<lsaugier@hilcorp.com> wrote in message
news:1179595850.935804.75970@y80g2000hsf.googlegro ups.com...
> Thanks for the discussion.
>
> UPDATE: Just now I switched the two bright green wires going to the
> firewall solenoid. When I connected the battery nothing happened
> (that's good!) but when I tried to crank it nothing happened (that's
> bad!). I did get lights on my dash, don't know what that means. I'm
> fairly confident that I had them in the right place to begin with as
> the copper fins they connect to are different - one is slotted and
> one is not.
>

This is a good test.

It tells us that the linkage is okay because the lights on the instrument
panel go ON and OFF with the key, which means the lock set and linkage are
probably not the problem -- which means you do not have to pull the steering
wheel, which is a good thing because pulling the wheel and the lock plate
can be a bitch, especially if there is nothing wrong behind them.

I would not have suspected the Ignition Switch itself, but that is the road
you have guided us to.

The switch is mounted to the steering column in the vicinity of the brake
pedal. It's kind of a bitch to get to. On my Jeep, there is a 3/16 or 5/16
sheetmetal screw holding the switch mounting plate to the steering column.
This job has a certain working-by-braille-while-twisted-like-a-pretzel
quality to it. Other than that, it isn't too difficult.






> Just out of curiosity, what are the wires going to and coming out of
> the solenoid? On the left we have current in from the battery and
> three other dark green (?) wires. All those are mashed together by a
> nut on the left hand bolt. On the right we have one big wire going
> from the solenoid to the starter. There are two bolts on the front of
> the solenoid. On the left-front bolt there is a copper fin with a
> bright green wire coming off of it. On the right front bolt there is
> another copper fin with another bright green wire coming off. Also on
> the right front bolt is a wire with a rubber booted connector that
> slides over the front of the bolt. I understand two wires - "battery
> in" and "out to starter". What/where do all those other wires do/go?
> How does the ignition switch talk to the solenoid? I'm an engineer
> and I just don't feel right unless I understand what I'm working with!
>
> Thanks for the help.
>

There are two huge wires, one goes to the battery and the other to the
starter, and two smaller wires that go to the ignition switch. When you
crank the key, you close contacts on the switch and pass current to the
relay (solenoid is a bit of a misnomer) which fires and closes some really
fat contacts that can handle the high current required by the starter
motor -- this high current is provided by the fat wires we just talked
about.

 

Did anything else act strange or not work right now?

The orange wires keep screaming at the back of my mind. If one of those
orange wires that seem to be all over the place short out, it can be
related to your symptoms. Where the exhaust crosses the back of the
engine comes to mind and the 4x4 light circuit to the t-case.

I have also seen the choke wire melt short against the intake manifold
which also affect the starter relay and kept the starter going.

I am thinking short because the lights work when the maybe shorted wire
was taken out of the circuit by your green wire swap.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

lsaugier@hilcorp.com wrote:
> Thanks for the discussion.
>
> UPDATE: Just now I switched the two bright green wires going to the
> firewall solenoid. When I connected the battery nothing happened
> (that's good!) but when I tried to crank it nothing happened (that's
> bad!). I did get lights on my dash, don't know what that means. I'm
> fairly confident that I had them in the right place to begin with as
> the copper fins they connect to are different - one is slotted and
> one is not.
>
> Just out of curiosity, what are the wires going to and coming out of
> the solenoid? On the left we have current in from the battery and
> three other dark green (?) wires. All those are mashed together by a
> nut on the left hand bolt. On the right we have one big wire going
> from the solenoid to the starter. There are two bolts on the front of
> the solenoid. On the left-front bolt there is a copper fin with a
> bright green wire coming off of it. On the right front bolt there is
> another copper fin with another bright green wire coming off. Also on
> the right front bolt is a wire with a rubber booted connector that
> slides over the front of the bolt. I understand two wires - "battery
> in" and "out to starter". What/where do all those other wires do/go?
> How does the ignition switch talk to the solenoid? I'm an engineer
> and I just don't feel right unless I understand what I'm working with!
>
> Thanks for the help.
>

 

Did anything else act strange or not work right now?

The orange wires keep screaming at the back of my mind. If one of those
orange wires that seem to be all over the place short out, it can be
related to your symptoms. Where the exhaust crosses the back of the
engine comes to mind and the 4x4 light circuit to the t-case.

