watch your selves now
 

(from jeepkings)After watching things unfold for the last 2 days and after a PM from British Bulldog I have decided to start this thread to make public the info that I had found.

Yes, there was a planned run to the "Welland Washouts" that has since been canceled by those who were setting up the run.

In the thread for this planned run, it was suggested that the property the run was going to be on was owned by the Seaway. This made me believe that maybe we shouldn't be there. A different member stated he had info showing it was an okay area to be. A few of us asked for that info.

The info that was PM'd was a link to the Ontario Trails Council website that listed the location and a description of the trails. The info also lists permitted uses as; equestrians, off-road motorcycles, hikers, mountain bikers, snowmobiles and cross country skiers. Nowhere does it make any mention of four wheel driving (which is a category of trails on the site - listing 3 different trails, none of which are in the Golden Horseshoe Area). This same website also clearly states that ATVs are not permitted, however, it is unclear whether this applied to the entire trail system or just a portion of it.

This info, to me, still left the issue unclear, so I decided to cover my own ass and do some research before just going somewhere I shouldn't be. I thought this would be the smart thing to do seeing as we have witnessed some pretty crazy land use issues in the past few months.

I started my search for info by emailing the Ontario Trails Council using the "Email Us Now" link. That email was returned undeliverable - unsure why.

My 2nd step was to email OF4WD. I got a response from Peter Wood (the President), he said he was 99% sure the area was not open to us. He also stated that the Ontario Federation of Trail Riders (motorcycles) have an agreement to use these trails.

After this email, I was pretty certain we shouldn't be there, but wanted to get more info. So, I sent another email to Niagara Region as i had found a regional website for the same trails discussing their future development. This email also came back as undeliverable (I Later found out that the gentleman I had email had passed away recently and the site was not yet updated).

I still did not want to give up, so I actually called the region as was directed to call the Niagara Peninsula Conservation Authority.

The Niagara Region Conservation Authority directed me to call the Seaway.

The Seaway directed me back to the Region saying the "control" the land.

Seeing as I had already called the Region and was directed away from them, I looked for more info on the internet. I found a site for the Welland Recreational Canal Corporation and decided to give them a call.

After speaking to a guy there, he said that none of the trails they control allow the use of any motorized vehicle. I then made reference to the Ontario Trails Council listing a read him the description and location of the trail and he said that the trail I was referencing was actually controlled by the region. I told him of the hoops I had already been jumping through and he found the phone number, extension and name of the person at the Niagara Region Integrated Community Planning Department that I should speak to.

This person with the planning department knew the exact trail I was speaking of a put me through to a gentleman who she said was the "expert" on the area I was referring to.

Once I spoke to this gentleman, I was very clear on what trail we were discussing and used the Ontario Trails Council website description to verify this. His response to me was that there are 2 trails in the area. 1 is designated as being an equestrian trail and the other is designated as a motorcycle trail. We had a very pleasant discussion where he was able to answer all of my questions and give some great info on the area and some reasoning behind some of the permissions/prohibitions of use.

I asked him to define off-road motorcycle, his response was "they have 2 wheels".

I asked him if ATVs were permited, his response was "No".

I asked him what an ATV was defined as, his response was "anything with more than 2 wheels".

I asked if this would include fully licenced and insured road based vehicles such as Four Wheel Drive Jeeps/Trucks/SUVs/etc., he said that description would include those vehicles.

I asked why the difference between motorcycles and ATVs when it came to use, he explained that a number of years ago the OFTR had come to an agreement with the region to use the lands on a 2 year probationary period where they could measure the impact on the land and any potential issues. After the probationary study the region determined that they would allow the OFTR and it's members to use the land.

The conversation also eluded to the fact that ATVs and other motorized vehicles have NEVER been PERMITTED to use this land for any reason. He also stated that recently a local ATV club had approached the region to start discussions to permit the use of the land for ATV riders.

I asked him about enforcement of the area and it's permitted/prohibited uses. He said that it was a very difficult area to enforce, but if and when people are caught that it would result in a fine up to $5,000 per person (NOT PER VEHICLE). This is also a by-law issue and not a Police issue. For it to become a Police issue, the owner/manager of the land (in this case the region) would have to file a complaint of trespassing.

He also went on to discuss the future development of this area. There is push to develop the area to become part of the Greater Niagara Circle ROUTE which is a system of mostly paved trails the circle the Niagara Region (hence the name). These trails are not unlike the many other trails found in many public parks throughout Ontario. So, it looks like this land may be gone sometime soon anyway.

I thanked him for the information and ended the call. I then forwarded the information I had found to those who were staging the trail run, those who seemed to express some concern of the legality of using the land, and to Jeepkings Admin. At this point I stated I would not be going on the run due to the new info. Some others have agreed.

Now to answer some questions...

I did not do this to "ruin it for others". I did it to cover MY ass considering some of the recent incidents involving members of this board.

I am not a "mole". I am a new Jeep owner/user (bought my Jeep 5 months ago) that would rather legally use his vehicle without incurring any fines or creating a negative image in the eyes of others. Is there moles on Jepkings; there most likely is...but they are also able to troll through YouTube, Flickr, Webshots, and whatever other website you post video and pictures to. There has been discussion of students using pics from these sites to accompany a report on trail use and closure in another part of the province.

My questions did not all of a sudden bring light to a situation that has been going on for years. Through my discussion with the region, the gentleman told me that the region was fully aware of what was going on and that a few years ago they had spent $10,000 putting up signs and within a few months most (if not all) were torn down. He described how "ATV users" would wrap a chain around the sign and use their ATV to pull it out of the ground.

