1986 'Nuttered' CJ7 4.2L Canadian Emissions Data
04-18-2005, 12:32 PM
#81
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1986 'Nuttered' CJ7 4.2L Canadian Emissions Data
> For the 'hot rod' test, you now have to go to a $tealer and get a letter
> stating the engine you have was never used in your vehicle or have the
> test done at the $tealer so they just know this.
>
> Places like Canadian Tire require the letter now they told me.
That's not much of a problem, Most stealerships should know what engines
were used in what cars during which years.
Also the engine has to be out of production in the year the vehicle was
made. If you place a 350 engine (from an 88 vette) into your 92 Blazer you
won't be tested as a hotrod, you will be tested as a 350 engine and have to
pass 1992 350 emissions due to the 350 still being a production engine in
1992. If you install a 283 into the same vehicle you will get the hotrod
test as that engine was last produced in 1967 (?) or so.
If you install an engine (say 350 again) into a ford, dodge or jeep you will
be tested as a hotrod as (for the most part in the last 20 yrs.) Jeep hasn't
used the GM 350.
Another way people try to beat the smoggers is to install a newer engine
then whats in their vehicle, swap out their 1990 4.0 for a 1998, in this
case the test is still done to 1990 standards (unless you shoot your mouth
off at the testing facility).
Snow ... think I'll install a 283 in the 89 Caprice wagon for hotrod
status .. lol
04-18-2005, 12:39 PM
#82
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1986 'Nuttered' CJ7 4.2L Canadian Emissions Data
Snow wrote:
>
> > For the 'hot rod' test, you now have to go to a $tealer and get a letter
> > stating the engine you have was never used in your vehicle or have the
> > test done at the $tealer so they just know this.
> >
> > Places like Canadian Tire require the letter now they told me.
>
> That's not much of a problem, Most stealerships should know what engines
> were used in what cars during which years.
> Also the engine has to be out of production in the year the vehicle was
> made. If you place a 350 engine (from an 88 vette) into your 92 Blazer you
> won't be tested as a hotrod, you will be tested as a 350 engine and have to
> pass 1992 350 emissions due to the 350 still being a production engine in
> 1992. If you install a 283 into the same vehicle you will get the hotrod
> test as that engine was last produced in 1967 (?) or so.
>
> If you install an engine (say 350 again) into a ford, dodge or jeep you will
> be tested as a hotrod as (for the most part in the last 20 yrs.) Jeep hasn't
> used the GM 350.
>
> Another way people try to beat the smoggers is to install a newer engine
> then whats in their vehicle, swap out their 1990 4.0 for a 1998, in this
> case the test is still done to 1990 standards (unless you shoot your mouth
> off at the testing facility).
>
> Snow ... think I'll install a 283 in the 89 Caprice wagon for hotrod
> status .. lol
Yup, I got the hot rod status for my first test, but then they figured
out a 258 was a 258 no matter if it came with a 1 bbl with no emissions
or a 2 bbl with a computer so I had to pass the real test for the 86
CJ7.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> > For the 'hot rod' test, you now have to go to a $tealer and get a letter
> > stating the engine you have was never used in your vehicle or have the
> > test done at the $tealer so they just know this.
> >
> > Places like Canadian Tire require the letter now they told me.
>
> That's not much of a problem, Most stealerships should know what engines
> were used in what cars during which years.
> Also the engine has to be out of production in the year the vehicle was
> made. If you place a 350 engine (from an 88 vette) into your 92 Blazer you
> won't be tested as a hotrod, you will be tested as a 350 engine and have to
> pass 1992 350 emissions due to the 350 still being a production engine in
> 1992. If you install a 283 into the same vehicle you will get the hotrod
> test as that engine was last produced in 1967 (?) or so.
>
> If you install an engine (say 350 again) into a ford, dodge or jeep you will
> be tested as a hotrod as (for the most part in the last 20 yrs.) Jeep hasn't
> used the GM 350.
>
> Another way people try to beat the smoggers is to install a newer engine
> then whats in their vehicle, swap out their 1990 4.0 for a 1998, in this
> case the test is still done to 1990 standards (unless you shoot your mouth
> off at the testing facility).
>
> Snow ... think I'll install a 283 in the 89 Caprice wagon for hotrod
> status .. lol
Yup, I got the hot rod status for my first test, but then they figured
out a 258 was a 258 no matter if it came with a 1 bbl with no emissions
or a 2 bbl with a computer so I had to pass the real test for the 86
CJ7.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
04-18-2005, 12:39 PM
#83
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1986 'Nuttered' CJ7 4.2L Canadian Emissions Data
Snow wrote:
>
> > For the 'hot rod' test, you now have to go to a $tealer and get a letter
> > stating the engine you have was never used in your vehicle or have the
> > test done at the $tealer so they just know this.
> >
> > Places like Canadian Tire require the letter now they told me.
>
> That's not much of a problem, Most stealerships should know what engines
> were used in what cars during which years.
> Also the engine has to be out of production in the year the vehicle was
> made. If you place a 350 engine (from an 88 vette) into your 92 Blazer you
> won't be tested as a hotrod, you will be tested as a 350 engine and have to
> pass 1992 350 emissions due to the 350 still being a production engine in
> 1992. If you install a 283 into the same vehicle you will get the hotrod
> test as that engine was last produced in 1967 (?) or so.
>
> If you install an engine (say 350 again) into a ford, dodge or jeep you will
> be tested as a hotrod as (for the most part in the last 20 yrs.) Jeep hasn't
> used the GM 350.
>
> Another way people try to beat the smoggers is to install a newer engine
> then whats in their vehicle, swap out their 1990 4.0 for a 1998, in this
> case the test is still done to 1990 standards (unless you shoot your mouth
> off at the testing facility).
>
> Snow ... think I'll install a 283 in the 89 Caprice wagon for hotrod
> status .. lol
Yup, I got the hot rod status for my first test, but then they figured
out a 258 was a 258 no matter if it came with a 1 bbl with no emissions
or a 2 bbl with a computer so I had to pass the real test for the 86
CJ7.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> > For the 'hot rod' test, you now have to go to a $tealer and get a letter
> > stating the engine you have was never used in your vehicle or have the
> > test done at the $tealer so they just know this.
> >
> > Places like Canadian Tire require the letter now they told me.
>
> That's not much of a problem, Most stealerships should know what engines
> were used in what cars during which years.
> Also the engine has to be out of production in the year the vehicle was
> made. If you place a 350 engine (from an 88 vette) into your 92 Blazer you
> won't be tested as a hotrod, you will be tested as a 350 engine and have to
> pass 1992 350 emissions due to the 350 still being a production engine in
> 1992. If you install a 283 into the same vehicle you will get the hotrod
> test as that engine was last produced in 1967 (?) or so.
>
> If you install an engine (say 350 again) into a ford, dodge or jeep you will
> be tested as a hotrod as (for the most part in the last 20 yrs.) Jeep hasn't
> used the GM 350.
>
> Another way people try to beat the smoggers is to install a newer engine
> then whats in their vehicle, swap out their 1990 4.0 for a 1998, in this
> case the test is still done to 1990 standards (unless you shoot your mouth
> off at the testing facility).
>
> Snow ... think I'll install a 283 in the 89 Caprice wagon for hotrod
> status .. lol
Yup, I got the hot rod status for my first test, but then they figured
out a 258 was a 258 no matter if it came with a 1 bbl with no emissions
or a 2 bbl with a computer so I had to pass the real test for the 86
CJ7.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
04-18-2005, 12:39 PM
#84
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1986 'Nuttered' CJ7 4.2L Canadian Emissions Data
Snow wrote:
>
> > For the 'hot rod' test, you now have to go to a $tealer and get a letter
> > stating the engine you have was never used in your vehicle or have the
> > test done at the $tealer so they just know this.
> >
> > Places like Canadian Tire require the letter now they told me.
>
> That's not much of a problem, Most stealerships should know what engines
> were used in what cars during which years.
> Also the engine has to be out of production in the year the vehicle was
> made. If you place a 350 engine (from an 88 vette) into your 92 Blazer you
> won't be tested as a hotrod, you will be tested as a 350 engine and have to
> pass 1992 350 emissions due to the 350 still being a production engine in
> 1992. If you install a 283 into the same vehicle you will get the hotrod
> test as that engine was last produced in 1967 (?) or so.
>
> If you install an engine (say 350 again) into a ford, dodge or jeep you will
> be tested as a hotrod as (for the most part in the last 20 yrs.) Jeep hasn't
> used the GM 350.
>
> Another way people try to beat the smoggers is to install a newer engine
> then whats in their vehicle, swap out their 1990 4.0 for a 1998, in this
> case the test is still done to 1990 standards (unless you shoot your mouth
> off at the testing facility).
>
> Snow ... think I'll install a 283 in the 89 Caprice wagon for hotrod
> status .. lol
Yup, I got the hot rod status for my first test, but then they figured
out a 258 was a 258 no matter if it came with a 1 bbl with no emissions
or a 2 bbl with a computer so I had to pass the real test for the 86
CJ7.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> > For the 'hot rod' test, you now have to go to a $tealer and get a letter
> > stating the engine you have was never used in your vehicle or have the
> > test done at the $tealer so they just know this.
> >
> > Places like Canadian Tire require the letter now they told me.
>
> That's not much of a problem, Most stealerships should know what engines
> were used in what cars during which years.
> Also the engine has to be out of production in the year the vehicle was
> made. If you place a 350 engine (from an 88 vette) into your 92 Blazer you
> won't be tested as a hotrod, you will be tested as a 350 engine and have to
> pass 1992 350 emissions due to the 350 still being a production engine in
> 1992. If you install a 283 into the same vehicle you will get the hotrod
> test as that engine was last produced in 1967 (?) or so.
>
> If you install an engine (say 350 again) into a ford, dodge or jeep you will
> be tested as a hotrod as (for the most part in the last 20 yrs.) Jeep hasn't
> used the GM 350.
>
> Another way people try to beat the smoggers is to install a newer engine
> then whats in their vehicle, swap out their 1990 4.0 for a 1998, in this
> case the test is still done to 1990 standards (unless you shoot your mouth
> off at the testing facility).
>
> Snow ... think I'll install a 283 in the 89 Caprice wagon for hotrod
> status .. lol
Yup, I got the hot rod status for my first test, but then they figured
out a 258 was a 258 no matter if it came with a 1 bbl with no emissions
or a 2 bbl with a computer so I had to pass the real test for the 86
CJ7.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
04-18-2005, 12:39 PM
#85
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1986 'Nuttered' CJ7 4.2L Canadian Emissions Data
Snow wrote:
>
> > For the 'hot rod' test, you now have to go to a $tealer and get a letter
> > stating the engine you have was never used in your vehicle or have the
> > test done at the $tealer so they just know this.
> >
> > Places like Canadian Tire require the letter now they told me.
>
> That's not much of a problem, Most stealerships should know what engines
> were used in what cars during which years.
> Also the engine has to be out of production in the year the vehicle was
> made. If you place a 350 engine (from an 88 vette) into your 92 Blazer you
> won't be tested as a hotrod, you will be tested as a 350 engine and have to
> pass 1992 350 emissions due to the 350 still being a production engine in
> 1992. If you install a 283 into the same vehicle you will get the hotrod
> test as that engine was last produced in 1967 (?) or so.
>
> If you install an engine (say 350 again) into a ford, dodge or jeep you will
> be tested as a hotrod as (for the most part in the last 20 yrs.) Jeep hasn't
> used the GM 350.
>
> Another way people try to beat the smoggers is to install a newer engine
> then whats in their vehicle, swap out their 1990 4.0 for a 1998, in this
> case the test is still done to 1990 standards (unless you shoot your mouth
> off at the testing facility).
>
> Snow ... think I'll install a 283 in the 89 Caprice wagon for hotrod
> status .. lol
Yup, I got the hot rod status for my first test, but then they figured
out a 258 was a 258 no matter if it came with a 1 bbl with no emissions
or a 2 bbl with a computer so I had to pass the real test for the 86
CJ7.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> > For the 'hot rod' test, you now have to go to a $tealer and get a letter
> > stating the engine you have was never used in your vehicle or have the
> > test done at the $tealer so they just know this.
> >
> > Places like Canadian Tire require the letter now they told me.
>
> That's not much of a problem, Most stealerships should know what engines
> were used in what cars during which years.
> Also the engine has to be out of production in the year the vehicle was
> made. If you place a 350 engine (from an 88 vette) into your 92 Blazer you
> won't be tested as a hotrod, you will be tested as a 350 engine and have to
> pass 1992 350 emissions due to the 350 still being a production engine in
> 1992. If you install a 283 into the same vehicle you will get the hotrod
> test as that engine was last produced in 1967 (?) or so.
>
> If you install an engine (say 350 again) into a ford, dodge or jeep you will
> be tested as a hotrod as (for the most part in the last 20 yrs.) Jeep hasn't
> used the GM 350.
>
> Another way people try to beat the smoggers is to install a newer engine
> then whats in their vehicle, swap out their 1990 4.0 for a 1998, in this
> case the test is still done to 1990 standards (unless you shoot your mouth
> off at the testing facility).
>
> Snow ... think I'll install a 283 in the 89 Caprice wagon for hotrod
> status .. lol
Yup, I got the hot rod status for my first test, but then they figured
out a 258 was a 258 no matter if it came with a 1 bbl with no emissions
or a 2 bbl with a computer so I had to pass the real test for the 86
CJ7.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
04-18-2005, 07:44 PM
#86
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1986 'Nuttered' CJ7 4.2L Canadian Emissions Data
I'm in Kingston 3.5 hrs east of t.o
well i know my jeep doesn't go that fast.
feels like it could with some tuning but right now it can't.
