Drink

Hey Folks,
I have a '76 CJ-7 with 33" tires on 11" drum brakes all around (brakes
from the factory and Jeep has a build date of Sep '75). [I know 33" mud
tires weren't a factory option:)] Anyway, brakes have always been weak and
I have to stand on 'em to make it stop. Shoes, wheel cylinders, hoses and
master cylinder are all new/great shape and bled the system. Drums have
been turned at Least once and I've never bled the proportioning valve.
First thing in the morning, when it's cool, I often get stop-on-a-dime
performance for the first stop. After that, it takes a strong leg to stop
and need to downshift to stop fast.
How big a difference can bleeding the proportioning valve make? Do you
think the drums are past tolerance and how much of a difference could that
make?
Drink

Mike Romain

You are describing all the CJ brakes I have ever seen....

I have 33's and power front disks and need to stand on the pedal to stop
fast. My old tenant had an 85 with standard and front disks and if
anything his was easier than mine to stop, but still took a good push.

I have never heard of anyone 'bleeding' a combination or proportioning
valve. Either they work or they are garbage. If you do get air trapped
in them, there will be no mistake, the pedal will be spongy. Air is
supposed to bleed through them or they are broken....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/in...?id=2120343242
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Drink wrote:
>
> Hey Folks,
> I have a '76 CJ-7 with 33" tires on 11" drum brakes all around (brakes
> from the factory and Jeep has a build date of Sep '75). [I know 33" mud
> tires weren't a factory option:)] Anyway, brakes have always been weak and
> I have to stand on 'em to make it stop. Shoes, wheel cylinders, hoses and
> master cylinder are all new/great shape and bled the system. Drums have
> been turned at Least once and I've never bled the proportioning valve.
> First thing in the morning, when it's cool, I often get stop-on-a-dime
> performance for the first stop. After that, it takes a strong leg to stop
> and need to downshift to stop fast.
> How big a difference can bleeding the proportioning valve make? Do you
> think the drums are past tolerance and how much of a difference could that
> make?
> Drink

Mike Romain

You are describing all the CJ brakes I have ever seen....

I have 33's and power front disks and need to stand on the pedal to stop
fast. My old tenant had an 85 with standard and front disks and if
anything his was easier than mine to stop, but still took a good push.

I have never heard of anyone 'bleeding' a combination or proportioning
valve. Either they work or they are garbage. If you do get air trapped
in them, there will be no mistake, the pedal will be spongy. Air is
supposed to bleed through them or they are broken....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/in...?id=2120343242
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Drink wrote:
>
> Hey Folks,
> I have a '76 CJ-7 with 33" tires on 11" drum brakes all around (brakes
> from the factory and Jeep has a build date of Sep '75). [I know 33" mud
> tires weren't a factory option:)] Anyway, brakes have always been weak and
> I have to stand on 'em to make it stop. Shoes, wheel cylinders, hoses and
> master cylinder are all new/great shape and bled the system. Drums have
> been turned at Least once and I've never bled the proportioning valve.
> First thing in the morning, when it's cool, I often get stop-on-a-dime
> performance for the first stop. After that, it takes a strong leg to stop
> and need to downshift to stop fast.
> How big a difference can bleeding the proportioning valve make? Do you
> think the drums are past tolerance and how much of a difference could that
> make?
> Drink

Mike Romain

You are describing all the CJ brakes I have ever seen....

I have 33's and power front disks and need to stand on the pedal to stop
fast. My old tenant had an 85 with standard and front disks and if
anything his was easier than mine to stop, but still took a good push.

