tow vehicle suggestions
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: tow vehicle suggestions
In article <3F79BC7D.53D5DB23@***.net>, L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) ------
III <----------@***.net> writes:
>I knew everything at sixteen.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
>mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
What's changed?
:-)
* * *
Matt Macchiarolo
www.townpeddler.com
www.wolverine4wd.org
http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
III <----------@***.net> writes:
>I knew everything at sixteen.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
>mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
What's changed?
:-)
* * *
Matt Macchiarolo
www.townpeddler.com
www.wolverine4wd.org
http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: tow vehicle suggestions
Approximately 9/30/03 06:34, Joshua Nelson uttered for posterity:
> I also stand by the statement that how much you can tow will vary with
> numerous towing conditions, and it's ridiculous to expect the same
> equipment to perform identically on a low-speed tow in florida and a
> freeway speed tow in Colorado. That's just common sense.
Do us a favor and stay *standing* by that statement and keep it off
the freeway. That way you won't kill anyone if that towed trailer
gets a good shot of crosswind or you need to stop it from freeway
towing speed in a hurry. Thank goodness this type of sense is
only "common" amongst a minority of people who tow.
> I also stand by the statement that how much you can tow will vary with
> numerous towing conditions, and it's ridiculous to expect the same
> equipment to perform identically on a low-speed tow in florida and a
> freeway speed tow in Colorado. That's just common sense.
Do us a favor and stay *standing* by that statement and keep it off
the freeway. That way you won't kill anyone if that towed trailer
gets a good shot of crosswind or you need to stop it from freeway
towing speed in a hurry. Thank goodness this type of sense is
only "common" amongst a minority of people who tow.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: tow vehicle suggestions
Approximately 9/30/03 06:34, Joshua Nelson uttered for posterity:
> I also stand by the statement that how much you can tow will vary with
> numerous towing conditions, and it's ridiculous to expect the same
> equipment to perform identically on a low-speed tow in florida and a
> freeway speed tow in Colorado. That's just common sense.
Do us a favor and stay *standing* by that statement and keep it off
the freeway. That way you won't kill anyone if that towed trailer
gets a good shot of crosswind or you need to stop it from freeway
towing speed in a hurry. Thank goodness this type of sense is
only "common" amongst a minority of people who tow.
> I also stand by the statement that how much you can tow will vary with
> numerous towing conditions, and it's ridiculous to expect the same
> equipment to perform identically on a low-speed tow in florida and a
> freeway speed tow in Colorado. That's just common sense.
Do us a favor and stay *standing* by that statement and keep it off
the freeway. That way you won't kill anyone if that towed trailer
gets a good shot of crosswind or you need to stop it from freeway
towing speed in a hurry. Thank goodness this type of sense is
only "common" amongst a minority of people who tow.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: tow vehicle suggestions
There's no need to be rude. Per another posterr who looked at the
official DC manual, the cherokee manual states the auto transmission
models can tow 5000 lbs. Case closed.
As for knowing "nothing about" towing.... We have indeed flat towed
the TJ with the CJ successfully and safely. Again though, this was at
low speeds on back roads in flat country, in a modified CJ with disc
brakes, V8 and NV transmission, and should not be taken as a blanket
endorsement of just towing any TJ with any CJ under any conditions.
Once again, "it depends upon the circumstances." and you can take that
to the bank!!
> If I were you, I would stop offering opinions about things you know nothing
> about.
>
official DC manual, the cherokee manual states the auto transmission
models can tow 5000 lbs. Case closed.
As for knowing "nothing about" towing.... We have indeed flat towed
the TJ with the CJ successfully and safely. Again though, this was at
low speeds on back roads in flat country, in a modified CJ with disc
brakes, V8 and NV transmission, and should not be taken as a blanket
endorsement of just towing any TJ with any CJ under any conditions.
Once again, "it depends upon the circumstances." and you can take that
to the bank!!
> If I were you, I would stop offering opinions about things you know nothing
> about.
>
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: tow vehicle suggestions
There's no need to be rude. Per another posterr who looked at the
official DC manual, the cherokee manual states the auto transmission
models can tow 5000 lbs. Case closed.