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4263AFAD.5C0E9B9E@sympatico.ca...
> Crap man, where do you live?
>
> I am in Toronto and am home most days with more than half a clue how to
> set them up for our 'Canadian' emissions pass. I can't do much work,
> but I can sure still point....
>
> My CJ7 goes like a scalded cat! It lights up my 33's too easy from a
> start, I pull really fast to 50 mph in 2nd gear hitting about 4400 rpm,
> 3rd gear pulls hard up to 75 mph, 4th will bury the speedo and I have
> 'no' freakin' urge to find out how fast 5th will go.....
>
> And my readings are below.
>
> Mike
>
> u know who wrote:
>>
>> hi according the to gov of Ontario emissions pamphlet.
>> I must have a diagnostic performed by authorized fix place.
>> then according to there diagnostic sheet of probable causes I can do the
>> repairs according to only what is on the list up to the repair cost
>> limit. I
>> must keep all receipts and the diagnostic list to show as proof. but only
>> I
>> or the garage that did the test can work on my car to count toward the
>> limit.
>> I would get more bang for my buck if I do the work than paying them to do
>> it.
>>
>> so couple of questions what happens when you have spent your 450 and then
>> go
>> back 2 yrs later and you fail again and the list of repairs have been
>> done
>> but ya still fail. oh and what happens when parts are no longer
>> available
>> from any source to fix emissions components which I have all ready run
>> into.
>> carbed jeeps rarely pass emissions and if they do they are so leaned out
>> that ya can't drive them.
>> next year the Howell fuel injection set up. I have already spoken to them
>> and there off road kit meets regular emission requirements other than
>> cali.
>> plus the increase in fuel economy will make it worth it.
>>
>> so cause they put the wrong engine I should get a free re test eh well
>> I'll
>> try it and see.
>>
>> now I'm starting to see why the guy sold this jeep.
>> still not deterred though just fed up with gov.
>>
>> well I will be paying 170 for diagnostics that include carb and timing
>> adjustments, as well as emission components check.and they have the jeep
>> for
>> the entire day.
>> that's got to be worth something there.
>>
>> "Snow" <snowbal@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> news:9bb8e.26813$8i6.1037704@news20.bellglobal.com ...
>> > You might get burned on the theory of have the diagnostic tell you
>> > whats
>> > wrong and then do the work yourself. If you live here in the Land of
>> > "Dalton I'm dumber then rock M'ginty" (Ontario). You will need to
>> > show
>> > any and all work was preformed by an authorized repair facility in
>> > order
>> > to meet the cap quota. If you do $350.00 dollars of repairs on your
>> > own
>> > before the retest and still fail that $350.00 WON"T count towards the
>> > cap
>> > (about $550.00 IIRC).
>> >
>> > Also that cap is good for one time only, the first time a vehicle fails
>> > it
>> > has a repair cap and it will be granted a conditional pass (one time
>> > only)
>> > subsequent fails the vehicle is to be fixed until it passes.
>> >
>> > Two tests ago my 93 XJ fail, here is a breakdown of the repair charges
>> > by
>> > Cambodian Tire.
>> > Diagnostic $100.00
>> > O2 sensor $ 80.00
>> > Oil Change $ 15.00 (this was oil only)
>> > Air/Oil/Fuel filter $50.00 (filters only)
>> > Labour $145.00 ($60/hr)
>> > Total $390.00
>> >
>> > The cap was $500 as the test had been established in my area for
>> > sometime.
>> > The Cherokee still failed the retest after all that was done. The last
>> > thing the Tech. did before retesting was the oil change (cost about
>> > $20)
>> > main reason he did this was the next step in the T/S was to change the
>> > cat. $370.00 still allowed him to change the cat, $390.00 ment that
>> > repair
>> > would put me over the cap and he couldn't do it.
>> >
>> > I asked thenif I were to do the work (change the sensor) and return
>> > with
>> > it would they retest it, No problem, but if it still failed I would
>> > have
>> > to prove that a authorized shop fixed it otherwise I would still have
>> > that
>> > $500 cap, if an authorized shop fixed their charges would be deducted
>> > from
>> > the cap total and I would have the remaining still to spend.
>> >
>> > Snow...
>> >
>> > "u know who" <wraithyneon@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> > news:C908e.26607$8i6.969093@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
>> >> ya extortion test that's a good name for it.
>> >> it appears my egr is broken as the swivel vacuum nipple seems to be
>> >> bent
>> >> and the housing of where the vacuum nipple sits is cracked and broken.
>> >>
>> >> I'm going to pay for the diagnostics test then take the
>> >> recommendations
>> >> and do the work myself and keep a folder with receipts. then take it
>> >> back
>> >> for the retest once I hit my limit. and also at that point I will have
>> >> my
>> >> new egr and whatever else they recommend as well as my nutter bypass
>> >> and
>> >> 3 ounces of acetone added to the fuel.
>> >>
>> >> On my e test they put that I have a 4.0L.
>> >> On my asm2525 test my NO ppm was 3677 timing was way to advanced limit
>> >> was 893. And curb idle test HC ppm was 325 limit was 200.reason idle
>> >> to
>> >> high and mixture screws set to rich. also CO% was 1.03 missed a pass
>> >> by
>> >> .04
>> >>
>> >> well at least I can assume that I should pass next time as the jeep
>> >> was
>> >> so out of tune. reason for being out of tune I found a bad vacuum leak
>> >> and never adjusted the carb to reflect the stopped vacuum leak.
>> >>
>> >> been so long since I played with a carbed equipped veh. and the fact
>> >> that
>> >> it is also computer controlled sucks. which basically means that some
>> >> of
>> >> my adjustment can be over ruled by the computer.
>> >>
>> >> alwell
>> >>
>> >> keep fingers crossed for Tuesday. diagnostic day.
>> >> the retest down the road.
>> >> not so bad cause ministry issued me real plates even though it was a
>> >> resale change of ownership. so theoretically I don't require a test
>> >> till
>> >> my plate renewal.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >> news:42607229.7E0A03D7@sympatico.ca...
>> >>> Oh, you can usually clean the EGR's out. Carbon is an issue and for
>> >>> sure you need one working to pass the sniffer.
>> >>>
>> >>> Mike
>> >>>
>> >>> u know who wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> hmmmmm
>> >>>> I read the nutter instructions sounds like this will have to be
>> >>>> something
>> >>>> that I will have to do to my 89yj as it will not pass emissions
>> >>>> the sad part is it was recommended that I may need a evap canister
>> >>>> guess
>> >>>> what no longer available anywhere.
>> >>>> government sucks
>> >>>>
>> >>>> if I fail then 450$ conditional pass, then 650$ ever 2 years really
>> >>>> sucks
>> >>>> I know I still need an egr though.
>> >>>> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >>>> news:42605772.F0571EA0@sympatico.ca...
>> >>>> > All the junk can be left in place. It only requires 2 new wires
>> >>>> > from
>> >>>> > the ignition module to the distributor that fit inside the loom.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > You then just set the carb mix and timing. That's it!
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > If you have to put it back, it is only 2 wires to change.....
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Mike
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Jeff Strickland wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >>>> >> news:42604598.8FE80D28@sympatico.ca...
>> >>>> >> > Well after arguing myself blue with a 'mechanic' that says no
>> >>>> >> > way
>> >>>> >> > a
>> >>>> >> > Jeep
>> >>>> >> > with a carb can pass emissions in California if you disable the
>> >>>> >> > emissions computer or do a 'Nutter' on it after the first guy I
>> >>>> >> > think
>> >>>> >> > to
>> >>>> >> > put the directions online:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> The problem is, in Calif., the system has to physically be
>> >>>> >> installed. I
>> >>>> >> don't know what the bypass entails, but if stuff is removed, then
>> >>>> >> the
>> >>>> >> vehicle fails because of the visual inspection that comes before
>> >>>> >> the
>> >>>> >> sniff
>> >>>> >> test.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> There is considerable irony here, the bypass can conceivably
>> >>>> >> result
>> >>>> >> in
>> >>>> >> better performance with the sniffer, but because the system
>> >>>> >> hasn't
>> >>>> >> got
>> >>>> >> all
>> >>>> >> of the components, it automatically fails. The vehicle can spit
>> >>>> >> out
>> >>>> >> better
>> >>>> >> numbers, but if the parts are missing, it will fail. Sad - even
>> >>>> >> stupid -
>> >>>> >> but
>> >>>> >> true.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> > http://www.off-road.com/jeep/jnutter1.htm
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > It gives a sweet 25% 'seat of the pants' power boost and an
>> >>>> >> > 'easy'
>> >>>> >> > 10
>> >>>> >> > mph extra per gear.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > The mechanic's reasoning is the NOx will blow out or the timing
>> >>>> >> > will
>> >>>> >> > have to be too far back to pass.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > The Jeep numbers for an 89 YJ 4.2 in California are 875 NOx on
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > ASM
>> >>>> >> > 2525 test I was told.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > I found my 2003 ASM 2525 emissions papers for my Canadian 1986
>> >>>> >> > CJ7
>> >>>> >> > that
>> >>>> >> > I
>> >>>> >> > disabled the computer in.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Specs.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > - 1986 Canadian CJ7 4.2L, Likely 60,000 original miles on it.
>> >>>> >> > - 'No' Catalytic converter (not needed in Canada)
>> >>>> >> > - 2" straight pipe with a high flow Dynomax turbo muffler.
>> >>>> >> > - No computer, 'Nuttered'
>> >>>> >> > - Base timing set at 9 deg BTDC with the vacuum line off like
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > book
>> >>>> >> > says for a non computer engine. (If I go with the higher RPM
>> >>>> >> > setting of
>> >>>> >> > full advance the sticker on a YJ says, I end up with 6 or 7
>> >>>> >> > deg.
>> >>>> >> > BTDC
>> >>>> >> > base and I find that too boggy for power so I even have room to
>> >>>> >> > play
>> >>>> >> > there.)
>> >>>> >> > - 92 octane ESSO gas.
>> >>>> >> > - Ported on the timing advance
>> >>>> >> > - Stock BBD carb set to 'best lean idle' and always a fresh
>> >>>> >> > $20.00
>> >>>> >> > rebuild kit for the test.
>> >>>> >> > - Accel Supercoil for hot spark with Champion plugs and OEM
>> >>>> >> > wires.
>> >>>> >> > - Strong pull up to 4400 rpm, then falls flat.
>> >>>> >> > - 11L/100km or something like 23 US mpg highway
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On the ASM 2525 test I got 589 NOx!!!!!.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And 16 ppm HC
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And 0.11% CO
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Photo of the papers here:
>> >>>> >> > http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=4290636987
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And a post on alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4 with the JPG
>> >>>> >> > photo
>> >>>> >> > of the
>> >>>> >> > paperwork.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Not a fluke, I killed the computer in 2000, this 2003 one was
>> >>>> >> > just
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > only year they actually put the NOx reading on because I don't
>> >>>> >> > have to
>> >>>> >> > pass that.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And the best part is I have passed the last test it ever will
>> >>>> >> > need! It
>> >>>> >> > becomes too old before the next one.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Mike
>> >>>> >> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> >>>> >> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
well i know my jeep doesn't go that fast.
feels like it could with some tuning but right now it can't.
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4263AFAD.5C0E9B9E@sympatico.ca...
> Crap man, where do you live?
>
> I am in Toronto and am home most days with more than half a clue how to
> set them up for our 'Canadian' emissions pass. I can't do much work,
> but I can sure still point....
>
> My CJ7 goes like a scalded cat! It lights up my 33's too easy from a
> start, I pull really fast to 50 mph in 2nd gear hitting about 4400 rpm,
> 3rd gear pulls hard up to 75 mph, 4th will bury the speedo and I have
> 'no' freakin' urge to find out how fast 5th will go.....
>
> And my readings are below.
>
> Mike
>
> u know who wrote:
>>
>> hi according the to gov of Ontario emissions pamphlet.
>> I must have a diagnostic performed by authorized fix place.
>> then according to there diagnostic sheet of probable causes I can do the
>> repairs according to only what is on the list up to the repair cost
>> limit. I
>> must keep all receipts and the diagnostic list to show as proof. but only
>> I
>> or the garage that did the test can work on my car to count toward the
>> limit.
>> I would get more bang for my buck if I do the work than paying them to do
>> it.
>>
>> so couple of questions what happens when you have spent your 450 and then
>> go
>> back 2 yrs later and you fail again and the list of repairs have been
>> done
>> but ya still fail. oh and what happens when parts are no longer
>> available
>> from any source to fix emissions components which I have all ready run
>> into.
>> carbed jeeps rarely pass emissions and if they do they are so leaned out
>> that ya can't drive them.
>> next year the Howell fuel injection set up. I have already spoken to them
>> and there off road kit meets regular emission requirements other than
>> cali.
>> plus the increase in fuel economy will make it worth it.
>>
>> so cause they put the wrong engine I should get a free re test eh well
>> I'll
>> try it and see.
>>
>> now I'm starting to see why the guy sold this jeep.
>> still not deterred though just fed up with gov.
>>
>> well I will be paying 170 for diagnostics that include carb and timing
>> adjustments, as well as emission components check.and they have the jeep
>> for
>> the entire day.
>> that's got to be worth something there.
>>
>> "Snow" <snowbal@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> news:9bb8e.26813$8i6.1037704@news20.bellglobal.com ...
>> > You might get burned on the theory of have the diagnostic tell you
>> > whats
>> > wrong and then do the work yourself. If you live here in the Land of
>> > "Dalton I'm dumber then rock M'ginty" (Ontario). You will need to
>> > show
>> > any and all work was preformed by an authorized repair facility in
>> > order
>> > to meet the cap quota. If you do $350.00 dollars of repairs on your
>> > own
>> > before the retest and still fail that $350.00 WON"T count towards the
>> > cap
>> > (about $550.00 IIRC).
