Towing with a Jeep
02-16-2004, 09:16 PM
#31
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Towing with a Jeep
Tried to tow a 3500 pound boat with an S-10 extended cab pickup when my
primary tow vehicle was down... did not work! Was not a power problem, just
to much weight for handling... pushed the S-10 all over the road (looked
like a dog wagging his tail going down the road), had to turn around and
come home. That weight will even be tricky with the GC.
--
JimG
80' CJ-7 258 CID
35" BFG MT on 15x10 Centerlines
D44 Rear, Dana 30 Front. SOA
4.56 Gears, LockRight F&R
Dana 300 w/4:1 & Currie twin sticks
Warn X8000i w/ dual batteries
"Brian T." <brtomkin@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9491C263BD1B7wolfpackmp3@216.196.97.136...
> I am looking for a bit of advice. I am considering towing another vehicle
> (on a trailer with all four wheels off the ground) with my '93 Jeep
> Wrangler (6 cyl. 4.0 liter, manual transmission). The weight of the
> vehicle I want to tow is about 3500 lbs. Is this possible? Would it be
> safe? I need to tow it about 300 miles.
>
> I also might have access to a 2002 Grand Cherokee (6 cyl., auto trans).
> Would this be better to use?
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
primary tow vehicle was down... did not work! Was not a power problem, just
to much weight for handling... pushed the S-10 all over the road (looked
like a dog wagging his tail going down the road), had to turn around and
come home. That weight will even be tricky with the GC.
--
JimG
80' CJ-7 258 CID
35" BFG MT on 15x10 Centerlines
D44 Rear, Dana 30 Front. SOA
4.56 Gears, LockRight F&R
Dana 300 w/4:1 & Currie twin sticks
Warn X8000i w/ dual batteries
"Brian T." <brtomkin@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9491C263BD1B7wolfpackmp3@216.196.97.136...
> I am looking for a bit of advice. I am considering towing another vehicle
> (on a trailer with all four wheels off the ground) with my '93 Jeep
> Wrangler (6 cyl. 4.0 liter, manual transmission). The weight of the
> vehicle I want to tow is about 3500 lbs. Is this possible? Would it be
> safe? I need to tow it about 300 miles.
>
> I also might have access to a 2002 Grand Cherokee (6 cyl., auto trans).
> Would this be better to use?
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
02-16-2004, 10:00 PM
#32
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Towing with a Jeep
NO it would not be safe. That tiny wheel base is scary.
KH
"Brian T." <brtomkin@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9491C263BD1B7wolfpackmp3@216.196.97.136...
> I am looking for a bit of advice. I am considering towing another vehicle
> (on a trailer with all four wheels off the ground) with my '93 Jeep
> Wrangler (6 cyl. 4.0 liter, manual transmission). The weight of the
> vehicle I want to tow is about 3500 lbs. Is this possible? Would it be
> safe? I need to tow it about 300 miles.
>
> I also might have access to a 2002 Grand Cherokee (6 cyl., auto trans).
> Would this be better to use?
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
KH
"Brian T." <brtomkin@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9491C263BD1B7wolfpackmp3@216.196.97.136...
> I am looking for a bit of advice. I am considering towing another vehicle
> (on a trailer with all four wheels off the ground) with my '93 Jeep
> Wrangler (6 cyl. 4.0 liter, manual transmission). The weight of the
> vehicle I want to tow is about 3500 lbs. Is this possible? Would it be
> safe? I need to tow it about 300 miles.
>
> I also might have access to a 2002 Grand Cherokee (6 cyl., auto trans).
> Would this be better to use?
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
02-16-2004, 10:00 PM
#33
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Towing with a Jeep
NO it would not be safe. That tiny wheel base is scary.
KH
"Brian T." <brtomkin@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9491C263BD1B7wolfpackmp3@216.196.97.136...
> I am looking for a bit of advice. I am considering towing another vehicle
> (on a trailer with all four wheels off the ground) with my '93 Jeep
> Wrangler (6 cyl. 4.0 liter, manual transmission). The weight of the
> vehicle I want to tow is about 3500 lbs. Is this possible? Would it be
> safe? I need to tow it about 300 miles.
