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Re: '88 YJ 258 ci with carter Hard Warm Start
Stephen Cowell wrote:
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > news:3F8412D6.9744B29E@sympatico.ca... > > I have a buddy that learned all about those starter remotes the hard > > way. He was turning it over and it started unexpectedly. > > SOP is to pull the coil wire and jumper it to ground... don't > mess with one if you don't know what you're doing. > __ > Steve > > ps sorry about your buddy... He wasn't 'thinking' or expecting it to fire up because it was dead and he wasn't careful! It happened 15 years ago and now he needs the second hip. He still gets teased about it because he is a 'Newfie' from Newfoundland. Most countries have their area jokes and in Canada they are 'Newfie' jokes. I mean, it would take a 'Newfie' to run himself down with his own car, eh... ;-) He did do a good thing though, I now make double sure no one is in front of anything that cranks over for any reason and have seen a couple jump forward.... I also am around a lot of driveway repairs with lots of 'spectators'. Never stand in front of anything when the starter fires! Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's |
Re: '88 YJ 258 ci with carter Hard Warm Start
<averyislandboy@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:a188e6f3.0310081550.6c1b6b01@posting.google.c om... > Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3F83124C.E7063767@sympatico.ca>... > > Jut try tossing a 1/8 cup or a couple tablespoons of gas down the carb > > and see what happens. > > > > If it fires up, you have a hole in the gas line on the suction side of > > the pump or a dead pump that is letting the gas backflow to the tank or > > a torn diaphragm on the pump. > > The pump is brand new last month. > > > > > Does the oil on the dipstick smell like gas? > > nope smells like SAE 30 > > > > > Oh, the choke is an electric timer job. > > > > It will be totally closed after 5 minutes and opens according to how > > long 12 volts has been going to it. Piece of crap actually because it > > doesn't have a clue how hot or cold the engine really is, just how long > > it has had 12 volts. > > I don't think the choke is the prime offender since I tend to wedge it > open while trying to start it. > > > > > Mike > > Well, I actually took the plug wrench with me on a day that it acted > up. Which was totally out of the normal pattern because it was cold > and rainy. It also didn't start right up this morning, which is > atypical. It started a couple of times throughout the day, but when > it came to going home time it would not start. The engine was still > warm from having driven to the office from our pilot plant in the > previous 45 minutes or so. I cranked and cranked. Pumped the gas a > couple of times for giggles and cranked. No start. Aha! I have the > plug wrench, pulled out old number 1 and Voila, the plug, much to my > surprise was not wet. I could catch a faint whiff of petro when I put > it to my nose, but that's it. I don't think that that's classic > textbook flooded car "wet". So much for my theories to date. Not > having a remote starter (my wife wasn't at work with me, and the > cleaning lady had already gone home) I couldn't check if I had spark. > I scratched my head for a while, cranked it once with the plug hanging > over the alternator (not that I could even begin to see it from the > driver's seat. I didn't have a screwdriver to jump my solenoid, just > a 1/2" wrench and my socket driver which seemed like a bad idea on a > rainy day). So I put the plug back in, crank it and doggone it if it > doesn't start. Huh? Thankful (especially to Mike for encouraging me > to verify if it was flooded) and confused, I drive home brainstorming > new theories. > > What about if I had "weak spark"? I have checked the coil resistances > and it's good, but what if my starter and solenoid are getting "worn" > and sucking more juice than they should, that could drop the system > voltage pretty low and without 11-12V, would the coil work right? I'm > thinking about putting my spare battery in the passenger floor and > wiring it directly into the coil to ensure it is seeing 12V. Whacked > idea? Other suggestions? Like I've described, once the thing is > started it runs fine, but when it's running, the alternator is keeping > the coil at a happy 12-13V. OK, I might have a couple ideas here based on all the things I've read in this thread. First off, all of this is based on memory from what I've read, so bear with me if I repeat something you've tried. I remember you saying that when you pumped the accelerator after sitting, that the pump shot was good for a couple shots and then it "went dry". This seems wrong to me. You should get quite a few shots before the float bowl empties out. Definitely more than 2 or 3. This leads me to believe that either the float level is way too low, or possibly the fuel in the bowl is vaporizing from percolation, or both. A carb has more tendency to percolate when the float level is low because in essence the fuel cools the carburetor to some extent. Fuel percolation can also cause both flooded conditions and no fuel conditions, depending on how long the vehicle sits between starts. The fuel can sometimes percolate until the bowl is empty. The percolation can cause the fuel to siphon itself out of the carb through the fuel passages and into the engine. Also, regarding the fuel pump, just because it is new doesn't mean it is working properly. Try checking both volume and pressure. I'm not sure of the volume specs for your pump, but most of them are usually about a pint in 20-30 seconds of cranking. You'll have to check a service manual for your specs. I believe the fuel pressure should be between 4-6 PSI. Like Mike said, also check all of your fuel lines for pinholes. If the pump is sucking air instead of fuel, this can also lead to the percolation condition. The volume tests should reveal a suction problem as well. You may want to check the fuel you've been using. Maybe your gas station got some bad gas, or possibly they have mixed in that reconstituted crap. Some vehicles just flat won't run right on that stuff. As far as the spark being weak, I would say possible but not likely. Most factory coils "amplify" the voltage by a factor of about 1600 or more, which means that even with 8 volts going to the coil, you would have over 12000 volts going to the plugs. While this is not optimum, it will definitely fire a plug enough to start the engine. Remember, a lot of the old point systems had a ballast resistor in the ignition circuit to intentionally cut the voltage back while cranking. Chris |
Re: '88 YJ 258 ci with carter Hard Warm Start
