. Faithful readers, please realize that I now whip out the
> > chunk of hose like it's some sort of magical talisman that will summon
> > the spirit of the Jeep back to life. The spell doesn't always work,
> > however, and I get to gaze, confused and forlorn, across the
> > freshly-waxed hood and wonder where it all went so wrong. Is there a
> > special form of Jeep karma that I am failing at. I let it get muddy
> > sometimes, I even intentionally dash through an innocent mudpuddle, I
> > always drive it with the top down on nice days. Sometimes I even take
> > my shirt off too, to share the glory of an exceptional day. But the
> > good times are forgotten so quickly when I'm in my nice work clothes
> > bent under the hood while my co-workers strut over to their mercedes
> > and BMW's and SUV's. I pride myself on being a pretty good mechanic,
> > but this makes me feel like an idiot.
> >
> > I'm sure I'm going to get a few helpful posts suggesting the old
> > siphon effect on the fuel bowl, but I've checked that. Even before I
> > crank the puppy, I take the air cleaner off and goose the throttle
> > only to see the two nicest little streams of petro jet down the throat
> > of my carby. I can do that a number of times before I see any sign of
> > diminished fuel supply. My extended battle with this problem has left
> > me thinking that it's more of an issue of flooding than being lean.
> > The small rubber hose gripped hopefully, desperately, in my hand most
> > days after work backs me up on this. Plus the odor of gas is quite
> > strong during my cranking, cranking, cranking -- oh the dreadful
> > cranking. I am constantly amazed at how good my battery is that it
> > lets me crank that 6-banger so many times. I'm sure my workmates are
> > equally impressed at how many days I can put myself through the
> > torture of it all.
> >
> > A bit more history on it: it started with troubled morning starts,
> > but now is pretty much exclusive to warm-weather starts (sitting in
> > the sun at greater than 75 deg F). I wonder if maybe I fixed the
> > original problem and have been creating a succession of problems with
> > each new attempt at ultimate correction.
> > My current theory is that perhaps the fuel bowl float is a bit too
> > high, allowing the gas in the bowl to slowly leak down the intake
> > throat whilst it is warmed in the sun. There would be residual fuel
> > pressure in the line that would refill the bowl a few times as the
> > float opened and closed the valve, I think. I am going to drop the
> > float an 1/8" or so, but wanted to get some time on the most recent
> > change (new plugs, again) before I changed something else.
> >
> > Please share you thoughts, or make an offer.
> >
> > Bob Versluys
> > Florence, SC
> > '88 Wrangler Sport Soft-top gray/red "Sadie"
>
> Bob, it sure sounds like your fuel tank is holding pressure because of a
> plugged vent or similar problem. You may want to try loosening the filler
> cap a bit when you park. I had a vehicle do the same thing and it ended up
> being a plugged vent line. About the only other thing I can think of would
> be that one of the casting plugs in the carb is leaking fuel. I can't
> remember if this carb has them in a place where they could leak fuel into
> the engine or not because it has been ages since I've had one apart, but it
> is a common problem with the GM Quadrajet carb. the fix for the Q-jet is to
> simply epoxy over the plugs with a fuel resistant epoxy.
>
> Chris

Plugged vent, hmm, interesting idea. That makes some sense, I will
definitely give it a try. The next time the old carby is apart
(prolly next weekend) I'll check it over for leaks. Thanks.

Re: '88 YJ 258 ci with carter Hard Warm Start
 

Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3F81672D.DCA34F40@sympatico.ca>...
> You sure sound like you are describing a gas filter that is in upside
> down or the wrong one.
>
> The stock gas filter has two outlets. The center outlet goes to the
> carb and the 'top' outlet goes to the return line. If the return line
> isn't at the top, gas will syphon back to the tank causing a vapor lock
> on the lines. This makes it a real bugger to start after sitting. If
> they are side by side, then it depends on the angle you park at.
>
> The filter is also supposed to be horizontal from end to end.

The problem appeared some months after the fuel filter was replaced.
I'm pretty sure it is hooked up as you describe, though I will verify
the orientation of the return line.