>> >
>> > Also that cap is good for one time only, the first time a vehicle fails
>> > it
>> > has a repair cap and it will be granted a conditional pass (one time
>> > only)
>> > subsequent fails the vehicle is to be fixed until it passes.
>> >
>> > Two tests ago my 93 XJ fail, here is a breakdown of the repair charges
>> > by
>> > Cambodian Tire.
>> > Diagnostic $100.00
>> > O2 sensor $ 80.00
>> > Oil Change $ 15.00 (this was oil only)
>> > Air/Oil/Fuel filter $50.00 (filters only)
>> > Labour $145.00 ($60/hr)
>> > Total $390.00
>> >
>> > The cap was $500 as the test had been established in my area for
>> > sometime.
>> > The Cherokee still failed the retest after all that was done. The last
>> > thing the Tech. did before retesting was the oil change (cost about
>> > $20)
>> > main reason he did this was the next step in the T/S was to change the
>> > cat. $370.00 still allowed him to change the cat, $390.00 ment that
>> > repair
>> > would put me over the cap and he couldn't do it.
>> >
>> > I asked thenif I were to do the work (change the sensor) and return
>> > with
>> > it would they retest it, No problem, but if it still failed I would
>> > have
>> > to prove that a authorized shop fixed it otherwise I would still have
>> > that
>> > $500 cap, if an authorized shop fixed their charges would be deducted
>> > from
>> > the cap total and I would have the remaining still to spend.
>> >
>> > Snow...
>> >
>> > "u know who" <wraithyneon@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> > news:C908e.26607$8i6.969093@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
>> >> ya extortion test that's a good name for it.
>> >> it appears my egr is broken as the swivel vacuum nipple seems to be
>> >> bent
>> >> and the housing of where the vacuum nipple sits is cracked and broken.
>> >>
>> >> I'm going to pay for the diagnostics test then take the
>> >> recommendations
>> >> and do the work myself and keep a folder with receipts. then take it
>> >> back
>> >> for the retest once I hit my limit. and also at that point I will have
>> >> my
>> >> new egr and whatever else they recommend as well as my nutter bypass
>> >> and
>> >> 3 ounces of acetone added to the fuel.
>> >>
>> >> On my e test they put that I have a 4.0L.
>> >> On my asm2525 test my NO ppm was 3677 timing was way to advanced limit
>> >> was 893. And curb idle test HC ppm was 325 limit was 200.reason idle
>> >> to
>> >> high and mixture screws set to rich. also CO% was 1.03 missed a pass
>> >> by
>> >> .04
>> >>
>> >> well at least I can assume that I should pass next time as the jeep
>> >> was
>> >> so out of tune. reason for being out of tune I found a bad vacuum leak
>> >> and never adjusted the carb to reflect the stopped vacuum leak.
>> >>
>> >> been so long since I played with a carbed equipped veh. and the fact
>> >> that
>> >> it is also computer controlled sucks. which basically means that some
>> >> of
>> >> my adjustment can be over ruled by the computer.
>> >>
>> >> alwell
>> >>
>> >> keep fingers crossed for Tuesday. diagnostic day.
>> >> the retest down the road.
>> >> not so bad cause ministry issued me real plates even though it was a
>> >> resale change of ownership. so theoretically I don't require a test
>> >> till
>> >> my plate renewal.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >> news:42607229.7E0A03D7@sympatico.ca...
>> >>> Oh, you can usually clean the EGR's out. Carbon is an issue and for
>> >>> sure you need one working to pass the sniffer.
>> >>>
>> >>> Mike
>> >>>
>> >>> u know who wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> hmmmmm
>> >>>> I read the nutter instructions sounds like this will have to be
>> >>>> something
>> >>>> that I will have to do to my 89yj as it will not pass emissions
>> >>>> the sad part is it was recommended that I may need a evap canister
>> >>>> guess
>> >>>> what no longer available anywhere.
>> >>>> government sucks
>> >>>>
>> >>>> if I fail then 450$ conditional pass, then 650$ ever 2 years really
>> >>>> sucks
>> >>>> I know I still need an egr though.
>> >>>> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >>>> news:42605772.F0571EA0@sympatico.ca...
>> >>>> > All the junk can be left in place. It only requires 2 new wires
>> >>>> > from
>> >>>> > the ignition module to the distributor that fit inside the loom.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > You then just set the carb mix and timing. That's it!
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > If you have to put it back, it is only 2 wires to change.....
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Mike
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Jeff Strickland wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >>>> >> news:42604598.8FE80D28@sympatico.ca...
>> >>>> >> > Well after arguing myself blue with a 'mechanic' that says no
>> >>>> >> > way
>> >>>> >> > a
>> >>>> >> > Jeep
>> >>>> >> > with a carb can pass emissions in California if you disable the
>> >>>> >> > emissions computer or do a 'Nutter' on it after the first guy I
>> >>>> >> > think
>> >>>> >> > to
>> >>>> >> > put the directions online:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> The problem is, in Calif., the system has to physically be
>> >>>> >> installed. I
>> >>>> >> don't know what the bypass entails, but if stuff is removed, then
>> >>>> >> the
>> >>>> >> vehicle fails because of the visual inspection that comes before
>> >>>> >> the
>> >>>> >> sniff
>> >>>> >> test.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> There is considerable irony here, the bypass can conceivably
>> >>>> >> result
>> >>>> >> in
>> >>>> >> better performance with the sniffer, but because the system
>> >>>> >> hasn't
>> >>>> >> got
>> >>>> >> all
>> >>>> >> of the components, it automatically fails. The vehicle can spit
>> >>>> >> out
>> >>>> >> better
>> >>>> >> numbers, but if the parts are missing, it will fail. Sad - even
>> >>>> >> stupid -
>> >>>> >> but
>> >>>> >> true.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> > http://www.off-road.com/jeep/jnutter1.htm
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > It gives a sweet 25% 'seat of the pants' power boost and an
>> >>>> >> > 'easy'
>> >>>> >> > 10
>> >>>> >> > mph extra per gear.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > The mechanic's reasoning is the NOx will blow out or the timing
>> >>>> >> > will
>> >>>> >> > have to be too far back to pass.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > The Jeep numbers for an 89 YJ 4.2 in California are 875 NOx on
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > ASM
>> >>>> >> > 2525 test I was told.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > I found my 2003 ASM 2525 emissions papers for my Canadian 1986
>> >>>> >> > CJ7
>> >>>> >> > that
>> >>>> >> > I
>> >>>> >> > disabled the computer in.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Specs.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > - 1986 Canadian CJ7 4.2L, Likely 60,000 original miles on it.
>> >>>> >> > - 'No' Catalytic converter (not needed in Canada)
>> >>>> >> > - 2" straight pipe with a high flow Dynomax turbo muffler.
>> >>>> >> > - No computer, 'Nuttered'
>> >>>> >> > - Base timing set at 9 deg BTDC with the vacuum line off like
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > book
>> >>>> >> > says for a non computer engine. (If I go with the higher RPM
>> >>>> >> > setting of
>> >>>> >> > full advance the sticker on a YJ says, I end up with 6 or 7
>> >>>> >> > deg.
>> >>>> >> > BTDC
>> >>>> >> > base and I find that too boggy for power so I even have room to
>> >>>> >> > play
>> >>>> >> > there.)
>> >>>> >> > - 92 octane ESSO gas.
>> >>>> >> > - Ported on the timing advance
>> >>>> >> > - Stock BBD carb set to 'best lean idle' and always a fresh
>> >>>> >> > $20.00
>> >>>> >> > rebuild kit for the test.
>> >>>> >> > - Accel Supercoil for hot spark with Champion plugs and OEM
>> >>>> >> > wires.
>> >>>> >> > - Strong pull up to 4400 rpm, then falls flat.
>> >>>> >> > - 11L/100km or something like 23 US mpg highway
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On the ASM 2525 test I got 589 NOx!!!!!.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And 16 ppm HC
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And 0.11% CO
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Photo of the papers here:
>> >>>> >> > http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=4290636987
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And a post on alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4 with the JPG
>> >>>> >> > photo
>> >>>> >> > of the
>> >>>> >> > paperwork.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Not a fluke, I killed the computer in 2000, this 2003 one was
>> >>>> >> > just
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > only year they actually put the NOx reading on because I don't
>> >>>> >> > have to
>> >>>> >> > pass that.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And the best part is I have passed the last test it ever will
>> >>>> >> > need! It
>> >>>> >> > becomes too old before the next one.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Mike
>> >>>> >> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> >>>> >> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
04-18-2005, 07:44 PM
#87
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1986 'Nuttered' CJ7 4.2L Canadian Emissions Data
I'm in Kingston 3.5 hrs east of t.o
well i know my jeep doesn't go that fast.
feels like it could with some tuning but right now it can't.
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4263AFAD.5C0E9B9E@sympatico.ca...
> Crap man, where do you live?
>
> I am in Toronto and am home most days with more than half a clue how to
> set them up for our 'Canadian' emissions pass. I can't do much work,
> but I can sure still point....
>
> My CJ7 goes like a scalded cat! It lights up my 33's too easy from a
> start, I pull really fast to 50 mph in 2nd gear hitting about 4400 rpm,
> 3rd gear pulls hard up to 75 mph, 4th will bury the speedo and I have
> 'no' freakin' urge to find out how fast 5th will go.....
>
> And my readings are below.
>
> Mike
>
> u know who wrote:
>>
>> hi according the to gov of Ontario emissions pamphlet.
>> I must have a diagnostic performed by authorized fix place.
>> then according to there diagnostic sheet of probable causes I can do the
>> repairs according to only what is on the list up to the repair cost
>> limit. I
>> must keep all receipts and the diagnostic list to show as proof. but only
>> I
>> or the garage that did the test can work on my car to count toward the
>> limit.
>> I would get more bang for my buck if I do the work than paying them to do
>> it.
>>
>> so couple of questions what happens when you have spent your 450 and then
>> go
>> back 2 yrs later and you fail again and the list of repairs have been
>> done
>> but ya still fail. oh and what happens when parts are no longer
>> available
>> from any source to fix emissions components which I have all ready run
>> into.
>> carbed jeeps rarely pass emissions and if they do they are so leaned out
>> that ya can't drive them.
>> next year the Howell fuel injection set up. I have already spoken to them
>> and there off road kit meets regular emission requirements other than
>> cali.
>> plus the increase in fuel economy will make it worth it.
>>
>> so cause they put the wrong engine I should get a free re test eh well
>> I'll
>> try it and see.
>>
>> now I'm starting to see why the guy sold this jeep.
>> still not deterred though just fed up with gov.
>>
>> well I will be paying 170 for diagnostics that include carb and timing
>> adjustments, as well as emission components check.and they have the jeep
>> for
>> the entire day.
>> that's got to be worth something there.
>>
>> "Snow" <snowbal@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> news:9bb8e.26813$8i6.1037704@news20.bellglobal.com ...
>> > You might get burned on the theory of have the diagnostic tell you
>> > whats
>> > wrong and then do the work yourself. If you live here in the Land of
>> > "Dalton I'm dumber then rock M'ginty" (Ontario). You will need to
>> > show
>> > any and all work was preformed by an authorized repair facility in
>> > order
>> > to meet the cap quota. If you do $350.00 dollars of repairs on your
>> > own
>> > before the retest and still fail that $350.00 WON"T count towards the
>> > cap
>> > (about $550.00 IIRC).
>> >
>> > Also that cap is good for one time only, the first time a vehicle fails
>> > it
>> > has a repair cap and it will be granted a conditional pass (one time
>> > only)
>> > subsequent fails the vehicle is to be fixed until it passes.
>> >
>> > Two tests ago my 93 XJ fail, here is a breakdown of the repair charges
>> > by
>> > Cambodian Tire.
>> > Diagnostic $100.00
>> > O2 sensor $ 80.00
>> > Oil Change $ 15.00 (this was oil only)
>> > Air/Oil/Fuel filter $50.00 (filters only)
>> > Labour $145.00 ($60/hr)
>> > Total $390.00
>> >
>> > The cap was $500 as the test had been established in my area for
>> > sometime.
>> > The Cherokee still failed the retest after all that was done. The last
>> > thing the Tech. did before retesting was the oil change (cost about
>> > $20)
>> > main reason he did this was the next step in the T/S was to change the
>> > cat. $370.00 still allowed him to change the cat, $390.00 ment that
>> > repair
>> > would put me over the cap and he couldn't do it.
>> >
>> > I asked thenif I were to do the work (change the sensor) and return
>> > with
>> > it would they retest it, No problem, but if it still failed I would
>> > have
>> > to prove that a authorized shop fixed it otherwise I would still have
>> > that
>> > $500 cap, if an authorized shop fixed their charges would be deducted
>> > from
>> > the cap total and I would have the remaining still to spend.
>> >
>> > Snow...
>> >
>> > "u know who" <wraithyneon@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> > news:C908e.26607$8i6.969093@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
>> >> ya extortion test that's a good name for it.
>> >> it appears my egr is broken as the swivel vacuum nipple seems to be
>> >> bent
>> >> and the housing of where the vacuum nipple sits is cracked and broken.
>> >>
>> >> I'm going to pay for the diagnostics test then take the
>> >> recommendations
>> >> and do the work myself and keep a folder with receipts. then take it
>> >> back
>> >> for the retest once I hit my limit. and also at that point I will have
>> >> my
>> >> new egr and whatever else they recommend as well as my nutter bypass
>> >> and
>> >> 3 ounces of acetone added to the fuel.
