Hey folks, I prefer to buy American and even local whenever possible too.
And for every story about poor quality, workmanship, service that you can
give me about a foreign make/model would you believe I would not have to
look far/long to come up with two involving a domestic make/model. I just
got a class action suit mailing last week involving brakes on my old Grand
Cherokee. They sucked and enough people got tired of it and DC's ambivalence
to it, so they decided to take legal actions. That seems to be the only
thing that gets Detroit's (I use Detroit to characterize all US automakers)
attention.

I just got back from a trip to Detroit area. I've been in the Food and
Beverage business for a long time and I've had Detroit in my territory (on
and off) for many years. The economy is still in the crapper and the number
of people leaving the area continues to grow. The auto industry is the major
employer and they are in BIG trouble and dragging the entire area down with
them. It's all well documented over the last decade or so. My concern is
that they just don't seem to get it. They keep putting out products that are
old technology and lack innovation. And there is no excuse for it other than
the culture of the industry that I can see.

I like to buy American as much as anyone. I also need to be realistic when
it comes to putting $20-$40K or more into something I buy or lease. That
still represents a lot of dough to me so I feel it is my responsibility to
buy the best product I can for the money. I get mad at Detroit when they
choose (and that's what it is, a choice) not to be competitive with other
world wide auto makers.

What is the market looking for right now? SUVs? High Mileage? or even better
Alternative fueled vehicles? So why do we keep getting the same old tired
things from Detroit. The Wrangler Unlimited caught my eye because it looked
different. Upon further review, there are some differences (and they are
good) but there are way to many of the old ways in there.

Out of the box thinking try this one: Who has the money? Oil Companies
right. Who is hemorrhaging money and looking at a very bleak future? Detroit
right.

Both industries need each other and both have significant headquarters in
the US. So why are we not seeing a joint venture between GM and Exxon/Mobil
instead of GM and Renault?

Lets get US automakers and US oil companies to work together for the quantum
leap to the next vehicles and fuels for them. That is your next space race
and cold war right there boys and girls.

I'll go now, I've ranted enough. That damn class action suit letter pissed
me off. Then I look at the new Jeep and I just get pissed again.





"Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
news:SNqdnR0_FsLk1EzZnZ2dnUVZ_r2dnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>I don't underestimate foreign brands, I just choose not to buy them, not
>out of Bill's not getting over the war, but just because I prefer to
>support American companies. Out of every car I or my wife has ever owned or
>leased, only two were foreign brands (Toyota and Honda, both the wife's)
>
> Her mid-90's Toyota Avalon was OK, but it was too small for me, and the
> OEM tires had chunks out of them (Pirellis, I think) after 20,000 miles.
> Her Honda Odessey from a couple years ago came right off the lot with a
> severe oil leak, a quart every hundred miles or so, and a puddle every
> time we parked it. The dealer couldn't fix it in four tries, their
> attitude was Hondas never have defects like this...so Honda ended up
> buying it back under Michigan's lemon law.
>
> I never said Kia made bad vehicles. I just said have fun in yours. I'll
> have fun in my Jeeps and Fords, and when you need to be pulled out of a
> small mudhole I might even help you out, because I'm that nice a guy.
>
> "Brian Foster" <brianfoster@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:2GaAg.37183$rp4.30776@tornado.texas.rr.com...
>> Thanks Matty, first for the geography lesson and then the Kia crack. Kia
>> BTW is making pretty damn good vehicles. You just go right ahead and
>> underestimate them, like you did Toyota. Just keep buying jeeps, Dr Z
>> loves ya :)
>>
>>
>> "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
>> news:N6Wdnc5TbJBch0zZnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>>> Have fun with your Kia Sportage, troll.
>>>
>>> "Brian Foster" <brianfoster@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
>>> news:cY4Ag.41868$Cn6.11870@tornado.texas.rr.com...
>>>>A good step back in the right direction. This might get me interested in
>>>>Jeep again. Appearance is OK and the initial utility on the thing looks
>>>>great.
>>>>
>>>> Same old tired jeep performance (+/- 200hp) yawn, with no other
>>>> options.
>>>>
>>>> And the Jeep website still looks/works like someone who just got their
>>>> first computer did it.
>>>>
>>>> A good first step but a lot of ground to make up if they want to sell
>>>> many vehicles.....
>>>>
>>>> Maybe it's the water in MI that inhibits innovation and creativity.
>>>> Will the last person out of Detroit please remember to turn the lights
>>>> off?
>>>>
>>>> Last time I looked Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai were not slowing
>>>> down any.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

