Re: 1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!
 

After swapping to Champions, add a fat ground braid between the body
near the battery and a nice big bolt on the engine. If that doesn't do
it, maybe the brain and or coil is just too weak to spark.


Mike Romain proclaimed:

> When the CPS goes bad, the vehicle usually up and dies. The plug and
> socket for it can and do get dirty though, but again that usually causes
> a stall. There are no shims on it, it just fits in one spot. People do
> try to alter it for modified vehicles, but that isn't normal use.
>
> Mike
>
> Casper wrote:
>
>>>Wow......
>>>
>>>I too would be suspecting the junkyard brain. Maybe a 'new' one would
>>>be in order.
>>
>>Yeah, it is definitly a suspect. I hope to know either later today or
>>in the next couple of days. Since I have access to a newer one (not
>>new tho), I am hoping that will help resolve things if it's needed.
>>
>>
>>>And FYI, I know that some 258 and apparently some 4.0 engines won't run
>>>on bosch plugs. The plugs foul black very quickly and the engine misses
>>>like a bugger. When I switch them to Champion plugs they run fine.
>>
>>I have heard that, but have been using the Bosch for a number of years
>>on several of my vehicles and have yet to see this occur, until just
>>now. I'd be in agreement if it weren't for the fact that the other
>>plug brands are also fouling right now in the Jeep.
>>
>>
>>>I likely mentioned this before, but when you have a missing or broken
>>>ground path, the vehicle can steal grounds through things like gas
>>>cables and radios and shifters and brake pedals. This normally causes
>>>all kinds of seemingly unrelated issues usually computer or sensor
>>>related. One main computer ground tag point is usually a bolt into the
>>>block near the dipstick. There are a mess of black wires there.
>>>Sometimes one gets dropped out when it gets hooked up.
>>>Mike
>>
>>Yep, went over this near the beginning of this saga. Checked them over
>>several times and found nothing. Although, since I know some of the
>>wiring has been replaced due to damage/shorting in the accident, I
>>keep reminding the mechanics that there still may be something they
>>have yet to locate.
>>
>>Another concern mentioned to me was that the CPS (Crank Position
>>Sensor) may have a shim issue and or been damaged. I'm not too
>>familiar with how the vehicle can react with a damamged one, but I am
>>hoping this has also been looked at. I've got one mechanic saying his
>>tests show it's bad and a second mechanic saying it's good. Bear in
>>mind, it's already been replaced once, same time as the PCM.
>>
>>Thanks for the input Mike!
>>
>>`Casper
>>
>>I plan to post what the final outcome is so hopefully no one else will
>>ever have to go thru this and glean some useful information from my
>>problems and saga. :)

Re: 1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!
 

After swapping to Champions, add a fat ground braid between the body
near the battery and a nice big bolt on the engine. If that doesn't do
it, maybe the brain and or coil is just too weak to spark.


Mike Romain proclaimed:

> When the CPS goes bad, the vehicle usually up and dies. The plug and
> socket for it can and do get dirty though, but again that usually causes
> a stall. There are no shims on it, it just fits in one spot. People do
> try to alter it for modified vehicles, but that isn't normal use.
>
> Mike
>
> Casper wrote:
>
>>>Wow......
>>>
>>>I too would be suspecting the junkyard brain. Maybe a 'new' one would
>>>be in order.
>>
>>Yeah, it is definitly a suspect. I hope to know either later today or
>>in the next couple of days. Since I have access to a newer one (not
>>new tho), I am hoping that will help resolve things if it's needed.
>>
>>
>>>And FYI, I know that some 258 and apparently some 4.0 engines won't run
>>>on bosch plugs. The plugs foul black very quickly and the engine misses
>>>like a bugger. When I switch them to Champion plugs they run fine.
>>
>>I have heard that, but have been using the Bosch for a number of years
>>on several of my vehicles and have yet to see this occur, until just
>>now. I'd be in agreement if it weren't for the fact that the other
>>plug brands are also fouling right now in the Jeep.
>>
>>
>>>I likely mentioned this before, but when you have a missing or broken
>>>ground path, the vehicle can steal grounds through things like gas
>>>cables and radios and shifters and brake pedals. This normally causes
>>>all kinds of seemingly unrelated issues usually computer or sensor
>>>related. One main computer ground tag point is usually a bolt into the
>>>block near the dipstick. There are a mess of black wires there.
>>>Sometimes one gets dropped out when it gets hooked up.
>>>Mike
>>
>>Yep, went over this near the beginning of this saga. Checked them over
>>several times and found nothing. Although, since I know some of the
>>wiring has been replaced due to damage/shorting in the accident, I
>>keep reminding the mechanics that there still may be something they
>>have yet to locate.
>>
>>Another concern mentioned to me was that the CPS (Crank Position
>>Sensor) may have a shim issue and or been damaged. I'm not too
>>familiar with how the vehicle can react with a damamged one, but I am
>>hoping this has also been looked at. I've got one mechanic saying his
>>tests show it's bad and a second mechanic saying it's good. Bear in
>>mind, it's already been replaced once, same time as the PCM.
>>
>>Thanks for the input Mike!
>>
>>`Casper
>>
>>I plan to post what the final outcome is so hopefully no one else will
>>ever have to go thru this and glean some useful information from my
>>problems and saga. :)

Re: 1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!
 

After swapping to Champions, add a fat ground braid between the body
near the battery and a nice big bolt on the engine. If that doesn't do
it, maybe the brain and or coil is just too weak to spark.


Mike Romain proclaimed:

> When the CPS goes bad, the vehicle usually up and dies. The plug and
> socket for it can and do get dirty though, but again that usually causes
> a stall. There are no shims on it, it just fits in one spot. People do
> try to alter it for modified vehicles, but that isn't normal use.
>
> Mike
>
> Casper wrote:
>
>>>Wow......
>>>
>>>I too would be suspecting the junkyard brain. Maybe a 'new' one would
>>>be in order.
>>
>>Yeah, it is definitly a suspect. I hope to know either later today or
>>in the next couple of days. Since I have access to a newer one (not
>>new tho), I am hoping that will help resolve things if it's needed.
>>
>>
>>>And FYI, I know that some 258 and apparently some 4.0 engines won't run
>>>on bosch plugs. The plugs foul black very quickly and the engine misses
>>>like a bugger. When I switch them to Champion plugs they run fine.
>>
>>I have heard that, but have been using the Bosch for a number of years
>>on several of my vehicles and have yet to see this occur, until just
>>now. I'd be in agreement if it weren't for the fact that the other
>>plug brands are also fouling right now in the Jeep.
>>
>>
>>>I likely mentioned this before, but when you have a missing or broken
>>>ground path, the vehicle can steal grounds through things like gas
>>>cables and radios and shifters and brake pedals. This normally causes
>>>all kinds of seemingly unrelated issues usually computer or sensor
>>>related. One main computer ground tag point is usually a bolt into the
>>>block near the dipstick. There are a mess of black wires there.
>>>Sometimes one gets dropped out when it gets hooked up.
>>>Mike
>>
>>Yep, went over this near the beginning of this saga. Checked them over
>>several times and found nothing. Although, since I know some of the
>>wiring has been replaced due to damage/shorting in the accident, I
>>keep reminding the mechanics that there still may be something they
>>have yet to locate.
>>
>>Another concern mentioned to me was that the CPS (Crank Position
>>Sensor) may have a shim issue and or been damaged. I'm not too
>>familiar with how the vehicle can react with a damamged one, but I am
>>hoping this has also been looked at. I've got one mechanic saying his
>>tests show it's bad and a second mechanic saying it's good. Bear in
>>mind, it's already been replaced once, same time as the PCM.
>>
>>Thanks for the input Mike!
>>
>>`Casper
>>
>>I plan to post what the final outcome is so hopefully no one else will
>>ever have to go thru this and glean some useful information from my
>>problems and saga. :)

Re: 1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!
 