>> >>
>> >> On my e test they put that I have a 4.0L.
>> >> On my asm2525 test my NO ppm was 3677 timing was way to advanced limit
>> >> was 893. And curb idle test HC ppm was 325 limit was 200.reason idle
>> >> to
>> >> high and mixture screws set to rich. also CO% was 1.03 missed a pass
>> >> by
>> >> .04
>> >>
>> >> well at least I can assume that I should pass next time as the jeep
>> >> was
>> >> so out of tune. reason for being out of tune I found a bad vacuum leak
>> >> and never adjusted the carb to reflect the stopped vacuum leak.
>> >>
>> >> been so long since I played with a carbed equipped veh. and the fact
>> >> that
>> >> it is also computer controlled sucks. which basically means that some
>> >> of
>> >> my adjustment can be over ruled by the computer.
>> >>
>> >> alwell
>> >>
>> >> keep fingers crossed for Tuesday. diagnostic day.
>> >> the retest down the road.
>> >> not so bad cause ministry issued me real plates even though it was a
>> >> resale change of ownership. so theoretically I don't require a test
>> >> till
>> >> my plate renewal.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >> news:42607229.7E0A03D7@sympatico.ca...
>> >>> Oh, you can usually clean the EGR's out. Carbon is an issue and for
>> >>> sure you need one working to pass the sniffer.
>> >>>
>> >>> Mike
>> >>>
>> >>> u know who wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> hmmmmm
>> >>>> I read the nutter instructions sounds like this will have to be
>> >>>> something
>> >>>> that I will have to do to my 89yj as it will not pass emissions
>> >>>> the sad part is it was recommended that I may need a evap canister
>> >>>> guess
>> >>>> what no longer available anywhere.
>> >>>> government sucks
>> >>>>
>> >>>> if I fail then 450$ conditional pass, then 650$ ever 2 years really
>> >>>> sucks
>> >>>> I know I still need an egr though.
>> >>>> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >>>> news:42605772.F0571EA0@sympatico.ca...
>> >>>> > All the junk can be left in place. It only requires 2 new wires
>> >>>> > from
>> >>>> > the ignition module to the distributor that fit inside the loom.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > You then just set the carb mix and timing. That's it!
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > If you have to put it back, it is only 2 wires to change.....
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Mike
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Jeff Strickland wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >>>> >> news:42604598.8FE80D28@sympatico.ca...
>> >>>> >> > Well after arguing myself blue with a 'mechanic' that says no
>> >>>> >> > way
>> >>>> >> > a
>> >>>> >> > Jeep
>> >>>> >> > with a carb can pass emissions in California if you disable the
>> >>>> >> > emissions computer or do a 'Nutter' on it after the first guy I
>> >>>> >> > think
>> >>>> >> > to
>> >>>> >> > put the directions online:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> The problem is, in Calif., the system has to physically be
>> >>>> >> installed. I
>> >>>> >> don't know what the bypass entails, but if stuff is removed, then
>> >>>> >> the
>> >>>> >> vehicle fails because of the visual inspection that comes before
>> >>>> >> the
>> >>>> >> sniff
>> >>>> >> test.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> There is considerable irony here, the bypass can conceivably
>> >>>> >> result
>> >>>> >> in
>> >>>> >> better performance with the sniffer, but because the system
>> >>>> >> hasn't
>> >>>> >> got
>> >>>> >> all
>> >>>> >> of the components, it automatically fails. The vehicle can spit
>> >>>> >> out
>> >>>> >> better
>> >>>> >> numbers, but if the parts are missing, it will fail. Sad - even
>> >>>> >> stupid -
>> >>>> >> but
>> >>>> >> true.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> > http://www.off-road.com/jeep/jnutter1.htm
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > It gives a sweet 25% 'seat of the pants' power boost and an
>> >>>> >> > 'easy'
>> >>>> >> > 10
>> >>>> >> > mph extra per gear.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > The mechanic's reasoning is the NOx will blow out or the timing
>> >>>> >> > will
>> >>>> >> > have to be too far back to pass.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > The Jeep numbers for an 89 YJ 4.2 in California are 875 NOx on
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > ASM
>> >>>> >> > 2525 test I was told.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > I found my 2003 ASM 2525 emissions papers for my Canadian 1986
>> >>>> >> > CJ7
>> >>>> >> > that
>> >>>> >> > I
>> >>>> >> > disabled the computer in.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Specs.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > - 1986 Canadian CJ7 4.2L, Likely 60,000 original miles on it.
>> >>>> >> > - 'No' Catalytic converter (not needed in Canada)
>> >>>> >> > - 2" straight pipe with a high flow Dynomax turbo muffler.
>> >>>> >> > - No computer, 'Nuttered'
>> >>>> >> > - Base timing set at 9 deg BTDC with the vacuum line off like
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > book
>> >>>> >> > says for a non computer engine. (If I go with the higher RPM
>> >>>> >> > setting of
>> >>>> >> > full advance the sticker on a YJ says, I end up with 6 or 7
>> >>>> >> > deg.
>> >>>> >> > BTDC
>> >>>> >> > base and I find that too boggy for power so I even have room to
>> >>>> >> > play
>> >>>> >> > there.)
>> >>>> >> > - 92 octane ESSO gas.
>> >>>> >> > - Ported on the timing advance
>> >>>> >> > - Stock BBD carb set to 'best lean idle' and always a fresh
>> >>>> >> > $20.00
>> >>>> >> > rebuild kit for the test.
>> >>>> >> > - Accel Supercoil for hot spark with Champion plugs and OEM
>> >>>> >> > wires.
>> >>>> >> > - Strong pull up to 4400 rpm, then falls flat.
>> >>>> >> > - 11L/100km or something like 23 US mpg highway
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On the ASM 2525 test I got 589 NOx!!!!!.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And 16 ppm HC
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And 0.11% CO
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Photo of the papers here:
>> >>>> >> > http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=4290636987
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And a post on alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4 with the JPG
>> >>>> >> > photo
>> >>>> >> > of the
>> >>>> >> > paperwork.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Not a fluke, I killed the computer in 2000, this 2003 one was
>> >>>> >> > just
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > only year they actually put the NOx reading on because I don't
>> >>>> >> > have to
>> >>>> >> > pass that.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And the best part is I have passed the last test it ever will
>> >>>> >> > need! It
>> >>>> >> > becomes too old before the next one.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Mike
>> >>>> >> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> >>>> >> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
well i know my jeep doesn't go that fast.
feels like it could with some tuning but right now it can't.
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4263AFAD.5C0E9B9E@sympatico.ca...
> Crap man, where do you live?
>
> I am in Toronto and am home most days with more than half a clue how to
> set them up for our 'Canadian' emissions pass. I can't do much work,
> but I can sure still point....
>
> My CJ7 goes like a scalded cat! It lights up my 33's too easy from a
> start, I pull really fast to 50 mph in 2nd gear hitting about 4400 rpm,
> 3rd gear pulls hard up to 75 mph, 4th will bury the speedo and I have
> 'no' freakin' urge to find out how fast 5th will go.....
>
> And my readings are below.
>
> Mike
>
> u know who wrote:
>>
>> hi according the to gov of Ontario emissions pamphlet.
>> I must have a diagnostic performed by authorized fix place.
>> then according to there diagnostic sheet of probable causes I can do the
>> repairs according to only what is on the list up to the repair cost
>> limit. I
>> must keep all receipts and the diagnostic list to show as proof. but only
>> I
>> or the garage that did the test can work on my car to count toward the
>> limit.
>> I would get more bang for my buck if I do the work than paying them to do
>> it.
>>
>> so couple of questions what happens when you have spent your 450 and then
>> go
>> back 2 yrs later and you fail again and the list of repairs have been
>> done
>> but ya still fail. oh and what happens when parts are no longer
>> available
>> from any source to fix emissions components which I have all ready run
>> into.
>> carbed jeeps rarely pass emissions and if they do they are so leaned out
>> that ya can't drive them.
>> next year the Howell fuel injection set up. I have already spoken to them
>> and there off road kit meets regular emission requirements other than
>> cali.
>> plus the increase in fuel economy will make it worth it.
>>
>> so cause they put the wrong engine I should get a free re test eh well
>> I'll
>> try it and see.
>>
>> now I'm starting to see why the guy sold this jeep.
>> still not deterred though just fed up with gov.
>>
>> well I will be paying 170 for diagnostics that include carb and timing
>> adjustments, as well as emission components check.and they have the jeep
>> for
>> the entire day.
>> that's got to be worth something there.
>>
>> "Snow" <snowbal@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> news:9bb8e.26813$8i6.1037704@news20.bellglobal.com ...
>> > You might get burned on the theory of have the diagnostic tell you
>> > whats
>> > wrong and then do the work yourself. If you live here in the Land of
>> > "Dalton I'm dumber then rock M'ginty" (Ontario). You will need to
>> > show
>> > any and all work was preformed by an authorized repair facility in
>> > order
>> > to meet the cap quota. If you do $350.00 dollars of repairs on your
>> > own
>> > before the retest and still fail that $350.00 WON"T count towards the
>> > cap
>> > (about $550.00 IIRC).
>> >
>> > Also that cap is good for one time only, the first time a vehicle fails
>> > it
>> > has a repair cap and it will be granted a conditional pass (one time
>> > only)
>> > subsequent fails the vehicle is to be fixed until it passes.
>> >
>> > Two tests ago my 93 XJ fail, here is a breakdown of the repair charges
>> > by
>> > Cambodian Tire.
>> > Diagnostic $100.00
>> > O2 sensor $ 80.00
>> > Oil Change $ 15.00 (this was oil only)
>> > Air/Oil/Fuel filter $50.00 (filters only)
>> > Labour $145.00 ($60/hr)
>> > Total $390.00
>> >
>> > The cap was $500 as the test had been established in my area for
>> > sometime.
>> > The Cherokee still failed the retest after all that was done. The last
>> > thing the Tech. did before retesting was the oil change (cost about
>> > $20)
>> > main reason he did this was the next step in the T/S was to change the
>> > cat. $370.00 still allowed him to change the cat, $390.00 ment that
>> > repair
>> > would put me over the cap and he couldn't do it.
>> >
>> > I asked thenif I were to do the work (change the sensor) and return
>> > with
>> > it would they retest it, No problem, but if it still failed I would
>> > have
>> > to prove that a authorized shop fixed it otherwise I would still have
>> > that
>> > $500 cap, if an authorized shop fixed their charges would be deducted
>> > from
>> > the cap total and I would have the remaining still to spend.
>> >
>> > Snow...
>> >
>> > "u know who" <wraithyneon@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> > news:C908e.26607$8i6.969093@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
>> >> ya extortion test that's a good name for it.
>> >> it appears my egr is broken as the swivel vacuum nipple seems to be
>> >> bent
>> >> and the housing of where the vacuum nipple sits is cracked and broken.
>> >>
>> >> I'm going to pay for the diagnostics test then take the
>> >> recommendations
>> >> and do the work myself and keep a folder with receipts. then take it
>> >> back
>> >> for the retest once I hit my limit. and also at that point I will have
>> >> my
>> >> new egr and whatever else they recommend as well as my nutter bypass
>> >> and
>> >> 3 ounces of acetone added to the fuel.
>> >>
>> >> On my e test they put that I have a 4.0L.
>> >> On my asm2525 test my NO ppm was 3677 timing was way to advanced limit
>> >> was 893. And curb idle test HC ppm was 325 limit was 200.reason idle
>> >> to
>> >> high and mixture screws set to rich. also CO% was 1.03 missed a pass
>> >> by
>> >> .04
>> >>
>> >> well at least I can assume that I should pass next time as the jeep
>> >> was
>> >> so out of tune. reason for being out of tune I found a bad vacuum leak
>> >> and never adjusted the carb to reflect the stopped vacuum leak.
>> >>
>> >> been so long since I played with a carbed equipped veh. and the fact
>> >> that
>> >> it is also computer controlled sucks. which basically means that some
>> >> of
>> >> my adjustment can be over ruled by the computer.
>> >>
>> >> alwell
>> >>
>> >> keep fingers crossed for Tuesday. diagnostic day.
>> >> the retest down the road.
>> >> not so bad cause ministry issued me real plates even though it was a
>> >> resale change of ownership. so theoretically I don't require a test
>> >> till
>> >> my plate renewal.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >> news:42607229.7E0A03D7@sympatico.ca...
>> >>> Oh, you can usually clean the EGR's out. Carbon is an issue and for
>> >>> sure you need one working to pass the sniffer.
>> >>>
>> >>> Mike
>> >>>
>> >>> u know who wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> hmmmmm
>> >>>> I read the nutter instructions sounds like this will have to be
>> >>>> something
>> >>>> that I will have to do to my 89yj as it will not pass emissions
>> >>>> the sad part is it was recommended that I may need a evap canister
>> >>>> guess
>> >>>> what no longer available anywhere.
>> >>>> government sucks
>> >>>>
>> >>>> if I fail then 450$ conditional pass, then 650$ ever 2 years really
>> >>>> sucks
>> >>>> I know I still need an egr though.
>> >>>> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >>>> news:42605772.F0571EA0@sympatico.ca...
>> >>>> > All the junk can be left in place. It only requires 2 new wires
>> >>>> > from
>> >>>> > the ignition module to the distributor that fit inside the loom.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > You then just set the carb mix and timing. That's it!
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > If you have to put it back, it is only 2 wires to change.....
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Mike
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Jeff Strickland wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >>>> >> news:42604598.8FE80D28@sympatico.ca...