As for knowing "nothing about" towing.... We have indeed flat towed
the TJ with the CJ successfully and safely. Again though, this was at
low speeds on back roads in flat country, in a modified CJ with disc
brakes, V8 and NV transmission, and should not be taken as a blanket
endorsement of just towing any TJ with any CJ under any conditions.
Once again, "it depends upon the circumstances." and you can take that
to the bank!!
> If I were you, I would stop offering opinions about things you know nothing
> about.
>
official DC manual, the cherokee manual states the auto transmission
models can tow 5000 lbs. Case closed.
As for knowing "nothing about" towing.... We have indeed flat towed
the TJ with the CJ successfully and safely. Again though, this was at
low speeds on back roads in flat country, in a modified CJ with disc
brakes, V8 and NV transmission, and should not be taken as a blanket
endorsement of just towing any TJ with any CJ under any conditions.
Once again, "it depends upon the circumstances." and you can take that
to the bank!!
> If I were you, I would stop offering opinions about things you know nothing
> about.
>
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: tow vehicle suggestions
I had honestly not thought about the legal aspect. I can appreciate
from that angle why you would want to be extra conservative, but,
well, legality is a totally different issue from the physical
properties of the vehicle. For example, you can probably also get in
pretty hot water (vehicular manslaughter?) for having a fatal wreck at
60mph in a 45mph zone, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a jeep
is inherently unsafe at 60mph. Or even that that stretch of road
necessarily deserves a 45mph speed limit for any other reason than to
be a speed trap and generate income for the local police force. If
that jurisdiction raised the speed limit to 60mph - or did away with
laws about towing limits - that doesn't make the jeep any more or less
safe. So I'm not judging things from a legal aspect, just relating my
experience with towing and exceeding the stated weight limit, albeit
in a careful and cautious manner - which went just fine.
Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3F798488.70C2B372@sympatico.ca>...
> Oh man, where do you come up with this stuff?
>
> It is quite simple.
>
> It is totally illegal to tow anything more than the door sticker or
> owners manual states is the GVWR with trailer.
>
> If you get hit by someone and the cops come, 'you' are the one going to
> be busted. (been there, done that, got minorly rear ended, trailer
> ended up behind a police ordered tow truck)
>
> If you hit someone such as a kid that jumps out from the front of a van,
> having an overload trailer turns an accident into vehicular manslaughter
> and can totally ruin your day, or decade, depending on how long they
> toss you in jail for.
>
> The cops also specifically watch out for overloaded trailers, the
> newspaper recently said they nailed something like 15 overloaded
> trailers the last long weekend.
>
> And 'Yes', the highway patrol do carry portable scales in their trunks
> to check.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> Joshua Nelson wrote:
> >
> > Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
> > are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
> > looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
> > lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
> > in the manual to cover their butts.
> >
> > There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
> > you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
> > duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
> > cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more. However if you
> > want to drive at max speed and haul something over the continental
> > divide that is another matter entirely... so scale your expectations
> > accordingly.
from that angle why you would want to be extra conservative, but,
well, legality is a totally different issue from the physical
properties of the vehicle. For example, you can probably also get in
pretty hot water (vehicular manslaughter?) for having a fatal wreck at
60mph in a 45mph zone, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a jeep
is inherently unsafe at 60mph. Or even that that stretch of road
necessarily deserves a 45mph speed limit for any other reason than to
be a speed trap and generate income for the local police force. If
that jurisdiction raised the speed limit to 60mph - or did away with
laws about towing limits - that doesn't make the jeep any more or less
safe. So I'm not judging things from a legal aspect, just relating my
experience with towing and exceeding the stated weight limit, albeit
in a careful and cautious manner - which went just fine.
Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3F798488.70C2B372@sympatico.ca>...
> Oh man, where do you come up with this stuff?
>
> It is quite simple.
>
> It is totally illegal to tow anything more than the door sticker or
> owners manual states is the GVWR with trailer.