 

"Brian Foster" <brianfoster@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4FnAg.42446$rp4.2034@tornado.texas.rr.com...

> I just got back from a trip to Detroit area. I've been in the Food and
> Beverage business for a long time and I've had Detroit in my territory (on
> and off) for many years. The economy is still in the crapper and the
> number of people leaving the area continues to grow. The auto industry is
> the major employer and they are in BIG trouble and dragging the entire
> area down with them. It's all well documented over the last decade or so.
> My concern is that they just don't seem to get it. They keep putting out
> products that are old technology and lack innovation. And there is no
> excuse for it other than the culture of the industry that I can see.

Since I live here, I probably have a better picture of the situation than
someone outside looking in. Yes, Michigan's economy is in the crapper, and
will be for several more years. I think you would be remiss if you didn't
also implicate the UAW, because for the last twenty years or so they have
been able to bleed the Big Three dry, but of course the Big Three let them,
especially in the 90's boom. But what's worse is the unions, which are
necessary in protecting worker's rights, have gone way beyond that. They
have fostered an entitlement mentality in the workforce, when people get
accustomed to getting paid $20/hour for tightening down a few bolts on a
line. And often the union reps encourage or turn a blind eye to blatant
productivity losses in the name of protecting the union...line workers
setting up a grill in the plant and selling hot dogs, sitting around in the
break room being paid full rate for half a shift because the quota has been
met.

I own a store in Livonia, and at any given time I employ about a dozen
workers. My key staff are great, but we;ve had some people move on so we
hung a Now Hiring sign out front for a couple weeks We were getting 10-15
applications a day, and most of them we had to round-file because few
applicants had the skills we needed. We're retail so we don't start people
at $15/hour (we do start them way above minimum wage) but the prevalent
attitude among many of the applications, and even some we hired, is that
it's OK to call in sick if you don't feel like working that day, or we can
stand around if we can't find anything to do. In general, the work ethic
here sucks. As an employer, I can't afford that kind of lack of
productivity.

>
> I like to buy American as much as anyone. I also need to be realistic when
> it comes to putting $20-$40K or more into something I buy or lease. That
> still represents a lot of dough to me so I feel it is my responsibility to
> buy the best product I can for the money. I get mad at Detroit when they
> choose (and that's what it is, a choice) not to be competitive with other
> world wide auto makers.

You get mad too easily, have a beer.

>
> What is the market looking for right now? SUVs? High Mileage? or even
> better Alternative fueled vehicles? So why do we keep getting the same old
> tired things from Detroit. The Wrangler Unlimited caught my eye because it
> looked different. Upon further review, there are some differences (and
> they are good) but there are way to many of the old ways in there.
>
I would love a diesel Wrangler.

> Out of the box thinking try this one: Who has the money? Oil Companies
> right. Who is hemorrhaging money and looking at a very bleak future?
> Detroit right.
>
Once the Big Three get thinking globally within the American market they
will come back.

> Both industries need each other and both have significant headquarters in
> the US. So why are we not seeing a joint venture between GM and
> Exxon/Mobil instead of GM and Renault?
>
What makes you think Exxon Mobil wants to help GM make cars that use less
gas?

