Re: Why Jeeps suck.
 

Kenneth,

The hostility you are hearing is from the fact that your situation is
surreal. You have an older Jeep, you've been in this group before, and you
still bought a Liberty believing it was heavy duty off-road capable. Then
you took it to one of the most challenging places and messed it up. Then
you wanted Chrysler to pay for the damage.

It is your judgment being challenged. Personally, I do not intend this as
an attack, I am simply stating this seems beyond belief.

Since you so passionately stick to the story I will assume it to be true. I
bought a new Avalanche a year ago but the only off-road use it gets is when
I tow my Jeep with it to the trailhead. I have heard of those taking it
off-road and breaking them. It happens - an expensive mistake.

I guess it comes down to the information as it was presented to you. The
collective wisdom of this group was outweighed by a commission-hungry car
salesman.

Jim

--
'86 CJ-7
D30 D44 D300 4:1 T-5
SOA ARB 4.56 Mopar MPI
Fresno, CA USA
http://home.comcast.net/~cj.7/



"Kenneth Garman" <kenny_g@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:c7ff7456.0308150407.6e640d8e@posting.google.c om...
> jmeyer21@aol.com (Jim Meyer) wrote:
>
> > Per an posting you sent earlier this month, you have an older Jeep.
> >
> > Now you bought a new Liberty and took it Moab? It doesn't smell
right...
> >
>
> So what? I don't see what a broken down 30 year old AMC-built beater
> has to do with the situation on the new Liberty. Is there some secret
> rule here that you're only allowed to own one vehicle at a time?
>
> I also don't understand why there is so much hostility and negative
> resposne to me here. What, are you all investors in the stock of
> Third Reich motors, err, I mean, Daimler Chrysler Corporation?
>
> Maybe it is "obvious" to you blue collar people who have been raised
> as grease monkeys and could build your own jeep from some spare wiring
> and raw sheet metal, but the vast majority of the public buys a car
> for a specific purpose as advertised by the manufacturer, and can't
> change their own oil or flat tire, much less re-engineer the
> automobile to determine if it's appropriate for a particular use
> contrary to the manufacturer's statements. If I bought a truck, I
> would expect it to have a cargo bed. If I bought an economy coupe, I
> would expect it to get good gas mileage. When I bought a jeep, I
> expected it to be able to go off road.
>
> Much has been made by the brainwashed Chrysler slaves here of how the
> Liberty is so much worse than the other jeep lines. Well even if
> that's true, how is the typical consumer supposed to know that? Yes,
> I know that all true jeep geniuses such as you people are born with
> the knowledge already programmed into their infant brains, but what
> about the rest of us mortals? The Liberty is proclaimed in all
> Chrylser publications as merely another member of the jeep line. All
> the commercials show it right along with hte Grand Cherokee and
> Wrangler, each climbing happily over rocks together. They even say
> in their literature that all JEep vehicles - Liberty included - are
> Rubicon capable. NOWHERE is it EVER pointed out that one jeep vehicle
> might be less capable than others.

Re: Why Jeeps suck.
 

"Kenneth Garman" <kenny_g@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:c7ff7456.0308132106.7f2093c7@posting.google.c om...
> enfermero_diabolico@registerednurses.com (Earle Horton, Student Nurse)
wrote in message news:<c4fb6539.0308131438.10a08c3a@posting.google. com>...
> > kenny_g@ev1.net (Kenneth Garman) wrote in message
news:<c7ff7456.0308131028.64077c00@posting.google. com>...
> > > I realize the title of this message is somewhat inflammatory, and no
> > > offense is intended to those few of you who have built a worthwhile
> > > jeep out of aftermarket parts or your own ingenuity. But the vehicles
> > > as they are being offered for sale by Chrysler corporation are
> > > absolutely worthless off-road.
> > >
> > This is beautiful, but I have some questions.
> >
> > Ken, are you a Liberty basher who made this all up to "dis"
> > DaimlerChrysler Corporation?
> >
> > If this is all true, then where did you learn to drive? I have seen
> > Honda CRVs on the "intermediate" to "expert" trails above Silverton,
> > CO, where I live. These are by no means hard core rock crawling
> > trails, but definitely qualify as "off-road," at least in my book.
> > You gotta watch what's in front of you and feel what's underneath, and
> > then you won't go losing your exhaust system like you did.
> >
> > Earle
>
> No, and I drive just fine, thank you for asking.