>
> If you get hit by someone and the cops come, 'you' are the one going to
> be busted. (been there, done that, got minorly rear ended, trailer
> ended up behind a police ordered tow truck)
>
> If you hit someone such as a kid that jumps out from the front of a van,
> having an overload trailer turns an accident into vehicular manslaughter
> and can totally ruin your day, or decade, depending on how long they
> toss you in jail for.
>
> The cops also specifically watch out for overloaded trailers, the
> newspaper recently said they nailed something like 15 overloaded
> trailers the last long weekend.
>
> And 'Yes', the highway patrol do carry portable scales in their trunks
> to check.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> Joshua Nelson wrote:
> >
> > Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
> > are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
> > looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
> > lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
> > in the manual to cover their butts.
> >
> > There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
> > you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
> > duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
> > cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more. However if you
> > want to drive at max speed and haul something over the continental
> > divide that is another matter entirely... so scale your expectations
> > accordingly.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: tow vehicle suggestions
I had honestly not thought about the legal aspect. I can appreciate
from that angle why you would want to be extra conservative, but,
well, legality is a totally different issue from the physical
properties of the vehicle. For example, you can probably also get in
pretty hot water (vehicular manslaughter?) for having a fatal wreck at
60mph in a 45mph zone, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a jeep
is inherently unsafe at 60mph. Or even that that stretch of road
necessarily deserves a 45mph speed limit for any other reason than to
be a speed trap and generate income for the local police force. If
that jurisdiction raised the speed limit to 60mph - or did away with
laws about towing limits - that doesn't make the jeep any more or less
safe. So I'm not judging things from a legal aspect, just relating my
experience with towing and exceeding the stated weight limit, albeit
in a careful and cautious manner - which went just fine.
Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3F798488.70C2B372@sympatico.ca>...
> Oh man, where do you come up with this stuff?
>
> It is quite simple.
>
> It is totally illegal to tow anything more than the door sticker or
> owners manual states is the GVWR with trailer.
>
> If you get hit by someone and the cops come, 'you' are the one going to
> be busted. (been there, done that, got minorly rear ended, trailer
> ended up behind a police ordered tow truck)
>
> If you hit someone such as a kid that jumps out from the front of a van,
> having an overload trailer turns an accident into vehicular manslaughter
> and can totally ruin your day, or decade, depending on how long they
> toss you in jail for.
>
> The cops also specifically watch out for overloaded trailers, the
> newspaper recently said they nailed something like 15 overloaded
> trailers the last long weekend.
>
> And 'Yes', the highway patrol do carry portable scales in their trunks
> to check.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> Joshua Nelson wrote:
> >
> > Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
> > are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
> > looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
> > lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
> > in the manual to cover their butts.
> >
> > There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
> > you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
> > duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
> > cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more. However if you
> > want to drive at max speed and haul something over the continental
> > divide that is another matter entirely... so scale your expectations
> > accordingly.
from that angle why you would want to be extra conservative, but,
well, legality is a totally different issue from the physical
properties of the vehicle. For example, you can probably also get in
pretty hot water (vehicular manslaughter?) for having a fatal wreck at
60mph in a 45mph zone, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a jeep
is inherently unsafe at 60mph. Or even that that stretch of road
necessarily deserves a 45mph speed limit for any other reason than to
be a speed trap and generate income for the local police force. If
that jurisdiction raised the speed limit to 60mph - or did away with
laws about towing limits - that doesn't make the jeep any more or less
safe. So I'm not judging things from a legal aspect, just relating my
experience with towing and exceeding the stated weight limit, albeit
in a careful and cautious manner - which went just fine.
Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3F798488.70C2B372@sympatico.ca>...
> Oh man, where do you come up with this stuff?
>
> It is quite simple.
>
> It is totally illegal to tow anything more than the door sticker or
> owners manual states is the GVWR with trailer.
>
> If you get hit by someone and the cops come, 'you' are the one going to
> be busted. (been there, done that, got minorly rear ended, trailer
> ended up behind a police ordered tow truck)
>
> If you hit someone such as a kid that jumps out from the front of a van,
> having an overload trailer turns an accident into vehicular manslaughter
> and can totally ruin your day, or decade, depending on how long they
> toss you in jail for.
>
> The cops also specifically watch out for overloaded trailers, the
> newspaper recently said they nailed something like 15 overloaded
> trailers the last long weekend.