I have also seen the choke wire melt short against the intake manifold
which also affect the starter relay and kept the starter going.

I am thinking short because the lights work when the maybe shorted wire
was taken out of the circuit by your green wire swap.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

lsaugier@hilcorp.com wrote:
> Thanks for the discussion.
>
> UPDATE: Just now I switched the two bright green wires going to the
> firewall solenoid. When I connected the battery nothing happened
> (that's good!) but when I tried to crank it nothing happened (that's
> bad!). I did get lights on my dash, don't know what that means. I'm
> fairly confident that I had them in the right place to begin with as
> the copper fins they connect to are different - one is slotted and
> one is not.
>
> Just out of curiosity, what are the wires going to and coming out of
> the solenoid? On the left we have current in from the battery and
> three other dark green (?) wires. All those are mashed together by a
> nut on the left hand bolt. On the right we have one big wire going
> from the solenoid to the starter. There are two bolts on the front of
> the solenoid. On the left-front bolt there is a copper fin with a
> bright green wire coming off of it. On the right front bolt there is
> another copper fin with another bright green wire coming off. Also on
> the right front bolt is a wire with a rubber booted connector that
> slides over the front of the bolt. I understand two wires - "battery
> in" and "out to starter". What/where do all those other wires do/go?
> How does the ignition switch talk to the solenoid? I'm an engineer
> and I just don't feel right unless I understand what I'm working with!
>
> Thanks for the help.
>

 

Did anything else act strange or not work right now?

The orange wires keep screaming at the back of my mind. If one of those
orange wires that seem to be all over the place short out, it can be
related to your symptoms. Where the exhaust crosses the back of the
engine comes to mind and the 4x4 light circuit to the t-case.

I have also seen the choke wire melt short against the intake manifold
which also affect the starter relay and kept the starter going.

I am thinking short because the lights work when the maybe shorted wire
was taken out of the circuit by your green wire swap.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

lsaugier@hilcorp.com wrote:
> Thanks for the discussion.
>
> UPDATE: Just now I switched the two bright green wires going to the
> firewall solenoid. When I connected the battery nothing happened
> (that's good!) but when I tried to crank it nothing happened (that's
> bad!). I did get lights on my dash, don't know what that means. I'm
> fairly confident that I had them in the right place to begin with as
> the copper fins they connect to are different - one is slotted and
> one is not.
>
> Just out of curiosity, what are the wires going to and coming out of
> the solenoid? On the left we have current in from the battery and
> three other dark green (?) wires. All those are mashed together by a
> nut on the left hand bolt. On the right we have one big wire going
> from the solenoid to the starter. There are two bolts on the front of
> the solenoid. On the left-front bolt there is a copper fin with a
> bright green wire coming off of it. On the right front bolt there is
> another copper fin with another bright green wire coming off. Also on
> the right front bolt is a wire with a rubber booted connector that
> slides over the front of the bolt. I understand two wires - "battery
> in" and "out to starter". What/where do all those other wires do/go?
> How does the ignition switch talk to the solenoid? I'm an engineer
> and I just don't feel right unless I understand what I'm working with!
>
> Thanks for the help.
>

 

Did anything else act strange or not work right now?

The orange wires keep screaming at the back of my mind. If one of those
orange wires that seem to be all over the place short out, it can be
related to your symptoms. Where the exhaust crosses the back of the
engine comes to mind and the 4x4 light circuit to the t-case.

I have also seen the choke wire melt short against the intake manifold
which also affect the starter relay and kept the starter going.

I am thinking short because the lights work when the maybe shorted wire
was taken out of the circuit by your green wire swap.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

lsaugier@hilcorp.com wrote:
> Thanks for the discussion.
>
> UPDATE: Just now I switched the two bright green wires going to the
> firewall solenoid. When I connected the battery nothing happened
> (that's good!) but when I tried to crank it nothing happened (that's
> bad!). I did get lights on my dash, don't know what that means. I'm
> fairly confident that I had them in the right place to begin with as
> the copper fins they connect to are different - one is slotted and
> one is not.
>
> Just out of curiosity, what are the wires going to and coming out of
> the solenoid? On the left we have current in from the battery and
> three other dark green (?) wires. All those are mashed together by a
> nut on the left hand bolt. On the right we have one big wire going
> from the solenoid to the starter. There are two bolts on the front of
> the solenoid. On the left-front bolt there is a copper fin with a
> bright green wire coming off of it. On the right front bolt there is
> another copper fin with another bright green wire coming off. Also on
> the right front bolt is a wire with a rubber booted connector that
> slides over the front of the bolt. I understand two wires - "battery
> in" and "out to starter". What/where do all those other wires do/go?
> How does the ignition switch talk to the solenoid? I'm an engineer
> and I just don't feel right unless I understand what I'm working with!
>
> Thanks for the help.
>