In nursing school this is what they call "verbal non-verbal incongruency" in
communication. "I drive just fine," but I had to leave my muffler on some
trail in Moab...

Earle

Re: Why Jeeps suck.
 

Say Ken, do you have any pictures of your Liberty you want to put on the
web, and post a link here? I think that that would be helpful.

"Kenneth Garman," crybaby <kenny_g@ev1.net> spewed formula all over his
monitor and keyboard as he wrote in message
news:c7ff7456.0308150407.6e640d8e@posting.google.c om...
SNIPPY
>
> I also don't understand why there is so much hostility and negative
> resposne to me here. What, are you all investors in the stock of
> Third Reich motors, err, I mean, Daimler Chrysler Corporation?

It is because you were an idiot and expected the Liberty to have some magic
ability to compensate for your lack of driving ability. No matter what kind
of vehicle you are driving, you don't drive over things that are big enough
to rip stuff off the bottom of it. You don't even do this with a Cat D9
'dozer, unless you want to get high centered, crush your belly pan, and have
the other 'dozer operators make jokes about you.

>
> Maybe it is "obvious" to you blue collar people who have been raised
> as grease monkeys and could build your own jeep from some spare wiring

Lol, we are not all blue collar people, raised as grease monkeys (except
maybe Nathan and Bill ;o). We are for the most part sensible people who got
into off roading gradually. As in anything, you have to walk before you can
crawl. Most of us who go off road started off with logging roads, beaches,
a pasture, or "beginner" trails, drove around there a bit, and bit by bit
moved up to more difficult terrain. When we get a new vehicle, we test it
likewise before taking it to the big boy trails, and when we get there we
feel our way, slowly, until we are used to the trail and how the rig behaves
on it. It takes some skill to drive on the more difficult trails. Heck, it
takes some skill to drive on a graded gravel road. It is like anything
else; if you attempt it without the skill or with the wrong equipment, you
are going to get hurt or break something.

You have the opportunity to learn something here. If you seriously want to
get into off roading as a hobby, you now have some information that will let
you approach it in a more intelligent manner in the future. If you want to
behave like a spoiled little boy who broke his new toy on the first outing
because he had the wrong toy and didn't know how to use it, you can blame
everyone else for your problems.

> ...NOWHERE is it EVER pointed out that one jeep vehicle
> might be less capable than others.

No where is it pointed out that a Liberty is not a Cat D9 'dozer either.
What an idiot.

Earle

Re: Why Jeeps suck.
 

> The hostility you are hearing is from the fact that your situation is
> surreal. You have an older Jeep, you've been in this group before, and you
> still bought a Liberty believing it was heavy duty off-road capable. Then
> you took it to one of the most challenging places and messed it up. Then
> you wanted Chrysler to pay for the damage.

No, I had never been on this group before, and I bought the liberty
before coming here. Needless to say if I had read here about the
Liberty first, I would not have bought it.

I probably would not have bought any kind of off road vehicle in fact,
since I am not a mechanic. What I want is something I can drive off
the dealer's lot and go off roading with. Maybe one Jeep model is
more capable than the next, maybe not, but the general impression I
get is that none of them are that great without extensive
modification. Someone summed it up earlier by saying that "real jeeps
are built not bought."

Well, that seems unfortunate because a lot of people like me would
enjoy four wheeling but aren't qualified to build their own vehicle.
I don't have to sew my own wetsuit to scuba dive; I don't have to
fabricate my own parachute to skydive; I don't have to solder
together my own silicon to log on to the internet. So why should I
have to build my own jeep? Why do so many people want to keep
4-wheeling so elitist and restricted? In fact, from all I've read
bemoaning how 4-wheelers are so persecuted by environmentalists and
all the good lands are being shut off due to lack of political clout,
I would think you folks would be trying to encourage every Tom ----
and Harry to join your hobby, not run off beginners such as myself.
(Needless to say after this experience I won't feel too charitable
about voting in favor of any candidate or issue who favors 4-wheeling
next time the issue comes up.)