>
> And 'Yes', the highway patrol do carry portable scales in their trunks
> to check.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> Joshua Nelson wrote:
> >
> > Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
> > are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
> > looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
> > lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
> > in the manual to cover their butts.
> >
> > There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
> > you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
> > duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
> > cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more. However if you
> > want to drive at max speed and haul something over the continental
> > divide that is another matter entirely... so scale your expectations
> > accordingly.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: tow vehicle suggestions
I don't care how many disclaimers you put on it, is stupid to tow a
TJ with a CJ!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Joshua Nelson wrote:
>
> There's no need to be rude. Per another posterr who looked at the
> official DC manual, the cherokee manual states the auto transmission
> models can tow 5000 lbs. Case closed.
>
> As for knowing "nothing about" towing.... We have indeed flat towed
> the TJ with the CJ successfully and safely. Again though, this was at
> low speeds on back roads in flat country, in a modified CJ with disc
> brakes, V8 and NV transmission, and should not be taken as a blanket
> endorsement of just towing any TJ with any CJ under any conditions.
> Once again, "it depends upon the circumstances." and you can take that
> to the bank!!
TJ with a CJ!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Joshua Nelson wrote:
>
> There's no need to be rude. Per another posterr who looked at the
> official DC manual, the cherokee manual states the auto transmission
> models can tow 5000 lbs. Case closed.
>
> As for knowing "nothing about" towing.... We have indeed flat towed
> the TJ with the CJ successfully and safely. Again though, this was at
> low speeds on back roads in flat country, in a modified CJ with disc
> brakes, V8 and NV transmission, and should not be taken as a blanket
> endorsement of just towing any TJ with any CJ under any conditions.
> Once again, "it depends upon the circumstances." and you can take that
> to the bank!!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: tow vehicle suggestions
I don't care how many disclaimers you put on it, is stupid to tow a
TJ with a CJ!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Joshua Nelson wrote:
>
> There's no need to be rude. Per another posterr who looked at the
> official DC manual, the cherokee manual states the auto transmission
> models can tow 5000 lbs. Case closed.
>
> As for knowing "nothing about" towing.... We have indeed flat towed
> the TJ with the CJ successfully and safely. Again though, this was at
> low speeds on back roads in flat country, in a modified CJ with disc
> brakes, V8 and NV transmission, and should not be taken as a blanket
> endorsement of just towing any TJ with any CJ under any conditions.
> Once again, "it depends upon the circumstances." and you can take that
> to the bank!!
TJ with a CJ!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Joshua Nelson wrote:
>
> There's no need to be rude. Per another posterr who looked at the
> official DC manual, the cherokee manual states the auto transmission
> models can tow 5000 lbs. Case closed.
>
> As for knowing "nothing about" towing.... We have indeed flat towed
> the TJ with the CJ successfully and safely. Again though, this was at
> low speeds on back roads in flat country, in a modified CJ with disc
> brakes, V8 and NV transmission, and should not be taken as a blanket
> endorsement of just towing any TJ with any CJ under any conditions.
> Once again, "it depends upon the circumstances." and you can take that
> to the bank!!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: tow vehicle suggestions
I was towing the overload empty bunk trailer across Vancouver Island via
unused logging roads on an overnight drive going 'really' slow.
But!
I had to pass through one town at 2:00 AM, there was no way around it
and I needed gas. Bingo, some ditz rear ended me in the gas station
parking lot at the pumps. The attendant called the cops.
I got popped for the overload.
It always will be that 'safe' spot or 'short slow careful' drive where
something bad is going to happen you know, always.....
Mike
Joshua Nelson wrote:
>
> I had honestly not thought about the legal aspect. I can appreciate
> from that angle why you would want to be extra conservative, but,
> well, legality is a totally different issue from the physical
> properties of the vehicle. For example, you can probably also get in
> pretty hot water (vehicular manslaughter?) for having a fatal wreck at
> 60mph in a 45mph zone, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a jeep
> is inherently unsafe at 60mph. Or even that that stretch of road
> necessarily deserves a 45mph speed limit for any other reason than to
> be a speed trap and generate income for the local police force. If
> that jurisdiction raised the speed limit to 60mph - or did away with
> laws about towing limits - that doesn't make the jeep any more or less
> safe. So I'm not judging things from a legal aspect, just relating my
> experience with towing and exceeding the stated weight limit, albeit
> in a careful and cautious manner - which went just fine.