> Lets get US automakers and US oil companies to work together for the
> quantum leap to the next vehicles and fuels for them. That is your next
> space race and cold war right there boys and girls.

You've read Tom Friedmann, I see. If we can get a "Moon Shot" type
declaration and national commitment from our sitting President, it might
happen. But he's in bed with Big Oil so probably not.

>
> I'll go now, I've ranted enough. That damn class action suit letter pissed
> me off. Then I look at the new Jeep and I just get pissed again.
>
Like I said, have a beer.

 

"Brian Foster" <brianfoster@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4FnAg.42446$rp4.2034@tornado.texas.rr.com...

> I just got back from a trip to Detroit area. I've been in the Food and
> Beverage business for a long time and I've had Detroit in my territory (on
> and off) for many years. The economy is still in the crapper and the
> number of people leaving the area continues to grow. The auto industry is
> the major employer and they are in BIG trouble and dragging the entire
> area down with them. It's all well documented over the last decade or so.
> My concern is that they just don't seem to get it. They keep putting out
> products that are old technology and lack innovation. And there is no
> excuse for it other than the culture of the industry that I can see.

Since I live here, I probably have a better picture of the situation than
someone outside looking in. Yes, Michigan's economy is in the crapper, and
will be for several more years. I think you would be remiss if you didn't
also implicate the UAW, because for the last twenty years or so they have
been able to bleed the Big Three dry, but of course the Big Three let them,
especially in the 90's boom. But what's worse is the unions, which are
necessary in protecting worker's rights, have gone way beyond that. They
have fostered an entitlement mentality in the workforce, when people get
accustomed to getting paid $20/hour for tightening down a few bolts on a
line. And often the union reps encourage or turn a blind eye to blatant
productivity losses in the name of protecting the union...line workers
setting up a grill in the plant and selling hot dogs, sitting around in the
break room being paid full rate for half a shift because the quota has been
met.

I own a store in Livonia, and at any given time I employ about a dozen
workers. My key staff are great, but we;ve had some people move on so we
hung a Now Hiring sign out front for a couple weeks We were getting 10-15
applications a day, and most of them we had to round-file because few
applicants had the skills we needed. We're retail so we don't start people
at $15/hour (we do start them way above minimum wage) but the prevalent
attitude among many of the applications, and even some we hired, is that
it's OK to call in sick if you don't feel like working that day, or we can
stand around if we can't find anything to do. In general, the work ethic
here sucks. As an employer, I can't afford that kind of lack of
productivity.

>
> I like to buy American as much as anyone. I also need to be realistic when
> it comes to putting $20-$40K or more into something I buy or lease. That
> still represents a lot of dough to me so I feel it is my responsibility to
> buy the best product I can for the money. I get mad at Detroit when they
> choose (and that's what it is, a choice) not to be competitive with other
> world wide auto makers.

You get mad too easily, have a beer.

>
> What is the market looking for right now? SUVs? High Mileage? or even
> better Alternative fueled vehicles? So why do we keep getting the same old
> tired things from Detroit. The Wrangler Unlimited caught my eye because it
> looked different. Upon further review, there are some differences (and
> they are good) but there are way to many of the old ways in there.
>
I would love a diesel Wrangler.

> Out of the box thinking try this one: Who has the money? Oil Companies
> right. Who is hemorrhaging money and looking at a very bleak future?
> Detroit right.
>
Once the Big Three get thinking globally within the American market they
will come back.

> Both industries need each other and both have significant headquarters in
> the US. So why are we not seeing a joint venture between GM and
> Exxon/Mobil instead of GM and Renault?
>
What makes you think Exxon Mobil wants to help GM make cars that use less
gas?

> Lets get US automakers and US oil companies to work together for the
> quantum leap to the next vehicles and fuels for them. That is your next
> space race and cold war right there boys and girls.

You've read Tom Friedmann, I see. If we can get a "Moon Shot" type
declaration and national commitment from our sitting President, it might
happen. But he's in bed with Big Oil so probably not.