I have never heard of anyone 'bleeding' a combination or proportioning
valve. Either they work or they are garbage. If you do get air trapped
in them, there will be no mistake, the pedal will be spongy. Air is
supposed to bleed through them or they are broken....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/in...?id=2120343242
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Drink wrote:
>
> Hey Folks,
> I have a '76 CJ-7 with 33" tires on 11" drum brakes all around (brakes
> from the factory and Jeep has a build date of Sep '75). [I know 33" mud
> tires weren't a factory option:)] Anyway, brakes have always been weak and
> I have to stand on 'em to make it stop. Shoes, wheel cylinders, hoses and
> master cylinder are all new/great shape and bled the system. Drums have
> been turned at Least once and I've never bled the proportioning valve.
> First thing in the morning, when it's cool, I often get stop-on-a-dime
> performance for the first stop. After that, it takes a strong leg to stop
> and need to downshift to stop fast.
> How big a difference can bleeding the proportioning valve make? Do you
> think the drums are past tolerance and how much of a difference could that
> make?
> Drink

RoyJ

The fact that the brakes really work in the morning makes me think that
the primary shoe is grabbing much tighter when it is wet/cold/rusted.
This is a characteristic of certain high metalic content brake shoes.
You might want to try some shoes with higher organic content. (not as
good in either water or high heat but there may be a compromise.

But your proportioning valve must be clamped open (pin on the end either
pushed or pulled depending on model) while bleeding in order to get good
operation. You would be surprised at how bad the barkes can get if one
of the shoe or one of the circuits is not running correctly.

Grinding your drums over tolerance is a federal law no no, the shop
should have checked before turning them. But in any case, the issue will
be hot performance, not cold or normal operation.

Drink wrote:
> Hey Folks,
> I have a '76 CJ-7 with 33" tires on 11" drum brakes all around (brakes
> from the factory and Jeep has a build date of Sep '75). [I know 33" mud
> tires weren't a factory option:)] Anyway, brakes have always been weak and
> I have to stand on 'em to make it stop. Shoes, wheel cylinders, hoses and
> master cylinder are all new/great shape and bled the system. Drums have
> been turned at Least once and I've never bled the proportioning valve.
> First thing in the morning, when it's cool, I often get stop-on-a-dime
> performance for the first stop. After that, it takes a strong leg to stop
> and need to downshift to stop fast.
> How big a difference can bleeding the proportioning valve make? Do you
> think the drums are past tolerance and how much of a difference could that
> make?
> Drink
>
>

RoyJ

The fact that the brakes really work in the morning makes me think that
the primary shoe is grabbing much tighter when it is wet/cold/rusted.
This is a characteristic of certain high metalic content brake shoes.
You might want to try some shoes with higher organic content. (not as
good in either water or high heat but there may be a compromise.

But your proportioning valve must be clamped open (pin on the end either
pushed or pulled depending on model) while bleeding in order to get good
operation. You would be surprised at how bad the barkes can get if one
of the shoe or one of the circuits is not running correctly.

Grinding your drums over tolerance is a federal law no no, the shop
should have checked before turning them. But in any case, the issue will
be hot performance, not cold or normal operation.

Drink wrote:
> Hey Folks,
> I have a '76 CJ-7 with 33" tires on 11" drum brakes all around (brakes
> from the factory and Jeep has a build date of Sep '75). [I know 33" mud
> tires weren't a factory option:)] Anyway, brakes have always been weak and
> I have to stand on 'em to make it stop. Shoes, wheel cylinders, hoses and
> master cylinder are all new/great shape and bled the system. Drums have
> been turned at Least once and I've never bled the proportioning valve.
> First thing in the morning, when it's cool, I often get stop-on-a-dime
> performance for the first stop. After that, it takes a strong leg to stop
> and need to downshift to stop fast.
> How big a difference can bleeding the proportioning valve make? Do you
> think the drums are past tolerance and how much of a difference could that
> make?
> Drink
>
>

RoyJ

The fact that the brakes really work in the morning makes me think that
the primary shoe is grabbing much tighter when it is wet/cold/rusted.
This is a characteristic of certain high metalic content brake shoes.
You might want to try some shoes with higher organic content. (not as
good in either water or high heat but there may be a compromise.