>
> Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3F798488.70C2B372@sympatico.ca>...
> > Oh man, where do you come up with this stuff?
> >
> > It is quite simple.
> >
> > It is totally illegal to tow anything more than the door sticker or
> > owners manual states is the GVWR with trailer.
> >
> > If you get hit by someone and the cops come, 'you' are the one going to
> > be busted. (been there, done that, got minorly rear ended, trailer
> > ended up behind a police ordered tow truck)
> >
> > If you hit someone such as a kid that jumps out from the front of a van,
> > having an overload trailer turns an accident into vehicular manslaughter
> > and can totally ruin your day, or decade, depending on how long they
> > toss you in jail for.
> >
> > The cops also specifically watch out for overloaded trailers, the
> > newspaper recently said they nailed something like 15 overloaded
> > trailers the last long weekend.
> >
> > And 'Yes', the highway patrol do carry portable scales in their trunks
> > to check.
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > Joshua Nelson wrote:
> > >
> > > Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
> > > are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
> > > looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
> > > lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
> > > in the manual to cover their butts.
> > >
> > > There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
> > > you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
> > > duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
> > > cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more. However if you
> > > want to drive at max speed and haul something over the continental
> > > divide that is another matter entirely... so scale your expectations
> > > accordingly.
unused logging roads on an overnight drive going 'really' slow.
But!
I had to pass through one town at 2:00 AM, there was no way around it
and I needed gas. Bingo, some ditz rear ended me in the gas station
parking lot at the pumps. The attendant called the cops.
I got popped for the overload.
It always will be that 'safe' spot or 'short slow careful' drive where
something bad is going to happen you know, always.....
Mike
Joshua Nelson wrote:
>
> I had honestly not thought about the legal aspect. I can appreciate
> from that angle why you would want to be extra conservative, but,
> well, legality is a totally different issue from the physical
> properties of the vehicle. For example, you can probably also get in
> pretty hot water (vehicular manslaughter?) for having a fatal wreck at
> 60mph in a 45mph zone, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a jeep
> is inherently unsafe at 60mph. Or even that that stretch of road
> necessarily deserves a 45mph speed limit for any other reason than to
> be a speed trap and generate income for the local police force. If
> that jurisdiction raised the speed limit to 60mph - or did away with
> laws about towing limits - that doesn't make the jeep any more or less
> safe. So I'm not judging things from a legal aspect, just relating my
> experience with towing and exceeding the stated weight limit, albeit
> in a careful and cautious manner - which went just fine.
>
> Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3F798488.70C2B372@sympatico.ca>...
> > Oh man, where do you come up with this stuff?
> >
> > It is quite simple.
> >
> > It is totally illegal to tow anything more than the door sticker or
> > owners manual states is the GVWR with trailer.
> >
> > If you get hit by someone and the cops come, 'you' are the one going to
> > be busted. (been there, done that, got minorly rear ended, trailer
> > ended up behind a police ordered tow truck)
> >
> > If you hit someone such as a kid that jumps out from the front of a van,
> > having an overload trailer turns an accident into vehicular manslaughter
> > and can totally ruin your day, or decade, depending on how long they
> > toss you in jail for.
> >
> > The cops also specifically watch out for overloaded trailers, the
> > newspaper recently said they nailed something like 15 overloaded
> > trailers the last long weekend.
> >
> > And 'Yes', the highway patrol do carry portable scales in their trunks
> > to check.
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > Joshua Nelson wrote:
> > >
> > > Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
> > > are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
> > > looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
> > > lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
> > > in the manual to cover their butts.
> > >
> > > There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
> > > you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
> > > duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
> > > cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more. However if you
> > > want to drive at max speed and haul something over the continental
> > > divide that is another matter entirely... so scale your expectations
> > > accordingly.