Re: '79 304 Edelbrock carb problems vs Holley carbs?
 

It sounds like their instructions are generic. The reason I say this is that
many of the Performer series manifolds have the ------bore carb opening, but
they have both bolt patterns. Some of the square bore carb flanges will not
seal on this type of manifold, hence the reason for the adapter. If your
carb and manifold are both square flange, then you definitely don't need the
adapter. Glad to hear it is running good for you though.

Chris

"Dave Milne" <whoneeds@toknow.com> wrote in message
news:D6_Mg.16900$r61.754@text.news.blueyonder.co.u k...
> Sounds like a good purchase - will order and wait 3 weeks for it to arrive
> (!).
>
> Got it fitted at the weekend, relatively painlessly. Well, I mean that
> metaphorically actually, as I cut the hell out of my thumb as I was
> putting
> on the valley pan gasket with blood going everywhere and trying to keep it
> off the RTV. So now the nastier bits of the emissions control are
> disconnected (the EGR and the air injection stuff). As it is now not
> really
> an emssions controlled vehicle, I attached it to the non-timed part of the
> carb per the instructions, but that gave me 34 degrees BTDC, so plugged it
> into the timed-port and got a more sensible 10 degrees BTDC. Gas analyser
> was playing up a bit, so I'll do the tuning next weekend, but even on the
> default settings, it is pulling way more strongly than it ever did
> before -
> can't be far off.
>
> Oh, Edelbrock's instructions in the 2131 manifold state that the Performer
> 1405 requires a Square bore to ------ bore adapter. Except that both carb
> and manifold are square bore already, and I hadn't ordered one. Doesn't
> seem to mention the need for it anywhere else - will drop them a line to
> check that it is a mistake on their part. Certainly seems to run fine
> without it.
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland
>
>
> "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
> news:RjPLg.1352$d72.768@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>> Dave, you shouldn't have a problem tuning the Carter/Edelbrock carb, and
>> yes, they are basically the same carb inside. I believe the jets and rods
>> interchange, but I'm not positive on that. I do know that the Edelbrock
> carb
>> is heavily based on the Carter design. If you understand basic carb
>> functioning, and what the rods and jets do for the mixture, it will be a
>> simple process to get it dialed in. If you ruin in to problems, I'm sure
> we
>> can get you going in the right direction. Also, there is a book available
>> called Carter Carb Tuning. Most of it will apply to the Edelbrock as
>> well.
> I
>> had the book at one time, but loaned it out and never got it back. I do
> know
>> that the book is very thorough.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
>> news:FiGLg.14805$r61.8273@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
>> > Thanks. Looks like perhaps I should have ordered the calibration kit in
>> > retrospect. Anyhow, after a 2 week wait, it has arrived so I'll fit at
> the
>> > weekend.
>> >
>> > Quite looking forward to it - my carb experience has been mainly with
>> > multiple SU's (single barrel downdraft) and the odd side draft
>> > Weber -
>> > never done anything on a 4 barrel like Holley or Edelbrock before.
>> >
>> > Dave Milne, Scotland
>> > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
>> > "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
>> > news:1lDLg.1336$d72.134@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>> >> Dave,
>> >>
>> >> When the companies that make carb give them their initial settings
>> >> from
>> > the
>> >> factory, they take all kinds of compromised in to consideration. They
>> > don't
>> >> know if the carb will be used on a large or small displacement engine,
> or
>> > if
>> >> it will be used in hot or cold climate, high altitude, etc. They also
>> > don't
>> >> know what other mods have been done to these engines. The baseline
>> > settings
>> >> they give these carbs will allow them to run on most of the
> applications
>> >> they will see, but they almost always require tuning to get them to be
>> >> optimal. My guess would be that this carb would still be a little
>> >> rich,
>> > but
>> >> it is just a guess. I'm not saying it won't run, it will, and it will
>> >> probably be pretty damn close to right.
>> >>
>> >> The metering rod system that Carter/Edelbrock uses will "adjust" the
>> > mixture
>> >> based on engine vacuum. The rods are controlled by a piston and
>> >> spring,
>> >> similar to many other carbs. When the engine vacuum is low, the
> metering
>> > rod
>> >> spring will start to overtake the vacuum pulling the piston down. The
>> >> rods
>> >> are tapered, and when they move up in the bore they are in, a smaller
>> >> diameter of the rod will still be inside the main jet, effectively
>> >> increasing the total main jet area that fuel can pass thru. If the
> engine
>> >> runs too rich at high vacuum conditions, but is ok at low vacuum or
> wide
>> >> open throttle, then you simply change the metering rod to on the has a
>> >> larger diameter on the part of the rod that is in the jet at high
> vacuum
>> >> conditions. It really is a simple process, and normally will only
> require
>> > 1
>> >> or 2 sets of rods to get the carb where you need it to be.
>> >>
>> >> Chris
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
>> >> news:OeuLg.14311$r61.1621@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
>> >> > Any idea if the Edelbrock 600cfm 1405 Performer + Edelbrock 2131
>> > manifold
>> >> > will require a metering or jet change on a stock 360 '91 Grand
> Wagoneer
>> > ?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Dave Milne, Scotland
>> >> > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
>> >> > "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
>> >> > news:cliLg.1294$d72.56@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>> >> >> Without knowing what size carb, choke or no choke, and which
> manifold,
>> > it
>> >> > is
>> >> >> hard to tell you what the problem could be. What I can tell you is
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> Edelbrock and Holley carbs are both set up from the factory with a
>> >> >> general
>> >> >> tune. This mean the carb may or may not need to be set up properly
> for
>> >> > your
>> >> >> particular engine. In general, the Edelbrock carbs run too rich
>> >> >> with
>> > the
>> >> >> factory set up. Normally they will require a metering rod change,
> and
>> >> > maybe
>> >> >> a jet change as well. You also don't specify the cam specs.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