>
> I'll go now, I've ranted enough. That damn class action suit letter pissed
> me off. Then I look at the new Jeep and I just get pissed again.
>
Like I said, have a beer.

 

"Brian Foster" <brianfoster@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4FnAg.42446$rp4.2034@tornado.texas.rr.com...

> I just got back from a trip to Detroit area. I've been in the Food and
> Beverage business for a long time and I've had Detroit in my territory (on
> and off) for many years. The economy is still in the crapper and the
> number of people leaving the area continues to grow. The auto industry is
> the major employer and they are in BIG trouble and dragging the entire
> area down with them. It's all well documented over the last decade or so.
> My concern is that they just don't seem to get it. They keep putting out
> products that are old technology and lack innovation. And there is no
> excuse for it other than the culture of the industry that I can see.

Since I live here, I probably have a better picture of the situation than
someone outside looking in. Yes, Michigan's economy is in the crapper, and
will be for several more years. I think you would be remiss if you didn't
also implicate the UAW, because for the last twenty years or so they have
been able to bleed the Big Three dry, but of course the Big Three let them,
especially in the 90's boom. But what's worse is the unions, which are
necessary in protecting worker's rights, have gone way beyond that. They
have fostered an entitlement mentality in the workforce, when people get
accustomed to getting paid $20/hour for tightening down a few bolts on a
line. And often the union reps encourage or turn a blind eye to blatant
productivity losses in the name of protecting the union...line workers
setting up a grill in the plant and selling hot dogs, sitting around in the
break room being paid full rate for half a shift because the quota has been
met.

I own a store in Livonia, and at any given time I employ about a dozen
workers. My key staff are great, but we;ve had some people move on so we
hung a Now Hiring sign out front for a couple weeks We were getting 10-15
applications a day, and most of them we had to round-file because few
applicants had the skills we needed. We're retail so we don't start people
at $15/hour (we do start them way above minimum wage) but the prevalent
attitude among many of the applications, and even some we hired, is that
it's OK to call in sick if you don't feel like working that day, or we can
stand around if we can't find anything to do. In general, the work ethic
here sucks. As an employer, I can't afford that kind of lack of
productivity.

>
> I like to buy American as much as anyone. I also need to be realistic when
> it comes to putting $20-$40K or more into something I buy or lease. That
> still represents a lot of dough to me so I feel it is my responsibility to
> buy the best product I can for the money. I get mad at Detroit when they
> choose (and that's what it is, a choice) not to be competitive with other
> world wide auto makers.

You get mad too easily, have a beer.

>
> What is the market looking for right now? SUVs? High Mileage? or even
> better Alternative fueled vehicles? So why do we keep getting the same old
> tired things from Detroit. The Wrangler Unlimited caught my eye because it
> looked different. Upon further review, there are some differences (and
> they are good) but there are way to many of the old ways in there.
>
I would love a diesel Wrangler.

> Out of the box thinking try this one: Who has the money? Oil Companies
> right. Who is hemorrhaging money and looking at a very bleak future?
> Detroit right.
>
Once the Big Three get thinking globally within the American market they
will come back.

> Both industries need each other and both have significant headquarters in
> the US. So why are we not seeing a joint venture between GM and
> Exxon/Mobil instead of GM and Renault?
>
What makes you think Exxon Mobil wants to help GM make cars that use less
gas?

> Lets get US automakers and US oil companies to work together for the
> quantum leap to the next vehicles and fuels for them. That is your next
> space race and cold war right there boys and girls.

You've read Tom Friedmann, I see. If we can get a "Moon Shot" type
declaration and national commitment from our sitting President, it might
happen. But he's in bed with Big Oil so probably not.

>
> I'll go now, I've ranted enough. That damn class action suit letter pissed
> me off. Then I look at the new Jeep and I just get pissed again.
>
Like I said, have a beer.