But your proportioning valve must be clamped open (pin on the end either
pushed or pulled depending on model) while bleeding in order to get good
operation. You would be surprised at how bad the barkes can get if one
of the shoe or one of the circuits is not running correctly.

Grinding your drums over tolerance is a federal law no no, the shop
should have checked before turning them. But in any case, the issue will
be hot performance, not cold or normal operation.

Drink wrote:
> Hey Folks,
> I have a '76 CJ-7 with 33" tires on 11" drum brakes all around (brakes
> from the factory and Jeep has a build date of Sep '75). [I know 33" mud
> tires weren't a factory option:)] Anyway, brakes have always been weak and
> I have to stand on 'em to make it stop. Shoes, wheel cylinders, hoses and
> master cylinder are all new/great shape and bled the system. Drums have
> been turned at Least once and I've never bled the proportioning valve.
> First thing in the morning, when it's cool, I often get stop-on-a-dime
> performance for the first stop. After that, it takes a strong leg to stop
> and need to downshift to stop fast.
> How big a difference can bleeding the proportioning valve make? Do you
> think the drums are past tolerance and how much of a difference could that
> make?
> Drink
>
>

Spdloader

Be sure to check that the brakes are properly adjusted. They should slightly
drag when spinning the wheel by hand. Only slightly.

One other thing, the rolling weight of that wheel / tire combination may
just be too much for drum brakes.

While I agree with most of what RoyJ said, I disagree with one statement:

> Grinding your drums over tolerance is a federal law no no<

Actually, it isn't a federal law no-no. The terminology is "machining past
the minimum safe diameter as set forth by the manufacturer", and doing so
will result in an unsafe condition, and the vehicle may not pass the motor
vehicle safety inspection code for your state, but the fed doesn't set the
standard for this.

Spdloader


"RoyJ" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
news:WwWuf.5859$nu6.949@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> The fact that the brakes really work in the morning makes me think that
> the primary shoe is grabbing much tighter when it is wet/cold/rusted. This
> is a characteristic of certain high metalic content brake shoes. You might
> want to try some shoes with higher organic content. (not as good in either
> water or high heat but there may be a compromise.
>
> But your proportioning valve must be clamped open (pin on the end either
> pushed or pulled depending on model) while bleeding in order to get good
> operation. You would be surprised at how bad the barkes can get if one of
> the shoe or one of the circuits is not running correctly.
>
> Grinding your drums over tolerance is a federal law no no, the shop should
> have checked before turning them. But in any case, the issue will be hot
> performance, not cold or normal operation.
>
> Drink wrote:
>> Hey Folks,
>> I have a '76 CJ-7 with 33" tires on 11" drum brakes all around (brakes
>> from the factory and Jeep has a build date of Sep '75). [I know 33" mud
>> tires weren't a factory option:)] Anyway, brakes have always been weak
>> and I have to stand on 'em to make it stop. Shoes, wheel cylinders,
>> hoses and master cylinder are all new/great shape and bled the system.
>> Drums have been turned at Least once and I've never bled the
>> proportioning valve.
>> First thing in the morning, when it's cool, I often get stop-on-a-dime
>> performance for the first stop. After that, it takes a strong leg to
>> stop and need to downshift to stop fast.
>> How big a difference can bleeding the proportioning valve make? Do you
>> think the drums are past tolerance and how much of a difference could
>> that make?
>> Drink

Spdloader

Be sure to check that the brakes are properly adjusted. They should slightly
drag when spinning the wheel by hand. Only slightly.

One other thing, the rolling weight of that wheel / tire combination may
just be too much for drum brakes.

While I agree with most of what RoyJ said, I disagree with one statement:

> Grinding your drums over tolerance is a federal law no no<

Actually, it isn't a federal law no-no. The terminology is "machining past
the minimum safe diameter as set forth by the manufacturer", and doing so
will result in an unsafe condition, and the vehicle may not pass the motor
vehicle safety inspection code for your state, but the fed doesn't set the
standard for this.