<averyislandboy@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:a188e6f3.0310081550.6c1b6b01@posting.google.c om... > Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3F83124C.E7063767@sympatico.ca>... > > Jut try tossing a 1/8 cup or a couple tablespoons of gas down the carb > > and see what happens. > > > > If it fires up, you have a hole in the gas line on the suction side of > > the pump or a dead pump that is letting the gas backflow to the tank or > > a torn diaphragm on the pump. > > The pump is brand new last month. > > > > > Does the oil on the dipstick smell like gas? > > nope smells like SAE 30 > > > > > Oh, the choke is an electric timer job. > > > > It will be totally closed after 5 minutes and opens according to how > > long 12 volts has been going to it. Piece of crap actually because it > > doesn't have a clue how hot or cold the engine really is, just how long > > it has had 12 volts. > > I don't think the choke is the prime offender since I tend to wedge it > open while trying to start it. > > > > > Mike > > Well, I actually took the plug wrench with me on a day that it acted > up. Which was totally out of the normal pattern because it was cold > and rainy. It also didn't start right up this morning, which is > atypical. It started a couple of times throughout the day, but when > it came to going home time it would not start. The engine was still > warm from having driven to the office from our pilot plant in the > previous 45 minutes or so. I cranked and cranked. Pumped the gas a > couple of times for giggles and cranked. No start. Aha! I have the > plug wrench, pulled out old number 1 and Voila, the plug, much to my > surprise was not wet. I could catch a faint whiff of petro when I put > it to my nose, but that's it. I don't think that that's classic > textbook flooded car "wet". So much for my theories to date. Not > having a remote starter (my wife wasn't at work with me, and the > cleaning lady had already gone home) I couldn't check if I had spark. > I scratched my head for a while, cranked it once with the plug hanging > over the alternator (not that I could even begin to see it from the > driver's seat. I didn't have a screwdriver to jump my solenoid, just > a 1/2" wrench and my socket driver which seemed like a bad idea on a > rainy day). So I put the plug back in, crank it and doggone it if it > doesn't start. Huh? Thankful (especially to Mike for encouraging me > to verify if it was flooded) and confused, I drive home brainstorming > new theories. > > What about if I had "weak spark"? I have checked the coil resistances > and it's good, but what if my starter and solenoid are getting "worn" > and sucking more juice than they should, that could drop the system > voltage pretty low and without 11-12V, would the coil work right? I'm > thinking about putting my spare battery in the passenger floor and > wiring it directly into the coil to ensure it is seeing 12V. Whacked > idea? Other suggestions? Like I've described, once the thing is > started it runs fine, but when it's running, the alternator is keeping > the coil at a happy 12-13V. OK, I might have a couple ideas here based on all the things I've read in this thread. First off, all of this is based on memory from what I've read, so bear with me if I repeat something you've tried. I remember you saying that when you pumped the accelerator after sitting, that the pump shot was good for a couple shots and then it "went dry". This seems wrong to me. You should get quite a few shots before the float bowl empties out. Definitely more than 2 or 3. This leads me to believe that either the float level is way too low, or possibly the fuel in the bowl is vaporizing from percolation, or both. A carb has more tendency to percolate when the float level is low because in essence the fuel cools the carburetor to some extent. Fuel percolation can also cause both flooded conditions and no fuel conditions, depending on how long the vehicle sits between starts. The fuel can sometimes percolate until the bowl is empty. The percolation can cause the fuel to siphon itself out of the carb through the fuel passages and into the engine. Also, regarding the fuel pump, just because it is new doesn't mean it is working properly. Try checking both volume and pressure. I'm not sure of the volume specs for your pump, but most of them are usually about a pint in 20-30 seconds of cranking. You'll have to check a service manual for your specs. I believe the fuel pressure should be between 4-6 PSI. Like Mike said, also check all of your fuel lines for pinholes. If the pump is sucking air instead of fuel, this can also lead to the percolation condition. The volume tests should reveal a suction problem as well. You may want to check the fuel you've been using. Maybe your gas station got some bad gas, or possibly they have mixed in that reconstituted crap. Some vehicles just flat won't run right on that stuff. As far as the spark being weak, I would say possible but not likely. Most factory coils "amplify" the voltage by a factor of about 1600 or more, which means that even with 8 volts going to the coil, you would have over 12000 volts going to the plugs. While this is not optimum, it will definitely fire a plug enough to start the engine. Remember, a lot of the old point systems had a ballast resistor in the ignition circuit to intentionally cut the voltage back while cranking. Chris |
Re: '88 YJ 258 ci with carter Hard Warm Start
<averyislandboy@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:a188e6f3.0310081550.6c1b6b01@posting.google.c om... > Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3F83124C.E7063767@sympatico.ca>... > > Jut try tossing a 1/8 cup or a couple tablespoons of gas down the carb > > and see what happens. > > > > If it fires up, you have a hole in the gas line on the suction side of > > the pump or a dead pump that is letting the gas backflow to the tank or > > a torn diaphragm on the pump. > > The pump is brand new last month. > > > > > Does the oil on the dipstick smell like gas? > > nope smells like SAE 30 > > > > > Oh, the choke is an electric timer job. > > > > It will be totally closed after 5 minutes and opens according to how > > long 12 volts has been going to it. Piece of crap actually because it > > doesn't have a clue how hot or cold the engine really is, just how long > > it has had 12 volts. > > I don't think the choke is the prime offender since I tend to wedge it > open while trying to start it. > > > > > Mike > > Well, I actually took the plug wrench with me on a day that it acted > up. Which was totally out of the normal pattern because it was cold > and rainy. It also didn't start right up this morning, which is > atypical. It started a couple of times throughout the day, but when > it came to going home time it would not start. The engine was still > warm from having driven to the office from our pilot plant in the > previous 45 minutes or so. I cranked and cranked. Pumped the gas a > couple of times for giggles and cranked. No start. Aha! I have the > plug wrench, pulled out old number 1 and Voila, the plug, much to my > surprise was not wet. I could catch a faint whiff of petro when I put > it to my nose, but that's it. I don't think that that's classic > textbook flooded car "wet". So much for my theories to date. Not > having a remote starter (my wife wasn't at work with me, and the > cleaning lady had already gone home) I couldn't check if I had spark. > I scratched my head for a while, cranked it once with the plug hanging > over the alternator (not that I could even begin to see it from the > driver's seat. I didn't have a screwdriver to jump my solenoid, just > a 1/2" wrench and my socket driver which seemed like a bad idea on a > rainy day). So I put the plug back in, crank it and doggone it if it > doesn't start. Huh? Thankful (especially to Mike for encouraging me > to verify if it was flooded) and confused, I drive home brainstorming > new theories. > > What about if I had "weak spark"? I have checked the coil resistances > and it's good, but what if my starter and solenoid are getting "worn" > and sucking more juice than they should, that could drop the system > voltage pretty low and without 11-12V, would the coil work right? I'm > thinking about putting my spare battery in the passenger floor and > wiring it directly into the coil to ensure it is seeing 12V. Whacked > idea? Other suggestions? Like I've described, once the thing is > started it runs fine, but when it's running, the alternator is keeping > the coil at a happy 12-13V. OK, I might have a couple ideas here based on all the things I've read in this thread. First off, all of this is based on memory from what I've read, so bear with me if I repeat something you've tried. I remember you saying that when you pumped the accelerator after sitting, that the pump shot was good for a couple shots and then it "went dry". This seems wrong to me. You should get quite a few shots before the float bowl empties out. Definitely more than 2 or 3. This leads me to believe that either the float level is way too low, or possibly the fuel in the bowl is vaporizing from percolation, or both. A carb has more tendency to percolate when the float level is low because in essence the fuel cools the carburetor to some extent. Fuel percolation can also cause both flooded conditions and no fuel conditions, depending on how long the vehicle sits between starts. The fuel can sometimes percolate until the bowl is empty. The percolation can cause the fuel to siphon itself out of the carb through the fuel passages and into the engine. Also, regarding the fuel pump, just because it is new doesn't mean it is working properly. Try checking both volume and pressure. I'm not sure of the volume specs for your pump, but most of them are usually about a pint in 20-30 seconds of cranking. You'll have to check a service manual for your specs. I believe the fuel pressure should be between 4-6 PSI. Like Mike said, also check all of your fuel lines for pinholes. If the pump is sucking air instead of fuel, this can also lead to the percolation condition. The volume tests should reveal a suction problem as well. You may want to check the fuel you've been using. Maybe your gas station got some bad gas, or possibly they have mixed in that reconstituted crap. Some vehicles just flat won't run right on that stuff. As far as the spark being weak, I would say possible but not likely. Most factory coils "amplify" the voltage by a factor of about 1600 or more, which means that even with 8 volts going to the coil, you would have over 12000 volts going to the plugs. While this is not optimum, it will definitely fire a plug enough to start the engine. Remember, a lot of the old point systems had a ballast resistor in the ignition circuit to intentionally cut the voltage back while cranking. Chris |
Re: '88 YJ 258 ci with carter Hard Warm Start
Just a couple comments.
A vapor or percolation lock will shut down a carb. If there isn't fuel pushing, the couple squirts you can get out of the accelerator pump won't start the engine. They just give a dry spark plug with a slight gas smell. And the ballast resistor is to give it 9 or so volts when running, the solenoid to coil tag gives battery power in a start, which is down below 12 usually with the starter sucking on it. It being still hot and dying is weird, but a shot of gas down the carb will tell all. Likely a rubber hose between the tank and frame or frame and engine has a crack, so sometimes it air locks fast, sometimes slow depending on the angle it stopped at. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's c wrote: > > <averyislandboy@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:a188e6f3.0310081550.6c1b6b01@posting.google.c om... > > Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > news:<3F83124C.E7063767@sympatico.ca>... > > > Jut try tossing a 1/8 cup or a couple tablespoons of gas down the carb > > > and see what happens. > > > > > > If it fires up, you have a hole in the gas line on the suction side of > > > the pump or a dead pump that is letting the gas backflow to the tank or > > > a torn diaphragm on the pump. > > > > The pump is brand new last month. > > > > > > > > Does the oil on the dipstick smell like gas? > > > > nope smells like SAE 30 > > > > > > > > Oh, the choke is an electric timer job. > > > > > > It will be totally closed after 5 minutes and opens according to how > > > long 12 volts has been going to it. Piece of crap actually because it > > > doesn't have a clue how hot or cold the engine really is, just how long > > > it has had 12 volts. > > > > I don't think the choke is the prime offender since I tend to wedge it > > open while trying to start it. > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > Well, I actually took the plug wrench with me on a day that it acted > > up. Which was totally out of the normal pattern because it was cold > > and rainy. It also didn't start right up this morning, which is > > atypical. It started a couple of times throughout the day, but when > > it came to going home time it would not start. The engine was still > > warm from having driven to the office from our pilot plant in the > > previous 45 minutes or so. I cranked and cranked. Pumped the gas a > > couple of times for giggles and cranked. No start. Aha! I have the > > plug wrench, pulled out old number 1 and Voila, the plug, much to my > > surprise was not wet. I could catch a faint whiff of petro when I put > > it to my nose, but that's it. I don't think that that's classic > > textbook flooded car "wet". So much for my theories to date. Not > > having a remote starter (my wife wasn't at work with me, and the > > cleaning lady had already gone home) I couldn't check if I had spark. > > I scratched my head for a while, cranked it once with the plug hanging > > over the alternator (not that I could even begin to see it from the > > driver's seat. I didn't have a screwdriver to jump my solenoid, just > > a 1/2" wrench and my socket driver which seemed like a bad idea on a > > rainy day). So I put the plug back in, crank it and doggone it if it > > doesn't start. Huh? Thankful (especially to Mike for encouraging me > > to verify if it was flooded) and confused, I drive home brainstorming > > new theories. > > > > What about if I had "weak spark"? I have checked the coil resistances > > and it's good, but what if my starter and solenoid are getting "worn" > > and sucking more juice than they should, that could drop the system > > voltage pretty low and without 11-12V, would the coil work right? I'm > > thinking about putting my spare battery in the passenger floor and > > wiring it directly into the coil to ensure it is seeing 12V. Whacked > > idea? Other suggestions? Like I've described, once the thing is > > started it runs fine, but when it's running, the alternator is keeping > > the coil at a happy 12-13V. > > OK, I might have a couple ideas here based on all the things I've read in > this thread. First off, all of this is based on memory from what I've read, > so bear with me if I repeat something you've tried. I remember you saying > that when you pumped the accelerator after sitting, that the pump shot was > good for a couple shots and then it "went dry". This seems wrong to me. You > should get quite a few shots before the float bowl empties out. Definitely > more than 2 or 3. This leads me to believe that either the float level is > way too low, or possibly the fuel in the bowl is vaporizing from > percolation, or both. A carb has more tendency to percolate when the float > level is low because in essence the fuel cools the carburetor to some > extent. Fuel percolation can also cause both flooded conditions and no fuel > conditions, depending on how long the vehicle sits between starts. The fuel > can sometimes percolate until the bowl is empty. The percolation can cause > the fuel to siphon itself out of the carb through the fuel passages and into > the engine. > > Also, regarding the fuel pump, just because it is new doesn't mean it is > working properly. Try checking both volume and pressure. I'm not sure of the > volume specs for your pump, but most of them are usually about a pint in > 20-30 seconds of cranking. You'll have to check a service manual for your > specs. I believe the fuel pressure should be between 4-6 PSI. Like Mike > said, also check all of your fuel lines for pinholes. If the pump is sucking > air instead of fuel, this can also lead to the percolation condition. The > volume tests should reveal a suction problem as well. > > You may want to check the fuel you've been using. Maybe your gas station got > some bad gas, or possibly they have mixed in that reconstituted crap. Some > vehicles just flat won't run right on that stuff. > > As far as the spark being weak, I would say possible but not likely. Most > factory coils "amplify" the voltage by a factor of about 1600 or more, which > means that even with 8 volts going to the coil, you would have over 12000 > volts going to the plugs. While this is not optimum, it will definitely fire > a plug enough to start the engine. Remember, a lot of the old point systems > had a ballast resistor in the ignition circuit to intentionally cut the > voltage back while cranking. > > Chris |