Anyway, to answer your question, my son (who does not have his own
computer) has also used my account in the past to get on the internet.
I believe he asked some questions in a different newsgroup about some
mechanical problems he was having on an unrelated vehicle. (One which
I advised against purchasing, I might add.) Some yahoo brought that
into this discussion in an apparent attempt to change the subject or
make me look dumb, but it's really not relevant to the matter at hand.
It was not me who brought that whole point into this conversation.

I do apologize for the comments about grease monkeys, etc. I flew
off the handle and I shouldn't have. I didn't expect to be
mercilessly ridiculed for sharing my story. (At least not by the
majority of people, there is always some lone jerk on the internet.)
But if you look at the 100+ messages in response to me, about 90% of
them are really nasty, calling me names, laughing at my experience,
saying I shouldn't be allowed to drive without a babysitter, and so
on. There are one or two people who have politely disagreed or even
made constructive points, but the vast majority decided it was just
time to make fun of the new guy and see if they can drive him off.
Well, they succeeded, so this is the last you will hear from Ken
Garman. Next time I am tempted to come to this jeep forum and make
conversation or read the comments I will reconsider and do something
more pleasurable, like tearing my fingernails off with a pair of
pliers.

Re: Why Jeeps suck.
 

"Kenneth Garman" <kenny_g@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:c7ff7456.0308150407.6e640d8e@posting.google.c om...
> jmeyer21@aol.com (Jim Meyer) wrote:
>
> > Per an posting you sent earlier this month, you have an older Jeep.
> >
> > Now you bought a new Liberty and took it Moab? It doesn't smell
right...
> >
>
> So what? I don't see what a broken down 30 year old AMC-built beater
> has to do with the situation on the new Liberty. Is there some secret
> rule here that you're only allowed to own one vehicle at a time?
>
> I also don't understand why there is so much hostility and negative
> resposne to me here. What, are you all investors in the stock of
> Third Reich motors, err, I mean, Daimler Chrysler Corporation?
>
> Maybe it is "obvious" to you blue collar people who have been raised
> as grease monkeys and could build your own jeep from some spare wiring
> and raw sheet metal, but the vast majority of the public buys a car
> for a specific purpose as advertised by the manufacturer, and can't
> change their own oil or flat tire, much less re-engineer the
> automobile to determine if it's appropriate for a particular use
> contrary to the manufacturer's statements. If I bought a truck, I
> would expect it to have a cargo bed. If I bought an economy coupe, I
> would expect it to get good gas mileage. When I bought a jeep, I
> expected it to be able to go off road.
>
> Much has been made by the brainwashed Chrysler slaves here of how the
> Liberty is so much worse than the other jeep lines. Well even if
> that's true, how is the typical consumer supposed to know that? Yes,
> I know that all true jeep geniuses such as you people are born with
> the knowledge already programmed into their infant brains, but what
> about the rest of us mortals? The Liberty is proclaimed in all
> Chrylser publications as merely another member of the jeep line. All
> the commercials show it right along with hte Grand Cherokee and
> Wrangler, each climbing happily over rocks together. They even say
> in their literature that all JEep vehicles - Liberty included - are
> Rubicon capable. NOWHERE is it EVER pointed out that one jeep vehicle
> might be less capable than others.



I am sorry you got so much negativism after such a bad experience.

My personal thoughts are that the Libby is a fine vehicle, it is just not
meant for serioius offroad work. the IFS (independent front suspension) is
not cut out for offroad duty. The only IFS equipped machines you see doing
serious offroad work are heavily modified. There is a reason the desert
racers put much wider front axles on their trucks, and that reason is to
improve the range of motion that is available. It should be obvious that a
short axle will not be able to move very far, and a longer axle will travel
further given the same range of movement when measured in degrees from the
fulcrum. That is, a tire will move further over 15 degrees if it is further
from the fulcrum (in the case of suspension systems, the center point of its
mounting to the frame). In the narrow axle of the KJ, an IFS is inherently
limited in its travel. The result will be that important (and expensive)
parts will drag on the ground, and potentially be torn from the bottom of
the vehicle.

The KJ also has an inherent limitation in its rack and pinion steering
system. R&P is not a bad system in itself, it just is not robust enough for
serious offroading. R&P, like IFS, is better suited for highway travels.
Generally speaking, ANYTHING that makes highway travel safer and more
comfortable will present limitations for offroading. Which brings me to the
KJs motor. The I6 motor is much better suited for offroading because it
develops something like 80% of its available torque at speeds just above
idle speed. The V6 also gives impressive torque figures, but it does't
product its torque until the engine speed is almost too high to be useful
for offroad travel. The torque curve of the V6 is better suited for highway
travel than for offroading.