Spdloader


"RoyJ" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
news:WwWuf.5859$nu6.949@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> The fact that the brakes really work in the morning makes me think that
> the primary shoe is grabbing much tighter when it is wet/cold/rusted. This
> is a characteristic of certain high metalic content brake shoes. You might
> want to try some shoes with higher organic content. (not as good in either
> water or high heat but there may be a compromise.
>
> But your proportioning valve must be clamped open (pin on the end either
> pushed or pulled depending on model) while bleeding in order to get good
> operation. You would be surprised at how bad the barkes can get if one of
> the shoe or one of the circuits is not running correctly.
>
> Grinding your drums over tolerance is a federal law no no, the shop should
> have checked before turning them. But in any case, the issue will be hot
> performance, not cold or normal operation.
>
> Drink wrote:
>> Hey Folks,
>> I have a '76 CJ-7 with 33" tires on 11" drum brakes all around (brakes
>> from the factory and Jeep has a build date of Sep '75). [I know 33" mud
>> tires weren't a factory option:)] Anyway, brakes have always been weak
>> and I have to stand on 'em to make it stop. Shoes, wheel cylinders,
>> hoses and master cylinder are all new/great shape and bled the system.
>> Drums have been turned at Least once and I've never bled the
>> proportioning valve.
>> First thing in the morning, when it's cool, I often get stop-on-a-dime
>> performance for the first stop. After that, it takes a strong leg to
>> stop and need to downshift to stop fast.
>> How big a difference can bleeding the proportioning valve make? Do you
>> think the drums are past tolerance and how much of a difference could
>> that make?
>> Drink

Spdloader

Be sure to check that the brakes are properly adjusted. They should slightly
drag when spinning the wheel by hand. Only slightly.

One other thing, the rolling weight of that wheel / tire combination may
just be too much for drum brakes.

While I agree with most of what RoyJ said, I disagree with one statement:

> Grinding your drums over tolerance is a federal law no no<

Actually, it isn't a federal law no-no. The terminology is "machining past
the minimum safe diameter as set forth by the manufacturer", and doing so
will result in an unsafe condition, and the vehicle may not pass the motor
vehicle safety inspection code for your state, but the fed doesn't set the
standard for this.

Spdloader


"RoyJ" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
news:WwWuf.5859$nu6.949@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> The fact that the brakes really work in the morning makes me think that
> the primary shoe is grabbing much tighter when it is wet/cold/rusted. This
> is a characteristic of certain high metalic content brake shoes. You might
> want to try some shoes with higher organic content. (not as good in either
> water or high heat but there may be a compromise.
>
> But your proportioning valve must be clamped open (pin on the end either
> pushed or pulled depending on model) while bleeding in order to get good
> operation. You would be surprised at how bad the barkes can get if one of
> the shoe or one of the circuits is not running correctly.
>
> Grinding your drums over tolerance is a federal law no no, the shop should
> have checked before turning them. But in any case, the issue will be hot
> performance, not cold or normal operation.
>
> Drink wrote:
>> Hey Folks,
>> I have a '76 CJ-7 with 33" tires on 11" drum brakes all around (brakes
>> from the factory and Jeep has a build date of Sep '75). [I know 33" mud
>> tires weren't a factory option:)] Anyway, brakes have always been weak
>> and I have to stand on 'em to make it stop. Shoes, wheel cylinders,
>> hoses and master cylinder are all new/great shape and bled the system.
>> Drums have been turned at Least once and I've never bled the
>> proportioning valve.
>> First thing in the morning, when it's cool, I often get stop-on-a-dime
>> performance for the first stop. After that, it takes a strong leg to
>> stop and need to downshift to stop fast.
>> How big a difference can bleeding the proportioning valve make? Do you
>> think the drums are past tolerance and how much of a difference could
>> that make?
>> Drink