Jeeps Canada - Jeep Forums - watch your selves now

(from jeepkings)After watching things unfold for the last 2 days and after a PM from British Bulldog I have decided to start this thread to make public the info that I had found.

Yes, there was a planned run to the "Welland Washouts" that has since been canceled by those who were setting up the run.

In the thread for this planned run, it was suggested that the property the run was going to be on was owned by the Seaway. This made me believe that maybe we shouldn't be there. A different member stated he had info showing it was an okay area to be. A few of us asked for that info.

The info that was PM'd was a link to the Ontario Trails Council website that listed the location and a description of the trails. The info also lists permitted uses as; equestrians, off-road motorcycles, hikers, mountain bikers, snowmobiles and cross country skiers. Nowhere does it make any mention of four wheel driving (which is a category of trails on the site - listing 3 different trails, none of which are in the Golden Horseshoe Area). This same website also clearly states that ATVs are not permitted, however, it is unclear whether this applied to the entire trail system or just a portion of it.

This info, to me, still left the issue unclear, so I decided to cover my own ass and do some research before just going somewhere I shouldn't be. I thought this would be the smart thing to do seeing as we have witnessed some pretty crazy land use issues in the past few months.

I started my search for info by emailing the Ontario Trails Council using the "Email Us Now" link. That email was returned undeliverable - unsure why.

My 2nd step was to email OF4WD. I got a response from Peter Wood (the President), he said he was 99% sure the area was not open to us. He also stated that the Ontario Federation of Trail Riders (motorcycles) have an agreement to use these trails.

After this email, I was pretty certain we shouldn't be there, but wanted to get more info. So, I sent another email to Niagara Region as i had found a regional website for the same trails discussing their future development. This email also came back as undeliverable (I Later found out that the gentleman I had email had passed away recently and the site was not yet updated).

I still did not want to give up, so I actually called the region as was directed to call the Niagara Peninsula Conservation Authority.

The Niagara Region Conservation Authority directed me to call the Seaway.

The Seaway directed me back to the Region saying the "control" the land.

Seeing as I had already called the Region and was directed away from them, I looked for more info on the internet. I found a site for the Welland Recreational Canal Corporation and decided to give them a call.

After speaking to a guy there, he said that none of the trails they control allow the use of any motorized vehicle. I then made reference to the Ontario Trails Council listing a read him the description and location of the trail and he said that the trail I was referencing was actually controlled by the region. I told him of the hoops I had already been jumping through and he found the phone number, extension and name of the person at the Niagara Region Integrated Community Planning Department that I should speak to.

This person with the planning department knew the exact trail I was speaking of a put me through to a gentleman who she said was the "expert" on the area I was referring to.

Once I spoke to this gentleman, I was very clear on what trail we were discussing and used the Ontario Trails Council website description to verify this. His response to me was that there are 2 trails in the area. 1 is designated as being an equestrian trail and the other is designated as a motorcycle trail. We had a very pleasant discussion where he was able to answer all of my questions and give some great info on the area and some reasoning behind some of the permissions/prohibitions of use.

I asked him to define off-road motorcycle, his response was "they have 2 wheels".

I asked him if ATVs were permited, his response was "No".

I asked him what an ATV was defined as, his response was "anything with more than 2 wheels".

I asked if this would include fully licenced and insured road based vehicles such as Four Wheel Drive Jeeps/Trucks/SUVs/etc., he said that description would include those vehicles.

I asked why the difference between motorcycles and ATVs when it came to use, he explained that a number of years ago the OFTR had come to an agreement with the region to use the lands on a 2 year probationary period where they could measure the impact on the land and any potential issues. After the probationary study the region determined that they would allow the OFTR and it's members to use the land.

The conversation also eluded to the fact that ATVs and other motorized vehicles have NEVER been PERMITTED to use this land for any reason. He also stated that recently a local ATV club had approached the region to start discussions to permit the use of the land for ATV riders.

I asked him about enforcement of the area and it's permitted/prohibited uses. He said that it was a very difficult area to enforce, but if and when people are caught that it would result in a fine up to $5,000 per person (NOT PER VEHICLE). This is also a by-law issue and not a Police issue. For it to become a Police issue, the owner/manager of the land (in this case the region) would have to file a complaint of trespassing.

He also went on to discuss the future development of this area. There is push to develop the area to become part of the Greater Niagara Circle ROUTE which is a system of mostly paved trails the circle the Niagara Region (hence the name). These trails are not unlike the many other trails found in many public parks throughout Ontario. So, it looks like this land may be gone sometime soon anyway.

I thanked him for the information and ended the call. I then forwarded the information I had found to those who were staging the trail run, those who seemed to express some concern of the legality of using the land, and to Jeepkings Admin. At this point I stated I would not be going on the run due to the new info. Some others have agreed.

Now to answer some questions...

I did not do this to "ruin it for others". I did it to cover MY ass considering some of the recent incidents involving members of this board.

I am not a "mole". I am a new Jeep owner/user (bought my Jeep 5 months ago) that would rather legally use his vehicle without incurring any fines or creating a negative image in the eyes of others. Is there moles on Jepkings; there most likely is...but they are also able to troll through YouTube, Flickr, Webshots, and whatever other website you post video and pictures to. There has been discussion of students using pics from these sites to accompany a report on trail use and closure in another part of the province.

My questions did not all of a sudden bring light to a situation that has been going on for years. Through my discussion with the region, the gentleman told me that the region was fully aware of what was going on and that a few years ago they had spent $10,000 putting up signs and within a few months most (if not all) were torn down. He described how "ATV users" would wrap a chain around the sign and use their ATV to pull it out of the ground.

I appologize if you feel this info is in some way detrimental to your activity. I am just the messenger, I did not make up the rules regarding use of this area.

I am, like others have already, asking you to respect the rules for the betterment of our sport. I am not telling you to not go there. I am saying that the info that has been provided to me shows that this is clearly a NO GO AREA. You have been informed and what you chose to do with the info is up to you. I know that some will respect it, some will not...do as you wish.

Based on this info, I am choosing to stay away from this area. If somebody else can give me diferent PROOF showing that this area is okay, then I will rethink my decision, but until that time I will stay away.

If you are choosing to not believe this info, and intend on still using this land, then just think of me and my Jeep as 1 less non-local vehicle to be in your way as you wheel around the area.

Thank you.