Re: '88 YJ 258 ci with carter Hard Warm Start
Just a couple comments.
A vapor or percolation lock will shut down a carb. If there isn't fuel pushing, the couple squirts you can get out of the accelerator pump won't start the engine. They just give a dry spark plug with a slight gas smell. And the ballast resistor is to give it 9 or so volts when running, the solenoid to coil tag gives battery power in a start, which is down below 12 usually with the starter sucking on it. It being still hot and dying is weird, but a shot of gas down the carb will tell all. Likely a rubber hose between the tank and frame or frame and engine has a crack, so sometimes it air locks fast, sometimes slow depending on the angle it stopped at. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's c wrote: > > <averyislandboy@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:a188e6f3.0310081550.6c1b6b01@posting.google.c om... > > Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > news:<3F83124C.E7063767@sympatico.ca>... > > > Jut try tossing a 1/8 cup or a couple tablespoons of gas down the carb > > > and see what happens. > > > > > > If it fires up, you have a hole in the gas line on the suction side of > > > the pump or a dead pump that is letting the gas backflow to the tank or > > > a torn diaphragm on the pump. > > > > The pump is brand new last month. > > > > > > > > Does the oil on the dipstick smell like gas? > > > > nope smells like SAE 30 > > > > > > > > Oh, the choke is an electric timer job. > > > > > > It will be totally closed after 5 minutes and opens according to how > > > long 12 volts has been going to it. Piece of crap actually because it > > > doesn't have a clue how hot or cold the engine really is, just how long > > > it has had 12 volts. > > > > I don't think the choke is the prime offender since I tend to wedge it > > open while trying to start it. > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > Well, I actually took the plug wrench with me on a day that it acted > > up. Which was totally out of the normal pattern because it was cold > > and rainy. It also didn't start right up this morning, which is > > atypical. It started a couple of times throughout the day, but when > > it came to going home time it would not start. The engine was still > > warm from having driven to the office from our pilot plant in the > > previous 45 minutes or so. I cranked and cranked. Pumped the gas a > > couple of times for giggles and cranked. No start. Aha! I have the > > plug wrench, pulled out old number 1 and Voila, the plug, much to my > > surprise was not wet. I could catch a faint whiff of petro when I put > > it to my nose, but that's it. I don't think that that's classic > > textbook flooded car "wet". So much for my theories to date. Not > > having a remote starter (my wife wasn't at work with me, and the > > cleaning lady had already gone home) I couldn't check if I had spark. > > I scratched my head for a while, cranked it once with the plug hanging > > over the alternator (not that I could even begin to see it from the > > driver's seat. I didn't have a screwdriver to jump my solenoid, just > > a 1/2" wrench and my socket driver which seemed like a bad idea on a > > rainy day). So I put the plug back in, crank it and doggone it if it > > doesn't start. Huh? Thankful (especially to Mike for encouraging me > > to verify if it was flooded) and confused, I drive home brainstorming > > new theories. > > > > What about if I had "weak spark"? I have checked the coil resistances > > and it's good, but what if my starter and solenoid are getting "worn" > > and sucking more juice than they should, that could drop the system > > voltage pretty low and without 11-12V, would the coil work right? I'm > > thinking about putting my spare battery in the passenger floor and > > wiring it directly into the coil to ensure it is seeing 12V. Whacked > > idea? Other suggestions? Like I've described, once the thing is > > started it runs fine, but when it's running, the alternator is keeping > > the coil at a happy 12-13V. > > OK, I might have a couple ideas here based on all the things I've read in > this thread. First off, all of this is based on memory from what I've read, > so bear with me if I repeat something you've tried. I remember you saying > that when you pumped the accelerator after sitting, that the pump shot was > good for a couple shots and then it "went dry". This seems wrong to me. You > should get quite a few shots before the float bowl empties out. Definitely > more than 2 or 3. This leads me to believe that either the float level is > way too low, or possibly the fuel in the bowl is vaporizing from > percolation, or both. A carb has more tendency to percolate when the float > level is low because in essence the fuel cools the carburetor to some > extent. Fuel percolation can also cause both flooded conditions and no fuel > conditions, depending on how long the vehicle sits between starts. The fuel > can sometimes percolate until the bowl is empty. The percolation can cause > the fuel to siphon itself out of the carb through the fuel passages and into > the engine. > > Also, regarding the fuel pump, just because it is new doesn't mean it is > working properly. Try checking both volume and pressure. I'm not sure of the > volume specs for your pump, but most of them are usually about a pint in > 20-30 seconds of cranking. You'll have to check a service manual for your > specs. I believe the fuel pressure should be between 4-6 PSI. Like Mike > said, also check all of your fuel lines for pinholes. If the pump is sucking > air instead of fuel, this can also lead to the percolation condition. The > volume tests should reveal a suction problem as well. > > You may want to check the fuel you've been using. Maybe your gas station got > some bad gas, or possibly they have mixed in that reconstituted crap. Some > vehicles just flat won't run right on that stuff. > > As far as the spark being weak, I would say possible but not likely. Most > factory coils "amplify" the voltage by a factor of about 1600 or more, which > means that even with 8 volts going to the coil, you would have over 12000 > volts going to the plugs. While this is not optimum, it will definitely fire > a plug enough to start the engine. Remember, a lot of the old point systems > had a ballast resistor in the ignition circuit to intentionally cut the > voltage back while cranking. > > Chris |
Re: '88 YJ 258 ci with carter Hard Warm Start
Just a couple comments.