>
> I also might have access to a 2002 Grand Cherokee (6 cyl., auto trans).
> Would this be better to use?
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
KH
"Brian T." <brtomkin@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9491C263BD1B7wolfpackmp3@216.196.97.136...
> I am looking for a bit of advice. I am considering towing another vehicle
> (on a trailer with all four wheels off the ground) with my '93 Jeep
> Wrangler (6 cyl. 4.0 liter, manual transmission). The weight of the
> vehicle I want to tow is about 3500 lbs. Is this possible? Would it be
> safe? I need to tow it about 300 miles.
>
> I also might have access to a 2002 Grand Cherokee (6 cyl., auto trans).
> Would this be better to use?
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
02-16-2004, 10:00 PM
#34
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Towing with a Jeep
NO it would not be safe. That tiny wheel base is scary.
KH
"Brian T." <brtomkin@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9491C263BD1B7wolfpackmp3@216.196.97.136...
> I am looking for a bit of advice. I am considering towing another vehicle
> (on a trailer with all four wheels off the ground) with my '93 Jeep
> Wrangler (6 cyl. 4.0 liter, manual transmission). The weight of the
> vehicle I want to tow is about 3500 lbs. Is this possible? Would it be
> safe? I need to tow it about 300 miles.
>
> I also might have access to a 2002 Grand Cherokee (6 cyl., auto trans).
> Would this be better to use?
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
KH
"Brian T." <brtomkin@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9491C263BD1B7wolfpackmp3@216.196.97.136...
> I am looking for a bit of advice. I am considering towing another vehicle
> (on a trailer with all four wheels off the ground) with my '93 Jeep
> Wrangler (6 cyl. 4.0 liter, manual transmission). The weight of the
> vehicle I want to tow is about 3500 lbs. Is this possible? Would it be
> safe? I need to tow it about 300 miles.
>
> I also might have access to a 2002 Grand Cherokee (6 cyl., auto trans).
> Would this be better to use?
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
02-17-2004, 12:23 AM
#35
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Towing with a Jeep
Kinda like the tail wagging the dog...
Rick
"Kevin in San Diego" <kevin_hedstrom@yahoospam.com> wrote in message
news:EtfYb.212$CQ6.128@fed1read05...
> NO it would not be safe. That tiny wheel base is scary.
> KH
>
>
> "Brian T." <brtomkin@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9491C263BD1B7wolfpackmp3@216.196.97.136...
> > I am looking for a bit of advice. I am considering towing another
vehicle
> > (on a trailer with all four wheels off the ground) with my '93 Jeep
> > Wrangler (6 cyl. 4.0 liter, manual transmission). The weight of the
> > vehicle I want to tow is about 3500 lbs. Is this possible? Would it be
> > safe? I need to tow it about 300 miles.
> >
> > I also might have access to a 2002 Grand Cherokee (6 cyl., auto trans).
> > Would this be better to use?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Brian
>
>
Rick
"Kevin in San Diego" <kevin_hedstrom@yahoospam.com> wrote in message
news:EtfYb.212$CQ6.128@fed1read05...
> NO it would not be safe. That tiny wheel base is scary.
> KH
>
>
> "Brian T." <brtomkin@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9491C263BD1B7wolfpackmp3@216.196.97.136...
> > I am looking for a bit of advice. I am considering towing another
vehicle
> > (on a trailer with all four wheels off the ground) with my '93 Jeep
> > Wrangler (6 cyl. 4.0 liter, manual transmission). The weight of the
> > vehicle I want to tow is about 3500 lbs. Is this possible? Would it be
> > safe? I need to tow it about 300 miles.
> >
> > I also might have access to a 2002 Grand Cherokee (6 cyl., auto trans).
> > Would this be better to use?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Brian
>
>
02-17-2004, 12:23 AM
#36
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Towing with a Jeep
Kinda like the tail wagging the dog...