Re: '79 304 Edelbrock carb problems vs Holley carbs?
 

It sounds like their instructions are generic. The reason I say this is that
many of the Performer series manifolds have the ------bore carb opening, but
they have both bolt patterns. Some of the square bore carb flanges will not
seal on this type of manifold, hence the reason for the adapter. If your
carb and manifold are both square flange, then you definitely don't need the
adapter. Glad to hear it is running good for you though.

Chris

"Dave Milne" <whoneeds@toknow.com> wrote in message
news:D6_Mg.16900$r61.754@text.news.blueyonder.co.u k...
> Sounds like a good purchase - will order and wait 3 weeks for it to arrive
> (!).
>
> Got it fitted at the weekend, relatively painlessly. Well, I mean that
> metaphorically actually, as I cut the hell out of my thumb as I was
> putting
> on the valley pan gasket with blood going everywhere and trying to keep it
> off the RTV. So now the nastier bits of the emissions control are
> disconnected (the EGR and the air injection stuff). As it is now not
> really
> an emssions controlled vehicle, I attached it to the non-timed part of the
> carb per the instructions, but that gave me 34 degrees BTDC, so plugged it
> into the timed-port and got a more sensible 10 degrees BTDC. Gas analyser
> was playing up a bit, so I'll do the tuning next weekend, but even on the
> default settings, it is pulling way more strongly than it ever did
> before -
> can't be far off.
>
> Oh, Edelbrock's instructions in the 2131 manifold state that the Performer
> 1405 requires a Square bore to ------ bore adapter. Except that both carb
> and manifold are square bore already, and I hadn't ordered one. Doesn't
> seem to mention the need for it anywhere else - will drop them a line to
> check that it is a mistake on their part. Certainly seems to run fine
> without it.
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland
>
>
> "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
> news:RjPLg.1352$d72.768@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>> Dave, you shouldn't have a problem tuning the Carter/Edelbrock carb, and
>> yes, they are basically the same carb inside. I believe the jets and rods
>> interchange, but I'm not positive on that. I do know that the Edelbrock
> carb
>> is heavily based on the Carter design. If you understand basic carb
>> functioning, and what the rods and jets do for the mixture, it will be a
>> simple process to get it dialed in. If you ruin in to problems, I'm sure
> we
>> can get you going in the right direction. Also, there is a book available
>> called Carter Carb Tuning. Most of it will apply to the Edelbrock as
>> well.
> I
>> had the book at one time, but loaned it out and never got it back. I do
> know
>> that the book is very thorough.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
>> news:FiGLg.14805$r61.8273@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
>> > Thanks. Looks like perhaps I should have ordered the calibration kit in
>> > retrospect. Anyhow, after a 2 week wait, it has arrived so I'll fit at
> the
>> > weekend.
>> >
>> > Quite looking forward to it - my carb experience has been mainly with
>> > multiple SU's (single barrel downdraft) and the odd side draft
>> > Weber -
>> > never done anything on a 4 barrel like Holley or Edelbrock before.
>> >
>> > Dave Milne, Scotland
>> > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
>> > "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
>> > news:1lDLg.1336$d72.134@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>> >> Dave,
>> >>
