tow vehicle suggestions
09-29-2003, 07:43 PM
#31
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: tow vehicle suggestions
I used to see people all the time pushing the limits of their vehicle back when
I worked for the Forest Service. We called them "wood cutters", it was also
synonymous with "stupid idiot." Every weekend there was a never ending parade
of people that loaded their trucks and trailers to the max and then some with
fire wood, because the manufactures "couldn't really be counted on" to give
accurate load limits for their vehicles. Busted axles, blown tires, accidents,
and injury were common. I would be willing to bet that the manufacturers push
the limits of what their vehicles will do rather than err on the side of safety.
Look at the Dana 35 axle under many of our Jeeps, off road it is marginal at
best.
Bottom line it this is bad advice. If nothing happens, fine. BUT, if there is
an accident you can be assured that the other side WILL have an attorney and the
first question he will ask is was the vehicle overloaded. If the answer is yes,
you can kiss your wallet good bye cause he is going to clean it out.
Dean
On 29 Sep 2003 14:24:32 -0700, spam_box@ev1.net (Joshua Nelson) wrote:
>Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
>are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
>looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
>lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
>in the manual to cover their butts.
>
>There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
>you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
>duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
>cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more. However if you
>want to drive at max speed and haul something over the continental
>divide that is another matter entirely... so scale your expectations
>accordingly.
I worked for the Forest Service. We called them "wood cutters", it was also
synonymous with "stupid idiot." Every weekend there was a never ending parade
of people that loaded their trucks and trailers to the max and then some with
fire wood, because the manufactures "couldn't really be counted on" to give
accurate load limits for their vehicles. Busted axles, blown tires, accidents,
and injury were common. I would be willing to bet that the manufacturers push
the limits of what their vehicles will do rather than err on the side of safety.
Look at the Dana 35 axle under many of our Jeeps, off road it is marginal at
best.
Bottom line it this is bad advice. If nothing happens, fine. BUT, if there is
an accident you can be assured that the other side WILL have an attorney and the
first question he will ask is was the vehicle overloaded. If the answer is yes,
you can kiss your wallet good bye cause he is going to clean it out.
Dean
On 29 Sep 2003 14:24:32 -0700, spam_box@ev1.net (Joshua Nelson) wrote:
>Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
>are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
>looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
>lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
>in the manual to cover their butts.
>
>There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
>you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
>duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
>cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more. However if you
>want to drive at max speed and haul something over the continental
>divide that is another matter entirely... so scale your expectations
>accordingly.
09-29-2003, 07:57 PM
#32
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: tow vehicle suggestions
>
> There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business.
The safety experts set these guidelines to the lowest common denominator --
you. They know that idiots will come along and look at the manual and think
they can easily multiply any figures given by 3. People that do this are a
risk to themselves and to everybody around them.
Your mentality about towing is the same as about winching. I am waiting for
the day when CNN has a lead story where "a young man and fifteen others were
killed today because the young man was pulling an over-limit load with a
too-weak winch. Film at eleven."
> There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business.
The safety experts set these guidelines to the lowest common denominator --
you. They know that idiots will come along and look at the manual and think
they can easily multiply any figures given by 3. People that do this are a
risk to themselves and to everybody around them.
Your mentality about towing is the same as about winching. I am waiting for
the day when CNN has a lead story where "a young man and fifteen others were
killed today because the young man was pulling an over-limit load with a
too-weak winch. Film at eleven."
09-29-2003, 07:57 PM
#33
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: tow vehicle suggestions
>
> There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business.
The safety experts set these guidelines to the lowest common denominator --
you. They know that idiots will come along and look at the manual and think
they can easily multiply any figures given by 3. People that do this are a
risk to themselves and to everybody around them.
Your mentality about towing is the same as about winching. I am waiting for
the day when CNN has a lead story where "a young man and fifteen others were
killed today because the young man was pulling an over-limit load with a
too-weak winch. Film at eleven."
> There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business.
The safety experts set these guidelines to the lowest common denominator --
you. They know that idiots will come along and look at the manual and think
they can easily multiply any figures given by 3. People that do this are a
risk to themselves and to everybody around them.
Your mentality about towing is the same as about winching. I am waiting for
the day when CNN has a lead story where "a young man and fifteen others were
killed today because the young man was pulling an over-limit load with a
too-weak winch. Film at eleven."
09-29-2003, 08:00 PM
#34
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: tow vehicle suggestions
"Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:b102b6e4.0309291324.2423944f@posting.google.c om...
> Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
> are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
> looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
> lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
> in the manual to cover their butts.
And you recommend that we disregard them... you are
exposing yourself to potential problems... best to use
a standard disclaimer, such as "but I'm not an expert",
which most around here should already know.
Is that the logic you used when you bought your winch?
> There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
> you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
> duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
> cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more. However if you
> want to drive at max speed and haul something over the continental
> divide that is another matter entirely... so scale your expectations
> accordingly.
An XJ with an 8 cylinder engine would be pretty hard to find.
I've fixed up my XJ with what passes for the factory tow
package... it came with the corp 8.25 rear, I added Amsoil
70w140, Hayden transmission cooler, T-wiring kit, and
Class III hitch. Of course, it has the automatic transmission
and 4.0 I6. I wouldn't do any Class III towing unless I
had done this, were I you.
__
Steve
..
09-29-2003, 08:00 PM
#35
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: tow vehicle suggestions
"Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:b102b6e4.0309291324.2423944f@posting.google.c om...
> Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
> are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
> looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
> lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
> in the manual to cover their butts.
And you recommend that we disregard them... you are
exposing yourself to potential problems... best to use
a standard disclaimer, such as "but I'm not an expert",
which most around here should already know.
Is that the logic you used when you bought your winch?
> There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
> you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
> duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
> cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more. However if you
> want to drive at max speed and haul something over the continental
> divide that is another matter entirely... so scale your expectations
> accordingly.
An XJ with an 8 cylinder engine would be pretty hard to find.
I've fixed up my XJ with what passes for the factory tow
package... it came with the corp 8.25 rear, I added Amsoil
70w140, Hayden transmission cooler, T-wiring kit, and
Class III hitch. Of course, it has the automatic transmission
and 4.0 I6. I wouldn't do any Class III towing unless I
had done this, were I you.
__
Steve
..
09-29-2003, 09:55 PM
#36
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: tow vehicle suggestions
In article <b102b6e4.0309291324.2423944f@posting.google.com >, spam_box@ev1.net
(Joshua Nelson) writes:
>Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
>are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
>looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
>lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
>in the manual to cover their butts.
And you know this how? Your extensive experience? You were in on the design
process? You worked for NHTSA in developing the guidelines for GCVR's?
Interesting. You think a 4500 pound winch will pull a mud-stuck TJ, and now you
think the manufacturer tow ratings are just a "suggestion" and may be legally
and safely exceeded as long as you're extra-careful.
>
>There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
>you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
>duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
>cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more.
Wrong, there are several reasons. Everyone else has responded in kind, all I
have to say is "what an idiot."
For giving such bad advice, you are grounded, young man.
* * *
Matt Macchiarolo
www.townpeddler.com
www.wolverine4wd.org
http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
(Joshua Nelson) writes:
>Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
>are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
>looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
>lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
>in the manual to cover their butts.
And you know this how? Your extensive experience? You were in on the design
process? You worked for NHTSA in developing the guidelines for GCVR's?
Interesting. You think a 4500 pound winch will pull a mud-stuck TJ, and now you
think the manufacturer tow ratings are just a "suggestion" and may be legally
and safely exceeded as long as you're extra-careful.
>
>There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
>you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
>duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
>cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more.
Wrong, there are several reasons. Everyone else has responded in kind, all I
have to say is "what an idiot."
For giving such bad advice, you are grounded, young man.
* * *
Matt Macchiarolo
www.townpeddler.com
www.wolverine4wd.org
http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
09-29-2003, 09:55 PM
#37
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: tow vehicle suggestions
In article <b102b6e4.0309291324.2423944f@posting.google.com >, spam_box@ev1.net
(Joshua Nelson) writes:
>Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
>are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
>looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
>lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
>in the manual to cover their butts.
And you know this how? Your extensive experience? You were in on the design
process? You worked for NHTSA in developing the guidelines for GCVR's?
Interesting. You think a 4500 pound winch will pull a mud-stuck TJ, and now you
think the manufacturer tow ratings are just a "suggestion" and may be legally
and safely exceeded as long as you're extra-careful.
>
>There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
>you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
>duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
>cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more.
Wrong, there are several reasons. Everyone else has responded in kind, all I
have to say is "what an idiot."
For giving such bad advice, you are grounded, young man.
* * *
Matt Macchiarolo
www.townpeddler.com
www.wolverine4wd.org
http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
(Joshua Nelson) writes:
>Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
>are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
>looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
>lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
>in the manual to cover their butts.