>> >>>> >> > Well after arguing myself blue with a 'mechanic' that says no
>> >>>> >> > way
>> >>>> >> > a
>> >>>> >> > Jeep
>> >>>> >> > with a carb can pass emissions in California if you disable the
>> >>>> >> > emissions computer or do a 'Nutter' on it after the first guy I
>> >>>> >> > think
>> >>>> >> > to
>> >>>> >> > put the directions online:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> The problem is, in Calif., the system has to physically be
>> >>>> >> installed. I
>> >>>> >> don't know what the bypass entails, but if stuff is removed, then
>> >>>> >> the
>> >>>> >> vehicle fails because of the visual inspection that comes before
>> >>>> >> the
>> >>>> >> sniff
>> >>>> >> test.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> There is considerable irony here, the bypass can conceivably
>> >>>> >> result
>> >>>> >> in
>> >>>> >> better performance with the sniffer, but because the system
>> >>>> >> hasn't
>> >>>> >> got
>> >>>> >> all
>> >>>> >> of the components, it automatically fails. The vehicle can spit
>> >>>> >> out
>> >>>> >> better
>> >>>> >> numbers, but if the parts are missing, it will fail. Sad - even
>> >>>> >> stupid -
>> >>>> >> but
>> >>>> >> true.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> > http://www.off-road.com/jeep/jnutter1.htm
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > It gives a sweet 25% 'seat of the pants' power boost and an
>> >>>> >> > 'easy'
>> >>>> >> > 10
>> >>>> >> > mph extra per gear.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > The mechanic's reasoning is the NOx will blow out or the timing
>> >>>> >> > will
>> >>>> >> > have to be too far back to pass.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > The Jeep numbers for an 89 YJ 4.2 in California are 875 NOx on
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > ASM
>> >>>> >> > 2525 test I was told.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > I found my 2003 ASM 2525 emissions papers for my Canadian 1986
>> >>>> >> > CJ7
>> >>>> >> > that
>> >>>> >> > I
>> >>>> >> > disabled the computer in.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Specs.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > - 1986 Canadian CJ7 4.2L, Likely 60,000 original miles on it.
>> >>>> >> > - 'No' Catalytic converter (not needed in Canada)
>> >>>> >> > - 2" straight pipe with a high flow Dynomax turbo muffler.
>> >>>> >> > - No computer, 'Nuttered'
>> >>>> >> > - Base timing set at 9 deg BTDC with the vacuum line off like
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > book
>> >>>> >> > says for a non computer engine. (If I go with the higher RPM
>> >>>> >> > setting of
>> >>>> >> > full advance the sticker on a YJ says, I end up with 6 or 7
>> >>>> >> > deg.
>> >>>> >> > BTDC
>> >>>> >> > base and I find that too boggy for power so I even have room to
>> >>>> >> > play
>> >>>> >> > there.)
>> >>>> >> > - 92 octane ESSO gas.
>> >>>> >> > - Ported on the timing advance
>> >>>> >> > - Stock BBD carb set to 'best lean idle' and always a fresh
>> >>>> >> > $20.00
>> >>>> >> > rebuild kit for the test.
>> >>>> >> > - Accel Supercoil for hot spark with Champion plugs and OEM
>> >>>> >> > wires.
>> >>>> >> > - Strong pull up to 4400 rpm, then falls flat.
>> >>>> >> > - 11L/100km or something like 23 US mpg highway
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On the ASM 2525 test I got 589 NOx!!!!!.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And 16 ppm HC
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And 0.11% CO
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Photo of the papers here:
>> >>>> >> > http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=4290636987
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And a post on alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4 with the JPG
>> >>>> >> > photo
>> >>>> >> > of the
>> >>>> >> > paperwork.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Not a fluke, I killed the computer in 2000, this 2003 one was
>> >>>> >> > just
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > only year they actually put the NOx reading on because I don't
>> >>>> >> > have to
>> >>>> >> > pass that.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And the best part is I have passed the last test it ever will
>> >>>> >> > need! It
>> >>>> >> > becomes too old before the next one.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Mike
>> >>>> >> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> >>>> >> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
04-18-2005, 07:44 PM
#88
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1986 'Nuttered' CJ7 4.2L Canadian Emissions Data
I'm in Kingston 3.5 hrs east of t.o
well i know my jeep doesn't go that fast.
feels like it could with some tuning but right now it can't.
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4263AFAD.5C0E9B9E@sympatico.ca...
> Crap man, where do you live?
>
> I am in Toronto and am home most days with more than half a clue how to
> set them up for our 'Canadian' emissions pass. I can't do much work,
> but I can sure still point....
>
> My CJ7 goes like a scalded cat! It lights up my 33's too easy from a
> start, I pull really fast to 50 mph in 2nd gear hitting about 4400 rpm,
> 3rd gear pulls hard up to 75 mph, 4th will bury the speedo and I have
> 'no' freakin' urge to find out how fast 5th will go.....
>
> And my readings are below.
>
> Mike
>
> u know who wrote:
>>
>> hi according the to gov of Ontario emissions pamphlet.
>> I must have a diagnostic performed by authorized fix place.
>> then according to there diagnostic sheet of probable causes I can do the
>> repairs according to only what is on the list up to the repair cost
>> limit. I
>> must keep all receipts and the diagnostic list to show as proof. but only
>> I
>> or the garage that did the test can work on my car to count toward the
>> limit.
>> I would get more bang for my buck if I do the work than paying them to do
>> it.
>>
>> so couple of questions what happens when you have spent your 450 and then
>> go
>> back 2 yrs later and you fail again and the list of repairs have been
>> done
>> but ya still fail. oh and what happens when parts are no longer
>> available
>> from any source to fix emissions components which I have all ready run
>> into.
>> carbed jeeps rarely pass emissions and if they do they are so leaned out
>> that ya can't drive them.
>> next year the Howell fuel injection set up. I have already spoken to them
>> and there off road kit meets regular emission requirements other than
>> cali.
>> plus the increase in fuel economy will make it worth it.
>>
>> so cause they put the wrong engine I should get a free re test eh well
>> I'll
>> try it and see.
>>
>> now I'm starting to see why the guy sold this jeep.
>> still not deterred though just fed up with gov.
>>
>> well I will be paying 170 for diagnostics that include carb and timing
>> adjustments, as well as emission components check.and they have the jeep
>> for
>> the entire day.
>> that's got to be worth something there.
>>
>> "Snow" <snowbal@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> news:9bb8e.26813$8i6.1037704@news20.bellglobal.com ...
>> > You might get burned on the theory of have the diagnostic tell you
>> > whats
>> > wrong and then do the work yourself. If you live here in the Land of
>> > "Dalton I'm dumber then rock M'ginty" (Ontario). You will need to
>> > show
>> > any and all work was preformed by an authorized repair facility in
>> > order
>> > to meet the cap quota. If you do $350.00 dollars of repairs on your
>> > own
>> > before the retest and still fail that $350.00 WON"T count towards the
>> > cap
>> > (about $550.00 IIRC).
>> >
>> > Also that cap is good for one time only, the first time a vehicle fails
>> > it
>> > has a repair cap and it will be granted a conditional pass (one time
>> > only)
>> > subsequent fails the vehicle is to be fixed until it passes.
>> >
>> > Two tests ago my 93 XJ fail, here is a breakdown of the repair charges
>> > by
>> > Cambodian Tire.
>> > Diagnostic $100.00
>> > O2 sensor $ 80.00
>> > Oil Change $ 15.00 (this was oil only)
>> > Air/Oil/Fuel filter $50.00 (filters only)
>> > Labour $145.00 ($60/hr)
>> > Total $390.00
>> >
>> > The cap was $500 as the test had been established in my area for
>> > sometime.
>> > The Cherokee still failed the retest after all that was done. The last
>> > thing the Tech. did before retesting was the oil change (cost about
>> > $20)
>> > main reason he did this was the next step in the T/S was to change the
>> > cat. $370.00 still allowed him to change the cat, $390.00 ment that
>> > repair
>> > would put me over the cap and he couldn't do it.
>> >
>> > I asked thenif I were to do the work (change the sensor) and return
>> > with
>> > it would they retest it, No problem, but if it still failed I would
>> > have
>> > to prove that a authorized shop fixed it otherwise I would still have
>> > that
>> > $500 cap, if an authorized shop fixed their charges would be deducted
>> > from
>> > the cap total and I would have the remaining still to spend.
>> >
>> > Snow...
>> >
>> > "u know who" <wraithyneon@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> > news:C908e.26607$8i6.969093@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
>> >> ya extortion test that's a good name for it.
>> >> it appears my egr is broken as the swivel vacuum nipple seems to be
>> >> bent
>> >> and the housing of where the vacuum nipple sits is cracked and broken.
>> >>
>> >> I'm going to pay for the diagnostics test then take the
>> >> recommendations
>> >> and do the work myself and keep a folder with receipts. then take it
>> >> back
>> >> for the retest once I hit my limit. and also at that point I will have
>> >> my
>> >> new egr and whatever else they recommend as well as my nutter bypass
>> >> and
>> >> 3 ounces of acetone added to the fuel.
>> >>
>> >> On my e test they put that I have a 4.0L.
>> >> On my asm2525 test my NO ppm was 3677 timing was way to advanced limit
>> >> was 893. And curb idle test HC ppm was 325 limit was 200.reason idle
>> >> to
>> >> high and mixture screws set to rich. also CO% was 1.03 missed a pass
>> >> by
>> >> .04
>> >>
>> >> well at least I can assume that I should pass next time as the jeep
>> >> was
>> >> so out of tune. reason for being out of tune I found a bad vacuum leak
>> >> and never adjusted the carb to reflect the stopped vacuum leak.
>> >>
>> >> been so long since I played with a carbed equipped veh. and the fact
>> >> that
>> >> it is also computer controlled sucks. which basically means that some
>> >> of
>> >> my adjustment can be over ruled by the computer.
>> >>
>> >> alwell
>> >>
>> >> keep fingers crossed for Tuesday. diagnostic day.
>> >> the retest down the road.
>> >> not so bad cause ministry issued me real plates even though it was a
>> >> resale change of ownership. so theoretically I don't require a test
>> >> till
>> >> my plate renewal.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >> news:42607229.7E0A03D7@sympatico.ca...
>> >>> Oh, you can usually clean the EGR's out. Carbon is an issue and for
>> >>> sure you need one working to pass the sniffer.
>> >>>
>> >>> Mike
>> >>>
>> >>> u know who wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> hmmmmm
>> >>>> I read the nutter instructions sounds like this will have to be
>> >>>> something
>> >>>> that I will have to do to my 89yj as it will not pass emissions
>> >>>> the sad part is it was recommended that I may need a evap canister
>> >>>> guess
>> >>>> what no longer available anywhere.
>> >>>> government sucks
>> >>>>
>> >>>> if I fail then 450$ conditional pass, then 650$ ever 2 years really
>> >>>> sucks
>> >>>> I know I still need an egr though.
>> >>>> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >>>> news:42605772.F0571EA0@sympatico.ca...
>> >>>> > All the junk can be left in place. It only requires 2 new wires
>> >>>> > from
>> >>>> > the ignition module to the distributor that fit inside the loom.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > You then just set the carb mix and timing. That's it!
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > If you have to put it back, it is only 2 wires to change.....
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Mike
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Jeff Strickland wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >>>> >> news:42604598.8FE80D28@sympatico.ca...
>> >>>> >> > Well after arguing myself blue with a 'mechanic' that says no
>> >>>> >> > way
>> >>>> >> > a
>> >>>> >> > Jeep
>> >>>> >> > with a carb can pass emissions in California if you disable the
>> >>>> >> > emissions computer or do a 'Nutter' on it after the first guy I
>> >>>> >> > think
>> >>>> >> > to
>> >>>> >> > put the directions online:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> The problem is, in Calif., the system has to physically be
>> >>>> >> installed. I
>> >>>> >> don't know what the bypass entails, but if stuff is removed, then
>> >>>> >> the
>> >>>> >> vehicle fails because of the visual inspection that comes before
>> >>>> >> the
>> >>>> >> sniff
>> >>>> >> test.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> There is considerable irony here, the bypass can conceivably
>> >>>> >> result
>> >>>> >> in
>> >>>> >> better performance with the sniffer, but because the system
>> >>>> >> hasn't
>> >>>> >> got
>> >>>> >> all
>> >>>> >> of the components, it automatically fails. The vehicle can spit
>> >>>> >> out
>> >>>> >> better
>> >>>> >> numbers, but if the parts are missing, it will fail. Sad - even
>> >>>> >> stupid -
>> >>>> >> but
>> >>>> >> true.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> > http://www.off-road.com/jeep/jnutter1.htm
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > It gives a sweet 25% 'seat of the pants' power boost and an
>> >>>> >> > 'easy'
>> >>>> >> > 10
>> >>>> >> > mph extra per gear.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > The mechanic's reasoning is the NOx will blow out or the timing
>> >>>> >> > will
>> >>>> >> > have to be too far back to pass.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > The Jeep numbers for an 89 YJ 4.2 in California are 875 NOx on
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > ASM
>> >>>> >> > 2525 test I was told.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > I found my 2003 ASM 2525 emissions papers for my Canadian 1986
>> >>>> >> > CJ7
>> >>>> >> > that
>> >>>> >> > I
>> >>>> >> > disabled the computer in.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Specs.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > - 1986 Canadian CJ7 4.2L, Likely 60,000 original miles on it.
>> >>>> >> > - 'No' Catalytic converter (not needed in Canada)
>> >>>> >> > - 2" straight pipe with a high flow Dynomax turbo muffler.