>> >> When the companies that make carb give them their initial settings
>> >> from
>> > the
>> >> factory, they take all kinds of compromised in to consideration. They
>> > don't
>> >> know if the carb will be used on a large or small displacement engine,
> or
>> > if
>> >> it will be used in hot or cold climate, high altitude, etc. They also
>> > don't
>> >> know what other mods have been done to these engines. The baseline
>> > settings
>> >> they give these carbs will allow them to run on most of the
> applications
>> >> they will see, but they almost always require tuning to get them to be
>> >> optimal. My guess would be that this carb would still be a little
>> >> rich,
>> > but
>> >> it is just a guess. I'm not saying it won't run, it will, and it will
>> >> probably be pretty damn close to right.
>> >>
>> >> The metering rod system that Carter/Edelbrock uses will "adjust" the
>> > mixture
>> >> based on engine vacuum. The rods are controlled by a piston and
>> >> spring,
>> >> similar to many other carbs. When the engine vacuum is low, the
> metering
>> > rod
>> >> spring will start to overtake the vacuum pulling the piston down. The
>> >> rods
>> >> are tapered, and when they move up in the bore they are in, a smaller
>> >> diameter of the rod will still be inside the main jet, effectively
>> >> increasing the total main jet area that fuel can pass thru. If the
> engine
>> >> runs too rich at high vacuum conditions, but is ok at low vacuum or
> wide
>> >> open throttle, then you simply change the metering rod to on the has a
>> >> larger diameter on the part of the rod that is in the jet at high
> vacuum
>> >> conditions. It really is a simple process, and normally will only
> require
>> > 1
>> >> or 2 sets of rods to get the carb where you need it to be.
>> >>
>> >> Chris
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
>> >> news:OeuLg.14311$r61.1621@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
>> >> > Any idea if the Edelbrock 600cfm 1405 Performer + Edelbrock 2131
>> > manifold
>> >> > will require a metering or jet change on a stock 360 '91 Grand
> Wagoneer
>> > ?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Dave Milne, Scotland
>> >> > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
>> >> > "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
>> >> > news:cliLg.1294$d72.56@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>> >> >> Without knowing what size carb, choke or no choke, and which
> manifold,
>> > it
>> >> > is
>> >> >> hard to tell you what the problem could be. What I can tell you is
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> Edelbrock and Holley carbs are both set up from the factory with a
>> >> >> general
>> >> >> tune. This mean the carb may or may not need to be set up properly
> for
>> >> > your
>> >> >> particular engine. In general, the Edelbrock carbs run too rich
>> >> >> with
>> > the
>> >> >> factory set up. Normally they will require a metering rod change,
> and
>> >> > maybe
>> >> >> a jet change as well. You also don't specify the cam specs.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

Re: '79 304 Edelbrock carb problems vs Holley carbs?
 

It sounds like their instructions are generic. The reason I say this is that
many of the Performer series manifolds have the ------bore carb opening, but
they have both bolt patterns. Some of the square bore carb flanges will not
seal on this type of manifold, hence the reason for the adapter. If your
carb and manifold are both square flange, then you definitely don't need the
adapter. Glad to hear it is running good for you though.