A vapor or percolation lock will shut down a carb. If there isn't fuel pushing, the couple squirts you can get out of the accelerator pump won't start the engine. They just give a dry spark plug with a slight gas smell. And the ballast resistor is to give it 9 or so volts when running, the solenoid to coil tag gives battery power in a start, which is down below 12 usually with the starter sucking on it. It being still hot and dying is weird, but a shot of gas down the carb will tell all. Likely a rubber hose between the tank and frame or frame and engine has a crack, so sometimes it air locks fast, sometimes slow depending on the angle it stopped at. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's c wrote: > > <averyislandboy@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:a188e6f3.0310081550.6c1b6b01@posting.google.c om... > > Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > news:<3F83124C.E7063767@sympatico.ca>... > > > Jut try tossing a 1/8 cup or a couple tablespoons of gas down the carb > > > and see what happens. > > > > > > If it fires up, you have a hole in the gas line on the suction side of > > > the pump or a dead pump that is letting the gas backflow to the tank or > > > a torn diaphragm on the pump. > > > > The pump is brand new last month. > > > > > > > > Does the oil on the dipstick smell like gas? > > > > nope smells like SAE 30 > > > > > > > > Oh, the choke is an electric timer job. > > > > > > It will be totally closed after 5 minutes and opens according to how > > > long 12 volts has been going to it. Piece of crap actually because it > > > doesn't have a clue how hot or cold the engine really is, just how long > > > it has had 12 volts. > > > > I don't think the choke is the prime offender since I tend to wedge it > > open while trying to start it. > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > Well, I actually took the plug wrench with me on a day that it acted > > up. Which was totally out of the normal pattern because it was cold > > and rainy. It also didn't start right up this morning, which is > > atypical. It started a couple of times throughout the day, but when > > it came to going home time it would not start. The engine was still > > warm from having driven to the office from our pilot plant in the > > previous 45 minutes or so. I cranked and cranked. Pumped the gas a > > couple of times for giggles and cranked. No start. Aha! I have the > > plug wrench, pulled out old number 1 and Voila, the plug, much to my > > surprise was not wet. I could catch a faint whiff of petro when I put > > it to my nose, but that's it. I don't think that that's classic > > textbook flooded car "wet". So much for my theories to date. Not > > having a remote starter (my wife wasn't at work with me, and the > > cleaning lady had already gone home) I couldn't check if I had spark. > > I scratched my head for a while, cranked it once with the plug hanging > > over the alternator (not that I could even begin to see it from the > > driver's seat. I didn't have a screwdriver to jump my solenoid, just > > a 1/2" wrench and my socket driver which seemed like a bad idea on a > > rainy day). So I put the plug back in, crank it and doggone it if it > > doesn't start. Huh? Thankful (especially to Mike for encouraging me > > to verify if it was flooded) and confused, I drive home brainstorming > > new theories. > > > > What about if I had "weak spark"? I have checked the coil resistances > > and it's good, but what if my starter and solenoid are getting "worn" > > and sucking more juice than they should, that could drop the system > > voltage pretty low and without 11-12V, would the coil work right? I'm > > thinking about putting my spare battery in the passenger floor and > > wiring it directly into the coil to ensure it is seeing 12V. Whacked > > idea? Other suggestions? Like I've described, once the thing is > > started it runs fine, but when it's running, the alternator is keeping > > the coil at a happy 12-13V. > > OK, I might have a couple ideas here based on all the things I've read in > this thread. First off, all of this is based on memory from what I've read, > so bear with me if I repeat something you've tried. I remember you saying > that when you pumped the accelerator after sitting, that the pump shot was > good for a couple shots and then it "went dry". This seems wrong to me. You > should get quite a few shots before the float bowl empties out. Definitely > more than 2 or 3. This leads me to believe that either the float level is > way too low, or possibly the fuel in the bowl is vaporizing from > percolation, or both. A carb has more tendency to percolate when the float > level is low because in essence the fuel cools the carburetor to some > extent. Fuel percolation can also cause both flooded conditions and no fuel > conditions, depending on how long the vehicle sits between starts. The fuel > can sometimes percolate until the bowl is empty. The percolation can cause > the fuel to siphon itself out of the carb through the fuel passages and into > the engine. > > Also, regarding the fuel pump, just because it is new doesn't mean it is > working properly. Try checking both volume and pressure. I'm not sure of the > volume specs for your pump, but most of them are usually about a pint in > 20-30 seconds of cranking. You'll have to check a service manual for your > specs. I believe the fuel pressure should be between 4-6 PSI. Like Mike > said, also check all of your fuel lines for pinholes. If the pump is sucking > air instead of fuel, this can also lead to the percolation condition. The > volume tests should reveal a suction problem as well. > > You may want to check the fuel you've been using. Maybe your gas station got > some bad gas, or possibly they have mixed in that reconstituted crap. Some > vehicles just flat won't run right on that stuff. > > As far as the spark being weak, I would say possible but not likely. Most > factory coils "amplify" the voltage by a factor of about 1600 or more, which > means that even with 8 volts going to the coil, you would have over 12000 > volts going to the plugs. While this is not optimum, it will definitely fire > a plug enough to start the engine. Remember, a lot of the old point systems > had a ballast resistor in the ignition circuit to intentionally cut the > voltage back while cranking. > > Chris |
Re: '88 YJ 258 ci with carter Hard Warm Start
More than likely you are right Mike. I am just trying to give him other