In message <urhae29o553ol4oqqjedjojic6acqe5uae@4ax.com>, "Casper" wrote:

>First off, thanks to Mike Romain and DougW for thier input and help
>previously. It's been a while, so if you do not remember, that's cool.
>Doug might remember putting up pictures I posted on his website of my
>post-accident '93 GCL (red).
>
>Here is the saga since my last post...
>
>Would you believe I still DO NOT have my jeep back? Yep! It's been
>over 9 months and my jeep is still not back in my drivveway and
>working! Originally I posted in this group about some problems I had
>starting the jeep where the "check engine" light was failing to light.
>This was after the first trip to the body shop where they put on the
>wrong rear hatch and parts!
>
>Everytime the CE light failed, there was no voltage to the fuel pump
>and no start. Everytime the CE light came on, the jeep started. So
>what happend you ask? Well, some months later, along with 4 spark plug
>changes (would you believe the master mechanics said the Bosch plugs
>are cheap and foul easily?), a Crank Position Sensor, a wiring
>harness, a coil and a computer later, it stil isn't running!

Bosch plugs are crap. If you have one of their universal fit, splice in, POS O2
sensors, throw that away too.

Has anyone verified a problem with any of the parts you replaced, or are we
using the shotgun approach?

Has the check engine light problem been resolved? If not, you need to start
there, since it indicates a problem with the PCM grounds, power feeds or the PCM
it's self.


>Right now, the jeep sometimes starts, but hard start. You can smell
>gas when it doesn't start and it appears to be flooded. The spark
>plugs are fouling in just a couple of miles of driving. If it does
>start (and sometimes it will not), it might run ok, or bad right from
>the start. Sometimes it runs ok for a short while, then gets rougher
>and rougher until it stalls out. Occasionally, if it doesn't start
>right off the first key turn, if you quickly press the gas pedal just
>a hair, it will start (hard).
>
>So the dealership it went to so it could be put on the MDS machine
>says it's the CPS and somewhat low fuel pressure, but they don't tell
>me the no longer use the MDS until after the diagnostics. WTF?

First, MDS doesn't even exist anymore. Second, even if it did, it wouldn't do
you any good. You need somebody who knows what he's doing to diagnose it.

>
>The original mechanic (who replaced the CPS and PCM) says he can't
>figure it out, but the plugs foul (cheap Bosch!) and seems flooded.
>
>Now I am not a genius, but my thinking here is if I brough my jeep to
>you and it was running fine, and I got it back running bad or not
>running at all, and not once, but twice and worse each time, does it
>not make sense to look at what you REPLACED???
>
>My thinking here is MAYBE the junk yard PCM you replaced my original
>with is either bad or improperly programed. Maybe for a V8 or
>different year? Or maybe it cannot communicate with a sensor??
>
>So... I gotta know what you all think of this saga. Cause I have to
>tell you, if it's not resolved soon or my vehicle replaced by the
>insurance company (guy who rear-eneded me) soon, I may go postal!
>
>Any HO's on the problem(s)? I miss my jeep!!!!

As I see it, you have 2 choices.

1) Take it to somebody who knows what he's doing.

2) Go postal.

>
>`Casper

Re: 1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!
 

In message <urhae29o553ol4oqqjedjojic6acqe5uae@4ax.com>, "Casper" wrote:

>First off, thanks to Mike Romain and DougW for thier input and help
>previously. It's been a while, so if you do not remember, that's cool.
>Doug might remember putting up pictures I posted on his website of my
>post-accident '93 GCL (red).
>
>Here is the saga since my last post...
>
>Would you believe I still DO NOT have my jeep back? Yep! It's been
>over 9 months and my jeep is still not back in my drivveway and
>working! Originally I posted in this group about some problems I had
>starting the jeep where the "check engine" light was failing to light.
>This was after the first trip to the body shop where they put on the
>wrong rear hatch and parts!
>
>Everytime the CE light failed, there was no voltage to the fuel pump
>and no start. Everytime the CE light came on, the jeep started. So
>what happend you ask? Well, some months later, along with 4 spark plug
>changes (would you believe the master mechanics said the Bosch plugs
>are cheap and foul easily?), a Crank Position Sensor, a wiring
>harness, a coil and a computer later, it stil isn't running!