 

On 19 May 2007 10:30:50 -0700, lsaugier@hilcorp.com wrote:

>Thanks for the discussion.
>
>UPDATE: Just now I switched the two bright green wires going to the
>firewall solenoid. When I connected the battery nothing happened
>(that's good!) but when I tried to crank it nothing happened (that's
>bad!). I did get lights on my dash, don't know what that means. I'm
>fairly confident that I had them in the right place to begin with as
>the copper fins they connect to are different - one is slotted and
>one is not.
>
>Just out of curiosity, what are the wires going to and coming out of
>the solenoid? On the left we have current in from the battery and
>three other dark green (?) wires. All those are mashed together by a
>nut on the left hand bolt. On the right we have one big wire going
>from the solenoid to the starter. There are two bolts on the front of
>the solenoid. On the left-front bolt there is a copper fin with a
>bright green wire coming off of it. On the right front bolt there is
>another copper fin with another bright green wire coming off. Also on
>the right front bolt is a wire with a rubber booted connector that
>slides over the front of the bolt. I understand two wires - "battery
>in" and "out to starter". What/where do all those other wires do/go?
>How does the ignition switch talk to the solenoid? I'm an engineer
>and I just don't feel right unless I understand what I'm working with!
>
>Thanks for the help.

The two big connections at the starter relay, as you know, are from
the battery and to the starter. The group of wires on the battery
connection side are fusible links. These are designed to open, in the
case of a short, to save the harness. They feed battery voltage to
the ignition switch, fuse panel, etc.

There are also two small terminals on the front of the relay. One is
the crank signal from the ign. switch. This wire should have power on
it (when disconnected from the relay) only when the key is in the
crank position. The other one is voltage out from the relay to the
ignition system to supply battery voltage while cranking. The wire for
that terminal (when disconnected from the relay) will have voltage on
it when the key is in the 'on' position.

 

On 19 May 2007 10:30:50 -0700, lsaugier@hilcorp.com wrote:

>Thanks for the discussion.
>
>UPDATE: Just now I switched the two bright green wires going to the
>firewall solenoid. When I connected the battery nothing happened
>(that's good!) but when I tried to crank it nothing happened (that's
>bad!). I did get lights on my dash, don't know what that means. I'm
>fairly confident that I had them in the right place to begin with as
>the copper fins they connect to are different - one is slotted and
>one is not.
>
>Just out of curiosity, what are the wires going to and coming out of
>the solenoid? On the left we have current in from the battery and
>three other dark green (?) wires. All those are mashed together by a
>nut on the left hand bolt. On the right we have one big wire going
>from the solenoid to the starter. There are two bolts on the front of
>the solenoid. On the left-front bolt there is a copper fin with a
>bright green wire coming off of it. On the right front bolt there is
>another copper fin with another bright green wire coming off. Also on
>the right front bolt is a wire with a rubber booted connector that
>slides over the front of the bolt. I understand two wires - "battery
>in" and "out to starter". What/where do all those other wires do/go?
>How does the ignition switch talk to the solenoid? I'm an engineer
>and I just don't feel right unless I understand what I'm working with!
>
>Thanks for the help.

The two big connections at the starter relay, as you know, are from
the battery and to the starter. The group of wires on the battery
connection side are fusible links. These are designed to open, in the
case of a short, to save the harness. They feed battery voltage to
the ignition switch, fuse panel, etc.

There are also two small terminals on the front of the relay. One is
the crank signal from the ign. switch. This wire should have power on
it (when disconnected from the relay) only when the key is in the
crank position. The other one is voltage out from the relay to the
ignition system to supply battery voltage while cranking. The wire for
that terminal (when disconnected from the relay) will have voltage on
it when the key is in the 'on' position.