possibilities to check on. I really believe it is a fuel issue one way or another. Chris "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:3F84C160.BEFBACD6@sympatico.ca... > Just a couple comments. > > A vapor or percolation lock will shut down a carb. If there isn't fuel > pushing, the couple squirts you can get out of the accelerator pump > won't start the engine. They just give a dry spark plug with a slight > gas smell. > > And the ballast resistor is to give it 9 or so volts when running, the > solenoid to coil tag gives battery power in a start, which is down below > 12 usually with the starter sucking on it. > > It being still hot and dying is weird, but a shot of gas down the carb > will tell all. Likely a rubber hose between the tank and frame or frame > and engine has a crack, so sometimes it air locks fast, sometimes slow > depending on the angle it stopped at. > > Mike > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > > c wrote: > > > > <averyislandboy@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:a188e6f3.0310081550.6c1b6b01@posting.google.c om... > > > Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > > news:<3F83124C.E7063767@sympatico.ca>... > > > > Jut try tossing a 1/8 cup or a couple tablespoons of gas down the carb > > > > and see what happens. > > > > > > > > If it fires up, you have a hole in the gas line on the suction side of > > > > the pump or a dead pump that is letting the gas backflow to the tank or > > > > a torn diaphragm on the pump. > > > > > > The pump is brand new last month. > > > > > > > > > > > Does the oil on the dipstick smell like gas? > > > > > > nope smells like SAE 30 > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, the choke is an electric timer job. > > > > > > > > It will be totally closed after 5 minutes and opens according to how > > > > long 12 volts has been going to it. Piece of crap actually because it > > > > doesn't have a clue how hot or cold the engine really is, just how long > > > > it has had 12 volts. > > > > > > I don't think the choke is the prime offender since I tend to wedge it > > > open while trying to start it. > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > Well, I actually took the plug wrench with me on a day that it acted > > > up. Which was totally out of the normal pattern because it was cold > > > and rainy. It also didn't start right up this morning, which is > > > atypical. It started a couple of times throughout the day, but when > > > it came to going home time it would not start. The engine was still > > > warm from having driven to the office from our pilot plant in the > > > previous 45 minutes or so. I cranked and cranked. Pumped the gas a > > > couple of times for giggles and cranked. No start. Aha! I have the > > > plug wrench, pulled out old number 1 and Voila, the plug, much to my > > > surprise was not wet. I could catch a faint whiff of petro when I put > > > it to my nose, but that's it. I don't think that that's classic > > > textbook flooded car "wet". So much for my theories to date. Not > > > having a remote starter (my wife wasn't at work with me, and the > > > cleaning lady had already gone home) I couldn't check if I had spark. > > > I scratched my head for a while, cranked it once with the plug hanging > > > over the alternator (not that I could even begin to see it from the > > > driver's seat. I didn't have a screwdriver to jump my solenoid, just > > > a 1/2" wrench and my socket driver which seemed like a bad idea on a > > > rainy day). So I put the plug back in, crank it and doggone it if it > > > doesn't start. Huh? Thankful (especially to Mike for encouraging me > > > to verify if it was flooded) and confused, I drive home brainstorming > > > new theories. > > > > > > What about if I had "weak spark"? I have checked the coil resistances > > > and it's good, but what if my starter and solenoid are getting "worn" > > > and sucking more juice than they should, that could drop the system > > > voltage pretty low and without 11-12V, would the coil work right? I'm > > > thinking about putting my spare battery in the passenger floor and > > > wiring it directly into the coil to ensure it is seeing 12V. Whacked > > > idea? Other suggestions? Like I've described, once the thing is > > > started it runs fine, but when it's running, the alternator is keeping > > > the coil at a happy 12-13V. > > > > OK, I might have a couple ideas here based on all the things I've read in > > this thread. First off, all of this is based on memory from what I've read, > > so bear with me if I repeat something you've tried. I remember you saying > > that when you pumped the accelerator after sitting, that the pump shot was > > good for a couple shots and then it "went dry". This seems wrong to me. You > > should get quite a few shots before the float bowl empties out. Definitely > > more than 2 or 3. This leads me to believe that either the float level is > > way too low, or possibly the fuel in the bowl is vaporizing from > > percolation, or both. A carb has more tendency to percolate when the float > > level is low because in essence the fuel cools the carburetor to some > > extent. Fuel percolation can also cause both flooded conditions and no fuel > > conditions, depending on how long the vehicle sits between starts. The fuel > > can sometimes percolate until the bowl is empty. The percolation can cause > > the fuel to siphon itself out of the carb through the fuel passages and into > > the engine. > > > > Also, regarding the fuel pump, just because it is new doesn't mean it is > > working properly. Try checking both volume and pressure. I'm not sure of the > > volume specs for your pump, but most of them are usually about a pint in > > 20-30 seconds of cranking. You'll have to check a service manual for your > > specs. I believe the fuel pressure should be between 4-6 PSI. Like Mike > > said, also check all of your fuel lines for pinholes. If the pump is sucking > > air instead of fuel, this can also lead to the percolation condition. The > > volume tests should reveal a suction problem as well. > > > > You may want to check the fuel you've been using. Maybe your gas station got > > some bad gas, or possibly they have mixed in that reconstituted crap. Some > > vehicles just flat won't run right on that stuff. > > > > As far as the spark being weak, I would say possible but not likely. Most > > factory coils "amplify" the voltage by a factor of about 1600 or more, which > > means that even with 8 volts going to the coil, you would have over 12000 > > volts going to the plugs. While this is not optimum, it will definitely fire > > a plug enough to start the engine. Remember, a lot of the old point systems > > had a ballast resistor in the ignition circuit to intentionally cut the > > voltage back while cranking. > > > > Chris |
Re: '88 YJ 258 ci with carter Hard Warm Start
More than likely you are right Mike. I am just trying to give him other