> A pinhole leak in the gas line from the pump to the tank can cause the
> same thing. That is the suction line, so a small leak won't really drip
> out on the ground, but it will let air into it when it sits. A visual
> inspection can find that, look for a small wet stain on the gas line,
> usually close to one of the clamps that holds it to the frame, usually
> at the back one too...
>
I assume that the net result would be that the fuel supply side would
be dry, but I have plenty of fuel in line to the carb. I'm afraid
there's too much actually. I will check, but I have already inspected
the line just as a matter of course (i.e., desparation really. I like
problems that jump out at you, so I look everything over a couple of
times.)

Thanks,

Bob


> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> "averyislandboy@yahoo.com" wrote:
> >
> > I've been chasing this problem for many weeks now and have probably
> > replaced 90% the ignition-related components under the hood. The
> > problem manifests itself as a near-impossible start after the Jeep has
> > sat in my work parking lot all day. While I am anxious to leave at
> > the end of a long day, the old Jeep seems to want to stay. Sweet talk
> > and negotiation have also not carried the day with the old bucket of
> > bolts -- so here I am.
> >
> > I've cleaned, rebuilt and adjusted the carb to factory spec 3-4 times
> > now. And I'm not just talking float height. I check all those little
> > freaky measurements they suggest and make sure all linkages are bent
> > to spec. The rotor and distr cap are new. The fuel pump is new. The
> > fuel filter is new. The fuel lines are insulated and held away from
> > the block and exhaust manifold. The plugs are new. The plug wires
> > are new. The ignition coil resistances are to factory spec (though it
> > may be the next thing I replace). The compression is good and the
> > timing is per the spec on my hood underside (and check with the hose
> > plugged and the vacuum switch wire assembly unplugged).
> >
> > Sometimes it goes for days before reappearing (usually right before I
> > have an important meeting across campus I have to be at in 5 minutes).
> > Yes, it's not just at the end of the day, sometimes at 10:30,
> > sometimes at noon.
> >
> > The choke was out of whack, despite having the correct color key. I
> > took it to 2 notches lean and it seems to be closed at the correct
> > times (when it's cold). Nonetheless, I find that I have more luck if
> > I jam a small piece of rubber hose to hold it all the way open before
> > I start it. Faithful readers, please realize that I now whip out the
> > chunk of hose like it's some sort of magical talisman that will summon
> > the spirit of the Jeep back to life. The spell doesn't always work,
> > however, and I get to gaze, confused and forlorn, across the
> > freshly-waxed hood and wonder where it all went so wrong. Is there a
> > special form of Jeep karma that I am failing at. I let it get muddy
> > sometimes, I even intentionally dash through an innocent mudpuddle, I
> > always drive it with the top down on nice days. Sometimes I even take
> > my shirt off too, to share the glory of an exceptional day. But the
> > good times are forgotten so quickly when I'm in my nice work clothes
> > bent under the hood while my co-workers strut over to their mercedes
> > and BMW's and SUV's. I pride myself on being a pretty good mechanic,
> > but this makes me feel like an idiot.
> >
> > I'm sure I'm going to get a few helpful posts suggesting the old
> > siphon effect on the fuel bowl, but I've checked that. Even before I
> > crank the puppy, I take the air cleaner off and goose the throttle
> > only to see the two nicest little streams of petro jet down the throat
> > of my carby. I can do that a number of times before I see any sign of
> > diminished fuel supply. My extended battle with this problem has left
> > me thinking that it's more of an issue of flooding than being lean.
> > The small rubber hose gripped hopefully, desperately, in my hand most
> > days after work backs me up on this. Plus the odor of gas is quite
> > strong during my cranking, cranking, cranking -- oh the dreadful
> > cranking. I am constantly amazed at how good my battery is that it
> > lets me crank that 6-banger so many times. I'm sure my workmates are
> > equally impressed at how many days I can put myself through the
> > torture of it all.
> >
> > A bit more history on it: it started with troubled morning starts,
> > but now is pretty much exclusive to warm-weather starts (sitting in
> > the sun at greater than 75 deg F). I wonder if maybe I fixed the
> > original problem and have been creating a succession of problems with
> > each new attempt at ultimate correction.
> > My current theory is that perhaps the fuel bowl float is a bit too
> > high, allowing the gas in the bowl to slowly leak down the intake
> > throat whilst it is warmed in the sun. There would be residual fuel
> > pressure in the line that would refill the bowl a few times as the
> > float opened and closed the valve, I think. I am going to drop the
> > float an 1/8" or so, but wanted to get some time on the most recent
> > change (new plugs, again) before I changed something else.
> >
> > Please share you thoughts, or make an offer.
> >
> > Bob Versluys
> > Florence, SC
> > '88 Wrangler Sport Soft-top gray/red "Sadie"