The KJ can do some things offroad that other vehicles in its class can not
even begin to do, but the Libby is a far cry from the XJ. We, the true
offroad community, feel slighted at DCs decision to replace the XJ with the
KJ. They told us for a long time that the KJ would be an added model to the
line-up, but at the last minute, it became a replacement model. Had they
asked us first, we would have advised against a marketing plan that took the
last solid axle, I6, SUV out of the line up and replaced it with a V6, IFS.
We would have encouraged the new configuration it was added to the line up
as a new model, but we do not think it is a good replacement model.

Re: Why Jeeps suck.
 

"Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vjq8gsoj24vacd@corp.supernews.com...
> The I6 motor is much better suited for offroading because it
> develops something like 80% of its available torque at speeds just above
> idle speed.

d/c claims 85% AT IDLE.


> They told us for a long time that the KJ would be an added model to the
> line-up, but at the last minute, it became a replacement model.

think back....jeep said the SAME THING about the wrangler being added to the
cj line-up. this seems to be a consistent pattern.


--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com

Re: Why Jeeps suck.
 

Approximately 8/15/03 05:07, Kenneth Garman uttered for posterity:

> jmeyer21@aol.com (Jim Meyer) wrote:
>
>> Per an posting you sent earlier this month, you have an older Jeep.
>> Now you bought a new Liberty and took it Moab? It doesn't smell right...
>>

It does if he is a really really stupid putz. And if there is anyone
with any doubt that he is the poster child for dump putz, keep reading
the whining.
>
> So what? I don't see what a broken down 30 year old AMC-built beater
> has to do with the situation on the new Liberty. Is there some secret
> rule here that you're only allowed to own one vehicle at a time?

Nah, just that you are expected to have sufficient intellect to
have a clue, or at least enough pocket change to buy one when
you need it.

>
> I also don't understand why there is so much hostility and negative
> resposne to me here.

Because you are a dumb putz, and that is being extremely
charitable.

Worse, you are exactly what is *wrong* with offroad vehicles
these days and why the good ones are all disappearing. Some
dumb putz with the brains of a baked toad and the driving
skills of a flea goes out and buys a vehicle that makes him
feel all butch. Then said putz heads for difficult offroad
driving areas and busts up the vehicle. Sadly, the putz
survives and pieces of the vehicle don't.

> What, are you all investors in the stock of
> Third Reich motors, err, I mean, Daimler Chrysler Corporation?

You really *are* a dumb putz aren't you.

I suppose next you will buy an Isuzu and complain when
it can't outrun a bullet.

With your concept of the total lack of brains and responsibility
on the driver, I will bet big bucks that you could trash a
Humvee or 3/4 ton tac vehicle due to your braindead driving
tactic of simply neglecting to check clearance and trail.

>
> Maybe it is "obvious" to you blue collar people who have been raised
> as grease monkeys and could build your own jeep from some spare wiring
> and raw sheet metal, but the vast majority of the public buys a car
> for a specific purpose as advertised by the manufacturer, and can't
> change their own oil or flat tire, much less re-engineer the
> automobile to determine if it's appropriate for a particular use
> contrary to the manufacturer's statements. If I bought a truck, I
> would expect it to have a cargo bed. If I bought an economy coupe, I
> would expect it to get good gas mileage. When I bought a jeep, I
> expected it to be able to go off road.

As noted, you are the poster child of what is wrong with
modern off-road vehicles. Without the slightest skill set
or homework, you take a perfectly good offroad vehicle into
terrain above *your* driving skill level.


> Much has been made by the brainwashed Chrysler slaves here of how the
> Liberty is so much worse than the other jeep lines. Well even if
> that's true, how is the typical consumer supposed to know that?

We don't know. None of us are typical consumers. Perhaps you
should subscribe to Consumer Reports, which seems more suited
to your style.


> Yes,
> I know that all true jeep geniuses such as you people are born with
> the knowledge already programmed into their infant brains, but what
> about the rest of us mortals? The Liberty is proclaimed in all
> Chrylser publications as merely another member of the jeep line. All
> the commercials show it right along with hte Grand Cherokee and
> Wrangler, each climbing happily over rocks together. They even say
> in their literature that all JEep vehicles - Liberty included - are
> Rubicon capable. NOWHERE is it EVER pointed out that one jeep vehicle
> might be less capable than others.