possibilities to check on. I really believe it is a fuel issue one way or another. Chris "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:3F84C160.BEFBACD6@sympatico.ca... > Just a couple comments. > > A vapor or percolation lock will shut down a carb. If there isn't fuel > pushing, the couple squirts you can get out of the accelerator pump > won't start the engine. They just give a dry spark plug with a slight > gas smell. > > And the ballast resistor is to give it 9 or so volts when running, the > solenoid to coil tag gives battery power in a start, which is down below > 12 usually with the starter sucking on it. > > It being still hot and dying is weird, but a shot of gas down the carb > will tell all. Likely a rubber hose between the tank and frame or frame > and engine has a crack, so sometimes it air locks fast, sometimes slow > depending on the angle it stopped at. > > Mike > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > > c wrote: > > > > <averyislandboy@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:a188e6f3.0310081550.6c1b6b01@posting.google.c om... > > > Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > > news:<3F83124C.E7063767@sympatico.ca>... > > > > Jut try tossing a 1/8 cup or a couple tablespoons of gas down the carb > > > > and see what happens. > > > > > > > > If it fires up, you have a hole in the gas line on the suction side of > > > > the pump or a dead pump that is letting the gas backflow to the tank or > > > > a torn diaphragm on the pump. > > > > > > The pump is brand new last month. > > > > > > > > > > > Does the oil on the dipstick smell like gas? > > > > > > nope smells like SAE 30 > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, the choke is an electric timer job. > > > > > > > > It will be totally closed after 5 minutes and opens according to how > > > > long 12 volts has been going to it. Piece of crap actually because it > > > > doesn't have a clue how hot or cold the engine really is, just how long > > > > it has had 12 volts. > > > > > > I don't think the choke is the prime offender since I tend to wedge it > > > open while trying to start it. > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > Well, I actually took the plug wrench with me on a day that it acted > > > up. Which was totally out of the normal pattern because it was cold > > > and rainy. It also didn't start right up this morning, which is > > > atypical. It started a couple of times throughout the day, but when > > > it came to going home time it would not start. The engine was still > > > warm from having driven to the office from our pilot plant in the > > > previous 45 minutes or so. I cranked and cranked. Pumped the gas a > > > couple of times for giggles and cranked. No start. Aha! I have the > > > plug wrench, pulled out old number 1 and Voila, the plug, much to my > > > surprise was not wet. I could catch a faint whiff of petro when I put > > > it to my nose, but that's it. I don't think that that's classic > > > textbook flooded car "wet". So much for my theories to date. Not > > > having a remote starter (my wife wasn't at work with me, and the > > > cleaning lady had already gone home) I couldn't check if I had spark. > > > I scratched my head for a while, cranked it once with the plug hanging > > > over the alternator (not that I could even begin to see it from the > > > driver's seat. I didn't have a screwdriver to jump my solenoid, just > > > a 1/2" wrench and my socket driver which seemed like a bad idea on a > > > rainy day). So I put the plug back in, crank it and doggone it if it > > > doesn't start. Huh? Thankful (especially to Mike for encouraging me > > > to verify if it was flooded) and confused, I drive home brainstorming > > > new theories. > > > > > > What about if I had "weak spark"? I have checked the coil resistances > > > and it's good, but what if my starter and solenoid are getting "worn" > > > and sucking more juice than they should, that could drop the system > > > voltage pretty low and without 11-12V, would the coil work right? I'm > > > thinking about putting my spare battery in the passenger floor and > > > wiring it directly into the coil to ensure it is seeing 12V. Whacked > > > idea? Other suggestions? Like I've described, once the thing is > > > started it runs fine, but when it's running, the alternator is keeping > > > the coil at a happy 12-13V. > > > > OK, I might have a couple ideas here based on all the things I've read in > > this thread. First off, all of this is based on memory from what I've read, > > so bear with me if I repeat something you've tried. I remember you saying > > that when you pumped the accelerator after sitting, that the pump shot was > > good for a couple shots and then it "went dry". This seems wrong to me. You > > should get quite a few shots before the float bowl empties out. Definitely > > more than 2 or 3. This leads me to believe that either the float level is > > way too low, or possibly the fuel in the bowl is vaporizing from > > percolation, or both. A carb has more tendency to percolate when the float > > level is low because in essence the fuel cools the carburetor to some > > extent. Fuel percolation can also cause both flooded conditions and no fuel > > conditions, depending on how long the vehicle sits between starts. The fuel > > can sometimes percolate until the bowl is empty. The percolation can cause > > the fuel to siphon itself out of the carb through the fuel passages and into > > the engine. > > > > Also, regarding the fuel pump, just because it is new doesn't mean it is > > working properly. Try checking both volume and pressure. I'm not sure of the > > volume specs for your pump, but most of them are usually about a pint in > > 20-30 seconds of cranking. You'll have to check a service manual for your > > specs. I believe the fuel pressure should be between 4-6 PSI. Like Mike > > said, also check all of your fuel lines for pinholes. If the pump is sucking > > air instead of fuel, this can also lead to the percolation condition. The > > volume tests should reveal a suction problem as well. > > > > You may want to check the fuel you've been using. Maybe your gas station got > > some bad gas, or possibly they have mixed in that reconstituted crap. Some > > vehicles just flat won't run right on that stuff. > > > > As far as the spark being weak, I would say possible but not likely. Most > > factory coils "amplify" the voltage by a factor of about 1600 or more, which > > means that even with 8 volts going to the coil, you would have over 12000 > > volts going to the plugs. While this is not optimum, it will definitely fire > > a plug enough to start the engine. Remember, a lot of the old point systems > > had a ballast resistor in the ignition circuit to intentionally cut the > > voltage back while cranking. > > > > Chris |
Re: '88 YJ 258 ci with carter Hard Warm Start
More than likely you are right Mike. I am just trying to give him other