Re: '88 YJ 258 ci with carter Hard Warm Start
 

Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3F81672D.DCA34F40@sympatico.ca>...
> You sure sound like you are describing a gas filter that is in upside
> down or the wrong one.
>
> The stock gas filter has two outlets. The center outlet goes to the
> carb and the 'top' outlet goes to the return line. If the return line
> isn't at the top, gas will syphon back to the tank causing a vapor lock
> on the lines. This makes it a real bugger to start after sitting. If
> they are side by side, then it depends on the angle you park at.
>
> The filter is also supposed to be horizontal from end to end.

The problem appeared some months after the fuel filter was replaced.
I'm pretty sure it is hooked up as you describe, though I will verify
the orientation of the return line.


> A pinhole leak in the gas line from the pump to the tank can cause the
> same thing. That is the suction line, so a small leak won't really drip
> out on the ground, but it will let air into it when it sits. A visual
> inspection can find that, look for a small wet stain on the gas line,
> usually close to one of the clamps that holds it to the frame, usually
> at the back one too...
>
I assume that the net result would be that the fuel supply side would
be dry, but I have plenty of fuel in line to the carb. I'm afraid
there's too much actually. I will check, but I have already inspected
the line just as a matter of course (i.e., desparation really. I like
problems that jump out at you, so I look everything over a couple of
times.)

Thanks,

Bob


> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> "averyislandboy@yahoo.com" wrote:
> >
> > I've been chasing this problem for many weeks now and have probably
> > replaced 90% the ignition-related components under the hood. The
> > problem manifests itself as a near-impossible start after the Jeep has
> > sat in my work parking lot all day. While I am anxious to leave at
> > the end of a long day, the old Jeep seems to want to stay. Sweet talk
> > and negotiation have also not carried the day with the old bucket of
> > bolts -- so here I am.
> >
> > I've cleaned, rebuilt and adjusted the carb to factory spec 3-4 times
> > now. And I'm not just talking float height. I check all those little
> > freaky measurements they suggest and make sure all linkages are bent
> > to spec. The rotor and distr cap are new. The fuel pump is new. The
> > fuel filter is new. The fuel lines are insulated and held away from
> > the block and exhaust manifold. The plugs are new. The plug wires
> > are new. The ignition coil resistances are to factory spec (though it
> > may be the next thing I replace). The compression is good and the
> > timing is per the spec on my hood underside (and check with the hose
> > plugged and the vacuum switch wire assembly unplugged).
> >
> > Sometimes it goes for days before reappearing (usually right before I
> > have an important meeting across campus I have to be at in 5 minutes).
> > Yes, it's not just at the end of the day, sometimes at 10:30,
> > sometimes at noon.
> >
> > The choke was out of whack, despite having the correct color key. I
> > took it to 2 notches lean and it seems to be closed at the correct
> > times (when it's cold). Nonetheless, I find that I have more luck if
> > I jam a small piece of rubber hose to hold it all the way open before
> > I start it. Faithful readers, please realize that I now whip out the
> > chunk of hose like it's some sort of magical talisman that will summon
> > the spirit of the Jeep back to life. The spell doesn't always work,
> > however, and I get to gaze, confused and forlorn, across the
> > freshly-waxed hood and wonder where it all went so wrong. Is there a
> > special form of Jeep karma that I am failing at. I let it get muddy
> > sometimes, I even intentionally dash through an innocent mudpuddle, I
> > always drive it with the top down on nice days. Sometimes I even take
> > my shirt off too, to share the glory of an exceptional day. But the
> > good times are forgotten so quickly when I'm in my nice work clothes
> > bent under the hood while my co-workers strut over to their mercedes
> > and BMW's and SUV's. I pride myself on being a pretty good mechanic,
> > but this makes me feel like an idiot.
> >
> > I'm sure I'm going to get a few helpful posts suggesting the old
> > siphon effect on the fuel bowl, but I've checked that. Even before I
> > crank the puppy, I take the air cleaner off and goose the throttle
> > only to see the two nicest little streams of petro jet down the throat
> > of my carby. I can do that a number of times before I see any sign of
> > diminished fuel supply. My extended battle with this problem has left
> > me thinking that it's more of an issue of flooding than being lean.
> > The small rubber hose gripped hopefully, desperately, in my hand most
> > days after work backs me up on this. Plus the odor of gas is quite
> > strong during my cranking, cranking, cranking -- oh the dreadful
> > cranking. I am constantly amazed at how good my battery is that it
> > lets me crank that 6-banger so many times. I'm sure my workmates are
> > equally impressed at how many days I can put myself through the
> > torture of it all.
> >
> > A bit more history on it: it started with troubled morning starts,
> > but now is pretty much exclusive to warm-weather starts (sitting in
> > the sun at greater than 75 deg F). I wonder if maybe I fixed the
> > original problem and have been creating a succession of problems with
> > each new attempt at ultimate correction.
> > My current theory is that perhaps the fuel bowl float is a bit too
> > high, allowing the gas in the bowl to slowly leak down the intake
> > throat whilst it is warmed in the sun. There would be residual fuel
> > pressure in the line that would refill the bowl a few times as the
> > float opened and closed the valve, I think. I am going to drop the
> > float an 1/8" or so, but wanted to get some time on the most recent
> > change (new plugs, again) before I changed something else.
> >
> > Please share you thoughts, or make an offer.
> >
> > Bob Versluys
> > Florence, SC
> > '88 Wrangler Sport Soft-top gray/red "Sadie"