 

On 19 May 2007 10:30:50 -0700, lsaugier@hilcorp.com wrote:

>Thanks for the discussion.
>
>UPDATE: Just now I switched the two bright green wires going to the
>firewall solenoid. When I connected the battery nothing happened
>(that's good!) but when I tried to crank it nothing happened (that's
>bad!). I did get lights on my dash, don't know what that means. I'm
>fairly confident that I had them in the right place to begin with as
>the copper fins they connect to are different - one is slotted and
>one is not.
>
>Just out of curiosity, what are the wires going to and coming out of
>the solenoid? On the left we have current in from the battery and
>three other dark green (?) wires. All those are mashed together by a
>nut on the left hand bolt. On the right we have one big wire going
>from the solenoid to the starter. There are two bolts on the front of
>the solenoid. On the left-front bolt there is a copper fin with a
>bright green wire coming off of it. On the right front bolt there is
>another copper fin with another bright green wire coming off. Also on
>the right front bolt is a wire with a rubber booted connector that
>slides over the front of the bolt. I understand two wires - "battery
>in" and "out to starter". What/where do all those other wires do/go?
>How does the ignition switch talk to the solenoid? I'm an engineer
>and I just don't feel right unless I understand what I'm working with!
>
>Thanks for the help.

The two big connections at the starter relay, as you know, are from
the battery and to the starter. The group of wires on the battery
connection side are fusible links. These are designed to open, in the
case of a short, to save the harness. They feed battery voltage to
the ignition switch, fuse panel, etc.

There are also two small terminals on the front of the relay. One is
the crank signal from the ign. switch. This wire should have power on
it (when disconnected from the relay) only when the key is in the
crank position. The other one is voltage out from the relay to the
ignition system to supply battery voltage while cranking. The wire for
that terminal (when disconnected from the relay) will have voltage on
it when the key is in the 'on' position.

 

On 19 May 2007 10:30:50 -0700, lsaugier@hilcorp.com wrote:

>Thanks for the discussion.
>
>UPDATE: Just now I switched the two bright green wires going to the
>firewall solenoid. When I connected the battery nothing happened
>(that's good!) but when I tried to crank it nothing happened (that's
>bad!). I did get lights on my dash, don't know what that means. I'm
>fairly confident that I had them in the right place to begin with as
>the copper fins they connect to are different - one is slotted and
>one is not.
>
>Just out of curiosity, what are the wires going to and coming out of
>the solenoid? On the left we have current in from the battery and
>three other dark green (?) wires. All those are mashed together by a
>nut on the left hand bolt. On the right we have one big wire going
>from the solenoid to the starter. There are two bolts on the front of
>the solenoid. On the left-front bolt there is a copper fin with a
>bright green wire coming off of it. On the right front bolt there is
>another copper fin with another bright green wire coming off. Also on
>the right front bolt is a wire with a rubber booted connector that
>slides over the front of the bolt. I understand two wires - "battery
>in" and "out to starter". What/where do all those other wires do/go?
>How does the ignition switch talk to the solenoid? I'm an engineer
>and I just don't feel right unless I understand what I'm working with!
>
>Thanks for the help.

The two big connections at the starter relay, as you know, are from
the battery and to the starter. The group of wires on the battery
connection side are fusible links. These are designed to open, in the
case of a short, to save the harness. They feed battery voltage to
the ignition switch, fuse panel, etc.

There are also two small terminals on the front of the relay. One is
the crank signal from the ign. switch. This wire should have power on
it (when disconnected from the relay) only when the key is in the
crank position. The other one is voltage out from the relay to the
ignition system to supply battery voltage while cranking. The wire for
that terminal (when disconnected from the relay) will have voltage on
it when the key is in the 'on' position.

 

Again, many thanks for the discussion.

RESOLUTION: I seem to have fixed the problem which, as it turns out,
was decidedly low tech. The linkage (the rod that goes from the key
lock on the steering column down to the actual ignition switch at the
base) was gummed up and a little rusty. The rod itself actually gets
stuck in the start position. I discovered this after taking off the
dash panel and looking at how the rod moved while trying to locate the
ignition switch. Just for fun, I used the key to lock it (for the
first time in over four years) and it broke the linkage loose. We
tested the starter to confirm it would turn off and it worked just
fine. Looks like a little WD-40 is in order.