Bosch plugs are crap. If you have one of their universal fit, splice in, POS O2
sensors, throw that away too.

Has anyone verified a problem with any of the parts you replaced, or are we
using the shotgun approach?

Has the check engine light problem been resolved? If not, you need to start
there, since it indicates a problem with the PCM grounds, power feeds or the PCM
it's self.


>Right now, the jeep sometimes starts, but hard start. You can smell
>gas when it doesn't start and it appears to be flooded. The spark
>plugs are fouling in just a couple of miles of driving. If it does
>start (and sometimes it will not), it might run ok, or bad right from
>the start. Sometimes it runs ok for a short while, then gets rougher
>and rougher until it stalls out. Occasionally, if it doesn't start
>right off the first key turn, if you quickly press the gas pedal just
>a hair, it will start (hard).
>
>So the dealership it went to so it could be put on the MDS machine
>says it's the CPS and somewhat low fuel pressure, but they don't tell
>me the no longer use the MDS until after the diagnostics. WTF?

First, MDS doesn't even exist anymore. Second, even if it did, it wouldn't do
you any good. You need somebody who knows what he's doing to diagnose it.

>
>The original mechanic (who replaced the CPS and PCM) says he can't
>figure it out, but the plugs foul (cheap Bosch!) and seems flooded.
>
>Now I am not a genius, but my thinking here is if I brough my jeep to
>you and it was running fine, and I got it back running bad or not
>running at all, and not once, but twice and worse each time, does it
>not make sense to look at what you REPLACED???
>
>My thinking here is MAYBE the junk yard PCM you replaced my original
>with is either bad or improperly programed. Maybe for a V8 or
>different year? Or maybe it cannot communicate with a sensor??
>
>So... I gotta know what you all think of this saga. Cause I have to
>tell you, if it's not resolved soon or my vehicle replaced by the
>insurance company (guy who rear-eneded me) soon, I may go postal!
>
>Any HO's on the problem(s)? I miss my jeep!!!!

As I see it, you have 2 choices.

1) Take it to somebody who knows what he's doing.

2) Go postal.

>
>`Casper

Re: 1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!
 

In message <urhae29o553ol4oqqjedjojic6acqe5uae@4ax.com>, "Casper" wrote:

>First off, thanks to Mike Romain and DougW for thier input and help
>previously. It's been a while, so if you do not remember, that's cool.
>Doug might remember putting up pictures I posted on his website of my
>post-accident '93 GCL (red).
>
>Here is the saga since my last post...
>
>Would you believe I still DO NOT have my jeep back? Yep! It's been
>over 9 months and my jeep is still not back in my drivveway and
>working! Originally I posted in this group about some problems I had
>starting the jeep where the "check engine" light was failing to light.
>This was after the first trip to the body shop where they put on the
>wrong rear hatch and parts!
>
>Everytime the CE light failed, there was no voltage to the fuel pump
>and no start. Everytime the CE light came on, the jeep started. So
>what happend you ask? Well, some months later, along with 4 spark plug
>changes (would you believe the master mechanics said the Bosch plugs
>are cheap and foul easily?), a Crank Position Sensor, a wiring
>harness, a coil and a computer later, it stil isn't running!

Bosch plugs are crap. If you have one of their universal fit, splice in, POS O2
sensors, throw that away too.

Has anyone verified a problem with any of the parts you replaced, or are we
using the shotgun approach?

Has the check engine light problem been resolved? If not, you need to start
there, since it indicates a problem with the PCM grounds, power feeds or the PCM
it's self.