Rick
"Kevin in San Diego" <kevin_hedstrom@yahoospam.com> wrote in message
news:EtfYb.212$CQ6.128@fed1read05...
> NO it would not be safe. That tiny wheel base is scary.
> KH
>
>
> "Brian T." <brtomkin@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9491C263BD1B7wolfpackmp3@216.196.97.136...
> > I am looking for a bit of advice. I am considering towing another
vehicle
> > (on a trailer with all four wheels off the ground) with my '93 Jeep
> > Wrangler (6 cyl. 4.0 liter, manual transmission). The weight of the
> > vehicle I want to tow is about 3500 lbs. Is this possible? Would it be
> > safe? I need to tow it about 300 miles.
> >
> > I also might have access to a 2002 Grand Cherokee (6 cyl., auto trans).
> > Would this be better to use?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Brian
>
>
Rick
"Kevin in San Diego" <kevin_hedstrom@yahoospam.com> wrote in message
news:EtfYb.212$CQ6.128@fed1read05...
> NO it would not be safe. That tiny wheel base is scary.
> KH
>
>
> "Brian T." <brtomkin@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9491C263BD1B7wolfpackmp3@216.196.97.136...
> > I am looking for a bit of advice. I am considering towing another
vehicle
> > (on a trailer with all four wheels off the ground) with my '93 Jeep
> > Wrangler (6 cyl. 4.0 liter, manual transmission). The weight of the
> > vehicle I want to tow is about 3500 lbs. Is this possible? Would it be
> > safe? I need to tow it about 300 miles.
> >
> > I also might have access to a 2002 Grand Cherokee (6 cyl., auto trans).
> > Would this be better to use?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Brian
>
>
02-17-2004, 12:23 AM
#37
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Towing with a Jeep
Kinda like the tail wagging the dog...
Rick
"Kevin in San Diego" <kevin_hedstrom@yahoospam.com> wrote in message
news:EtfYb.212$CQ6.128@fed1read05...
> NO it would not be safe. That tiny wheel base is scary.
> KH
>
>
> "Brian T." <brtomkin@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9491C263BD1B7wolfpackmp3@216.196.97.136...
> > I am looking for a bit of advice. I am considering towing another
vehicle
> > (on a trailer with all four wheels off the ground) with my '93 Jeep
> > Wrangler (6 cyl. 4.0 liter, manual transmission). The weight of the
> > vehicle I want to tow is about 3500 lbs. Is this possible? Would it be
> > safe? I need to tow it about 300 miles.
> >
> > I also might have access to a 2002 Grand Cherokee (6 cyl., auto trans).
> > Would this be better to use?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Brian
>
>
Rick
"Kevin in San Diego" <kevin_hedstrom@yahoospam.com> wrote in message
news:EtfYb.212$CQ6.128@fed1read05...
> NO it would not be safe. That tiny wheel base is scary.
> KH
>
>
> "Brian T." <brtomkin@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9491C263BD1B7wolfpackmp3@216.196.97.136...
> > I am looking for a bit of advice. I am considering towing another
vehicle
> > (on a trailer with all four wheels off the ground) with my '93 Jeep
> > Wrangler (6 cyl. 4.0 liter, manual transmission). The weight of the
> > vehicle I want to tow is about 3500 lbs. Is this possible? Would it be
> > safe? I need to tow it about 300 miles.
> >
> > I also might have access to a 2002 Grand Cherokee (6 cyl., auto trans).
> > Would this be better to use?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Brian
>
>
02-17-2004, 10:59 AM
#38
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Towing with a Jeep
>I am considering towing another vehicle
>(on a trailer with all four wheels off the ground) with my '93 Jeep
>Wrangler (6 cyl. 4.0 liter, manual transmission). The weight of the
>vehicle I want to tow is about 3500 lbs. Is this possible? Would it be
>safe? I need to tow it about 300 miles.