Re: '88 YJ 258 ci with carter Hard Warm Start
 

Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3F81672D.DCA34F40@sympatico.ca>...
> You sure sound like you are describing a gas filter that is in upside
> down or the wrong one.
>
> The stock gas filter has two outlets. The center outlet goes to the
> carb and the 'top' outlet goes to the return line. If the return line
> isn't at the top, gas will syphon back to the tank causing a vapor lock
> on the lines. This makes it a real bugger to start after sitting. If
> they are side by side, then it depends on the angle you park at.
>
> The filter is also supposed to be horizontal from end to end.

The problem appeared some months after the fuel filter was replaced.
I'm pretty sure it is hooked up as you describe, though I will verify
the orientation of the return line.


> A pinhole leak in the gas line from the pump to the tank can cause the
> same thing. That is the suction line, so a small leak won't really drip
> out on the ground, but it will let air into it when it sits. A visual
> inspection can find that, look for a small wet stain on the gas line,
> usually close to one of the clamps that holds it to the frame, usually
> at the back one too...
>
I assume that the net result would be that the fuel supply side would
be dry, but I have plenty of fuel in line to the carb. I'm afraid
there's too much actually. I will check, but I have already inspected
the line just as a matter of course (i.e., desparation really. I like
problems that jump out at you, so I look everything over a couple of
times.)