>Right now, the jeep sometimes starts, but hard start. You can smell
>gas when it doesn't start and it appears to be flooded. The spark
>plugs are fouling in just a couple of miles of driving. If it does
>start (and sometimes it will not), it might run ok, or bad right from
>the start. Sometimes it runs ok for a short while, then gets rougher
>and rougher until it stalls out. Occasionally, if it doesn't start
>right off the first key turn, if you quickly press the gas pedal just
>a hair, it will start (hard).
>
>So the dealership it went to so it could be put on the MDS machine
>says it's the CPS and somewhat low fuel pressure, but they don't tell
>me the no longer use the MDS until after the diagnostics. WTF?

First, MDS doesn't even exist anymore. Second, even if it did, it wouldn't do
you any good. You need somebody who knows what he's doing to diagnose it.

>
>The original mechanic (who replaced the CPS and PCM) says he can't
>figure it out, but the plugs foul (cheap Bosch!) and seems flooded.
>
>Now I am not a genius, but my thinking here is if I brough my jeep to
>you and it was running fine, and I got it back running bad or not
>running at all, and not once, but twice and worse each time, does it
>not make sense to look at what you REPLACED???
>
>My thinking here is MAYBE the junk yard PCM you replaced my original
>with is either bad or improperly programed. Maybe for a V8 or
>different year? Or maybe it cannot communicate with a sensor??
>
>So... I gotta know what you all think of this saga. Cause I have to
>tell you, if it's not resolved soon or my vehicle replaced by the
>insurance company (guy who rear-eneded me) soon, I may go postal!
>
>Any HO's on the problem(s)? I miss my jeep!!!!

As I see it, you have 2 choices.

1) Take it to somebody who knows what he's doing.

2) Go postal.

>
>`Casper

Re: 1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!
 

In message <urhae29o553ol4oqqjedjojic6acqe5uae@4ax.com>, "Casper" wrote:

>First off, thanks to Mike Romain and DougW for thier input and help
>previously. It's been a while, so if you do not remember, that's cool.
>Doug might remember putting up pictures I posted on his website of my
>post-accident '93 GCL (red).
>
>Here is the saga since my last post...
>
>Would you believe I still DO NOT have my jeep back? Yep! It's been
>over 9 months and my jeep is still not back in my drivveway and
>working! Originally I posted in this group about some problems I had
>starting the jeep where the "check engine" light was failing to light.
>This was after the first trip to the body shop where they put on the
>wrong rear hatch and parts!
>
>Everytime the CE light failed, there was no voltage to the fuel pump
>and no start. Everytime the CE light came on, the jeep started. So
>what happend you ask? Well, some months later, along with 4 spark plug
>changes (would you believe the master mechanics said the Bosch plugs
>are cheap and foul easily?), a Crank Position Sensor, a wiring
>harness, a coil and a computer later, it stil isn't running!

Bosch plugs are crap. If you have one of their universal fit, splice in, POS O2
sensors, throw that away too.

Has anyone verified a problem with any of the parts you replaced, or are we
using the shotgun approach?

Has the check engine light problem been resolved? If not, you need to start
there, since it indicates a problem with the PCM grounds, power feeds or the PCM
it's self.


>Right now, the jeep sometimes starts, but hard start. You can smell
>gas when it doesn't start and it appears to be flooded. The spark
>plugs are fouling in just a couple of miles of driving. If it does
>start (and sometimes it will not), it might run ok, or bad right from
>the start. Sometimes it runs ok for a short while, then gets rougher
>and rougher until it stalls out. Occasionally, if it doesn't start
>right off the first key turn, if you quickly press the gas pedal just
>a hair, it will start (hard).
>
>So the dealership it went to so it could be put on the MDS machine
>says it's the CPS and somewhat low fuel pressure, but they don't tell
>me the no longer use the MDS until after the diagnostics. WTF?

First, MDS doesn't even exist anymore. Second, even if it did, it wouldn't do
you any good. You need somebody who knows what he's doing to diagnose it.