>> >>>> >> > - No computer, 'Nuttered'
>> >>>> >> > - Base timing set at 9 deg BTDC with the vacuum line off like
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > book
>> >>>> >> > says for a non computer engine. (If I go with the higher RPM
>> >>>> >> > setting of
>> >>>> >> > full advance the sticker on a YJ says, I end up with 6 or 7
>> >>>> >> > deg.
>> >>>> >> > BTDC
>> >>>> >> > base and I find that too boggy for power so I even have room to
>> >>>> >> > play
>> >>>> >> > there.)
>> >>>> >> > - 92 octane ESSO gas.
>> >>>> >> > - Ported on the timing advance
>> >>>> >> > - Stock BBD carb set to 'best lean idle' and always a fresh
>> >>>> >> > $20.00
>> >>>> >> > rebuild kit for the test.
>> >>>> >> > - Accel Supercoil for hot spark with Champion plugs and OEM
>> >>>> >> > wires.
>> >>>> >> > - Strong pull up to 4400 rpm, then falls flat.
>> >>>> >> > - 11L/100km or something like 23 US mpg highway
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On the ASM 2525 test I got 589 NOx!!!!!.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And 16 ppm HC
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And 0.11% CO
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Photo of the papers here:
>> >>>> >> > http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=4290636987
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And a post on alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4 with the JPG
>> >>>> >> > photo
>> >>>> >> > of the
>> >>>> >> > paperwork.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Not a fluke, I killed the computer in 2000, this 2003 one was
>> >>>> >> > just
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > only year they actually put the NOx reading on because I don't
>> >>>> >> > have to
>> >>>> >> > pass that.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And the best part is I have passed the last test it ever will
>> >>>> >> > need! It
>> >>>> >> > becomes too old before the next one.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Mike
>> >>>> >> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> >>>> >> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
well i know my jeep doesn't go that fast.
feels like it could with some tuning but right now it can't.
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4263AFAD.5C0E9B9E@sympatico.ca...
> Crap man, where do you live?
>
> I am in Toronto and am home most days with more than half a clue how to
> set them up for our 'Canadian' emissions pass. I can't do much work,
> but I can sure still point....
>
> My CJ7 goes like a scalded cat! It lights up my 33's too easy from a
> start, I pull really fast to 50 mph in 2nd gear hitting about 4400 rpm,
> 3rd gear pulls hard up to 75 mph, 4th will bury the speedo and I have
> 'no' freakin' urge to find out how fast 5th will go.....
>
> And my readings are below.
>
> Mike
>
> u know who wrote:
>>
>> hi according the to gov of Ontario emissions pamphlet.
>> I must have a diagnostic performed by authorized fix place.
>> then according to there diagnostic sheet of probable causes I can do the
>> repairs according to only what is on the list up to the repair cost
>> limit. I
>> must keep all receipts and the diagnostic list to show as proof. but only
>> I
>> or the garage that did the test can work on my car to count toward the
>> limit.
>> I would get more bang for my buck if I do the work than paying them to do
>> it.
>>
>> so couple of questions what happens when you have spent your 450 and then
>> go
>> back 2 yrs later and you fail again and the list of repairs have been
>> done
>> but ya still fail. oh and what happens when parts are no longer
>> available
>> from any source to fix emissions components which I have all ready run
>> into.
>> carbed jeeps rarely pass emissions and if they do they are so leaned out
>> that ya can't drive them.
>> next year the Howell fuel injection set up. I have already spoken to them
>> and there off road kit meets regular emission requirements other than
>> cali.
>> plus the increase in fuel economy will make it worth it.
>>
>> so cause they put the wrong engine I should get a free re test eh well
>> I'll
>> try it and see.
>>
>> now I'm starting to see why the guy sold this jeep.
>> still not deterred though just fed up with gov.
>>
>> well I will be paying 170 for diagnostics that include carb and timing
>> adjustments, as well as emission components check.and they have the jeep
>> for
>> the entire day.
>> that's got to be worth something there.
>>
>> "Snow" <snowbal@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> news:9bb8e.26813$8i6.1037704@news20.bellglobal.com ...
>> > You might get burned on the theory of have the diagnostic tell you
>> > whats
>> > wrong and then do the work yourself. If you live here in the Land of
>> > "Dalton I'm dumber then rock M'ginty" (Ontario). You will need to
>> > show
>> > any and all work was preformed by an authorized repair facility in
>> > order
>> > to meet the cap quota. If you do $350.00 dollars of repairs on your
>> > own
>> > before the retest and still fail that $350.00 WON"T count towards the
>> > cap
>> > (about $550.00 IIRC).
>> >
>> > Also that cap is good for one time only, the first time a vehicle fails
>> > it
>> > has a repair cap and it will be granted a conditional pass (one time
>> > only)
>> > subsequent fails the vehicle is to be fixed until it passes.
>> >
>> > Two tests ago my 93 XJ fail, here is a breakdown of the repair charges
>> > by
>> > Cambodian Tire.
>> > Diagnostic $100.00
>> > O2 sensor $ 80.00
>> > Oil Change $ 15.00 (this was oil only)
>> > Air/Oil/Fuel filter $50.00 (filters only)
>> > Labour $145.00 ($60/hr)
>> > Total $390.00
>> >
>> > The cap was $500 as the test had been established in my area for
>> > sometime.
>> > The Cherokee still failed the retest after all that was done. The last
>> > thing the Tech. did before retesting was the oil change (cost about
>> > $20)
>> > main reason he did this was the next step in the T/S was to change the
>> > cat. $370.00 still allowed him to change the cat, $390.00 ment that
>> > repair
>> > would put me over the cap and he couldn't do it.
>> >
>> > I asked thenif I were to do the work (change the sensor) and return
>> > with
>> > it would they retest it, No problem, but if it still failed I would
>> > have
>> > to prove that a authorized shop fixed it otherwise I would still have
>> > that
>> > $500 cap, if an authorized shop fixed their charges would be deducted
>> > from
>> > the cap total and I would have the remaining still to spend.
>> >
>> > Snow...
>> >
>> > "u know who" <wraithyneon@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> > news:C908e.26607$8i6.969093@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
>> >> ya extortion test that's a good name for it.
>> >> it appears my egr is broken as the swivel vacuum nipple seems to be
>> >> bent
>> >> and the housing of where the vacuum nipple sits is cracked and broken.
>> >>
>> >> I'm going to pay for the diagnostics test then take the
>> >> recommendations
>> >> and do the work myself and keep a folder with receipts. then take it
>> >> back
>> >> for the retest once I hit my limit. and also at that point I will have
>> >> my
>> >> new egr and whatever else they recommend as well as my nutter bypass
>> >> and
>> >> 3 ounces of acetone added to the fuel.
>> >>
>> >> On my e test they put that I have a 4.0L.
>> >> On my asm2525 test my NO ppm was 3677 timing was way to advanced limit
>> >> was 893. And curb idle test HC ppm was 325 limit was 200.reason idle
>> >> to
>> >> high and mixture screws set to rich. also CO% was 1.03 missed a pass
>> >> by
>> >> .04
>> >>
>> >> well at least I can assume that I should pass next time as the jeep
>> >> was
>> >> so out of tune. reason for being out of tune I found a bad vacuum leak
>> >> and never adjusted the carb to reflect the stopped vacuum leak.
>> >>
>> >> been so long since I played with a carbed equipped veh. and the fact
>> >> that
>> >> it is also computer controlled sucks. which basically means that some
>> >> of
>> >> my adjustment can be over ruled by the computer.
>> >>
>> >> alwell
>> >>
>> >> keep fingers crossed for Tuesday. diagnostic day.
>> >> the retest down the road.
>> >> not so bad cause ministry issued me real plates even though it was a
>> >> resale change of ownership. so theoretically I don't require a test
>> >> till
>> >> my plate renewal.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >> news:42607229.7E0A03D7@sympatico.ca...
>> >>> Oh, you can usually clean the EGR's out. Carbon is an issue and for
>> >>> sure you need one working to pass the sniffer.
>> >>>
>> >>> Mike
>> >>>
>> >>> u know who wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> hmmmmm
>> >>>> I read the nutter instructions sounds like this will have to be
>> >>>> something
>> >>>> that I will have to do to my 89yj as it will not pass emissions
>> >>>> the sad part is it was recommended that I may need a evap canister
>> >>>> guess
>> >>>> what no longer available anywhere.
>> >>>> government sucks
>> >>>>
>> >>>> if I fail then 450$ conditional pass, then 650$ ever 2 years really
>> >>>> sucks
>> >>>> I know I still need an egr though.
>> >>>> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >>>> news:42605772.F0571EA0@sympatico.ca...
>> >>>> > All the junk can be left in place. It only requires 2 new wires
>> >>>> > from
>> >>>> > the ignition module to the distributor that fit inside the loom.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > You then just set the carb mix and timing. That's it!
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > If you have to put it back, it is only 2 wires to change.....
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Mike
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Jeff Strickland wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >>>> >> news:42604598.8FE80D28@sympatico.ca...
>> >>>> >> > Well after arguing myself blue with a 'mechanic' that says no
>> >>>> >> > way
>> >>>> >> > a
>> >>>> >> > Jeep
>> >>>> >> > with a carb can pass emissions in California if you disable the
>> >>>> >> > emissions computer or do a 'Nutter' on it after the first guy I
>> >>>> >> > think
>> >>>> >> > to
>> >>>> >> > put the directions online:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> The problem is, in Calif., the system has to physically be
>> >>>> >> installed. I
>> >>>> >> don't know what the bypass entails, but if stuff is removed, then
>> >>>> >> the
>> >>>> >> vehicle fails because of the visual inspection that comes before
>> >>>> >> the
>> >>>> >> sniff
>> >>>> >> test.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> There is considerable irony here, the bypass can conceivably
>> >>>> >> result
>> >>>> >> in
>> >>>> >> better performance with the sniffer, but because the system
>> >>>> >> hasn't
>> >>>> >> got
>> >>>> >> all
>> >>>> >> of the components, it automatically fails. The vehicle can spit
>> >>>> >> out
>> >>>> >> better
>> >>>> >> numbers, but if the parts are missing, it will fail. Sad - even
>> >>>> >> stupid -
>> >>>> >> but
>> >>>> >> true.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> > http://www.off-road.com/jeep/jnutter1.htm
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > It gives a sweet 25% 'seat of the pants' power boost and an
>> >>>> >> > 'easy'
>> >>>> >> > 10
>> >>>> >> > mph extra per gear.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > The mechanic's reasoning is the NOx will blow out or the timing
>> >>>> >> > will
>> >>>> >> > have to be too far back to pass.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > The Jeep numbers for an 89 YJ 4.2 in California are 875 NOx on
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > ASM
>> >>>> >> > 2525 test I was told.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > I found my 2003 ASM 2525 emissions papers for my Canadian 1986
>> >>>> >> > CJ7
>> >>>> >> > that
>> >>>> >> > I
>> >>>> >> > disabled the computer in.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Specs.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > - 1986 Canadian CJ7 4.2L, Likely 60,000 original miles on it.
>> >>>> >> > - 'No' Catalytic converter (not needed in Canada)
>> >>>> >> > - 2" straight pipe with a high flow Dynomax turbo muffler.
>> >>>> >> > - No computer, 'Nuttered'
>> >>>> >> > - Base timing set at 9 deg BTDC with the vacuum line off like
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > book
>> >>>> >> > says for a non computer engine. (If I go with the higher RPM
>> >>>> >> > setting of
>> >>>> >> > full advance the sticker on a YJ says, I end up with 6 or 7
>> >>>> >> > deg.
>> >>>> >> > BTDC
>> >>>> >> > base and I find that too boggy for power so I even have room to
>> >>>> >> > play
>> >>>> >> > there.)
>> >>>> >> > - 92 octane ESSO gas.
>> >>>> >> > - Ported on the timing advance
>> >>>> >> > - Stock BBD carb set to 'best lean idle' and always a fresh
>> >>>> >> > $20.00
>> >>>> >> > rebuild kit for the test.
>> >>>> >> > - Accel Supercoil for hot spark with Champion plugs and OEM
>> >>>> >> > wires.
>> >>>> >> > - Strong pull up to 4400 rpm, then falls flat.
>> >>>> >> > - 11L/100km or something like 23 US mpg highway
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On the ASM 2525 test I got 589 NOx!!!!!.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And 16 ppm HC
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And 0.11% CO
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Photo of the papers here:
>> >>>> >> > http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=4290636987
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And a post on alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4 with the JPG
>> >>>> >> > photo
>> >>>> >> > of the
>> >>>> >> > paperwork.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Not a fluke, I killed the computer in 2000, this 2003 one was
>> >>>> >> > just
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > only year they actually put the NOx reading on because I don't
>> >>>> >> > have to
>> >>>> >> > pass that.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And the best part is I have passed the last test it ever will
>> >>>> >> > need! It
>> >>>> >> > becomes too old before the next one.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Mike
>> >>>> >> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> >>>> >> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
04-18-2005, 07:44 PM
#89
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1986 'Nuttered' CJ7 4.2L Canadian Emissions Data
I'm in Kingston 3.5 hrs east of t.o
well i know my jeep doesn't go that fast.
feels like it could with some tuning but right now it can't.
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4263AFAD.5C0E9B9E@sympatico.ca...
> Crap man, where do you live?
>
> I am in Toronto and am home most days with more than half a clue how to
> set them up for our 'Canadian' emissions pass. I can't do much work,
> but I can sure still point....
>
> My CJ7 goes like a scalded cat! It lights up my 33's too easy from a
> start, I pull really fast to 50 mph in 2nd gear hitting about 4400 rpm,
> 3rd gear pulls hard up to 75 mph, 4th will bury the speedo and I have
> 'no' freakin' urge to find out how fast 5th will go.....