Thanks,

Bob


> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> "averyislandboy@yahoo.com" wrote:
> >
> > I've been chasing this problem for many weeks now and have probably
> > replaced 90% the ignition-related components under the hood. The
> > problem manifests itself as a near-impossible start after the Jeep has
> > sat in my work parking lot all day. While I am anxious to leave at
> > the end of a long day, the old Jeep seems to want to stay. Sweet talk
> > and negotiation have also not carried the day with the old bucket of
> > bolts -- so here I am.
> >
> > I've cleaned, rebuilt and adjusted the carb to factory spec 3-4 times
> > now. And I'm not just talking float height. I check all those little
> > freaky measurements they suggest and make sure all linkages are bent
> > to spec. The rotor and distr cap are new. The fuel pump is new. The
> > fuel filter is new. The fuel lines are insulated and held away from
> > the block and exhaust manifold. The plugs are new. The plug wires
> > are new. The ignition coil resistances are to factory spec (though it
> > may be the next thing I replace). The compression is good and the
> > timing is per the spec on my hood underside (and check with the hose
> > plugged and the vacuum switch wire assembly unplugged).
> >
> > Sometimes it goes for days before reappearing (usually right before I
> > have an important meeting across campus I have to be at in 5 minutes).
> > Yes, it's not just at the end of the day, sometimes at 10:30,
> > sometimes at noon.
> >
> > The choke was out of whack, despite having the correct color key. I
> > took it to 2 notches lean and it seems to be closed at the correct
> > times (when it's cold). Nonetheless, I find that I have more luck if
> > I jam a small piece of rubber hose to hold it all the way open before
> > I start it. Faithful readers, please realize that I now whip out the
> > chunk of hose like it's some sort of magical talisman that will summon
> > the spirit of the Jeep back to life. The spell doesn't always work,
> > however, and I get to gaze, confused and forlorn, across the
> > freshly-waxed hood and wonder where it all went so wrong. Is there a
> > special form of Jeep karma that I am failing at. I let it get muddy
> > sometimes, I even intentionally dash through an innocent mudpuddle, I
> > always drive it with the top down on nice days. Sometimes I even take
> > my shirt off too, to share the glory of an exceptional day. But the
> > good times are forgotten so quickly when I'm in my nice work clothes
> > bent under the hood while my co-workers strut over to their mercedes
> > and BMW's and SUV's. I pride myself on being a pretty good mechanic,
> > but this makes me feel like an idiot.
> >
> > I'm sure I'm going to get a few helpful posts suggesting the old
> > siphon effect on the fuel bowl, but I've checked that. Even before I
> > crank the puppy, I take the air cleaner off and goose the throttle
> > only to see the two nicest little streams of petro jet down the throat
> > of my carby. I can do that a number of times before I see any sign of
> > diminished fuel supply. My extended battle with this problem has left
> > me thinking that it's more of an issue of flooding than being lean.
> > The small rubber hose gripped hopefully, desperately, in my hand most
> > days after work backs me up on this. Plus the odor of gas is quite
> > strong during my cranking, cranking, cranking -- oh the dreadful
> > cranking. I am constantly amazed at how good my battery is that it
> > lets me crank that 6-banger so many times. I'm sure my workmates are
> > equally impressed at how many days I can put myself through the
> > torture of it all.
> >
> > A bit more history on it: it started with troubled morning starts,
> > but now is pretty much exclusive to warm-weather starts (sitting in
> > the sun at greater than 75 deg F). I wonder if maybe I fixed the
> > original problem and have been creating a succession of problems with
> > each new attempt at ultimate correction.
> > My current theory is that perhaps the fuel bowl float is a bit too
> > high, allowing the gas in the bowl to slowly leak down the intake
> > throat whilst it is warmed in the sun. There would be residual fuel
> > pressure in the line that would refill the bowl a few times as the
> > float opened and closed the valve, I think. I am going to drop the
> > float an 1/8" or so, but wanted to get some time on the most recent
> > change (new plugs, again) before I changed something else.
> >
> > Please share you thoughts, or make an offer.
> >
> > Bob Versluys
> > Florence, SC
> > '88 Wrangler Sport Soft-top gray/red "Sadie"

Re: '88 YJ 258 ci with carter Hard Warm Start
 

My 87YJ did that for months. I too went hog wild on rebuilding and
adjustments (twice, first by me and then by the dealer who installed a
big vacuum leak for me at no additional charge!) It was clearly getting
too much gas and manually holding the choke open usually guaranteed
success after I've run it a bit or it sat in the warm sun. Went through
more than one starter for that reason.

I checked the choke linkage for proper operation many times but it
wasn't until I removed the choke I noticed resistance in the linkage on
the other side of the carb. Just enough to allow the choke pull off to
not remove the choke during starting. A close inspection of the choke
shaft showed some oxidation on the shaft in it's bushing.

A healthy dose of carb cleaner on the choke shaft and lots of manual
maneuvering to work it in and it was solved. I guess I could have looked
into pulling the shaft and buffing it clean but it was working from an
external spray. It had reappeared now two more times in the past 12
months. I hit it with gumout again then used silicone spay and worked it
feverishly and it's fixed each time.
I'm not held to emissions here so I'm giving the carter the boot along
with the ignition and computer this winter. These carter's need too much
TLC for my liking.