Ya know, if I were as obviously stupid as you are, I really don't
think I'd be blasting it all over the internet.

I drive a Grand Cherokee. There are trails around Moab I wouldn't
even *think* of trying. However, since the concept of thought is
so obviously foreign to you, next we suppose you'll be trying it
in your BMW X-5 or Nissan Murano.

Re: Why Jeeps suck.
 

Approximately 8/15/03 06:18, someone uttered for posterity:

> "Kenneth Garman" <kenny_g@ev1.net> wrote in message
> news:c7ff7456.0308150407.6e640d8e@posting.google.c om...
>> I also don't understand why there is so much hostility and negative
>> resposne to me here. What, are you all investors in the stock of
>> Third Reich motors, err, I mean, Daimler Chrysler Corporation?
>
> No, it's just because you're an IDIOT!

Please. An idiot is someone with an IQ between 10 and 20.
This is about 50 points more than our Super Offroad Liberty Driver
has demonstrated.

Re: Why Jeeps suck.
 

TJim wrote:

> Yeah, sell the libby and get an Aztec. Now, *there's* a hardcore offroad
> vehicle!

Question: Can an Aztek go far enough off road to even need that tent you can
add on?

Re: Why Jeeps suck.
 

your answer lies in the second paragraph. Jeep Liberty. it is not a jeep.

--
91yj@twave.net
"Kenneth Garman" <kenny_g@ev1.net> wrote in message news:c7ff7456.0308131028.64077c00@posting.google.c om...
I realize the title of this message is somewhat inflammatory, and no
offense is intended to those few of you who have built a worthwhile
jeep out of aftermarket parts or your own ingenuity. But the vehicles
as they are being offered for sale by Chrysler corporation are
absolutely worthless off-road.

About 4 months ago I took delivery of my new Jeep Liberty. The main
reason I bought a jeep instead of some other kind of car was because
of the tough off-road features touted in Jeep commercials. I wanted a
vehicle capable of going anywhere, so I let the dealer talk me into
all the recommended accessories for hard core 4-wheeling, such as
light bar, tubular side steps, and hood cover. I outfitted myself with
nearly everything in the mopar catalog! Needless to say I paid top
dollar for this package, but that was what I wanted, so that I could
go jeeping in tough terrain.

Well, after breaking in the Liberty for a couple thousand miles I set
off for Moab. I was ready to experience the true "Jeep Lifestyle."
Much to my dismay, I immediately found the innards of my car scraping
and grinding all over the place. I got stuck repeatedly. I
understand that occasionally getting stuck is part of four wheeling,
but this was ridiculous; I wasn't going anywhere and was routinely
being passed up by people in other kinds of vehicles. Finally a
particularly bad rock ripped loose the exhaust and I was done in.
Total time in Moab, less than 1 day. Total off road miles covered,
less than one. I limped back home to a massive repair bill. (In
addition to the exhaust, this minimal amount of off roading apparently
damaged several other systems as well, the damage just wasn't so
obvious.)

Needless to say, the Jeep dealer looked at me like I was crazy when I
wanted this damage covered under the warranty. "But Jeeps are
advertised and specifically marketed for hard-core offroading!" I
protested. "That's why I bought the jeep! I told you that when I
bought it!" And here are the exact words of his reply, straight from
the Jeep dealer's mouth: "Don't be ridiculous. These Jeeps are not
intended for serious off road use."

So there you have it, direct from the official designated
representative of Chrysler corporation. The 4-wheeling ability of
Jeeps is ppurely a marketing ploy, but in truth they are about as
off-road worthy as your typical Kia. (They should put that disclaimer
on their commercials or be found guilty of deceptive advertising.)

I will be selling the Liberty as soon as I can find a buyer for this
piece of junk, and then I will cut my losses and buy what I probably
should have bought in the first place: A nice luxury sedan, by any
manufacturer other than Chrysler. As for Jeeps, I will never buy one
again, and I intend to badmouth the brand to everyone who will listen.

I hope my relating this experience in this public forum will save some
other unfortunate sucker from the mistake of buying one of these
pieces of junk!