A 16' car carrier trailer typically weighs 1,600-1,900 pounds, depending on
manufacturer and design. The weight of your towed vehicle/trailer combination
(5,100 - 5,400) will exceed the weight of your TJ, and the wheelbase of your TJ
is too short to tow such a load. IT IS NOT SAFE. DON'T DO IT!!! Not even for
10 miles.
>I also might have access to a 2002 Grand Cherokee (6 cyl., auto trans).
>Would this be better to use?
A 6 cylinder Grand Cherokee is no better. While the manufacturer's tow rating
might be 5,000 pounds, that is with only the driver, no passengers, no gear and
almost no gasoline in the tank. Every pound you add in cargo/passengers inside
the GC must be deducted from its tow capacity. Also, that tow rating is with a
weight distributing hitch, which you will not have on a car carrier trailer.
The tow rating for a bumper pull hitch is less, about 3,500 pounds (less the
weight of people and gear inside the GC). Thus you will still be significantly
overweight. IT IS UNSAFE. DO NOT DO IT!
This isn't just book learning. I have been towing jeeps for years, both flat
towing and on trailers. I almost killed myself (and a family of innocent
people in the next lane) in the mid-1970's trying to tow my CJ-5 with an
undersized vehicle from one town to the next. I was young, and thought I could
get away with a 25 mile tow if I kept my speeds down. I was wrong.
My experience (coincidentally identical to the opinion of towing experts) is
that the minimum capacity vehicle you need for the load you describe is a 3/4
ton truck such as a Ford F250, Chevy Silverado 2500 or Dodge Ram 2500. A 1/2
ton truck just won't do it, especially if you have to climb or descend any
grades.
Robert Bills
KG6LMV
Orange County CA
http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
http://www.RobertBills.com
>(on a trailer with all four wheels off the ground) with my '93 Jeep
>Wrangler (6 cyl. 4.0 liter, manual transmission). The weight of the
>vehicle I want to tow is about 3500 lbs. Is this possible? Would it be
>safe? I need to tow it about 300 miles.
A 16' car carrier trailer typically weighs 1,600-1,900 pounds, depending on
manufacturer and design. The weight of your towed vehicle/trailer combination
(5,100 - 5,400) will exceed the weight of your TJ, and the wheelbase of your TJ
is too short to tow such a load. IT IS NOT SAFE. DON'T DO IT!!! Not even for
10 miles.
>I also might have access to a 2002 Grand Cherokee (6 cyl., auto trans).
>Would this be better to use?
A 6 cylinder Grand Cherokee is no better. While the manufacturer's tow rating
might be 5,000 pounds, that is with only the driver, no passengers, no gear and
almost no gasoline in the tank. Every pound you add in cargo/passengers inside
the GC must be deducted from its tow capacity. Also, that tow rating is with a
weight distributing hitch, which you will not have on a car carrier trailer.
The tow rating for a bumper pull hitch is less, about 3,500 pounds (less the
weight of people and gear inside the GC). Thus you will still be significantly
overweight. IT IS UNSAFE. DO NOT DO IT!
This isn't just book learning. I have been towing jeeps for years, both flat
towing and on trailers. I almost killed myself (and a family of innocent
people in the next lane) in the mid-1970's trying to tow my CJ-5 with an
undersized vehicle from one town to the next. I was young, and thought I could
get away with a 25 mile tow if I kept my speeds down. I was wrong.
My experience (coincidentally identical to the opinion of towing experts) is
that the minimum capacity vehicle you need for the load you describe is a 3/4
ton truck such as a Ford F250, Chevy Silverado 2500 or Dodge Ram 2500. A 1/2
ton truck just won't do it, especially if you have to climb or descend any
grades.
Robert Bills
KG6LMV
Orange County CA
http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
http://www.RobertBills.com
02-17-2004, 10:59 AM
#39
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Towing with a Jeep
>I am considering towing another vehicle
>(on a trailer with all four wheels off the ground) with my '93 Jeep
>Wrangler (6 cyl. 4.0 liter, manual transmission). The weight of the
>vehicle I want to tow is about 3500 lbs. Is this possible? Would it be
>safe? I need to tow it about 300 miles.