Chris

"Dave Milne" <whoneeds@toknow.com> wrote in message
news:D6_Mg.16900$r61.754@text.news.blueyonder.co.u k...
> Sounds like a good purchase - will order and wait 3 weeks for it to arrive
> (!).
>
> Got it fitted at the weekend, relatively painlessly. Well, I mean that
> metaphorically actually, as I cut the hell out of my thumb as I was
> putting
> on the valley pan gasket with blood going everywhere and trying to keep it
> off the RTV. So now the nastier bits of the emissions control are
> disconnected (the EGR and the air injection stuff). As it is now not
> really
> an emssions controlled vehicle, I attached it to the non-timed part of the
> carb per the instructions, but that gave me 34 degrees BTDC, so plugged it
> into the timed-port and got a more sensible 10 degrees BTDC. Gas analyser
> was playing up a bit, so I'll do the tuning next weekend, but even on the
> default settings, it is pulling way more strongly than it ever did
> before -
> can't be far off.
>
> Oh, Edelbrock's instructions in the 2131 manifold state that the Performer
> 1405 requires a Square bore to ------ bore adapter. Except that both carb
> and manifold are square bore already, and I hadn't ordered one. Doesn't
> seem to mention the need for it anywhere else - will drop them a line to
> check that it is a mistake on their part. Certainly seems to run fine
> without it.
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland
>
>
> "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
> news:RjPLg.1352$d72.768@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>> Dave, you shouldn't have a problem tuning the Carter/Edelbrock carb, and
>> yes, they are basically the same carb inside. I believe the jets and rods
>> interchange, but I'm not positive on that. I do know that the Edelbrock
> carb
>> is heavily based on the Carter design. If you understand basic carb
>> functioning, and what the rods and jets do for the mixture, it will be a
>> simple process to get it dialed in. If you ruin in to problems, I'm sure
> we
>> can get you going in the right direction. Also, there is a book available
>> called Carter Carb Tuning. Most of it will apply to the Edelbrock as
>> well.
> I
>> had the book at one time, but loaned it out and never got it back. I do
> know
>> that the book is very thorough.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
>> news:FiGLg.14805$r61.8273@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
>> > Thanks. Looks like perhaps I should have ordered the calibration kit in
>> > retrospect. Anyhow, after a 2 week wait, it has arrived so I'll fit at
> the
>> > weekend.
>> >
>> > Quite looking forward to it - my carb experience has been mainly with
>> > multiple SU's (single barrel downdraft) and the odd side draft
>> > Weber -
>> > never done anything on a 4 barrel like Holley or Edelbrock before.
>> >
>> > Dave Milne, Scotland
>> > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
>> > "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
>> > news:1lDLg.1336$d72.134@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>> >> Dave,
>> >>
>> >> When the companies that make carb give them their initial settings
>> >> from
>> > the
>> >> factory, they take all kinds of compromised in to consideration. They
>> > don't
>> >> know if the carb will be used on a large or small displacement engine,
> or
>> > if
>> >> it will be used in hot or cold climate, high altitude, etc. They also
>> > don't
>> >> know what other mods have been done to these engines. The baseline
>> > settings
>> >> they give these carbs will allow them to run on most of the
> applications
>> >> they will see, but they almost always require tuning to get them to be
>> >> optimal. My guess would be that this carb would still be a little
>> >> rich,
>> > but
>> >> it is just a guess. I'm not saying it won't run, it will, and it will
>> >> probably be pretty damn close to right.
>> >>
>> >> The metering rod system that Carter/Edelbrock uses will "adjust" the
>> > mixture
>> >> based on engine vacuum. The rods are controlled by a piston and
>> >> spring,
>> >> similar to many other carbs. When the engine vacuum is low, the
> metering
>> > rod
>> >> spring will start to overtake the vacuum pulling the piston down. The
>> >> rods
>> >> are tapered, and when they move up in the bore they are in, a smaller
>> >> diameter of the rod will still be inside the main jet, effectively
>> >> increasing the total main jet area that fuel can pass thru. If the
> engine
>> >> runs too rich at high vacuum conditions, but is ok at low vacuum or
> wide
>> >> open throttle, then you simply change the metering rod to on the has a
>> >> larger diameter on the part of the rod that is in the jet at high
> vacuum
>> >> conditions. It really is a simple process, and normally will only
> require
>> > 1
>> >> or 2 sets of rods to get the carb where you need it to be.
>> >>
>> >> Chris
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
>> >> news:OeuLg.14311$r61.1621@text.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
>> >> > Any idea if the Edelbrock 600cfm 1405 Performer + Edelbrock 2131
>> > manifold
>> >> > will require a metering or jet change on a stock 360 '91 Grand
> Wagoneer
>> > ?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Dave Milne, Scotland
>> >> > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
>> >> > "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
>> >> > news:cliLg.1294$d72.56@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>> >> >> Without knowing what size carb, choke or no choke, and which
> manifold,
>> > it
>> >> > is
>> >> >> hard to tell you what the problem could be. What I can tell you is
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> Edelbrock and Holley carbs are both set up from the factory with a
>> >> >> general
>> >> >> tune. This mean the carb may or may not need to be set up properly
> for
>> >> > your
>> >> >> particular engine. In general, the Edelbrock carbs run too rich
>> >> >> with
>> > the
>> >> >> factory set up. Normally they will require a metering rod change,
> and
>> >> > maybe
>> >> >> a jet change as well. You also don't specify the cam specs.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

Re: '79 304 Edelbrock carb problems vs Holley carbs?
 