And you know this how? Your extensive experience? You were in on the design
process? You worked for NHTSA in developing the guidelines for GCVR's?
Interesting. You think a 4500 pound winch will pull a mud-stuck TJ, and now you
think the manufacturer tow ratings are just a "suggestion" and may be legally
and safely exceeded as long as you're extra-careful.
>
>There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
>you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
>duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
>cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more.
Wrong, there are several reasons. Everyone else has responded in kind, all I
have to say is "what an idiot."
For giving such bad advice, you are grounded, young man.
* * *
Matt Macchiarolo
www.townpeddler.com
www.wolverine4wd.org
http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
09-29-2003, 10:12 PM
#38
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: tow vehicle suggestions
He also paid something like $15,000 for a CJ...
"Matt Macchiarolo" <mlmacchia@aol.comspambgon> wrote in message
news:20030929215521.05539.00001130@mb-m16.aol.com...
> In article <b102b6e4.0309291324.2423944f@posting.google.com >,
spam_box@ev1.net
> (Joshua Nelson) writes:
>
> >Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
> >are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
> >looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
> >lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
> >in the manual to cover their butts.
>
> And you know this how? Your extensive experience? You were in on the
design
> process? You worked for NHTSA in developing the guidelines for GCVR's?
>
> Interesting. You think a 4500 pound winch will pull a mud-stuck TJ, and
now you
> think the manufacturer tow ratings are just a "suggestion" and may be
legally
> and safely exceeded as long as you're extra-careful.
>
> >
> >There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
> >you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
> >duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
> >cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more.
>
> Wrong, there are several reasons. Everyone else has responded in kind, all
I
> have to say is "what an idiot."
>
> For giving such bad advice, you are grounded, young man.
>
>
> * * *
> Matt Macchiarolo
> www.townpeddler.com
> www.wolverine4wd.org
> http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
>
>
>
>
"Matt Macchiarolo" <mlmacchia@aol.comspambgon> wrote in message
news:20030929215521.05539.00001130@mb-m16.aol.com...
> In article <b102b6e4.0309291324.2423944f@posting.google.com >,
spam_box@ev1.net
> (Joshua Nelson) writes:
>
> >Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
> >are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
> >looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
> >lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
> >in the manual to cover their butts.
>
> And you know this how? Your extensive experience? You were in on the
design
> process? You worked for NHTSA in developing the guidelines for GCVR's?
>
> Interesting. You think a 4500 pound winch will pull a mud-stuck TJ, and
now you
> think the manufacturer tow ratings are just a "suggestion" and may be
legally
> and safely exceeded as long as you're extra-careful.
>
> >
> >There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
> >you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
> >duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
> >cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more.
>
> Wrong, there are several reasons. Everyone else has responded in kind, all
I
> have to say is "what an idiot."
>
> For giving such bad advice, you are grounded, young man.
>
>
> * * *
> Matt Macchiarolo
> www.townpeddler.com
> www.wolverine4wd.org
> http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
>
>
>
>
09-29-2003, 10:12 PM
#39
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: tow vehicle suggestions
He also paid something like $15,000 for a CJ...
"Matt Macchiarolo" <mlmacchia@aol.comspambgon> wrote in message
news:20030929215521.05539.00001130@mb-m16.aol.com...
> In article <b102b6e4.0309291324.2423944f@posting.google.com >,
spam_box@ev1.net
> (Joshua Nelson) writes:
>
> >Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
> >are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
> >looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
> >lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
> >in the manual to cover their butts.
>
> And you know this how? Your extensive experience? You were in on the
design
> process? You worked for NHTSA in developing the guidelines for GCVR's?
>
> Interesting. You think a 4500 pound winch will pull a mud-stuck TJ, and
now you
> think the manufacturer tow ratings are just a "suggestion" and may be
legally
> and safely exceeded as long as you're extra-careful.
>
> >
> >There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
> >you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
> >duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
> >cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more.
>
> Wrong, there are several reasons. Everyone else has responded in kind, all
I
> have to say is "what an idiot."
>
> For giving such bad advice, you are grounded, young man.
>
>
> * * *
> Matt Macchiarolo
> www.townpeddler.com
> www.wolverine4wd.org
> http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
>
>
>
>
"Matt Macchiarolo" <mlmacchia@aol.comspambgon> wrote in message
news:20030929215521.05539.00001130@mb-m16.aol.com...
> In article <b102b6e4.0309291324.2423944f@posting.google.com >,
spam_box@ev1.net
> (Joshua Nelson) writes:
>
> >Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
> >are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
> >looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
> >lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
> >in the manual to cover their butts.