A 16' car carrier trailer typically weighs 1,600-1,900 pounds, depending on
manufacturer and design. The weight of your towed vehicle/trailer combination
(5,100 - 5,400) will exceed the weight of your TJ, and the wheelbase of your TJ
is too short to tow such a load. IT IS NOT SAFE. DON'T DO IT!!! Not even for
10 miles.
>I also might have access to a 2002 Grand Cherokee (6 cyl., auto trans).
>Would this be better to use?
A 6 cylinder Grand Cherokee is no better. While the manufacturer's tow rating
might be 5,000 pounds, that is with only the driver, no passengers, no gear and
almost no gasoline in the tank. Every pound you add in cargo/passengers inside
the GC must be deducted from its tow capacity. Also, that tow rating is with a
weight distributing hitch, which you will not have on a car carrier trailer.
The tow rating for a bumper pull hitch is less, about 3,500 pounds (less the
weight of people and gear inside the GC). Thus you will still be significantly
overweight. IT IS UNSAFE. DO NOT DO IT!
This isn't just book learning. I have been towing jeeps for years, both flat
towing and on trailers. I almost killed myself (and a family of innocent
people in the next lane) in the mid-1970's trying to tow my CJ-5 with an
undersized vehicle from one town to the next. I was young, and thought I could
get away with a 25 mile tow if I kept my speeds down. I was wrong.
My experience (coincidentally identical to the opinion of towing experts) is
that the minimum capacity vehicle you need for the load you describe is a 3/4
ton truck such as a Ford F250, Chevy Silverado 2500 or Dodge Ram 2500. A 1/2
ton truck just won't do it, especially if you have to climb or descend any
grades.
Robert Bills
KG6LMV
Orange County CA
http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
http://www.RobertBills.com
>(on a trailer with all four wheels off the ground) with my '93 Jeep
>Wrangler (6 cyl. 4.0 liter, manual transmission). The weight of the
>vehicle I want to tow is about 3500 lbs. Is this possible? Would it be
>safe? I need to tow it about 300 miles.
A 16' car carrier trailer typically weighs 1,600-1,900 pounds, depending on
manufacturer and design. The weight of your towed vehicle/trailer combination
(5,100 - 5,400) will exceed the weight of your TJ, and the wheelbase of your TJ
is too short to tow such a load. IT IS NOT SAFE. DON'T DO IT!!! Not even for
10 miles.
>I also might have access to a 2002 Grand Cherokee (6 cyl., auto trans).
>Would this be better to use?
A 6 cylinder Grand Cherokee is no better. While the manufacturer's tow rating
might be 5,000 pounds, that is with only the driver, no passengers, no gear and
almost no gasoline in the tank. Every pound you add in cargo/passengers inside
the GC must be deducted from its tow capacity. Also, that tow rating is with a
weight distributing hitch, which you will not have on a car carrier trailer.
The tow rating for a bumper pull hitch is less, about 3,500 pounds (less the
weight of people and gear inside the GC). Thus you will still be significantly
overweight. IT IS UNSAFE. DO NOT DO IT!
This isn't just book learning. I have been towing jeeps for years, both flat
towing and on trailers. I almost killed myself (and a family of innocent
people in the next lane) in the mid-1970's trying to tow my CJ-5 with an
undersized vehicle from one town to the next. I was young, and thought I could
get away with a 25 mile tow if I kept my speeds down. I was wrong.
My experience (coincidentally identical to the opinion of towing experts) is
that the minimum capacity vehicle you need for the load you describe is a 3/4
ton truck such as a Ford F250, Chevy Silverado 2500 or Dodge Ram 2500. A 1/2
ton truck just won't do it, especially if you have to climb or descend any
grades.
Robert Bills
KG6LMV
Orange County CA
http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
http://www.RobertBills.com
02-17-2004, 10:59 AM
#40
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Towing with a Jeep
>I am considering towing another vehicle
>(on a trailer with all four wheels off the ground) with my '93 Jeep
>Wrangler (6 cyl. 4.0 liter, manual transmission). The weight of the
>vehicle I want to tow is about 3500 lbs. Is this possible? Would it be
>safe? I need to tow it about 300 miles.