I appologize if you feel this info is in some way detrimental to your activity. I am just the messenger, I did not make up the rules regarding use of this area.

I am, like others have already, asking you to respect the rules for the betterment of our sport. I am not telling you to not go there. I am saying that the info that has been provided to me shows that this is clearly a NO GO AREA. You have been informed and what you chose to do with the info is up to you. I know that some will respect it, some will not...do as you wish.

Based on this info, I am choosing to stay away from this area. If somebody else can give me diferent PROOF showing that this area is okay, then I will rethink my decision, but until that time I will stay away.

If you are choosing to not believe this info, and intend on still using this land, then just think of me and my Jeep as 1 less non-local vehicle to be in your way as you wheel around the area.

Thank you.

Re: watch your selves now
 

rather then people saying " that doesnt seem right im not going" they deside to snoop around.
dont some guys have their own trails to worry about?
just watch your selves. who knows whats goin on now.
all the years those trails have been run i never knew it was an issue..
guess we gota act stupid each time :roll:
"what were not aloud to be here" :?
"oh its my first time here i didnt know" :cry:
"i wasnt in there, the mud fell outa the back of the dump truck" :oops:
ill be out on the 6th but wont make it this week.

Re: watch your selves now
 

i'm going to try to get down there tomorrow and take a pic of there horse trail its never been used

Re: watch your selves now
 

is that to the left of us that rocky path?

Re: watch your selves now
 

weve wheeled there for years illegally. for the most part if youre not screwing around and not drinking and litering the trail cops wont bother you.

the atv thing applies to the 4wd atv guys who go in to holes and tear them up, the 2wd guys should be categorized like the motorcycle guys, who do more damage than 2wd atv guys do :)

anytime we go wheeling were trespassing and thats always been the case and always will be. its good that you had some free time to get some definate answers :)

Re: watch your selves now
 

definate answers? does the seaway own all that up to 140-allenburg?
those guys are jelous we have a great place to go wheeling 8-)

Re: watch your selves now
 

im not sure who owns that. we were talking to the guys running the motorcycle race the other weekend and they arent sure whoowns what and what other crap to go through. they said that they had to get permission from the city of port colborne to use that side of the trail for the bike race and other such things. so who really knows who owns what

Re: watch your selves now
 

i'll make a call on monday

Re: watch your selves now
 

well if the city of port is all we need to access it ill have permisson for the charity run at a minimum this year

Re: watch your selves now
 

worst case scenario is we go to scoobys back yard :D

Re: watch your selves now
 

lol the waiting line would be down the street

Re: watch your selves now
 

the only thing i be watching is the mud fly over there windows as i'am a tax payer on all products imported thought the canal system if u want to wheel wheel if not sale your junk and shut the fawk up an take up another hobbie. The only thing that is going to come of this is advertising where people go to have a little fun. Its not like wheelers are out to harm them selves and sew the seaway. My 2 cents.

Re: watch your selves now
 

Right on i like ur aditude Badger thats the way i feel they wana cry go

Re: watch your selves now
 

Could u imangine 20 or so trucks in scoobs back all at the same time

Re: watch your selves now
 

It be like a carnival line up to go round and round LOL

Re: watch your selves now
 

can you imagine scoobs wifes reaction to her entire backyard being torn up not just the side and far back part of it. haha.

just play smart. dont rip up the trails, dont drive like a jackas, dont drink, dont litter. use your heads and if the seaway cops come and your respectful the worst you might get is a 70 dollar trespassing fine.

Re: watch your selves now
 

from what i hear they have cameras all over the place and they like to watch us wheel so if they didn't whant us there they would be out there stopping us thats what i think :D

Re: watch your selves now
 

ray your right, the guy i got my runner from was actually watching me do the big washout under the power lines last year while he as at work, he works for the seaway and he zoomed the nearest camera in to watch the truck lol he said he had 6 or 7 guys with him i nthe room watching-
i have been wheeling out there for about 6 years now and dirt biking most of my life is always been the same BS cause if some one gets hurt most people are quick to sue someone even though they should not be out there as it is!! so they have to cover their own ass at the same time- in all the years i have been out there never been fined and the cops we have seen have not bothered the trucks. so ill continue to wheel out there until i am dragged off kicking and screaming

jeep queens have ALL been out there, hell how many hwere out on the charity run even after i made the ANNOUNCEMENT that we are not technically aloud out there
the problem with most the guys on there is they dont actualyl wanna wheel they wanna look like they do so a shitty side road is good enough for them to make them look like they are hard core lol

Re: watch your selves now
 

yeah and because a muddy jeep means yer hard core!! with those pencil axles lol

Re: watch your selves now
 

like mike said ive been wheelling out there since ive been 14 with dirt bikes 3 wheeler and trucks when ive had them and no problems at all there more worried about the a ss holes that go dump out there cause there the ones that r killing it for us and theres a spot where i can get in with my caravan and no signs down that street at all

Re: watch your selves now
 

you got the straight!
its why i dont wash mine.
and im lazy.
well plus mud hides my rust and patches :oops:

Re: watch your selves now
 

HAHAHAHAHA T you will have the Pencil axles man, but I found them to be even stronger then the Heep axles, so I guess you can say that. We had a good little run today and never saw a single police officer out there.

Re: watch your selves now
 

shoulda pm'd my dad he was up for going this week.
im in for next weekend

Re: watch your selves now
 

Was a good day Rob have some repairs to do before i'am out again :-( still can't get window up piss me off.

Re: watch your selves now
 

The region has some claim over some land along the sea way near pan abrasives andthe end of zuki trail was a lagoon at some time but no one can tell me who owns it now. The government don't know what they own HAHAHA