 

"Brian Foster" <brianfoster@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4FnAg.42446$rp4.2034@tornado.texas.rr.com...

> I just got back from a trip to Detroit area. I've been in the Food and
> Beverage business for a long time and I've had Detroit in my territory (on
> and off) for many years. The economy is still in the crapper and the
> number of people leaving the area continues to grow. The auto industry is
> the major employer and they are in BIG trouble and dragging the entire
> area down with them. It's all well documented over the last decade or so.
> My concern is that they just don't seem to get it. They keep putting out
> products that are old technology and lack innovation. And there is no
> excuse for it other than the culture of the industry that I can see.

Since I live here, I probably have a better picture of the situation than
someone outside looking in. Yes, Michigan's economy is in the crapper, and
will be for several more years. I think you would be remiss if you didn't
also implicate the UAW, because for the last twenty years or so they have
been able to bleed the Big Three dry, but of course the Big Three let them,
especially in the 90's boom. But what's worse is the unions, which are
necessary in protecting worker's rights, have gone way beyond that. They
have fostered an entitlement mentality in the workforce, when people get
accustomed to getting paid $20/hour for tightening down a few bolts on a
line. And often the union reps encourage or turn a blind eye to blatant
productivity losses in the name of protecting the union...line workers
setting up a grill in the plant and selling hot dogs, sitting around in the
break room being paid full rate for half a shift because the quota has been
met.

I own a store in Livonia, and at any given time I employ about a dozen
workers. My key staff are great, but we;ve had some people move on so we
hung a Now Hiring sign out front for a couple weeks We were getting 10-15
applications a day, and most of them we had to round-file because few
applicants had the skills we needed. We're retail so we don't start people
at $15/hour (we do start them way above minimum wage) but the prevalent
attitude among many of the applications, and even some we hired, is that
it's OK to call in sick if you don't feel like working that day, or we can
stand around if we can't find anything to do. In general, the work ethic
here sucks. As an employer, I can't afford that kind of lack of
productivity.

>
> I like to buy American as much as anyone. I also need to be realistic when
> it comes to putting $20-$40K or more into something I buy or lease. That
> still represents a lot of dough to me so I feel it is my responsibility to
> buy the best product I can for the money. I get mad at Detroit when they
> choose (and that's what it is, a choice) not to be competitive with other
> world wide auto makers.

You get mad too easily, have a beer.

>
> What is the market looking for right now? SUVs? High Mileage? or even
> better Alternative fueled vehicles? So why do we keep getting the same old
> tired things from Detroit. The Wrangler Unlimited caught my eye because it
> looked different. Upon further review, there are some differences (and
> they are good) but there are way to many of the old ways in there.
>
I would love a diesel Wrangler.

> Out of the box thinking try this one: Who has the money? Oil Companies
> right. Who is hemorrhaging money and looking at a very bleak future?
> Detroit right.
>
Once the Big Three get thinking globally within the American market they
will come back.

> Both industries need each other and both have significant headquarters in
> the US. So why are we not seeing a joint venture between GM and
> Exxon/Mobil instead of GM and Renault?
>
What makes you think Exxon Mobil wants to help GM make cars that use less
gas?

> Lets get US automakers and US oil companies to work together for the
> quantum leap to the next vehicles and fuels for them. That is your next
> space race and cold war right there boys and girls.

You've read Tom Friedmann, I see. If we can get a "Moon Shot" type
declaration and national commitment from our sitting President, it might
happen. But he's in bed with Big Oil so probably not.

>
> I'll go now, I've ranted enough. That damn class action suit letter pissed
> me off. Then I look at the new Jeep and I just get pissed again.
>
Like I said, have a beer.

 

Ya know, some trolls just aren't even worth the effort to suggest they
go mate with themselves.