possibilities to check on. I really believe it is a fuel issue one way or another. Chris "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:3F84C160.BEFBACD6@sympatico.ca... > Just a couple comments. > > A vapor or percolation lock will shut down a carb. If there isn't fuel > pushing, the couple squirts you can get out of the accelerator pump > won't start the engine. They just give a dry spark plug with a slight > gas smell. > > And the ballast resistor is to give it 9 or so volts when running, the > solenoid to coil tag gives battery power in a start, which is down below > 12 usually with the starter sucking on it. > > It being still hot and dying is weird, but a shot of gas down the carb > will tell all. Likely a rubber hose between the tank and frame or frame > and engine has a crack, so sometimes it air locks fast, sometimes slow > depending on the angle it stopped at. > > Mike > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > > c wrote: > > > > <averyislandboy@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:a188e6f3.0310081550.6c1b6b01@posting.google.c om... > > > Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > > news:<3F83124C.E7063767@sympatico.ca>... > > > > Jut try tossing a 1/8 cup or a couple tablespoons of gas down the carb > > > > and see what happens. > > > > > > > > If it fires up, you have a hole in the gas line on the suction side of > > > > the pump or a dead pump that is letting the gas backflow to the tank or > > > > a torn diaphragm on the pump. > > > > > > The pump is brand new last month. > > > > > > > > > > > Does the oil on the dipstick smell like gas? > > > > > > nope smells like SAE 30 > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, the choke is an electric timer job. > > > > > > > > It will be totally closed after 5 minutes and opens according to how > > > > long 12 volts has been going to it. Piece of crap actually because it > > > > doesn't have a clue how hot or cold the engine really is, just how long > > > > it has had 12 volts. > > > > > > I don't think the choke is the prime offender since I tend to wedge it > > > open while trying to start it. > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > Well, I actually took the plug wrench with me on a day that it acted > > > up. Which was totally out of the normal pattern because it was cold > > > and rainy. It also didn't start right up this morning, which is > > > atypical. It started a couple of times throughout the day, but when > > > it came to going home time it would not start. The engine was still > > > warm from having driven to the office from our pilot plant in the > > > previous 45 minutes or so. I cranked and cranked. Pumped the gas a > > > couple of times for giggles and cranked. No start. Aha! I have the > > > plug wrench, pulled out old number 1 and Voila, the plug, much to my > > > surprise was not wet. I could catch a faint whiff of petro when I put > > > it to my nose, but that's it. I don't think that that's classic > > > textbook flooded car "wet". So much for my theories to date. Not > > > having a remote starter (my wife wasn't at work with me, and the > > > cleaning lady had already gone home) I couldn't check if I had spark. > > > I scratched my head for a while, cranked it once with the plug hanging > > > over the alternator (not that I could even begin to see it from the > > > driver's seat. I didn't have a screwdriver to jump my solenoid, just > > > a 1/2" wrench and my socket driver which seemed like a bad idea on a > > > rainy day). So I put the plug back in, crank it and doggone it if it > > > doesn't start. Huh? Thankful (especially to Mike for encouraging me > > > to verify if it was flooded) and confused, I drive home brainstorming > > > new theories. > > > > > > What about if I had "weak spark"? I have checked the coil resistances > > > and it's good, but what if my starter and solenoid are getting "worn" > > > and sucking more juice than they should, that could drop the system > > > voltage pretty low and without 11-12V, would the coil work right? I'm > > > thinking about putting my spare battery in the passenger floor and > > > wiring it directly into the coil to ensure it is seeing 12V. Whacked > > > idea? Other suggestions? Like I've described, once the thing is > > > started it runs fine, but when it's running, the alternator is keeping > > > the coil at a happy 12-13V. > > > > OK, I might have a couple ideas here based on all the things I've read in > > this thread. First off, all of this is based on memory from what I've read, > > so bear with me if I repeat something you've tried. I remember you saying > > that when you pumped the accelerator after sitting, that the pump shot was > > good for a couple shots and then it "went dry". This seems wrong to me. You > > should get quite a few shots before the float bowl empties out. Definitely > > more than 2 or 3. This leads me to believe that either the float level is > > way too low, or possibly the fuel in the bowl is vaporizing from > > percolation, or both. A carb has more tendency to percolate when the float > > level is low because in essence the fuel cools the carburetor to some > > extent. Fuel percolation can also cause both flooded conditions and no fuel > > conditions, depending on how long the vehicle sits between starts. The fuel > > can sometimes percolate until the bowl is empty. The percolation can cause > > the fuel to siphon itself out of the carb through the fuel passages and into > > the engine. > > > > Also, regarding the fuel pump, just because it is new doesn't mean it is > > working properly. Try checking both volume and pressure. I'm not sure of the > > volume specs for your pump, but most of them are usually about a pint in > > 20-30 seconds of cranking. You'll have to check a service manual for your > > specs. I believe the fuel pressure should be between 4-6 PSI. Like Mike > > said, also check all of your fuel lines for pinholes. If the pump is sucking > > air instead of fuel, this can also lead to the percolation condition. The > > volume tests should reveal a suction problem as well. > > > > You may want to check the fuel you've been using. Maybe your gas station got > > some bad gas, or possibly they have mixed in that reconstituted crap. Some > > vehicles just flat won't run right on that stuff. > > > > As far as the spark being weak, I would say possible but not likely. Most > > factory coils "amplify" the voltage by a factor of about 1600 or more, which > > means that even with 8 volts going to the coil, you would have over 12000 > > volts going to the plugs. While this is not optimum, it will definitely fire > > a plug enough to start the engine. Remember, a lot of the old point systems > > had a ballast resistor in the ignition circuit to intentionally cut the > > voltage back while cranking. > > > > Chris |
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