I hope your problem is just as easily fixed with a little gumout!

Cheers!

Perry

87YJ 36X12.5 MT Baja's

averyislandboy@yahoo.com wrote:
> I've been chasing this problem for many weeks now and have probably
> replaced 90% the ignition-related components under the hood. The
> problem manifests itself as a near-impossible start after the Jeep has
> sat in my work parking lot all day. While I am anxious to leave at
> the end of a long day, the old Jeep seems to want to stay. Sweet talk
> and negotiation have also not carried the day with the old bucket of
> bolts -- so here I am.
>
> I've cleaned, rebuilt and adjusted the carb to factory spec 3-4 times
> now. And I'm not just talking float height. I check all those little
> freaky measurements they suggest and make sure all linkages are bent
> to spec. The rotor and distr cap are new. The fuel pump is new. The
> fuel filter is new. The fuel lines are insulated and held away from
> the block and exhaust manifold. The plugs are new. The plug wires
> are new. The ignition coil resistances are to factory spec (though it
> may be the next thing I replace). The compression is good and the
> timing is per the spec on my hood underside (and check with the hose
> plugged and the vacuum switch wire assembly unplugged).
>
> Sometimes it goes for days before reappearing (usually right before I
> have an important meeting across campus I have to be at in 5 minutes).
> Yes, it's not just at the end of the day, sometimes at 10:30,
> sometimes at noon.
>
> The choke was out of whack, despite having the correct color key. I
> took it to 2 notches lean and it seems to be closed at the correct
> times (when it's cold). Nonetheless, I find that I have more luck if
> I jam a small piece of rubber hose to hold it all the way open before
> I start it. Faithful readers, please realize that I now whip out the
> chunk of hose like it's some sort of magical talisman that will summon
> the spirit of the Jeep back to life. The spell doesn't always work,
> however, and I get to gaze, confused and forlorn, across the
> freshly-waxed hood and wonder where it all went so wrong. Is there a
> special form of Jeep karma that I am failing at. I let it get muddy
> sometimes, I even intentionally dash through an innocent mudpuddle, I
> always drive it with the top down on nice days. Sometimes I even take
> my shirt off too, to share the glory of an exceptional day. But the
> good times are forgotten so quickly when I'm in my nice work clothes
> bent under the hood while my co-workers strut over to their mercedes
> and BMW's and SUV's. I pride myself on being a pretty good mechanic,
> but this makes me feel like an idiot.
>
> I'm sure I'm going to get a few helpful posts suggesting the old
> siphon effect on the fuel bowl, but I've checked that. Even before I
> crank the puppy, I take the air cleaner off and goose the throttle
> only to see the two nicest little streams of petro jet down the throat
> of my carby. I can do that a number of times before I see any sign of
> diminished fuel supply. My extended battle with this problem has left
> me thinking that it's more of an issue of flooding than being lean.
> The small rubber hose gripped hopefully, desperately, in my hand most
> days after work backs me up on this. Plus the odor of gas is quite
> strong during my cranking, cranking, cranking -- oh the dreadful
> cranking. I am constantly amazed at how good my battery is that it
> lets me crank that 6-banger so many times. I'm sure my workmates are
> equally impressed at how many days I can put myself through the
> torture of it all.
>
> A bit more history on it: it started with troubled morning starts,
> but now is pretty much exclusive to warm-weather starts (sitting in
> the sun at greater than 75 deg F). I wonder if maybe I fixed the
> original problem and have been creating a succession of problems with
> each new attempt at ultimate correction.
> My current theory is that perhaps the fuel bowl float is a bit too
> high, allowing the gas in the bowl to slowly leak down the intake
> throat whilst it is warmed in the sun. There would be residual fuel
> pressure in the line that would refill the bowl a few times as the
> float opened and closed the valve, I think. I am going to drop the
> float an 1/8" or so, but wanted to get some time on the most recent
> change (new plugs, again) before I changed something else.
>
> Please share you thoughts, or make an offer.
>
> Bob Versluys
> Florence, SC
> '88 Wrangler Sport Soft-top gray/red "Sadie"