Brian Foster proclaimed:

> A good step back in the right direction. This might get me interested in
> Jeep again. Appearance is OK and the initial utility on the thing looks
> great.
>
> Same old tired jeep performance (+/- 200hp) yawn, with no other options.
>
> And the Jeep website still looks/works like someone who just got their first
> computer did it.
>
> A good first step but a lot of ground to make up if they want to sell many
> vehicles.....
>
> Maybe it's the water in MI that inhibits innovation and creativity. Will the
> last person out of Detroit please remember to turn the lights off?
>
> Last time I looked Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai were not slowing down
> any.
>
>

 

Ya know, some trolls just aren't even worth the effort to suggest they
go mate with themselves.

Brian Foster proclaimed:

> A good step back in the right direction. This might get me interested in
> Jeep again. Appearance is OK and the initial utility on the thing looks
> great.
>
> Same old tired jeep performance (+/- 200hp) yawn, with no other options.
>
> And the Jeep website still looks/works like someone who just got their first
> computer did it.
>
> A good first step but a lot of ground to make up if they want to sell many
> vehicles.....
>
> Maybe it's the water in MI that inhibits innovation and creativity. Will the
> last person out of Detroit please remember to turn the lights off?
>
> Last time I looked Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai were not slowing down
> any.
>
>

 

Ya know, some trolls just aren't even worth the effort to suggest they
go mate with themselves.

Brian Foster proclaimed:

> A good step back in the right direction. This might get me interested in
> Jeep again. Appearance is OK and the initial utility on the thing looks
> great.
>
> Same old tired jeep performance (+/- 200hp) yawn, with no other options.
>
> And the Jeep website still looks/works like someone who just got their first
> computer did it.
>
> A good first step but a lot of ground to make up if they want to sell many
> vehicles.....
>
> Maybe it's the water in MI that inhibits innovation and creativity. Will the
> last person out of Detroit please remember to turn the lights off?
>
> Last time I looked Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai were not slowing down
> any.
>
>

 

Ya know, some trolls just aren't even worth the effort to suggest they
go mate with themselves.

Brian Foster proclaimed:

> A good step back in the right direction. This might get me interested in
> Jeep again. Appearance is OK and the initial utility on the thing looks
> great.
>
> Same old tired jeep performance (+/- 200hp) yawn, with no other options.
>
> And the Jeep website still looks/works like someone who just got their first
> computer did it.
>
> A good first step but a lot of ground to make up if they want to sell many
> vehicles.....
>
> Maybe it's the water in MI that inhibits innovation and creativity. Will the
> last person out of Detroit please remember to turn the lights off?
>
> Last time I looked Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai were not slowing down
> any.
>
>

 

Didja know that Kia means sh*t in one Asian language?
Wonder what Brian Foster means in Swahili.



Brian Foster proclaimed:

> Thanks Matty, first for the geography lesson and then the Kia crack. Kia BTW
> is making pretty damn good vehicles. You just go right ahead and
> underestimate them, like you did Toyota. Just keep buying jeeps, Dr Z loves
> ya :)
>
>
> "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
> news:N6Wdnc5TbJBch0zZnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>
>>Have fun with your Kia Sportage, troll.
>>
>>"Brian Foster" <brianfoster@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
>>news:cY4Ag.41868$Cn6.11870@tornado.texas.rr.com. ..
>>
>>>A good step back in the right direction. This might get me interested in
>>>Jeep again. Appearance is OK and the initial utility on the thing looks
>>>great.
>>>
>>>Same old tired jeep performance (+/- 200hp) yawn, with no other options.
>>>
>>>And the Jeep website still looks/works like someone who just got their
>>>first computer did it.
>>>
>>>A good first step but a lot of ground to make up if they want to sell
>>>many vehicles.....
>>>
>>>Maybe it's the water in MI that inhibits innovation and creativity. Will
>>>the last person out of Detroit please remember to turn the lights off?
>>>
>>>Last time I looked Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai were not slowing
>>>down any.
>>>
>>
>>
>
>