A 16' car carrier trailer typically weighs 1,600-1,900 pounds, depending on
manufacturer and design. The weight of your towed vehicle/trailer combination
(5,100 - 5,400) will exceed the weight of your TJ, and the wheelbase of your TJ
is too short to tow such a load. IT IS NOT SAFE. DON'T DO IT!!! Not even for
10 miles.
>I also might have access to a 2002 Grand Cherokee (6 cyl., auto trans).
>Would this be better to use?
A 6 cylinder Grand Cherokee is no better. While the manufacturer's tow rating
might be 5,000 pounds, that is with only the driver, no passengers, no gear and
almost no gasoline in the tank. Every pound you add in cargo/passengers inside
the GC must be deducted from its tow capacity. Also, that tow rating is with a
weight distributing hitch, which you will not have on a car carrier trailer.
The tow rating for a bumper pull hitch is less, about 3,500 pounds (less the
weight of people and gear inside the GC). Thus you will still be significantly
overweight. IT IS UNSAFE. DO NOT DO IT!
This isn't just book learning. I have been towing jeeps for years, both flat
towing and on trailers. I almost killed myself (and a family of innocent
people in the next lane) in the mid-1970's trying to tow my CJ-5 with an
undersized vehicle from one town to the next. I was young, and thought I could
get away with a 25 mile tow if I kept my speeds down. I was wrong.
My experience (coincidentally identical to the opinion of towing experts) is
that the minimum capacity vehicle you need for the load you describe is a 3/4
ton truck such as a Ford F250, Chevy Silverado 2500 or Dodge Ram 2500. A 1/2
ton truck just won't do it, especially if you have to climb or descend any
grades.
Robert Bills
KG6LMV
Orange County CA
http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
http://www.RobertBills.com
>(on a trailer with all four wheels off the ground) with my '93 Jeep
>Wrangler (6 cyl. 4.0 liter, manual transmission). The weight of the
>vehicle I want to tow is about 3500 lbs. Is this possible? Would it be
>safe? I need to tow it about 300 miles.
A 16' car carrier trailer typically weighs 1,600-1,900 pounds, depending on
manufacturer and design. The weight of your towed vehicle/trailer combination
(5,100 - 5,400) will exceed the weight of your TJ, and the wheelbase of your TJ
is too short to tow such a load. IT IS NOT SAFE. DON'T DO IT!!! Not even for
10 miles.
>I also might have access to a 2002 Grand Cherokee (6 cyl., auto trans).
>Would this be better to use?
A 6 cylinder Grand Cherokee is no better. While the manufacturer's tow rating
might be 5,000 pounds, that is with only the driver, no passengers, no gear and
almost no gasoline in the tank. Every pound you add in cargo/passengers inside
the GC must be deducted from its tow capacity. Also, that tow rating is with a
weight distributing hitch, which you will not have on a car carrier trailer.
The tow rating for a bumper pull hitch is less, about 3,500 pounds (less the
weight of people and gear inside the GC). Thus you will still be significantly
overweight. IT IS UNSAFE. DO NOT DO IT!
This isn't just book learning. I have been towing jeeps for years, both flat
towing and on trailers. I almost killed myself (and a family of innocent
people in the next lane) in the mid-1970's trying to tow my CJ-5 with an
undersized vehicle from one town to the next. I was young, and thought I could
get away with a 25 mile tow if I kept my speeds down. I was wrong.
My experience (coincidentally identical to the opinion of towing experts) is
that the minimum capacity vehicle you need for the load you describe is a 3/4
ton truck such as a Ford F250, Chevy Silverado 2500 or Dodge Ram 2500. A 1/2
ton truck just won't do it, especially if you have to climb or descend any
grades.
Robert Bills
KG6LMV
Orange County CA
http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
http://www.RobertBills.com