Indeed. This was a tactical fix - my LPG system broke (the guys who
installed it were clearly idiots, and with the partially disconnected
emissions system, the Ford Motorcraft 2bl carb wasn't running right). So, I
went back to basics with a simple choke.

How it is running, I guess the next thing is to look at what headers and
exhaust are available. Might look at changing the camshaft since I'm about
it.

Dave Milne, Scotland
'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ

"Earle Horton" <anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote in message
news:450470cf$0$24309$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.c om...
> Dave,
>
> It would be a shame to install less restrictive intake components, without
> similar changes to the exhaust.
>
> Earle

Re: '79 304 Edelbrock carb problems vs Holley carbs?
 

Indeed. This was a tactical fix - my LPG system broke (the guys who
installed it were clearly idiots, and with the partially disconnected
emissions system, the Ford Motorcraft 2bl carb wasn't running right). So, I
went back to basics with a simple choke.

How it is running, I guess the next thing is to look at what headers and
exhaust are available. Might look at changing the camshaft since I'm about
it.

Dave Milne, Scotland
'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ

"Earle Horton" <anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote in message
news:450470cf$0$24309$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.c om...
> Dave,
>
> It would be a shame to install less restrictive intake components, without
> similar changes to the exhaust.
>
> Earle

Re: '79 304 Edelbrock carb problems vs Holley carbs?
 

Indeed. This was a tactical fix - my LPG system broke (the guys who
installed it were clearly idiots, and with the partially disconnected
emissions system, the Ford Motorcraft 2bl carb wasn't running right). So, I
went back to basics with a simple choke.

How it is running, I guess the next thing is to look at what headers and
exhaust are available. Might look at changing the camshaft since I'm about
it.

Dave Milne, Scotland
'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ

"Earle Horton" <anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote in message
news:450470cf$0$24309$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.c om...
> Dave,
>
> It would be a shame to install less restrictive intake components, without
> similar changes to the exhaust.
>
> Earle

Re: '79 304 Edelbrock carb problems vs Holley carbs?
 

yes, their email technical support confirmed it wasn't necessary. Pretty
impressively fast response actually - couple of hours.

So next weekend, I'll put the gas tester on it. I had a shot at it, but it
was late and the start reading in clean air didn't match the end reading in
clean air, so I discounted the readings I took.

Dave Milne, Scotland
'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:vz2Ng.311$vW4.116@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> It sounds like their instructions are generic. The reason I say this is
that
> many of the Performer series manifolds have the ------bore carb opening,
but
> they have both bolt patterns. Some of the square bore carb flanges will
not
> seal on this type of manifold, hence the reason for the adapter. If your
> carb and manifold are both square flange, then you definitely don't need
the
> adapter. Glad to hear it is running good for you though.
>
> Chris

Re: '79 304 Edelbrock carb problems vs Holley carbs?
 

yes, their email technical support confirmed it wasn't necessary. Pretty
impressively fast response actually - couple of hours.

So next weekend, I'll put the gas tester on it. I had a shot at it, but it
was late and the start reading in clean air didn't match the end reading in
clean air, so I discounted the readings I took.

Dave Milne, Scotland
'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:vz2Ng.311$vW4.116@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> It sounds like their instructions are generic. The reason I say this is
that
> many of the Performer series manifolds have the ------bore carb opening,
but
> they have both bolt patterns. Some of the square bore carb flanges will
not
> seal on this type of manifold, hence the reason for the adapter. If your
> carb and manifold are both square flange, then you definitely don't need
the
> adapter. Glad to hear it is running good for you though.
>
> Chris

Re: '79 304 Edelbrock carb problems vs Holley carbs?
 

yes, their email technical support confirmed it wasn't necessary. Pretty
impressively fast response actually - couple of hours.

So next weekend, I'll put the gas tester on it. I had a shot at it, but it
was late and the start reading in clean air didn't match the end reading in
clean air, so I discounted the readings I took.

Dave Milne, Scotland
'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:vz2Ng.311$vW4.116@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> It sounds like their instructions are generic. The reason I say this is
that
> many of the Performer series manifolds have the ------bore carb opening,
but
> they have both bolt patterns. Some of the square bore carb flanges will
not
> seal on this type of manifold, hence the reason for the adapter. If your
> carb and manifold are both square flange, then you definitely don't need
the
> adapter. Glad to hear it is running good for you though.
>
> Chris