>
> And my readings are below.
>
> Mike
>
> u know who wrote:
>>
>> hi according the to gov of Ontario emissions pamphlet.
>> I must have a diagnostic performed by authorized fix place.
>> then according to there diagnostic sheet of probable causes I can do the
>> repairs according to only what is on the list up to the repair cost
>> limit. I
>> must keep all receipts and the diagnostic list to show as proof. but only
>> I
>> or the garage that did the test can work on my car to count toward the
>> limit.
>> I would get more bang for my buck if I do the work than paying them to do
>> it.
>>
>> so couple of questions what happens when you have spent your 450 and then
>> go
>> back 2 yrs later and you fail again and the list of repairs have been
>> done
>> but ya still fail. oh and what happens when parts are no longer
>> available
>> from any source to fix emissions components which I have all ready run
>> into.
>> carbed jeeps rarely pass emissions and if they do they are so leaned out
>> that ya can't drive them.
>> next year the Howell fuel injection set up. I have already spoken to them
>> and there off road kit meets regular emission requirements other than
>> cali.
>> plus the increase in fuel economy will make it worth it.
>>
>> so cause they put the wrong engine I should get a free re test eh well
>> I'll
>> try it and see.
>>
>> now I'm starting to see why the guy sold this jeep.
>> still not deterred though just fed up with gov.
>>
>> well I will be paying 170 for diagnostics that include carb and timing
>> adjustments, as well as emission components check.and they have the jeep
>> for
>> the entire day.
>> that's got to be worth something there.
>>
>> "Snow" <snowbal@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> news:9bb8e.26813$8i6.1037704@news20.bellglobal.com ...
>> > You might get burned on the theory of have the diagnostic tell you
>> > whats
>> > wrong and then do the work yourself. If you live here in the Land of
>> > "Dalton I'm dumber then rock M'ginty" (Ontario). You will need to
>> > show
>> > any and all work was preformed by an authorized repair facility in
>> > order
>> > to meet the cap quota. If you do $350.00 dollars of repairs on your
>> > own
>> > before the retest and still fail that $350.00 WON"T count towards the
>> > cap
>> > (about $550.00 IIRC).
>> >
>> > Also that cap is good for one time only, the first time a vehicle fails
>> > it
>> > has a repair cap and it will be granted a conditional pass (one time
>> > only)
>> > subsequent fails the vehicle is to be fixed until it passes.
>> >
>> > Two tests ago my 93 XJ fail, here is a breakdown of the repair charges
>> > by
>> > Cambodian Tire.
>> > Diagnostic $100.00
>> > O2 sensor $ 80.00
>> > Oil Change $ 15.00 (this was oil only)
>> > Air/Oil/Fuel filter $50.00 (filters only)
>> > Labour $145.00 ($60/hr)
>> > Total $390.00
>> >
>> > The cap was $500 as the test had been established in my area for
>> > sometime.
>> > The Cherokee still failed the retest after all that was done. The last
>> > thing the Tech. did before retesting was the oil change (cost about
>> > $20)
>> > main reason he did this was the next step in the T/S was to change the
>> > cat. $370.00 still allowed him to change the cat, $390.00 ment that
>> > repair
>> > would put me over the cap and he couldn't do it.
>> >
>> > I asked thenif I were to do the work (change the sensor) and return
>> > with
>> > it would they retest it, No problem, but if it still failed I would
>> > have
>> > to prove that a authorized shop fixed it otherwise I would still have
>> > that
>> > $500 cap, if an authorized shop fixed their charges would be deducted
>> > from
>> > the cap total and I would have the remaining still to spend.
>> >
>> > Snow...
>> >
>> > "u know who" <wraithyneon@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> > news:C908e.26607$8i6.969093@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
>> >> ya extortion test that's a good name for it.
>> >> it appears my egr is broken as the swivel vacuum nipple seems to be
>> >> bent
>> >> and the housing of where the vacuum nipple sits is cracked and broken.
>> >>
>> >> I'm going to pay for the diagnostics test then take the
>> >> recommendations
>> >> and do the work myself and keep a folder with receipts. then take it
>> >> back
>> >> for the retest once I hit my limit. and also at that point I will have
>> >> my
>> >> new egr and whatever else they recommend as well as my nutter bypass
>> >> and
>> >> 3 ounces of acetone added to the fuel.
>> >>
>> >> On my e test they put that I have a 4.0L.
>> >> On my asm2525 test my NO ppm was 3677 timing was way to advanced limit
>> >> was 893. And curb idle test HC ppm was 325 limit was 200.reason idle
>> >> to
>> >> high and mixture screws set to rich. also CO% was 1.03 missed a pass
>> >> by
>> >> .04
>> >>
>> >> well at least I can assume that I should pass next time as the jeep
>> >> was
>> >> so out of tune. reason for being out of tune I found a bad vacuum leak
>> >> and never adjusted the carb to reflect the stopped vacuum leak.
>> >>
>> >> been so long since I played with a carbed equipped veh. and the fact
>> >> that
>> >> it is also computer controlled sucks. which basically means that some
>> >> of
>> >> my adjustment can be over ruled by the computer.
>> >>
>> >> alwell
>> >>
>> >> keep fingers crossed for Tuesday. diagnostic day.
>> >> the retest down the road.
>> >> not so bad cause ministry issued me real plates even though it was a
>> >> resale change of ownership. so theoretically I don't require a test
>> >> till
>> >> my plate renewal.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >> news:42607229.7E0A03D7@sympatico.ca...
>> >>> Oh, you can usually clean the EGR's out. Carbon is an issue and for
>> >>> sure you need one working to pass the sniffer.
>> >>>
>> >>> Mike
>> >>>
>> >>> u know who wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> hmmmmm
>> >>>> I read the nutter instructions sounds like this will have to be
>> >>>> something
>> >>>> that I will have to do to my 89yj as it will not pass emissions
>> >>>> the sad part is it was recommended that I may need a evap canister
>> >>>> guess
>> >>>> what no longer available anywhere.
>> >>>> government sucks
>> >>>>
>> >>>> if I fail then 450$ conditional pass, then 650$ ever 2 years really
>> >>>> sucks
>> >>>> I know I still need an egr though.
>> >>>> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >>>> news:42605772.F0571EA0@sympatico.ca...
>> >>>> > All the junk can be left in place. It only requires 2 new wires
>> >>>> > from
>> >>>> > the ignition module to the distributor that fit inside the loom.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > You then just set the carb mix and timing. That's it!
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > If you have to put it back, it is only 2 wires to change.....
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Mike
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Jeff Strickland wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >>>> >> news:42604598.8FE80D28@sympatico.ca...
>> >>>> >> > Well after arguing myself blue with a 'mechanic' that says no
>> >>>> >> > way
>> >>>> >> > a
>> >>>> >> > Jeep
>> >>>> >> > with a carb can pass emissions in California if you disable the
>> >>>> >> > emissions computer or do a 'Nutter' on it after the first guy I
>> >>>> >> > think
>> >>>> >> > to
>> >>>> >> > put the directions online:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> The problem is, in Calif., the system has to physically be
>> >>>> >> installed. I
>> >>>> >> don't know what the bypass entails, but if stuff is removed, then
>> >>>> >> the
>> >>>> >> vehicle fails because of the visual inspection that comes before
>> >>>> >> the
>> >>>> >> sniff
>> >>>> >> test.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> There is considerable irony here, the bypass can conceivably
>> >>>> >> result
>> >>>> >> in
>> >>>> >> better performance with the sniffer, but because the system
>> >>>> >> hasn't
>> >>>> >> got
>> >>>> >> all
>> >>>> >> of the components, it automatically fails. The vehicle can spit
>> >>>> >> out
>> >>>> >> better
>> >>>> >> numbers, but if the parts are missing, it will fail. Sad - even
>> >>>> >> stupid -
>> >>>> >> but
>> >>>> >> true.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> > http://www.off-road.com/jeep/jnutter1.htm
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > It gives a sweet 25% 'seat of the pants' power boost and an
>> >>>> >> > 'easy'
>> >>>> >> > 10
>> >>>> >> > mph extra per gear.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > The mechanic's reasoning is the NOx will blow out or the timing
>> >>>> >> > will
>> >>>> >> > have to be too far back to pass.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > The Jeep numbers for an 89 YJ 4.2 in California are 875 NOx on
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > ASM
>> >>>> >> > 2525 test I was told.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > I found my 2003 ASM 2525 emissions papers for my Canadian 1986
>> >>>> >> > CJ7
>> >>>> >> > that
>> >>>> >> > I
>> >>>> >> > disabled the computer in.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Specs.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > - 1986 Canadian CJ7 4.2L, Likely 60,000 original miles on it.
>> >>>> >> > - 'No' Catalytic converter (not needed in Canada)
>> >>>> >> > - 2" straight pipe with a high flow Dynomax turbo muffler.
>> >>>> >> > - No computer, 'Nuttered'
>> >>>> >> > - Base timing set at 9 deg BTDC with the vacuum line off like
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > book
>> >>>> >> > says for a non computer engine. (If I go with the higher RPM
>> >>>> >> > setting of
>> >>>> >> > full advance the sticker on a YJ says, I end up with 6 or 7
>> >>>> >> > deg.
>> >>>> >> > BTDC
>> >>>> >> > base and I find that too boggy for power so I even have room to
>> >>>> >> > play
>> >>>> >> > there.)
>> >>>> >> > - 92 octane ESSO gas.
>> >>>> >> > - Ported on the timing advance
>> >>>> >> > - Stock BBD carb set to 'best lean idle' and always a fresh
>> >>>> >> > $20.00
>> >>>> >> > rebuild kit for the test.
>> >>>> >> > - Accel Supercoil for hot spark with Champion plugs and OEM
>> >>>> >> > wires.
>> >>>> >> > - Strong pull up to 4400 rpm, then falls flat.
>> >>>> >> > - 11L/100km or something like 23 US mpg highway
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On the ASM 2525 test I got 589 NOx!!!!!.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And 16 ppm HC
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And 0.11% CO
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Photo of the papers here:
>> >>>> >> > http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=4290636987
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And a post on alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4 with the JPG
>> >>>> >> > photo
>> >>>> >> > of the
>> >>>> >> > paperwork.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Not a fluke, I killed the computer in 2000, this 2003 one was
>> >>>> >> > just
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > only year they actually put the NOx reading on because I don't
>> >>>> >> > have to
>> >>>> >> > pass that.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And the best part is I have passed the last test it ever will
>> >>>> >> > need! It
>> >>>> >> > becomes too old before the next one.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Mike
>> >>>> >> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> >>>> >> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
well i know my jeep doesn't go that fast.
feels like it could with some tuning but right now it can't.
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4263AFAD.5C0E9B9E@sympatico.ca...
> Crap man, where do you live?
>
> I am in Toronto and am home most days with more than half a clue how to
> set them up for our 'Canadian' emissions pass. I can't do much work,
> but I can sure still point....
>
> My CJ7 goes like a scalded cat! It lights up my 33's too easy from a
> start, I pull really fast to 50 mph in 2nd gear hitting about 4400 rpm,
> 3rd gear pulls hard up to 75 mph, 4th will bury the speedo and I have
> 'no' freakin' urge to find out how fast 5th will go.....
>
> And my readings are below.
>
> Mike
>
> u know who wrote:
>>
>> hi according the to gov of Ontario emissions pamphlet.
>> I must have a diagnostic performed by authorized fix place.
>> then according to there diagnostic sheet of probable causes I can do the
>> repairs according to only what is on the list up to the repair cost
>> limit. I
>> must keep all receipts and the diagnostic list to show as proof. but only
>> I
>> or the garage that did the test can work on my car to count toward the
>> limit.
>> I would get more bang for my buck if I do the work than paying them to do
>> it.
>>
>> so couple of questions what happens when you have spent your 450 and then
>> go
>> back 2 yrs later and you fail again and the list of repairs have been
>> done
>> but ya still fail. oh and what happens when parts are no longer
>> available
>> from any source to fix emissions components which I have all ready run
>> into.
>> carbed jeeps rarely pass emissions and if they do they are so leaned out
>> that ya can't drive them.
>> next year the Howell fuel injection set up. I have already spoken to them
>> and there off road kit meets regular emission requirements other than
>> cali.
>> plus the increase in fuel economy will make it worth it.
>>
>> so cause they put the wrong engine I should get a free re test eh well
>> I'll
>> try it and see.
>>
>> now I'm starting to see why the guy sold this jeep.
>> still not deterred though just fed up with gov.
>>
>> well I will be paying 170 for diagnostics that include carb and timing
>> adjustments, as well as emission components check.and they have the jeep
>> for
>> the entire day.
>> that's got to be worth something there.
>>
>> "Snow" <snowbal@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> news:9bb8e.26813$8i6.1037704@news20.bellglobal.com ...
>> > You might get burned on the theory of have the diagnostic tell you
>> > whats
>> > wrong and then do the work yourself. If you live here in the Land of
>> > "Dalton I'm dumber then rock M'ginty" (Ontario). You will need to
>> > show
>> > any and all work was preformed by an authorized repair facility in
>> > order
>> > to meet the cap quota. If you do $350.00 dollars of repairs on your
>> > own
>> > before the retest and still fail that $350.00 WON"T count towards the
>> > cap
>> > (about $550.00 IIRC).
>> >
>> > Also that cap is good for one time only, the first time a vehicle fails
>> > it
>> > has a repair cap and it will be granted a conditional pass (one time
>> > only)
>> > subsequent fails the vehicle is to be fixed until it passes.
>> >
>> > Two tests ago my 93 XJ fail, here is a breakdown of the repair charges
>> > by
>> > Cambodian Tire.