>
> And you know this how? Your extensive experience? You were in on the
design
> process? You worked for NHTSA in developing the guidelines for GCVR's?
>
> Interesting. You think a 4500 pound winch will pull a mud-stuck TJ, and
now you
> think the manufacturer tow ratings are just a "suggestion" and may be
legally
> and safely exceeded as long as you're extra-careful.
>
> >
> >There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
> >you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
> >duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
> >cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more.
>
> Wrong, there are several reasons. Everyone else has responded in kind, all
I
> have to say is "what an idiot."
>
> For giving such bad advice, you are grounded, young man.
>
>
> * * *
> Matt Macchiarolo
> www.townpeddler.com
> www.wolverine4wd.org
> http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
>
>
>
>
09-29-2003, 10:45 PM
#40
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: tow vehicle suggestions
While not germaine to the original question, do you have any idea WHY
the tow rating is degraded with the manual tranny? Same engine, same
brakes, same running gear, but 3000# lower towing limit. I could
never figure that one out. The MJ with the heavy duty package was
rated 7000# and the only difference was a D44 rearend and (probably)
larger brakes. As a practical matter, towing with a 5-spd makes for
an interesting clutch manipulation breaking free a heavy load but why
the difference in ratings limit?
BTW, with a decent hitch and pintle hookup I had no problems pulling
4-5 ton hay trailers all over the farm last summer but that was
usually 4-LO and maybe 5mph max <g>. Not dumb enough (yet) to try
that on pavement.
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:25:57 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> Just a thought.
>
> The Cherokee automatic is rated for 5000 lb towing, the 5 speed is only
> rated for the 2000 lb according to my Cherokee owners manual.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> "E.L. Lambert" wrote:
> >
> > i am in the market for a vehicle that will see dual use as a daily
> > driver (40 freeway miles per day) and also for towing my jeep to the
> > trail.
> >
> > i am trying to decide what kind of vehicle to get and i would like to
> > hear what others have to say on this. i need more a people hauler and
> > not a work vehicle so i have ruled out large pickups such as the
> > f-250. i also don't want to break the bank so i have ruled out high
> > end SUVs such as the hummer and escalade.
> >
> > that leaves two options: 1. midsize SUVs such as the GMC Jimmy (sorry
> > cherokee fans - DCs website says you can only tow 2000 pounds, and i
> > figure a loaded trail jeep + full trailer is at least 5 or 6 thousand
> > pounds, which the jimmy can manage, just barely) or 2. heavy sedans
> > such as the cadillac seville, lincoln towncar, or mercedes e500.
> >
> > anyone want to share their experiences with tow vehicles?
--
Will Honea
the tow rating is degraded with the manual tranny? Same engine, same
brakes, same running gear, but 3000# lower towing limit. I could
never figure that one out. The MJ with the heavy duty package was
rated 7000# and the only difference was a D44 rearend and (probably)
larger brakes. As a practical matter, towing with a 5-spd makes for
an interesting clutch manipulation breaking free a heavy load but why
the difference in ratings limit?
BTW, with a decent hitch and pintle hookup I had no problems pulling
4-5 ton hay trailers all over the farm last summer but that was
usually 4-LO and maybe 5mph max <g>. Not dumb enough (yet) to try
that on pavement.
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:25:57 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> Just a thought.
>
> The Cherokee automatic is rated for 5000 lb towing, the 5 speed is only
> rated for the 2000 lb according to my Cherokee owners manual.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> "E.L. Lambert" wrote:
> >
> > i am in the market for a vehicle that will see dual use as a daily
> > driver (40 freeway miles per day) and also for towing my jeep to the
> > trail.
> >
> > i am trying to decide what kind of vehicle to get and i would like to
> > hear what others have to say on this. i need more a people hauler and
> > not a work vehicle so i have ruled out large pickups such as the
> > f-250. i also don't want to break the bank so i have ruled out high
> > end SUVs such as the hummer and escalade.
> >
> > that leaves two options: 1. midsize SUVs such as the GMC Jimmy (sorry
> > cherokee fans - DCs website says you can only tow 2000 pounds, and i
> > figure a loaded trail jeep + full trailer is at least 5 or 6 thousand
> > pounds, which the jimmy can manage, just barely) or 2. heavy sedans
> > such as the cadillac seville, lincoln towncar, or mercedes e500.
> >
> > anyone want to share their experiences with tow vehicles?
--
Will Honea