>
>The original mechanic (who replaced the CPS and PCM) says he can't
>figure it out, but the plugs foul (cheap Bosch!) and seems flooded.
>
>Now I am not a genius, but my thinking here is if I brough my jeep to
>you and it was running fine, and I got it back running bad or not
>running at all, and not once, but twice and worse each time, does it
>not make sense to look at what you REPLACED???
>
>My thinking here is MAYBE the junk yard PCM you replaced my original
>with is either bad or improperly programed. Maybe for a V8 or
>different year? Or maybe it cannot communicate with a sensor??
>
>So... I gotta know what you all think of this saga. Cause I have to
>tell you, if it's not resolved soon or my vehicle replaced by the
>insurance company (guy who rear-eneded me) soon, I may go postal!
>
>Any HO's on the problem(s)? I miss my jeep!!!!

As I see it, you have 2 choices.

1) Take it to somebody who knows what he's doing.

2) Go postal.

>
>`Casper

Re: 1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!
 

>Bosch plugs are crap. If you have one of their universal fit, splice in, POS O2
>sensors, throw that away too.

As I said, the plugs have been replaced 4 times. O2 sensor no, but
that's been tested several times.

>Has anyone verified a problem with any of the parts you replaced, or are we
>using the shotgun approach?

There have been 3 master mechanics working on this issue. It is
currently in the hands of a master tech who specializes in electrical
problems and trains techs across the country in troubleshooting.

>Has the check engine light problem been resolved? If not, you need to start
>there, since it indicates a problem with the PCM grounds, power feeds or the PCM
>it's self.

As I stated, the PCM has been replaced already (once). That resolved
the check engine light.

>First, MDS doesn't even exist anymore. Second, even if it did, it wouldn't do
>you any good. You need somebody who knows what he's doing to diagnose it.

Again, it's been in the hands of three (maybe more) master techs,
including one who is a master with the MDS. That was a specific
request made to Crysler.

>1) Take it to somebody who knows what he's doing.

Been there, doing that... at least the best I am told is around here.

Re: 1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!
 

>Bosch plugs are crap. If you have one of their universal fit, splice in, POS O2
>sensors, throw that away too.

As I said, the plugs have been replaced 4 times. O2 sensor no, but
that's been tested several times.

>Has anyone verified a problem with any of the parts you replaced, or are we
>using the shotgun approach?

There have been 3 master mechanics working on this issue. It is
currently in the hands of a master tech who specializes in electrical
problems and trains techs across the country in troubleshooting.

>Has the check engine light problem been resolved? If not, you need to start
>there, since it indicates a problem with the PCM grounds, power feeds or the PCM
>it's self.

As I stated, the PCM has been replaced already (once). That resolved
the check engine light.

>First, MDS doesn't even exist anymore. Second, even if it did, it wouldn't do
>you any good. You need somebody who knows what he's doing to diagnose it.

Again, it's been in the hands of three (maybe more) master techs,
including one who is a master with the MDS. That was a specific
request made to Crysler.

>1) Take it to somebody who knows what he's doing.

Been there, doing that... at least the best I am told is around here.

Re: 1993 GC Limited - I Miss My Jeep!!
 

>Bosch plugs are crap. If you have one of their universal fit, splice in, POS O2
>sensors, throw that away too.

As I said, the plugs have been replaced 4 times. O2 sensor no, but
that's been tested several times.

>Has anyone verified a problem with any of the parts you replaced, or are we
>using the shotgun approach?

There have been 3 master mechanics working on this issue. It is
currently in the hands of a master tech who specializes in electrical
problems and trains techs across the country in troubleshooting.

>Has the check engine light problem been resolved? If not, you need to start
>there, since it indicates a problem with the PCM grounds, power feeds or the PCM
>it's self.

As I stated, the PCM has been replaced already (once). That resolved
the check engine light.

>First, MDS doesn't even exist anymore. Second, even if it did, it wouldn't do
>you any good. You need somebody who knows what he's doing to diagnose it.

Again, it's been in the hands of three (maybe more) master techs,
including one who is a master with the MDS. That was a specific
request made to Crysler.

>1) Take it to somebody who knows what he's doing.

Been there, doing that... at least the best I am told is around here.