>> > Diagnostic $100.00
>> > O2 sensor $ 80.00
>> > Oil Change $ 15.00 (this was oil only)
>> > Air/Oil/Fuel filter $50.00 (filters only)
>> > Labour $145.00 ($60/hr)
>> > Total $390.00
>> >
>> > The cap was $500 as the test had been established in my area for
>> > sometime.
>> > The Cherokee still failed the retest after all that was done. The last
>> > thing the Tech. did before retesting was the oil change (cost about
>> > $20)
>> > main reason he did this was the next step in the T/S was to change the
>> > cat. $370.00 still allowed him to change the cat, $390.00 ment that
>> > repair
>> > would put me over the cap and he couldn't do it.
>> >
>> > I asked thenif I were to do the work (change the sensor) and return
>> > with
>> > it would they retest it, No problem, but if it still failed I would
>> > have
>> > to prove that a authorized shop fixed it otherwise I would still have
>> > that
>> > $500 cap, if an authorized shop fixed their charges would be deducted
>> > from
>> > the cap total and I would have the remaining still to spend.
>> >
>> > Snow...
>> >
>> > "u know who" <wraithyneon@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> > news:C908e.26607$8i6.969093@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
>> >> ya extortion test that's a good name for it.
>> >> it appears my egr is broken as the swivel vacuum nipple seems to be
>> >> bent
>> >> and the housing of where the vacuum nipple sits is cracked and broken.
>> >>
>> >> I'm going to pay for the diagnostics test then take the
>> >> recommendations
>> >> and do the work myself and keep a folder with receipts. then take it
>> >> back
>> >> for the retest once I hit my limit. and also at that point I will have
>> >> my
>> >> new egr and whatever else they recommend as well as my nutter bypass
>> >> and
>> >> 3 ounces of acetone added to the fuel.
>> >>
>> >> On my e test they put that I have a 4.0L.
>> >> On my asm2525 test my NO ppm was 3677 timing was way to advanced limit
>> >> was 893. And curb idle test HC ppm was 325 limit was 200.reason idle
>> >> to
>> >> high and mixture screws set to rich. also CO% was 1.03 missed a pass
>> >> by
>> >> .04
>> >>
>> >> well at least I can assume that I should pass next time as the jeep
>> >> was
>> >> so out of tune. reason for being out of tune I found a bad vacuum leak
>> >> and never adjusted the carb to reflect the stopped vacuum leak.
>> >>
>> >> been so long since I played with a carbed equipped veh. and the fact
>> >> that
>> >> it is also computer controlled sucks. which basically means that some
>> >> of
>> >> my adjustment can be over ruled by the computer.
>> >>
>> >> alwell
>> >>
>> >> keep fingers crossed for Tuesday. diagnostic day.
>> >> the retest down the road.
>> >> not so bad cause ministry issued me real plates even though it was a
>> >> resale change of ownership. so theoretically I don't require a test
>> >> till
>> >> my plate renewal.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >> news:42607229.7E0A03D7@sympatico.ca...
>> >>> Oh, you can usually clean the EGR's out. Carbon is an issue and for
>> >>> sure you need one working to pass the sniffer.
>> >>>
>> >>> Mike
>> >>>
>> >>> u know who wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> hmmmmm
>> >>>> I read the nutter instructions sounds like this will have to be
>> >>>> something
>> >>>> that I will have to do to my 89yj as it will not pass emissions
>> >>>> the sad part is it was recommended that I may need a evap canister
>> >>>> guess
>> >>>> what no longer available anywhere.
>> >>>> government sucks
>> >>>>
>> >>>> if I fail then 450$ conditional pass, then 650$ ever 2 years really
>> >>>> sucks
>> >>>> I know I still need an egr though.
>> >>>> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >>>> news:42605772.F0571EA0@sympatico.ca...
>> >>>> > All the junk can be left in place. It only requires 2 new wires
>> >>>> > from
>> >>>> > the ignition module to the distributor that fit inside the loom.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > You then just set the carb mix and timing. That's it!
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > If you have to put it back, it is only 2 wires to change.....
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Mike
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Jeff Strickland wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> >>>> >> news:42604598.8FE80D28@sympatico.ca...
>> >>>> >> > Well after arguing myself blue with a 'mechanic' that says no
>> >>>> >> > way
>> >>>> >> > a
>> >>>> >> > Jeep
>> >>>> >> > with a carb can pass emissions in California if you disable the
>> >>>> >> > emissions computer or do a 'Nutter' on it after the first guy I
>> >>>> >> > think
>> >>>> >> > to
>> >>>> >> > put the directions online:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> The problem is, in Calif., the system has to physically be
>> >>>> >> installed. I
>> >>>> >> don't know what the bypass entails, but if stuff is removed, then
>> >>>> >> the
>> >>>> >> vehicle fails because of the visual inspection that comes before
>> >>>> >> the
>> >>>> >> sniff
>> >>>> >> test.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> There is considerable irony here, the bypass can conceivably
>> >>>> >> result
>> >>>> >> in
>> >>>> >> better performance with the sniffer, but because the system
>> >>>> >> hasn't
>> >>>> >> got
>> >>>> >> all
>> >>>> >> of the components, it automatically fails. The vehicle can spit
>> >>>> >> out
>> >>>> >> better
>> >>>> >> numbers, but if the parts are missing, it will fail. Sad - even
>> >>>> >> stupid -
>> >>>> >> but
>> >>>> >> true.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> > http://www.off-road.com/jeep/jnutter1.htm
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > It gives a sweet 25% 'seat of the pants' power boost and an
>> >>>> >> > 'easy'
>> >>>> >> > 10
>> >>>> >> > mph extra per gear.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > The mechanic's reasoning is the NOx will blow out or the timing
>> >>>> >> > will
>> >>>> >> > have to be too far back to pass.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > The Jeep numbers for an 89 YJ 4.2 in California are 875 NOx on
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > ASM
>> >>>> >> > 2525 test I was told.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > I found my 2003 ASM 2525 emissions papers for my Canadian 1986
>> >>>> >> > CJ7
>> >>>> >> > that
>> >>>> >> > I
>> >>>> >> > disabled the computer in.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Specs.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > - 1986 Canadian CJ7 4.2L, Likely 60,000 original miles on it.
>> >>>> >> > - 'No' Catalytic converter (not needed in Canada)
>> >>>> >> > - 2" straight pipe with a high flow Dynomax turbo muffler.
>> >>>> >> > - No computer, 'Nuttered'
>> >>>> >> > - Base timing set at 9 deg BTDC with the vacuum line off like
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > book
>> >>>> >> > says for a non computer engine. (If I go with the higher RPM
>> >>>> >> > setting of
>> >>>> >> > full advance the sticker on a YJ says, I end up with 6 or 7
>> >>>> >> > deg.
>> >>>> >> > BTDC
>> >>>> >> > base and I find that too boggy for power so I even have room to
>> >>>> >> > play
>> >>>> >> > there.)
>> >>>> >> > - 92 octane ESSO gas.
>> >>>> >> > - Ported on the timing advance
>> >>>> >> > - Stock BBD carb set to 'best lean idle' and always a fresh
>> >>>> >> > $20.00
>> >>>> >> > rebuild kit for the test.
>> >>>> >> > - Accel Supercoil for hot spark with Champion plugs and OEM
>> >>>> >> > wires.
>> >>>> >> > - Strong pull up to 4400 rpm, then falls flat.
>> >>>> >> > - 11L/100km or something like 23 US mpg highway
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On the ASM 2525 test I got 589 NOx!!!!!.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And 16 ppm HC
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And 0.11% CO
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Photo of the papers here:
>> >>>> >> > http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=4290636987
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And a post on alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4 with the JPG
>> >>>> >> > photo
>> >>>> >> > of the
>> >>>> >> > paperwork.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Not a fluke, I killed the computer in 2000, this 2003 one was
>> >>>> >> > just
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > only year they actually put the NOx reading on because I don't
>> >>>> >> > have to
>> >>>> >> > pass that.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And the best part is I have passed the last test it ever will
>> >>>> >> > need! It
>> >>>> >> > becomes too old before the next one.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Mike
>> >>>> >> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> >>>> >> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
04-18-2005, 07:59 PM
#90
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1986 'Nuttered' CJ7 4.2L Canadian Emissions Data
next question it the test start for 86 and on vehicles or does it rotate
with time. as in 19 yrs back from the current year?
all I know is if I run my jeep parked in the same spot there will appear a
black mark on the pavement where the exhaust is.
obviously to rich. lots of carbon.
well tomorrow Tuesday is the day.... guess I will let them do the work and
hit the cap. sounds like the best idea.
but first that free redo on the test as they have my motor as a 4.0L see how
that goes by with the shop owner.
that is the third mechanic that I have had to fight with when stating it is
a 4.2L gesh what is up with mechanics they have computers that tell them
this stuff.
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:42604598.8FE80D28@sympatico.ca...
> Well after arguing myself blue with a 'mechanic' that says no way a Jeep
> with a carb can pass emissions in California if you disable the
> emissions computer or do a 'Nutter' on it after the first guy I think to
> put the directions online:
>
> http://www.off-road.com/jeep/jnutter1.htm
>
> It gives a sweet 25% 'seat of the pants' power boost and an 'easy' 10
> mph extra per gear.
>
> The mechanic's reasoning is the NOx will blow out or the timing will
> have to be too far back to pass.
>
> The Jeep numbers for an 89 YJ 4.2 in California are 875 NOx on the ASM
> 2525 test I was told.
>
> I found my 2003 ASM 2525 emissions papers for my Canadian 1986 CJ7 that
> I
> disabled the computer in.
>
> Specs.
>
> - 1986 Canadian CJ7 4.2L, Likely 60,000 original miles on it.
> - 'No' Catalytic converter (not needed in Canada)
> - 2" straight pipe with a high flow Dynomax turbo muffler.
> - No computer, 'Nuttered'
> - Base timing set at 9 deg BTDC with the vacuum line off like the book
> says for a non computer engine. (If I go with the higher RPM setting of
> full advance the sticker on a YJ says, I end up with 6 or 7 deg. BTDC
> base and I find that too boggy for power so I even have room to play
> there.)
> - 92 octane ESSO gas.
> - Ported on the timing advance
> - Stock BBD carb set to 'best lean idle' and always a fresh $20.00
> rebuild kit for the test.
> - Accel Supercoil for hot spark with Champion plugs and OEM wires.
> - Strong pull up to 4400 rpm, then falls flat.
> - 11L/100km or something like 23 US mpg highway
>
> On the ASM 2525 test I got 589 NOx!!!!!.
>
> And 16 ppm HC
>
> And 0.11% CO
>
> Photo of the papers here:
> http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=4290636987
>
> And a post on alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4 with the JPG photo of the
> paperwork.
>
> Not a fluke, I killed the computer in 2000, this 2003 one was just the
> only year they actually put the NOx reading on because I don't have to
> pass that.
>
> And the best part is I have passed the last test it ever will need! It
> becomes too old before the next one.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
with time. as in 19 yrs back from the current year?
all I know is if I run my jeep parked in the same spot there will appear a
black mark on the pavement where the exhaust is.
obviously to rich. lots of carbon.
well tomorrow Tuesday is the day.... guess I will let them do the work and
hit the cap. sounds like the best idea.
but first that free redo on the test as they have my motor as a 4.0L see how
that goes by with the shop owner.
that is the third mechanic that I have had to fight with when stating it is
a 4.2L gesh what is up with mechanics they have computers that tell them
this stuff.
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:42604598.8FE80D28@sympatico.ca...
> Well after arguing myself blue with a 'mechanic' that says no way a Jeep
> with a carb can pass emissions in California if you disable the
> emissions computer or do a 'Nutter' on it after the first guy I think to
> put the directions online:
>
> http://www.off-road.com/jeep/jnutter1.htm
>
> It gives a sweet 25% 'seat of the pants' power boost and an 'easy' 10
> mph extra per gear.
>
> The mechanic's reasoning is the NOx will blow out or the timing will
> have to be too far back to pass.
>
> The Jeep numbers for an 89 YJ 4.2 in California are 875 NOx on the ASM
> 2525 test I was told.
>
> I found my 2003 ASM 2525 emissions papers for my Canadian 1986 CJ7 that
> I
> disabled the computer in.
>
> Specs.
>
> - 1986 Canadian CJ7 4.2L, Likely 60,000 original miles on it.
> - 'No' Catalytic converter (not needed in Canada)
> - 2" straight pipe with a high flow Dynomax turbo muffler.
> - No computer, 'Nuttered'
> - Base timing set at 9 deg BTDC with the vacuum line off like the book
> says for a non computer engine. (If I go with the higher RPM setting of
> full advance the sticker on a YJ says, I end up with 6 or 7 deg. BTDC
> base and I find that too boggy for power so I even have room to play
> there.)
> - 92 octane ESSO gas.
> - Ported on the timing advance
> - Stock BBD carb set to 'best lean idle' and always a fresh $20.00
> rebuild kit for the test.
> - Accel Supercoil for hot spark with Champion plugs and OEM wires.
> - Strong pull up to 4400 rpm, then falls flat.
> - 11L/100km or something like 23 US mpg highway
>
> On the ASM 2525 test I got 589 NOx!!!!!.
>
> And 16 ppm HC
>
> And 0.11% CO
>
> Photo of the papers here:
> http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=4290636987
>
> And a post on alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4 with the JPG photo of the
> paperwork.
>
> Not a fluke, I killed the computer in 2000, this 2003 one was just the
> only year they actually put the NOx reading on because I don't have to
> pass that.
>
> And the best part is I have passed the last test it ever will need! It
> becomes too old before the next one.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's